MD vs DO

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tennisfan

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Hey guys,

I've been reading some of the threads, and it seems like a lot of premed students consider a DO degree inferior to an MD degree. It appears that they would prefer to apply/attend an MD school over a DO school. I'm just curious, what is the rational behind this? I mean aren't they the same for all practical purposes? At the end of the day, both of them are doctors who can perform surgery and prescribe meds. Are there any advantages in an MD program over a DO program or is it just prestige?

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Not another MD vs DO thread.

Basically it comes down to this... if you have the stats and can go to an MD school... by all means go.

If you are considering a competitive speciality, an MD will be more helpful than a DO.

If you live in a geographic region where there aren't many DOs, you may face a bias. For example, MGH in Boston has only 12 DOs on staff out of over 2000 doctors. But, in PA, which has PCOM, there are a ton of DOs at the local hospitals.

If you have a very strong desire to do research or pursue an MD/PhD a MD would be helpful (not many DO/PhD programs out there).

If you are like me, I have a strong geographic preference and would go to a DO school in a preferred area over an MD school in a less preferred area. I also want to do general peds, so it won't really matter much. Lots of primary care residency spots go unfilled so its not too hard for DOs to match in primary care.

Finally, while pre-meds may consider DO inferior to MD... in the real world no one has time to worry about this. You will find at least one DO on staff at every top hospital in the country. A good doctor is a good doctor. A DO is a means to an end (becoming a physician).... not an end in itself.
 
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Hey guys,

I've been reading some of the threads, and it seems like a lot of premed students consider a DO degree inferior to an MD degree. It appears that they would prefer to apply/attend an MD school over a DO school. I'm just curious, what is the rational behind this? I mean aren't they the same for all practical purposes? At the end of the day, both of them are doctors who can perform surgery and prescribe meds. Are there any advantages in an MD program over a DO program or is it just prestige?

Pretty much the fact that we have engrained in us since we are children that MD=Doctor.

I will admit the first time I heard of osteopathic medicine I thought it was more along the line of what naturopathy is, this despite having worked in a hospital for 6 years. Why, very few people look at initials.

After doing my own research I have come to believe that if you are getting into medicine to be a clinical provider (not heavy research/academics) and for the right reasons, a DO=MD and the initials are the last thing to take into consideration when deciding on a school.
 
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"Not another MD vs DO thread."

LOL.. Sorry, didn't mean to, just curious about the differences.
 
The search function will provide you with oodles of information regarding this topic!
 
I'd argue that on the non-trad forum it's VERY unlikely that it will get that much attention. I don't see this going on for more than a page or two.

And now the thread should be closed. I see the writing on the wall...another 145 page MD vs DO thread.
 
I'd argue that on the non-trad forum it's VERY unlikely that it will get that much attention. I don't see this going on for more than a page or two.

I don't care very much for myself, and I know that it won't matter as far as the career goes - its all about where the residency is done anyway. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining - Yes, I'm a doctor, yes, I am a medical doctor, just not a Medical Doctor. No, a DO is not like a doctor of philosophy......

I had enough of these discussions just when I was considering applying to an osteopathic school. When I heard second hand that I was going to be a Physician's Assistant, I had enough. I don't want to deal with it. I know that DO's are just as good as MD's and I know that MOST people know it, I just don't like dealing with the minority.
 
I don't care very much for myself, and I know that it won't matter as far as the career goes - its all about where the residency is done anyway. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining - Yes, I'm a doctor, yes, I am a medical doctor, just not a Medical Doctor. No, a DO is not like a doctor of philosophy......

I had enough of these discussions just when I was considering applying to an osteopathic school. When I heard second hand that I was going to be a Physician's Assistant, I had enough. I don't want to deal with it. I know that DO's are just as good as MD's and I know that MOST people know it, I just don't like dealing with the minority.



And for that I don't blame you
 
Hey guys,

I've been reading some of the threads, and it seems like a lot of premed students consider a DO degree inferior to an MD degree. It appears that they would prefer to apply/attend an MD school over a DO school. I'm just curious, what is the rational behind this? I mean aren't they the same for all practical purposes? At the end of the day, both of them are doctors who can perform surgery and prescribe meds. Are there any advantages in an MD program over a DO program or is it just prestige?
Personally, I wouldn't care, but others do care. You may face discrimination. If you didn't, I'd consider DO because you learn the same stuff plus OMM. And if you learn it and don't like it, you just never use again.
 
I've worked with a ton of DOs. I have NEVER had anyone within the medical setting ask "what is a DO?" I worked in pediatric oncology though. So patients knew what beforehand that they were going to see the oncologist. Never did parents or kids ask... "I thought you were a doctor, but your coat says, DO."

You might have to explain it to the general public. But, patients know that they are going to see the doctor and often times research the doctor beforehand. I know I have done extensive research on any physician I have ever seen in my life (EXCEPT ER docs... unfortunately there you don't have much say).

I don't care very much for myself, and I know that it won't matter as far as the career goes - its all about where the residency is done anyway. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining - Yes, I'm a doctor, yes, I am a medical doctor, just not a Medical Doctor. No, a DO is not like a doctor of philosophy......
 
Hey guys,

I've been reading some of the threads, and it seems like a lot of premed students consider a DO degree inferior to an MD degree. It appears that they would prefer to apply/attend an MD school over a DO school. I'm just curious, what is the rational behind this? I mean aren't they the same for all practical purposes? At the end of the day, both of them are doctors who can perform surgery and prescribe meds. Are there any advantages in an MD program over a DO program or is it just prestige?

The others have covered this but as I wrestled hard with it, I feel compelled to at least relate to you decision making process.

First the obvious. No one cares too much about where you went to medical school when you're doing the thing. Taking care of patients. The residency is probably more representative of your quality of training. But even that is problematic.

Essentially your in the realm of human perception. Prestige can be an advantage in itself. But there are other advantages conferred by this or that particular institution. Some pertaining to the localization of connection networks. Or otherwise. A myriad of small factors that probably won't factor enough weight into most people's decision process.

But also when evaluating a medical school to decide on the expense of applying there you need to think about 3rd and 4th year curriculum structure. You should know if they have their own teaching hospital. I see this a necessity. Maybe others don't. But for me this ruled out many of the DO school that also fit my geographic constraints.

Secondly the costs. A private school with a small endowment and a tuition heavy cost balance sheet is going to be uber-expensive. For me I have to evaluate costs based on a career in family medicine of peds. Because you never now how well you're going to cut it. (despite the fact that peds interests me)

Thirdly you have to evaluate you're own competitiveness in conjunction with the process of placing the right bets with the monies you have to do it. By the time I got done applying to all of the Allopathic primaries I wanted to I had only enough to fill out some 2ndaries or start my DO primaries. I chose the former even with a weak hand. Working with alternative next cycle contingencies in my head, I reconciled myself to forgoing DO applications and have not had to look back.

You will notice. I haven't mentioned institutional philosophy. I find the notion of Osteopathic distinction along cultural or philosophical lines to be spurious. This slanted my decision to go with a weak hand into the allopathic app season. Simply because I have no answer to the cultural police who patrol the application process in Osteopathic circles. Interestingly, a small and obstinate minority in the spectrum of Osteopathic views of itself.

The school which I am attending has a culture and history I am enthusiastic about. The reason I relate that is because I believe my success last season despite bad numbers was entirely related to my ability to communicate the possibility of a strong connection to a place and a school.

How you approach this should be unique to you. That's why I gave you the gory detail. Boring as it is. So you can see an example of a decision process to connect or counteract your own premises with.

Good luck.
 
For a lot of non-trads it is likely to come down to "geographic constraint." For me, I want to be on the west coast and I'm a much more competitive applicant for the DO schools on the west coast than the UC system. While I most likely could get into an MD program on the east coast, I would rather go to a DO school on the west coast.

I agree with most of what the poster below wrote EXCEPT tuition. The tuition of many MD programs (Tufts/BU) is more than most DO programs. Of course, your local state school is likely to be cheaper.

Of course, if money is a constraint when applying, choose schools wisely.

But also when evaluating a medical school to decide on the expense of applying there you need to think about 3rd and 4th year curriculum structure. You should know if they have their own teaching hospital. I see this a necessity. Maybe others don't. But for me this ruled out many of the DO school that also fit my geographic constraints.
 
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Nasrudin politely explained and insinuated certain aspects of DO vs MD. I will be a bit more blunt. The number one reason for going MD rather than DO is residency. You will hear people saying MD=DO, no one cares, etc, etc. Sure, that is true. However, there is a logical error in those arguments - they all assume that you are a practicing doctor. Instead, the approach should be rather different: you should be more concerned about your road to becoming a doctor rather than once you start practicing. As such, no matter who says what, getting certain residencies as a DO can be very challenging. Can it still be done? Sure. But so can your average Joe become an Olympian. The question you need to ask yourself is "what are my goals?" If you want to be an internist or go into another less competitive field, if you're not that interested in academic medicine, if you actually believe in OMM, if you are not that competitive for MD, if you will not be insulted when you are questioned about your title, then a DO is a wise choice. That is a lot of ifs, but there are cases where a DO can be a better choice than MD. It also finally comes down to price: if you're paying $200K for something, you want to make sure you get everything you want, even if there is no consensus on certain things. It's like buying synthetic oil: if both cans cost $5, but one of them has some disputed impurities, you might as well pay for the "better" can, regardless whether it is or is not any better. You certainly don't know whether it is or it is not better.

Since it is still so difficult to have a normal conversation about MD vs DO on a medical board without someone commencing an altercation or saying "not another MD vs DO," you should get another clue about the state of the affairs. Furthermore, if you post this thread in the DO forum, you will get your ass kicked. Been there, done that. That was the only thread I had to close, put one of the DO members on my ignore list because he/she was so rude, and contemplate deleting the thread, but I didn't because it was the embodiment of some of the tacit issues present in that field. That was the last time I truly considered DO. Maybe in the future I might change my mind, depending on my goals, but even if DOs had the same opportunities as MDs, I would still not want to be part of a community where there is so much acrimony. I mean who cares if some guy asks some questions about your degree? Maybe he's ignoramus. Is it really worth getting all bent out of shape because of it? There is a psychological reason for this and I will not go there, not even in this subforum.

One last consideration: the number of graduating MD students is increasing every year. The number of MD residency spots remains stagnant. The result? DOs, FMGs, and IMGs are finding themselves competing more and more with MDs for those MD residency spots. What ends up happening is that they get shoved into the primary care fields more and more and I think that with time MD residency spots will be limited only to MDs because there simply might not be enough spots even for AMG (American Medical Graduate) MDs. I can already sense the discontent because I read the other day how MDs want AOA to open up DO residency spots to MD students since while DOs are able to apply to MD spots, MD graduates cannot apply to DO residency spots. Anyway, it's one big mess and we'll see what the future brings.

On the positive side, I do agree that once you are a doctor, DO pretty much equals MD, barring some geographical locations where you might not be able to get a job easily. I will admit myself that the first time I ever heard of DOs was when I joined SDN. The public just doesn't know. This why when that article was published about a famous DO doc, on the cover they had called him "MD," I guess to avoid any misunderstanding from the public that this is actually a doctor. Many DOs were unhappy about that, of course.
 
Nasrudin politely explained and insinuated certain aspects of DO vs MD. I will be a bit more blunt. The number one reason for going MD rather than DO is residency. You will hear people saying MD=DO, no one cares, etc, etc. Sure, that is true. However, there is a logical error in those arguments - they all assume that you are a practicing doctor. Instead, the approach should be rather different: you should be more concerned about your road to becoming a doctor rather than once you start practicing. As such, no matter who says what, getting certain residencies as a DO can be very challenging. Can it still be done? Sure. But so can your average Joe become an Olympian. The question you need to ask yourself is "what are my goals?" If you want to be an internist or go into another less competitive field, if you're not that interested in academic medicine, if you actually believe in OMM, if you are not that competitive for MD, if you will not be insulted when you are questioned about your title, then a DO is a wise choice. That is a lot of ifs, but there are cases where a DO can be a better choice than MD. It also finally comes down to price: if you're paying $200K for something, you want to make sure you get everything you want, even if there is no consensus on certain things. It's like buying synthetic oil: if both cans cost $5, but one of them has some disputed impurities, you might as well pay for the "better" can, regardless whether it is or is not any better. You certainly don't know whether it is or it is not better.

Since it is still so difficult to have a normal conversation about MD vs DO on a medical board without someone commencing an altercation or saying "not another MD vs DO," you should get another clue about the state of the affairs. Furthermore, if you post this thread in the DO forum, you will get your ass kicked. Been there, done that. That was the only thread I had to close, put one of the DO members on my ignore list because he/she was so rude, and contemplate deleting the thread, but I didn't because it was the embodiment of some of the tacit issues present in that field. That was the last time I truly considered DO. Maybe in the future I might change my mind, depending on my goals, but even if DOs had the same opportunities as MDs, I would still not want to be part of a community where there is so much acrimony. I mean who cares if some guy asks some questions about your degree? Maybe he's ignoramus. Is it really worth getting all bent out of shape because of it? There is a psychological reason for this and I will not go there, not even in this subforum.

One last consideration: the number of graduating MD students is increasing every year. The number of MD residency spots remains stagnant. The result? DOs, FMGs, and IMGs are finding themselves competing more and more with MDs for those MD residency spots. What ends up happening is that they get shoved into the primary care fields more and more and I think that with time MD residency spots will be limited only to MDs because there simply might not be enough spots even for AMG (American Medical Graduate) MDs. I can already sense the discontent because I read the other day how MDs want AOA to open up DO residency spots to MD students since while DOs are able to apply to MD spots, MD graduates cannot apply to DO residency spots. Anyway, it's one big mess and we'll see what the future brings.

On the positive side, I do agree that once you are a doctor, DO pretty much equals MD, barring some geographical locations where you might not be able to get a job easily. I will admit myself that the first time I ever heard of DOs was when I joined SDN. The public just doesn't know. This why when that article was published about a famous DO doc, on the cover they had called him "MD," I guess to avoid any misunderstanding from the public that this is actually a doctor. Many DOs were unhappy about that, of course.

Right. And I agree on the extra points of not wanting to expend extra psychic energy or being subsumed in that collective as a process. And the competition is going up.

I might slightly disagree on the small point of...certain PD's will always be open to top DO students. I certainly would in their position. So it might not ever get to a shut out level of competition. But that serves your other point. SDN DO advocation relies heavily on the premise that it is possible to do anything from anywhere with enough hard work. True. For Olympians of academe. For average Joe's like me. I'll need all the help I can get.

So removing the context of the struggle--with ever-increasing pressures of competition looming ominously--may make people more comfortable with their choices but does little to help you with yours. OP, keep this as mind as you go forward with this inquiry. Try not to step on too many toes. And gauge responses carefully.
 
May I ask a question? This is something I have been thinking about and I didn't want to start yet another thread (mainly lurking on here).

So would it be better to apply to Carribean MD schools vs. DO? (As far as residency). I am not sure what I will do...probably apply everywhere! I'll be 30/31 starting. Thanks!
 
May I ask a question? This is something I have been thinking about and I didn't want to start yet another thread (mainly lurking on here).

So would it be better to apply to Carribean MD schools vs. DO? (As far as residency). I am not sure what I will do...probably apply everywhere! I'll be 30/31 starting. Thanks!

This is my opinion on the matter.

DO>>>>>>>>>>>>MD, Carib.

Moving to another country. With the education bubble approaching the bursting point. With the competition for residency spots hitting a perfect storm. Venturing into high dollar piranha pools. With sketchy financing and scattered, half-hazard rotation sites. Is. Well. F'n dangerous.

But I'm cautious about these things. I'm sure opinions vary.
 
This comparison between the average Joe to an olympian is really unfair. The difference between MD and DO schools isn't really that jarring. A more appropriate comparison is between a state public school and an Ivy league.

Sure, there are many advantages and more opportunities to a graduate of an Ivy league college. And it doesn't come from the public perception of an Ivy league school, it comes from the connections made with the school. While going to Harvard for undergrad may help you get into Harvard Medical, it's pretty damn difficult to get into Harvard Medical in the first place.

Likewise, it is true that many DO 4th years will be at a small disadvantage in matching to derm or plastics at well-known institutionalist (compared to their MD colleagues). But the folks that match into these specialties were pretty much superstars during medical school, and it had 99% to do with how smart, talented, and hard-working they were in school than the name of the school or the initials in their degrees.

The important question when deciding a school is "will I be happy?"
 
This comparison between the average Joe to an olympian is really unfair. The difference between MD and DO schools isn't really that jarring. A more appropriate comparison is between a state public school and an Ivy league.

Sure, there are many advantages and more opportunities to a graduate of an Ivy league college. And it doesn't come from the public perception of an Ivy league school, it comes from the connections made with the school. While going to Harvard for undergrad may help you get into Harvard Medical, it's pretty damn difficult to get into Harvard Medical in the first place.

Likewise, it is true that many DO 4th years will be at a small disadvantage in matching to derm or plastics at well-known institutionalist (compared to their MD colleagues). But the folks that match into these specialties were pretty much superstars during medical school, and it had 99% to do with how smart, talented, and hard-working they were in school than the name of the school or the initials in their degrees.

The important question when deciding a school is "will I be happy?"

Well. I hear you. We exaggerated perhaps. And your question posed--"Will I be happy?"--is what it really comes down too.

Still. For the beginner. There is some calculus of happiness to be learned. And also as a constantly cautious prognosticator. The lack of development of post graduate DO training in combination with a tremendous ramping up of enrollment was quite bothersome to me as a would be Osteopathic applicant.

Maybe it's not all that bad. But as a guy whose struggled hard to overcome from a down position. (Although that is clearly not your characterization of the situation) I have nothing positive to say about the experience. And am all for doing less work than more. It's not as if medical school isn't a mountain of work just to get through it.
 
The odds of the average Joe becoming a pro athlete (not specifically an Olympian) are 24,550 to 1 (http://collegetimes.us/11-hardest-jobs-to-get-in-america/). The odds of become an Olympian are equally abysmal. This is a completely exaggerated comparison. The odds of getting a good residency as a DO are way better than 24,550 to 1.

I read this whole thread and it still follows the basics of my first post. If you have the opportunity to go to an MD school and doing a competitive residency is important to you, then by all means go.

I'm very interested in primary care (general pediatrics). I want to live on the west coast. My wife to be is an MD. I'll likely have an easier time getting into a DO school near her than an MD. DO schools are perfectly fine for primary care (and can be fine for other things).

I would not be happy at an MD school apart from her vs a DO school near her. Of course, this is MY story.

And for the person that asked above DO>>>>Caribbean MD. I know a few Caribbean MDs and that had to spend multiple cycles to match into a residency and then had to take what they could get. The one EXCEPTION is if you want to work in a country where Caribbean MDs are recognized and DOs are not (Spain is an example).

I don't disagree that the ramping up of enrollment at DOs schools without an increase in residencies is somewhat problematic. It also seems these schools are starting to pop-up quickly. HOWEVER, there are a lot of primary care positions that go unfilled every year. Realize that by going to DO school you might end up forced into primary care. It's great for a person like me who wants to do this (but not great if you are aiming for surgery or such).

Well. I hear you. We exaggerated perhaps. And your question posed--"Will I be happy?"--is what it really comes down too.

Still. For the beginner. There is some calculus of happiness to be learned. And also as a constantly cautious prognosticator. The lack of development of post graduate DO training in combination with a tremendous ramping up of enrollment was quite bothersome to me as a would be Osteopathic applicant.

Maybe it's not all that bad. But as a guy whose struggled hard to overcome from a down position. (Although that is clearly not your characterization of the situation) I have nothing positive to say about the experience. And am all for doing less work than more. It's not as if medical school isn't a mountain of work just to get through it.
 
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May I ask a question? This is something I have been thinking about and I didn't want to start yet another thread (mainly lurking on here).

So would it be better to apply to Carribean MD schools vs. DO? (As far as residency). I am not sure what I will do...probably apply everywhere! I'll be 30/31 starting. Thanks!

No. To some extent your decision has to turn on keeping doors to residency open. US allo MD has the easiest path to the most residencies. DO has it's own residencies, but has a more difficult path snaring US allo residencies, particularly the more competitive ones. Offshore MDs are in the worst situation -- they do poorly in the US allo match, and don't have their own residencies to shoot for. Additionally while US schools tend to have nominal attrition, some offshore schools have attrition as high as 40% of the class. So you have a 60% chance of getting to the point where you have a 50% chance of getting a US allo residency. That's crummy odds. No question in terms of keeping doors open you pick US allo first, US osteo second, and offshore a distant third. Having an "MD" behind your name is pretty meaningless if you don't get a residency slot.

Offshore is a good "second chance" at becoming a doctor if US options don't pan out. It should never be your first choice. If you go there and things work out, it means you did great on a much harder road. Most don't succeed.

As for the original question, you have to look at the MD/DO history. DO broke off from MD some decades ago due to a difference in philosophy of treatment. At the time DOs didn't have prescription rights, and had to work out of their own hospitals, so most of the public did not consider them equivalent to "doctors". It was only in very recent years (since the late 1980s) that you could make an argument that DO=MD in terms of ability/scope of practice. Since that time, there has been a steady erosion within the osteo membership of the notion that their philosophy is better to the point that other than OMM, there really isn't much distinction. So given that fact, it probably means that if you can get into a US allo school you should go, because (1) few are buying into the osteo philosophy anymore anyhow, and (2) it keeps more doors open in terms of the more numerous US allo residency slots. When you get out into practice, you will work with folks with various initials behind their names. Some are good, some not, but the initials usually don't make that so.
 
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That was an interesting article rating the difficulty of various professions, but the statistics are flawed - they completely ignore self-selection. These days statistics are almost always used to perpetuate the point of view that the authors wants to promulgate. They are rarely accurate. I don't want to analyze everything presented there, but if we just look at the astronaut, the 12 million : 1 chance is highly inaccurate. That calculation assumes that HALF of the entire US population even wants to become an astronaut. The way to present fair statistics is to use the proper age groups, physical condition (obese? blind? quadriplegic?) and those who actually are trying to become an astronaut. What are my chances of being an astronaut? It is indeed close to 0. But the reason is that I don't want to become an astronaut.

Regarding the Olympian analogy - in some cases that can be a hyperbole. When I say "average Joe," I don't mean Joe the Plumber. I mean your average Joe who actually is trying to become an Olympian. Also remember that we're talking about competitive fields, fields where even MDs don't match so easily. The analogy is valid because over the years I have read the bias present particularly in neurosurgery, since I am interested in the program. Call it prejudice, but it seems that some MD NS programs will not consider a DO regardless of stats - no interview. That's is 0% there. Let's also add that NS is hardly as competitive as some of the other fields like plastics. Let's also add that the same self-selection bias that deflated the chances in that article for the astronaut or the athlete is inflating those chances for competitive residencies because again, there is a huge self selection and there is a small probability of even reaching the stage where you can apply for a competitive residency. About 80% of AMG MDs match into NS. Ok, but what does it mean? Nothing much, because if you took the entire US population like it was done in that article and calculate who can match into NS (including the obese, the disabled, etc), you might get an answer with much less probability for the entire US population than for the pro athletes. I don't know, how many pro athletes get drafted per year. If it is less than 140, then you there you have it: NS is more difficult to get than becoming a pro athlete. Don't you love statistics?:smuggrin:

I would also be careful about selecting a specialty before you start your rotations. You might never know if you change your mind about what you want to do at a later time and after $200K, you don't want to have any doors closed for you, even if there is a small crack just enough to see through it.
 
Hahaha... I was undergrad biology major with a focus in neuroscience. I don't know much, but I can tell you that the vast majority of pre-meds (especially on the non-trad board) are NOT aiming to become a neuro or plastic surgeon. As the poster below alludes to, the 7 yrs is an especially long time it you are starting med school at 30, 40 or 50.

Whew, thank god that I don't want to be a neurosurgeon with their demanding (severe understatement) 7 year residency.
 
The duration of NS training is a separate issue, but I agree, it is not short. However, the average residency duration is already around 4 years. If you want to subspecialize, that's another 2-3 years. The difference isn't that big. Plus, if you are doing something you love, it doesn't matter if it takes extra couple of years to get there. I will admit that I cannot say with certainty that I will for sure choose the longer residency, but if later I am still unable to imagine another fit, then the decision will not change. I don't remember which poster said this, but I once read a very insightful post. The person basically said that we all are eventually going to become old and die. Why then complain about going after a certain profession just because you are X years old since whether you want to or not, you are going to become X+Y years old anyway. Time just doesn't wait. You will eventually get to that age and then wish that perhaps you should have done what you really wanted. Barring any specific disadvantages, the extra time itself in residency is hardly a waste. And let's not forget, as a resident, you do get paid the average or median income of the US population. Yeah sure, you are working "extra," but at the same time you are getting paid to learn, likely something you really love.

I know that people usually complain about the time spent in residency and that it is too demanding to have a life, but I think otherwise. The research I am doing is similar to a surgery residency - it is not too uncommon to approach 100hrs a week (7 days), with mostly spending over 50 hours a week on top of a part-time job + school. There are also call "simulations" with a record being up for 2 days and nights continuously. When I finally approached a one day break, I just went home, slept for over 12 hours, and next morning was finally able to see the sun and do the rest of the "normal" activities, like going to the beach, wasting time on SDN posts, etc. So whether you want to have a life or not depends on you. If the job you're doing is overly stressful, it doesn't really matter how much time you're spending there because a stressed, depressed person cannot enjoy much. The issue is not with time and but the approach itself. Therefore, we cannot say that spending X amount of hours in residency is congruent to lack of quality in life.
 
Hey Guys

Just read the posts, I thought they were good and useful.
Thanks and enjoy your weekend.
 
Blasphemy! Just about any minute now some attending will come and scold you for complaining about the already reduced workweek. There is a thread in the residency forum where many who did the 110hrs say that the newer system trains you "poorly." I don't agree, but they do have a point in some cases. Also, as far as I understand the 80 hour limitation, it is supposed to be an average. Perhaps it is not against the rules to work 100 hours in one week if you will work 60 hours the next. I actually like that better because you can choose to have some very heavy weeks and then a lighter week, rather then be in perpetual stupor.

Exactly, that's the part I hate most - the hobbies suffer first. It is especially painful if you have many hobbies in different disciplines. I sometimes can't touch the piano for months, whereas in the good old days I used to dabble for up to four hours every day. Maybe this is why they call you a specialist.
 
So is that rule across the board or it depends on the residency you pursue? I'm not going to guess which residencies are better off with less hours, but it could be some are and some are better with no limit.
 
This is my opinion on the matter.

DO>>>>>>>>>>>>MD, Carib.

Moving to another country. With the education bubble approaching the bursting point. With the competition for residency spots hitting a perfect storm. Venturing into high dollar piranha pools. With sketchy financing and scattered, half-hazard rotation sites. Is. Well. F'n dangerous.

But I'm cautious about these things. I'm sure opinions vary.
The problem when discussing the Caribbean is that there's no distinguishing among them.

It is much different to get a St. George's University MD than it is to get one from Medical University of the Americas. SGU has done a good job getting their students rotations, and many of their graduates end up in a variety of residencies. I've seen psychiatry folks at Harvard and some surgery at Mount Senai School of Medicine in NY. Plus, you get to work in all 50 states. For MUA, you don't get all 50 states, rotations are bad, no financial aid, and you have high drop-out rates. You'll probably be stuck in family practice if you're lucky.

It also depends what you're looking to do. If you're looking for: family practice, internal medicine, psychiatry, and pediatrics, there is almost no problem with an SGU degree. If you're looking for OB/GYN, Neuorology, Emergency Medicine, General Surgery, and Anesthesiology, it is doable with an SGU degree. If you're after Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, Plastics, ENT, or Dermatology, it is likely impossible for you to accomplish this a Caribbean degree.

The only true bonuses a Caribbean degree has is that you will have an MD and be rarely questioned like a DO, and you get to practice overseas.
 
...Also, as far as I understand the 80 hour limitation, it is supposed to be an average. Perhaps it is not against the rules to work 100 hours in one week if you will work 60 hours the next. ...

Correct, it's averaged over a 4 week block. You can, and sometimes do, have up to 3 longer than 80 hour weeks with an easier week packed in. Most of the time programs try to keep each week close to the 80 hour mark though, because they don't want to find they hit the ceiling and have to give someone a day off unexpectedly in the 4th week to stay in compliance (really screws with the schedule when you have an unplanned "abscence", I saw that happen a couple of times in my program). All bets are off around the winter holiday times, when you are trying to run the department with half the personnel -- that's where you can really blow past the 80 hour week. So no, 80 hours is not the ceiling in any given week, just on average.
 
The problem when discussing the Caribbean is that there's no distinguishing among them. ...

Yes and no. There are better and worse offshore schools. But none gives you the same kind of odds as a US school. And ALL have high attrition. I know folks from SGU who landed amazing residencies. But they can all point to tons of classmates who didn't fare well. And with the increase in US med schools in each of the last few and upcoming years, it's going to be harder and harder to land good spots. Many of the fields you describe as doable are becoming reaches for all offshore students.
 
So is that rule across the board or it depends on the residency you pursue? I'm not going to guess which residencies are better off with less hours, but it could be some are and some are better with no limit.

The 80 hour averaged work week is the rule for all US allo residencies. The lifestyle fields probably don't hit 80 hours anyhow so the impact isn't really significant. But for surgical fields and most IM programs, it has an impact.
 
OK, so apparently MD schools are better for individuals who plan to specialize outside primary care. This may be premature but I am interested in ENT and dermatology. Does anyone know how these two specific specialties compare with others in terms of competiveness and getting in? Thanks.
 
The 80 hour averaged work week is the rule for all US allo residencies. The lifestyle fields probably don't hit 80 hours anyhow so the impact isn't really significant. But for surgical fields and most IM programs, it has an impact.

So the ACGME has decided they are stopping the 30hour shifts for interns and going to 16 hours next year.


OK, so apparently MD schools are better for individuals who plan to specialize outside primary care. This may be premature but I am interested in ENT and dermatology. Does anyone know how these two specific specialties compare with others in terms of competiveness and getting in? Thanks.

Both are at the very top in terms of competitiveness. Derm is arguably the most competitive specialty out there. ENT is close.
 
So the ACGME has decided they are stopping the 30hour shifts for interns and going to 16 hours next year.
...

I believe thus far it is a recommendation, hasn't been officially decided. It's a proposal open for comments starting now, and will be substantially revamped. Definitely won't occur this year (the below website suggests it will start in June 2011, AS REVISED), although there are probably programs that are voluntarily going to try it to avoid the rush. There are a ton of problems with the ACGME proposal so I suspect that what will get passed will be very very different from what has been floated thus far. Just a hunch, but I suspect that some number of hours between the proposed 16 and the currently used 30 will be the actual one (24?). See http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20100623/NEWS/306239973&Template=printpicart
 
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I was told that orthopedic surgery was one of the most "benign" surgical specialties. How many hours/week is orthopedic surgery in residency, in general? If memory serves, intern year is an internship with general surgery followed by four years of orthopedic surgery? Thanks.

"Benign" has nothing to do with hours. Ortho is benign because it's very much a "slap each other on the back" kind of field, where you don't have to write a lot of notes, the attendings frequently aren't abusinve, and the residents can spend a lot of time in the OR. But in terms of hours, it's a true surgical field. Most of the orthopods I know flirt with the 80 hour limitations regularly. As mentioned, at most places the first year is done with general surgery, so you will be worked/abused just like the gen surg folks are.
 
OK, so apparently MD schools are better for individuals who plan to specialize outside primary care. This may be premature but I am interested in ENT and dermatology. Does anyone know how these two specific specialties compare with others in terms of competiveness and getting in? Thanks.

Derm is the most competitive of non-surgical fields, with Rad Onc in the same ballpark. ENT is probably the most competitive surgical subspecialty after plastics. You basically need to go to a US allo school and be toward the top of your class in terms of evals and board scores to have a strong shot at those.
 
I don't care very much for myself, and I know that it won't matter as far as the career goes - its all about where the residency is done anyway. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining - Yes, I'm a doctor, yes, I am a medical doctor, just not a Medical Doctor. No, a DO is not like a doctor of philosophy......

I had enough of these discussions just when I was considering applying to an osteopathic school. When I heard second hand that I was going to be a Physician's Assistant, I had enough. I don't want to deal with it. I know that DO's are just as good as MD's and I know that MOST people know it, I just don't like dealing with the minority.

So you just care about impressing people?
 
The problem when discussing the Caribbean is that there's no distinguishing among them.

It is much different to get a St. George's University MD than it is to get one from Medical University of the Americas. SGU has done a good job getting their students rotations, and many of their graduates end up in a variety of residencies. I've seen psychiatry folks at Harvard and some surgery at Mount Senai School of Medicine in NY. Plus, you get to work in all 50 states. For MUA, you don't get all 50 states, rotations are bad, no financial aid, and you have high drop-out rates. You'll probably be stuck in family practice if you're lucky.

It also depends what you're looking to do. If you're looking for: family practice, internal medicine, psychiatry, and pediatrics, there is almost no problem with an SGU degree. If you're looking for OB/GYN, Neuorology, Emergency Medicine, General Surgery, and Anesthesiology, it is doable with an SGU degree. If you're after Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, Plastics, ENT, or Dermatology, it is likely impossible for you to accomplish this a Caribbean degree.

The only true bonuses a Caribbean degree has is that you will have an MD and be rarely questioned like a DO, and you get to practice overseas.

DO's practice overseas, so what's your point? There's really no plus for going Carib MD over U.S. DO.
 
To add to this, many of the countries that do accept DO also do not accept a Caribbean MD so be careful. Make sure to do your research. There are exceptions of course (Spain being the most notable, where a Caribbean MD is accepted and a DO is not). Most other countries that do not accept DO also do not accept Caribbean MDs.

DO's practice overseas, so what's your point? There's really no plus for going Carib MD over U.S. DO.
 
The only true bonuses a Caribbean degree has is that you will have an MD and be rarely questioned like a DO, and you get to practice overseas.

US DOs can practice overseas - and at more places than SGU grads.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7176088&postcount=8

I can count on no hands the number of people on SDN and in real life, that have moved to foreign country to practice.

And I've never been questioned on my degree - then again, I'm an ER doc.
 
I believe thus far it is a recommendation, hasn't been officially decided. It's a proposal open for comments starting now, and will be substantially revamped. Definitely won't occur this year (the below website suggests it will start in June 2011, AS REVISED), although there are probably programs that are voluntarily going to try it to avoid the rush. There are a ton of problems with the ACGME proposal so I suspect that what will get passed will be very very different from what has been floated thus far. Just a hunch, but I suspect that some number of hours between the proposed 16 and the currently used 30 will be the actual one (24?). See http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20100623/NEWS/306239973&Template=printpicart

Our program director basically said that it they have decided to adopt it and even though it is in the "comments" phase, it's going to 16h next year (which will be disastrous for us).
 
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