MD vs. DO thread-- Final Resting Place

[scpod]

Yes, this is the new home for MD vs DO threads that have run their course. If you find your MD vs DO thread here, then it has finally been put out of its misery. Let me remind you of what our humble leader Lee said in his sticky:

"As long as there have been DOs, there has been an ongoing MD vs. DO debate. If you are a premed or medical student, you need to know this:

As a physician you and your colleagues will be too busy to care about where you went to medical school.
Most physicians judge each-other by the quality of their work and physician and patient feedback.
Most patients come to you based on patient recommendations and physician referrals.
Your residency and fellowship training are more important than where you went to medical school.
If you're smart and work hard, you will be a good physician. If you're lazy and don't make an effort, you'll be doing a disservice to your patients. I've seen plenty of MDs and DOs that are excellent docs and plenty who are downright scary.
Whatever you feel about MDs or DOs, bashing each other is not going to solve any issues.

MD vs. DO flame-wars are not tolerated at SDN. It is OK to discuss the differences and benefits of each degree. However, personal attacks and "trolling" are not appropriate."

With this in mind, we have developed a special place to "collect" all the threads in one convenient location. There is an incredible amount of material available both here and through other sources on the internet if you wish to research the merits of either degree. A simple search will locate tons of threads that have discussed these degrees ad nauseum. The AOA and AACOMAS both have great sites with tons of information and lots of links for you to follow..

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[theNEWgirl]

which of the two school would you rather be in

School A
DO program
in state, 1 hr from home
$36,000 tuition
expensive cost of living
small ugly school (architecturally)
diverse student body

School B
MD program
out of state, midwest
$44,000 tuition
cheap cost of living
large beautiful school (architecturally)
not so diverse student body

 

[Phlame217]

You think too asthetically

Look at things like residency programs, board percentages, how you feel at each school, class sizes, etc....

broaded your scope!

 

[theNEWgirl]

I think I'm hung up between MONEY and MD/DO debate again
even though a lot of you are going to say there's no difference between MD and DO

 

[JaggerPlate]

Sounds like you're pretty set in your decision already ...

 

[theNEWgirl]

Sounds like you're pretty set in your decision already ...

not really, i'm really torn between this
I would very much like to stay where I am right now, but passing up a good yet expensive good MD school in the midwest is ...

 

[theNEWgirl]

but that 8,000 dollars difference per year, that's 32,000 dollars difference

 

[theNEWgirl]

not to mention being far from friends and family

 

[Phlame217]

honestly, by your attitude that i pick up, your choice has been made.

 

[theNEWgirl]

honestly, by your attitude that i pick up, your choice has been made.

but that MD degree open more doors (you have to admit it) both home and abroad

 

[theNEWgirl]

but that MD degree open more doors (you have to admit it) both home and abroad

but keeping debt low is also important, my primary care physician is paying off her 400,000 debt

 

[DancerDoc777]

but keeping debt low is also important, my primary care physician is paying off her 400,000 debt

For me, personally I would choose the DO 'school A' because I would rather be closer to my family. That is a huge factor in my decisions, which is why I only applied to the five closest medical schools. Well, that's not the only reason, but it's a big one. It's just great to have that support during med school, especially considering how much I was encouraged by them in undergrad alone and med school's going to be even more insane. Just think, in the drop of a hat, they could stop by in an emergency (slim chance but still), a home-cooked meal is actually a possibility, and just the psychological knowing that they are close is reassuring. Additionally, the price of tuition is looking much better in comparison. Plus, if diversity is important to you, then that is a great thing to consider.

If you're hung up on the idea of becoming a DO then you should hang out some more in this forum, research DO sites, and realize that you are going to be a DR. no matter what and your patients probably won't even read your credentials or care.

 

[JaggerPlate]

not really, i'm really torn between this
I would very much like to stay where I am right now, but passing up a good yet expensive good MD school in the midwest is ...

Yeah I didn't mean to judge you so quickly ... it just seemed to me that you were leaning more towards the MD for whatever your reasons may be (holding more weight 'abroad' errr whatever).

However, I think it would be foolish to dismiss a program that is cheaper, located near your home (and where you want to be), just because its a DO and not an MD. Not that I'm saying that is what you are doing ... just make sure you don't go somewhere you don't want to just bc it's an MD not a DO.

 

[theNEWgirl]

For me, personally I would choose the DO 'school A' because I would rather be closer to my family. That is a huge factor in my decisions, which is why I only applied to the five closest medical schools. Well, that's not the only reason, but it's a big one. It's just great to have that support during med school, especially considering how much I was encouraged by them in undergrad alone and med school's going to be even more insane. Just think, in the drop of a hat, they could stop by in an emergency (slim chance but still), a home-cooked meal is actually a possibility, and just the psychological knowing that they are close is reassuring. Additionally, the price of tuition is looking much better in comparison. Plus, if diversity is important to you, then that is a great thing to consider.

If you're hung up on the idea of becoming a DO then you should hang out some more in this forum, research DO sites, and realize that you are going to be a DR. no matter what and your patients probably won't even read your credentials or care.

thanks, somehow that really knock some senses into me

 

[theNEWgirl]

Yeah I didn't mean to judge you so quickly ... it just seemed to me that you were leaning more towards the MD for whatever your reasons may be (holding more weight 'abroad' errr whatever).

However, I think it would be foolish to dismiss a program that is cheaper, located near your home (and where you want to be), just because its a DO and not an MD. Not that I'm saying that is what you are doing ... just make sure you don't go somewhere you don't want to just bc it's an MD not a DO.

you're right, i guess i was still torn between MD/DO program, but in the end, i don't really think it matters much

then again, you know when you work so hard all 4 years as an undergrad to get to a med school, you naturally tend to choose a prestigious school despite the money just to validate your hardwork

but i guess it just all comes down to the fact that you'll a physician either way, just with more debt or less

 

[DangQ3]

I think if you are even thinking about the MD/DO issue, I think you should choose MD. There's a bigger chance to regret going to a DO school than going to an MD school if you're debating it now. I don't think debt, location, or anything else is that big a deal, but that's just me.

 

[digitlnoize]

Debt is a HUGE factor to consider. If you talk to most doctors they will tell you that if they had to do it over again, they would pick the cheapest school possible.

That says alot to me. Not that I am doing that, but still, money factors heavily into my equation.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

Do you know what kind of medicine you want to practice?

 

[Rikkye]

...

 

[theNEWgirl]

Do you know what kind of medicine you want to practice?

ob/gyn and open my own practice
or
do emergency medicine

 

[TexasTriathlete]

With either of those, being a DO puts you at absolutely no disadvantage. DO schools are primary care factories (e.g., OB/GYN), and probably 1/4 of the docs at the ER where I do my volunteer work are DO's, and I'm talking about the central texas regional trauma center. Either field can be done easily at either school. Pick the school you like best.

 

[HillMill]

I would strongly disagree that there is a bigger chance to regret going to a DO school. There really is really no evidence to support that statement. The chances of failing are the same regardless of what school you are at. You will be the type of doctor you want to be regardless of the institution. For example, I worked with a Urologist for a year who went to medical school in Mexico and he is by far the best physician I have ever worked with.

 

[Darktide]

they mean regret a DO degree... the two little letters...

The Only place that I have seen a Stigma, is in a city about 2 hrs west of Detroit... For some reason DO's were strangely ostracized, But only by the MD's who for whatever reason were being elitist children...

The thing is, how far you go depends on only one thing---YOU. Which two letters after your name mean VERY little if your desire to do something is huge.
The stigma is all in your mind--- go to the place that you feel will educate you better, don't worry about the aesthetics of the building, how expensive cheetoes are in the vending machine, etc.

 

[HillMill]

Well said Darktide... although I disagree again. The price of cheetos is very important.

 

[BananaMonkey]

Hi all,

I, like many of you, am in the midst of the rat race that is applying to medical school. I applied to a ton of MD schools, and about 6 DO schools. My first interview is at Western (i'm really excited) and in preparation, I've beent hinking about DO vs. MD. I'm starting to think my personal philosophy is more in line with DO. However, I can't seem to ignore the fact that MD still gets more notice, and in some circles, more respect (since the majority of the US population recognizes MD as doctor and DO as "Doh!").

So I'm just probing your brains. FOr those of you who are seeking DO exclusively as opposed to MD, or for those of you in DO schools, what are your thoughts? Upon graduation with a DO degree, do you plan to stay "DO" rather than apply for MD residencies, which I hear are much harder for DO people to get?

I'm just probing brains. Not in the alien way, just throught-provoking way. Any thoughts and feedback would be appreciated.

Best of luck to everyone.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I am applying to both, and I don't care which one I get. I am smart enough to get the residency I want from either school.

 

[IUgrad]

I am applying to both, and I don't care which one I get.

Ditto. I'm planning on picking the best school for me, regardless of the degree.

 

[DangQ3]

We can call sit here and say MD and DO are essentially the same and that being a DO doesn't limit you or that success depends on you. But when the OP feels that going to an MD school validates her hard work, that says something. Being happy with your degree if far more important than anything else.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

As pre-meds, our perspective on the subject is a lot different than it will be once we get done with med school. We will work with MDs and DOs, and at that point, we will all be plenty happy with our education.

Nobody is going to graduate from DO school and think they got short-changed.

 

[EEL08]

I'm applying only DO. Just in case anyone was wondering I decided this well before I took the MCAT and bombed. My husband actually matriculated at an allopathic school in the 90's. That's where he first learned about osteopathic medicine and said that the osteopathic students he knew were much more laid back and not as gunner-ish. We feel that DO schools are more open to nontraditionals and in general just feel that DO schools would fit us and our situation better.

 

[J1515]

But when the OP feels that going to an MD school validates her hard work, that says something. Being happy with your degree if far more important than anything else.

Wrong. Being a competent physician, having your patients like you, and saving lives are the most important things. The letters after your name or how you view yourself compared to others is all secondary.

 

[PatriotsForever]

Debt is a HUGE factor to consider. If you talk to most doctors they will tell you that if they had to do it over again, they would pick the cheapest school possible.

That says alot to me. Not that I am doing that, but still, money factors heavily into my equation.

I agree strongly with this, money is a HUGE factor! Just cause I can take loans for a school that is $44,000/year does not mean it is gravy to me and should not be for anyone else! Every doctor I shadowed and have any kind of relationship with all say the same thing .... choose the cheapest school! This makes sense, you will be at a school for a maximum of 4 years but your debt will be with you much longer than that! No matter what school you go to, you will be a doctor but hopefully you will have minimized the amount of money you will have to pay back. Now as far as the MD/DO thing, that is gravy....

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I would say that the most important thing is being happy with yourself and the decisions you've made. If you need the validation of specific letters behind your name, then by all means go for it.

Agreed.

 

[PatriotsForever]

Don't get caught up in that MD hype, it will ruin you. If your trying to be a doctor for only respect you may want to reevaluate your career plan. Do what works for you and who cares what others think!

 

[DangQ3]

Although the tuition of the DO school is low compared to the MD school, its cost of living is very high. That should offset part of the debt concern.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

MD's get a great education. The only thing is, if you go to a school just because it awards the MD degree, even if you like another place better, you are probably not going to do as well.

At a DO school, you get the same education. Go where you feel the most comfortable.

I will probably end up at DO school, if for no other reason, because they move faster. One of the MD schools I applied to just sent me an e-mail telling me that my application is "now complete, and in line to be reviewed". I sent them all my application materials about 2 months ago. If these guys decide to interview me, it might not be until the spring. At that point, I may not even be interested. I'm looking forward to getting this all over with.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Think about it this way .... no matter which route you choose, at the end of the day (day = four years + residency) you are a DOCTOR. And that should be all that matters. I understand that an MD may be more respectable err whatever (actually I don't understand, but I'm playing civil bc the OP seems real), but honestly ... you are a doctor; bottom line. There are also many reasons to pick DO over MD in my opinion:

- Location (if you don't get an MD school where you want to live)
- OMM
- AOA residencies
- being a part of an expanding field that is projected to become 20% of the praciticing physicians in the US in like 2015ish
- lower costs (in certain cases)
- but basically ... it gives you the chance to be a doctor, and if that is what you really want; don't sweat the letters behind your name coming up at a cocktail party!!

 

[hermit]

Unless you want to have these conversations for the rest of your life, go MD.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Unless you want to have these conversations for the rest of your life, go MD.

With who ... pre-meds when you are 45???


The DO vs MD thing doesn't make a difference in the real world, like honestly you are a doctor, people are going to know that, and it really doesn't make a bit of difference DO vs MD when you are a physician in the REAL world.

 

[umean2tellme]

I personally prefer DO b/c it's MD + OMM, and having an extra tool for treating your patients can only be helpful. I think the philosophy is great, but honestly the type of person I am now regardless of my degree I will still treat everyone "osteopathically," if that's even a word lol.

 

[Nasem]

I don't care if I earn an MD or DO... I'll be applying to both schools and my most important criterias will be as follows
1) in-state (prefer schools with a lot of clinical connections)
2) tuition

As far as "repest" and all that "MD" hype goes, I am not buying it.... Sure sometimes people might think an MD is "more respected" than a DO but I think thats a load of crap.... if you are a good doctor people WILL pay you respect, if your a sh**** doctor, no one will respect you regardless of what degree you have.

When you earn your MD or DO degree, work your ass off during your internship / residency years, and be the best doctor you can be, I guarantee, people WILL respect you

oh and I forgot to mention, I am mostly focused on primary care (Internal medicine all the way), so I think DOs get pretty good matchlists for IM

 

[Little Etoile]

Okay guys... I feel like I'm having a mid-application crisis and although I'm sure this forum gets a bajillion posts like this, I'm really hoping that you can help me.

I applied to MD schools exclusively. From what I know about DO schools (which isn't *too* much) and given my lifelong interest and involvement with CAM, holistic health, mind/body medicine, etc., in my heart I feel like I would be much happier at DO schools.

Unfortunately, after hearing one too many derogatory comments about DOs and their schools (e.g. "All you need is enough money in your bank account and they'll let you in. I would NEVER want a DO as my physician! How frightening!") I decided to go the MD route. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life defending my credentials and felt that if I really wanted to make a change in the health care system, I had enough up against me already and didn't want any room for people to question my abilities.

But suddenly I'm feeling like I made a mistake, especially after reading the discussion in the allopathic and osteopathic poll thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=434682) which seemed to dispute a lot of the stereotypes of DOs and the profession. (Special thanks to BTH7 for all of the wonderful insight and links!) I foolishly chose Berkeley as my undergrad based on prestige, even though I knew I would be happier at a smaller school I was accepted at, and I ended up being absolutely miserable. I really don't want to make that mistake again.

So here's where you come in:

1) Is it too late to apply to DO schools this cycle?
2) I'm working on getting over the ego thing (;D), but I'm still worried that I won't have the same career opportunities with a DO, especially since I want to work internationally in global health. Can someone *please* just make sense of all of this for me? Am I crazy? Is there really no prejudice against DOs once you get out in the field?
3) Where do I find out more info on specific osteopathic schools, particularly which are the best to attend?

I'm just.... you guys, I'm just really paralyzed. I feel like either way I may be about to make a HUGE mistake and I don't know where to begin to find the answers.

Thank you in advance for all of the help and I apologize once more for bringing this tired topic up yet again. ;P

 

[J1515]

I would say that the most important thing is being happy with yourself and the decisions you've made. If you need the validation of specific letters behind your name, then by all means go for it.

We are supposedly going into medicine because it will make us happy. Correct? What aspect of medicine makes you happy? What do you say on interviews? To me, and not to sound cliche, but the thought of saving lives and being able to comfort a patient who is worried sick about their condition should be #1 on your list of things that make you happy. That's my ultimate goal and that's why you're entering the field in the first place. If respect and prestige is your #1 factor that makes you happy, then that's a different story and certainly provides a valuable argument for not attending a DO school. If you are choosing between an MD school and DO school that is fairly close in tuition and have want to go into radiology or dermatology, then perhaps you will have an advantage at an MD school (although you do miss out on the osteopathic residencies that are only open to DOs). However, if you want to go into general surgery, internal medicine, pediatrics, etc, and you are having trouble deciding between a DO school that is in your hometown where your family and friends live verses an MD school that is 5000 miles away in a third world country, then yes - I will question your motivations for going into medicine and what truly makes you happy. Let's face it, there is nothing wrong with saying respect and prestige is your deciding factor on an anonymous forum but don't beat around the bush - come out and say it.

 

[phluidradiation]

Well first off stop and breathe! Really, if you want to be a physician, you can't really go wrong either way (DO or MD). Both will lead you into a rewarding profession that will essentially let you do the same thing (with some minor exceptions) and get into as much complementary medicine as you'd like.

1. It all depends. The amount of time to verify is similar to aamc. So it'll be at least a month before it's verified and sent out. I did notice that DO schools tend to send out secondaries and interview invites a little faster, but that's not an iron-clad guarantee. I know there are people in my class who submitted secondaries in the spring and still got in. So you've always got a shot. Earlier is better, but I don't think it would hurt you too much since it is still october.

2. Prejudice is still everywhere. Regardless of your background/education/ ethnicity you'll still experience some silent prejudice. But what matters is how your choose to approach it. If you are confident in your abilities and education- it'll show. From every medical professional I have ever known, once you are out working the rounds, it really doesn't matter what your degree is. I think that's been pushed heavily in these forums. most of the ill-will comes from those who just don't know what DO means. You don't have to explain it to everybody, but expect to to some extent.

3. Unfortunately, there is no magical list (yet) that tells you where to apply. The best school is the one that suits you. Look through the forums- there are threads on every school. But don't limit yourself to those opinions. Look through the www.aacom.org site and read up on the differences between schools. Location, duration, history, etc. are jsut some of the factors you should consider. Apply broadly and really you should be fine regardless of where you go, especially since most DO schools have the small school atmosphere that you like.
Relax and if you can go for it! Nothing wrong in reapplying next year if need be. Good luck!

 

[medicman]

I know this has been a hot and debated topic in this forum, but on the topic of DO verses MD, I still don't know what to do.

On the surface I like the sound of DO. I like the more "holistic" idea of medicine and the idea of treating the "whole patient". I am not sure about the OMT stuff, but I imagine it is kind of like chiropractic stuff and I know first hand that works.

The problem is, with every post I read about becoming a DO, there is always a bunch of people who seem to have the attitude of DO's are not real doctors. Now before anyone posts the "DO's are real doctors" speech again, HEAR WHAT I AM SAYING.

I know that DO's are licensed to perform all aspects of medicine. The problem is it seems that becoming a DO is a looked down upon profession of being a doctor. I know legally they are the same, but what about in practice. Are MD's favored in residency programs over DO's? After school, are there states that won't allow DO's? Even better, if I become a DO over an MD, will I spend the remainder of my career convincing hospitals, nurses, doctors, and patients that I am a real doctor?

It seems that just about 90% of everyone who goes to DO school and is a DO did so because they couldn't get in to an MD school. I even called a couple of DO's in practice to meet with them and shadow. They all told me that they became DO because they couldn't get into MD and they don't even use the OMT stuff.

I don't mean to offend or step on any toes. My journey through this is going to be long and difficult for me anyway. I am asking my wife to allow me to turn our life inside out and move who knows where for first med school and then residency. That being said, at the end of it I don't want to have to go around like a medical pinocchio saying, "but I am a real doctor!" I really want to do family practice and I like the mentality that the DO websites provide, but I can put that mentality to MD training if I have to. There are several reasons in addition to the philosophy that I want to become a DO, difficulty of getting in to an MD program being one of them. Its going to be a lot of hard work for me to get to a position to get ready for ANY version of med school and I would rather bite the bullit now than later. While I am in this for the long haul and prepared to do what is needed, I would like the path of least resistance so to speak. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Altesse]

I think you can be happy at an MD school just the same if you pick the right school. Personally, my favorite physician is a DO. She is very qualified and is on faculty at a top state school. SO, I don't think you need to worry about stigma if you stay in the US. The truth is if you know your stuff, DO or MD no one can argue that you are great.
However, my favorite physician who is a DO recommended that I do an MD program mainly because she thinks you have to prove yourself all the time when you are a DO even though you are just as good. She also mentioned that DO schools are more expensive.

Finally, my personal reason for wanting to go MD is because I am interested in having a global health career and many countries don't recognize DO or do set limitations to their practice such as manipulations only. There is a thread in pre-osteopathic that has a list of the different countries and practice rights.

Ultimately, only you can make the decision of DO or MD. Also, keep in mind that many DO schools have later deadline so you can still get your application in. If your numbers look great, I think you still have a chance at a DO school this year.

 

[Tanner82]

all of the answers I've gotten from MD's and DO's alike is that:

(1) there is virtually no difference in most cases
(2) there is no stigma or inadequecies associated with the DO title (simply good do's, bad do's, good md's, bad md's) between practicing physicians (except for some old school mds who will be retired by the time it affects you anyway)
(3) there is some ignorance with respect to the general public and even some nurses ect.
(4) The people who think negatively about DO's and look down on the are pre-meds (which we all can admit is not saying very much

Inevitably all of this stuff has been repeated over and over again on these boards. It seems that around this time of year we get all these allopathic rejects freaking out about not getting any interviews and questioning the osteopathic profession as a saftey net. This may or may not be the case for the OP... many people sincerely just don't know much about it. Ultimately if you have any doubts about it why put 200K+ into it?

 

[Little Etoile]

Well first off stop and breathe! Really, if you want to be a physician, you can't really go wrong either way (DO or MD). Both will lead you into a rewarding profession that will essentially let you do the same thing (with some minor exceptions) and get into as much complementary medicine as you'd like.

I'm sure that going to an MD school will provide me with opportunities to get into integrative medicine, but I'm worried that it a) won't provide me with as strong of a foundation as going to a DO school would and b) I won't be as happy. There's something to be said about being surrounded by colleagues who support your ideas and are headed in the same direction.
I'm concerned that if I go to an MD school I'll feel as isolated and out of place as I did at Berkeley. I really had to carve my own way and struggle to pursue my interest in psychoneuroimmunoendocrinolgy and the mind-body connection. I would much rather be in an educational environment that actually *supported* and incorporated this into their curriculum rather than leaving me to grasp at straws on my own. As much as self-sufficiency is a vital skill, little to no support is not a great way to prepare for a career.

Thanks for the help though, for sure. I greatly appreciate it. I'm not as panicked as this post probably comes across, I'm just really unsure at this point and am feeling the time (and financial!) crunch. I just want to ensure that I make a decision that makes me the happiest both short and long term. Not too tall of an order, right?

 

[CrazyLikeAFox]

psychoneuroimmunoendocrinology



my major only had 4 syllables.

 

[Jack Daniel]

...(Special thanks to BTH7 for all of the wonderful insight and links!) ...

I'm glad you brought this up--he deserves much more recognition for his work in updating the various wikipedia pages. I'm sure others have helped, but I know he spear-headed a lot of the work.