Med school in India or US

[Glazedonutlove]

Getting a perfect MCAT, and a 4.0 GPA doesn't mean you'll be a good doctor..
I would prefer that my doctor actually have skills, and care about people and not just be in it for "prestige"
Being a doctor in Asian culture is a status symbol, not a calling.

when will you ever learn to stop making generalizations?

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[Dr.Sticks]

when will you ever learn to stop making generalizations?

It's not a generalization, I can back it up

 

[Dr.Sticks]

when will you ever learn to stop making generalizations?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/asian-american-jobs-success-myth-arts

 

[Glazedonutlove]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/asian-american-jobs-success-myth-arts

I just can't even with this kid..

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Please take some time and travel to Asia or anywhere else for that matter, unless you want to remain an ignorant person for the rest of your life.

My parents are from central Asia..
Want to assume more?

(That means I have been to Asia)

 

[Gladiolus23]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/asian-american-jobs-success-myth-arts

This is not true of everyone. In fact, most students who go into medicine truly do want to serve their country. It's hard to ignore the constant poverty seen on the streets, so I wouldn't say it's all a status symbol. Sure, there are people who pursue the MD to become more 'marriageable or respected or rich', but there are also many, many students who do it for the service.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

This is not true of everyone. In fact, most students who go into medicine truly do want to serve their country. It's hard to ignore the constant poverty seen on the streets, so I wouldn't say it's all a status symbol. Sure, there are many who pursue the MD to become more marriageable or respected, but there are also lots of students who do it for the service.

I won't say it's a status symbol for everyone, that would be ignorant.
However we must agree that at a certain point the desire to be a white collar professional is cultural, and fed into the minds of many children that they will be nothing in society if they aren't Engineers or Doctors, or something.

 

[steelersfan1243]

I won't say it's a status symbol for everyone, that would be ignorant.
However we must agree that at a certain point the desire to be a white collar professional is cultural, and fed into the minds of many children that they will be nothing in society if they aren't Engineers or Doctors, or something.

lol

 

[Dr.Sticks]

lol

Discrimination against blue collar workers is a real thing in Asian society.. I would know.. The indian posters on this forum can probably agree as well.

 

[allantois]

That's what this threads reminds me of:

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

My parents are from central Asia..
Want to assume more?

(That means I have been to Asia)

Ok, honestly since I have seen both systems at play I cannot entirely abhor you for the generalizations you made since they have some sort of a base. But this stems from a reason- guaranteed income. People who have to support their families and can barely gather the money for a degree will be less likely to go into the arts (literally families will starve if they don't earn) and a lot of immigrants to the US rise out of such situations. In that state they are bound to encourage their children to follow similar professions although as the need for money decreases, the pressure from parents decreases to a certain extent. My parents told me to study whatever I wanted and most of the people I know have the same situation. Yes discrimination against blue collar workers is also a thing (slowly being stamped out of society thank god) but in societies with such a wide disparity in income its hard to remove it. See..the points you're making have some backing to them but the way you are approaching it is kind of crass and likely to offend people. Please frame your concerns better

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Discrimination against blue collar workers is a real thing in Asian society.. I would know.. The indian posters on this forum can probably agree as well.

Have you ever stopped to think why?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Ok, honestly since I have seen both systems at play I cannot entirely abhor you for the generalizations you made since they have some sort of a base. But this stems from a reason- guaranteed income. People who have to support their families and can barely gather the money for a degree will be less likely to go into the arts (literally families will starve if they don't earn) and a lot of immigrants to the US rise out of such situations. In that state they are bound to encourage their children to follow similar professions although as the need for money decreases, the pressure from parents decreases to a certain extent. My parents told me to study whatever I wanted and most of the people I know have the same situation. Yes discrimination against blue collar workers is also a thing (slowly being stamped out of society thank god) but in societies with such a wide disparity in income its hard to remove it. See..the points you're making have some backing to them but the way you are approaching it is kind of crass and likely to offend people. Please frame your concerns better

Yes I understand that; I'm just very blunt and put things out there.
Glad you understand where I'm coming from.

Have you ever stopped to think why?

Well considering I read the article, have researched it extensively, have been to Asia, I believe I would know why. The problem is it won't help nations succeed.
Blue Collar workers are the backbone of society, we need them.

 

[PhillyMed777]

Haha its true (obviously represents the creme dela creme of the Indian educational system but thats the funny part..if youre in the top 1% on the IIT entrance test, that means there are 5000+ people right up there with you).
http://www.freeonlinetests247.com/instructions_for_free_online_test_IIT-JEE-Main-2015/414
Try solving this Keep in mind you get very little time for each question and the paper is meant for 17 year olds.

just looked at the questions...honestly very much in line with AP level stuff. Surprised it wasn't as hard, as you built it up.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

However it would be ignorant of me to even compare U.S blue collar to Asian blue collar..
Blue collar workers in Asia generally make peanuts, and the way to do a decent middle class life is white collar work.

In the U.S you can make six figures doing blue collar work

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

just looked at the questions...honestly very much in line with AP level stuff. Surprised it wasn't as hard, as you built it up.

I'm sorry might have linked you the wrong paper. Look into the IITJEE on google, I've seen what the american curriculum is like (in college and APs) and in terms of raw brainpower nothing can compare. I studied from the same Physics and Chem books in college as I did for my IIT coaching as a 16 year old. Trust me on this one haha. I'm sure China, South Korea and other countries have similar insane exams.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Yes I understand that; I'm just very blunt and put things out there.
Glad you understand where I'm coming from.

Well considering I read the article, have researched it extensively, have been to Asia, I believe I would know why. The problem is it won't help nations succeed.
Blue Collar workers are the backbone of society, we need them.

Lol. You have been to Asia and read an article. And now you feel entitled to make huge generalizations about the entire continent though you have only traveled to one of its countries.

 

[fancymylotus]

OK, so I just graduated from high school- I will be applying to colleges in the US for premed, and also to UK and India for medicine- just to clarify my position- I am an US citizen, living in India- there are around 2 top colleges that I could get into (very competitive) in India, being foreign- so I will be applying to the UK where the system is quite similiar to India. I want to do my residency in the US. About where I ultimately want to stay- that's obv hard to say atm, but I will prob stay in the US- however, I would like the option of going back to India if I want to- specially later in life. UK - I have no intention of practising there. I will just be going there to study.
Taking all this into account-
*1) How hard is it for IMG's to match into residency? Is there any difference between UK medical degree and Indian medical degree to those who coordinate residencies?
2) Will I be able to get into a specialty of my choice, even if its not a very good school? On what criteria are you given the specialty of your choice?
3) I am interested in research later on- will studying in the UK/India be detrimental to that? I'm talking about fellowships.
4) Also- could anyone tell me a little more about the specialty medical genetics? I am interested in genetics- which specialties relate most to this field?
5)Lastly,( I know this is not the correct forum), but exactly how hard is it for a good student (not brilliant) with a keen interest in learning to get into med school? How hard is the MCAT? This is important, because I don't want to go back to the US to study, and not be able to pursue my dreams. Everyone says its really difficult, and premed years are very stressful (some say even more than med school). I am not a slacker,but I don't really feel the need to be top in class all the time. I just like doing well in what I love.
Any input on whether UK/India or US is right for me is also appreciated.

US MD

 

[steelersfan1243]

US MD

Okay board closed people, the question has now been answered

 

[fancymylotus]

based on the fact that the US isn't a 3rd world ****hole.

aka, you can drink the tap water and not **** your kidneys out.

Not cool. No calling the homeland a third word ****hole.



Now you all can go back to arguing

 

[Mad Jack]

I really doubt that such an issue exists for medical students that live a country with over a billion people. Regardless, OP should go to a medical school in the country where he wishes to practice. While it is definitely true that IMGs will have low chances at landing in a good US residency spot, the reverse situation is just as, if not more, difficult (especially due to the substantially larger amount of competition).

You would be surprised. Many of the schools lack the funds to actually run proper teaching hospitals, and there aren't exactly tons of decent hospitals clamoring to take in med students in India. You can have all the patients in the world, but without infrastructure and funding (insurance isn't something possessed by the vast majority of Indians, so even if they need care, there is no one to pay for it) those patients can't be seen.

 

[Gladiolus23]

I'm sorry might have linked you the wrong paper. Look into the IITJEE on google, I've seen what the american curriculum is like (in college and APs) and in terms of raw brainpower nothing can compare. I studied from the same Physics and Chem books in college as I did for my IIT coaching as a 16 year old. Trust me on this one haha. I'm sure China, South Korea and other countries have similar insane exams.

Yeah IIT-jee Q's are tough! I doubt it's similar to AP work…on the other hand, I just found a few practice medical entrance tests (from the new NEET exam) and…perhaps they are surprisingly easier than MCAT? Starting to wish I had taken this one lol http://www.examrace.com/NEET-PG/NEE...Model-Paper-1.html#pdfsection_59a369af-page_2

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

You would be surprised. Many of the schools lack the funds to actually run proper teaching hospitals, and there aren't exactly tons of decent hospitals clamoring to take in med students in India. You can have all the patients in the world, but without infrastructure and funding (insurance isn't something possessed by the vast majority of Indians, so even if they need care, there is no one to pay for it) those patients can't be seen.

E.G.
An X-Ray in India costs approximately $5-7 in urban areas in close to free in government hospitals (although the government hospitals are mostly deplorable) - without ANY insurance. Most public universities have the necessary resources, its the private up and coming for-profit colleges that have bigger issues with these things. With the rise in income and the low costs of healthcare, larger and larger percentages of the population can be seen under the conventional healthcare system.

 

[fancymylotus]

Okay board closed people, the question has now been answered

Glad my sarcasm wasn't lost on everyone

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

Yeah IIT-jee Q's are tough! I doubt it's similar to AP work…on the other hand, I just found a few practice medical entrance tests (from the new NEET exam) and…perhaps they are surprisingly easier than MCAT? Starting to wish I had taken this one lol http://www.examrace.com/NEET-PG/NEE...Model-Paper-1.html#pdfsection_59a369af-page_2

it does sounds waay too easy. Dude the cutoffs will be near 100 percentile with this exam.

 

[I'm On My Way Up]

I'm sorry might have linked you the wrong paper. Look into the IITJEE on google, I've seen what the american curriculum is like (in college and APs) and in terms of raw brainpower nothing can compare. I studied from the same Physics and Chem books in college as I did for my IIT coaching as a 16 year old. Trust me on this one haha. I'm sure China, South Korea and other countries have similar insane exams.

That and the "K-12" equivalent in countries like India, China, South Korea, Japan, etc. is generally viewed as much more rigorous compared to the US system. Higher education is a different matter. As far as the main topic is concerned, go to school where you want to practice.

 

[Mad Jack]

Lol the funniest part is that out of the 72 seats, 36 are reserved for certain classes of people (kind of like URM)- so the 'general' applicant has 36 seats to get to i.e. has to be one of the Top 36 in all of India. Additionally, people study for medical exams from the 11th grade for around 8 hours a day (even more). After going through that test of fire, only the best (at least academically) even survive...

EDIT: Sorry for making this into a semi circlejerk of sorts but I just wanted to shine some light on the state of medical school admissions in other countries. Back to the main topic- if you can get into the top colleges in India OP- go. Otherwise the US might be a better option when you definitely want to work in the US.

That's a big if. A fraction of a fraction of a percentage point get in. That's like saying if you get into MD/PhD at Harvard go. And even then- here's the big thing- you're still going to be an IMG. Yeah, you'll be better off than most IMGs, but you're still better off being a US MD than an IMG, regardless of what international school you went to, if you plan on practicing in the US. If you want to practice in India, sure, go to a top school. Not only will you be getting a good education, but the top doctors in India make the salaries of the average US physician pale in comparison. But they are an elite and finite few, and you have to both get into a top 10 college there and want to spend your career in India for such a thing to be worthwhile.

 

[Gladiolus23]

it does sounds waay too easy. Dude the cutoffs will be near 100 percentile with this exam.

Yeah, I'm suspicious now lol ugh I can't believe they released this stupid test after I graduated from high school! I could have aced this

 

[Mad Jack]

E.G.
An X-Ray in India costs approximately $5-7 in urban areas in close to free in government hospitals (although the government hospitals are mostly deplorable) - without ANY insurance. Most public universities have the necessary resources, its the private up and coming for-profit colleges that have bigger issues with these things. With the rise in income and the low costs of healthcare, larger and larger percentages of the population can be seen under the conventional healthcare system.

46% of Indians lack access to healthcare. That's an entire U.S. and Britain combined worth of people that completely lack health care access.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.2DAY

59.2% of Indians were living on less than 2 dollars a day in 2011. When a single CXR costs 5 bucks, it doesn't sound like a lot. But it isn't the only test they'll need. A full workup, even if it's $30, can amount to half a month's pay. Yes, the better public schools have the resources to see this patients. But the majority of schools are either private (more than half of medical schools in the country) or poorly funded public schools. Only the top public schools give you both the facilities and the training to become a world-class physician, and even those will merely put you on par (not ahead of) most US graduates if you'd rather do your residency in the U.S.

 

[fancymylotus]

46% of Indians lack access to healthcare. That's an entire U.S. and Britain combined worth of people that completely lack health care access.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.2DAY

59.2% of Indians were living on less than 2 dollars a day in 2011. When a single CXR costs 5 bucks, it doesn't sound like a lot. But it isn't the only test they'll need. A full workup, even if it's $30, can amount to half a month's pay. Yes, the better public schools have the resources to see this patients. But the majority of schools are either private (more than half of medical schools in the country) or poorly funded public schools. Only the top public schools give you both the facilities and the training to become a world-class physician, and even those will merely put you on par (not ahead of) most US graduates if you'd rather do your residency in the U.S.

You are doing a lot of talking about things you don't know much about. But carry on.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

E.G.
An X-Ray in India costs approximately $5-7 in urban areas in close to free in government hospitals (although the government hospitals are mostly deplorable) - without ANY insurance. Most public universities have the necessary resources, its the private up and coming for-profit colleges that have bigger issues with these things. With the rise in income and the low costs of healthcare, larger and larger percentages of the population can be seen under the conventional healthcare system.

that percentage is still very small. like you said, the public hospitals are terrible but in rural areas these are all people have access to.

 

[allantois]

46% of Indians lack access to healthcare. That's an entire U.S. and Britain combined worth of people that completely lack health care access.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.2DAY

59.2% of Indians were living on less than 2 dollars a day in 2011. When a single CXR costs 5 bucks, it doesn't sound like a lot. But it isn't the only test they'll need. A full workup, even if it's $30, can amount to half a month's pay. Yes, the better public schools have the resources to see this patients. But the majority of schools are either private (more than half of medical schools in the country) or poorly funded public schools. Only the top public schools give you both the facilities and the training to become a world-class physician, and even those will merely put you on par (not ahead of) most US graduates if you'd rather do your residency in the U.S.

Nobody here is arguing that LUCOM> top Indian MD if you want to practice in the US. The problem was with the sentiment that US physicians are somehow the best trained in the world. As you pointed out in pros of PBL curriculum, any dedicated student can learn medicine from studying at home, regardless of whether they are in India or in US. The only benefit that I see is in superior clinical facilities and funding of US hospital, and that we cannot argue about. Now, this is no longer an issue of whether medical student A is better than medical student B, but an issue of different healthcare systems where each has its own challenges. However, if there is one healthcare system that will most certainly not solve healthcare disparities in the world, that would be the US one. Comparing US healthcare or economy to Indian is outright pointless.

 

[Mad Jack]

You are doing a lot of talking about things you don't know much about. But carry on.

The median income in India is $616 per year. That is a fact. 50% of the population lives on less than that.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...lowest-among-brics-gallup-113121600968_1.html

The vast majority of Indian graduates do not match.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Those that do typically do not end up in top institutions. Sure, there'll be some exceptions, but most of them end up in FMG sweatshops, whereas they could've easily landed a university program coming out of a US MD school if they had average performance.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

@allantois Well I suppose the reputation for research in the U.S, and being on the front lines is what drives the reputation for U.S schools as being the best. I have noticed though that a good percentage of med schools focus on primary care, and they want to train Physicians to serve undeserved areas.

 

[MSclerosis]

IIT is god level.

No it is not.

The IIT exam is not as bad as what you describe. If you are into physics/math/chemistry, it is not that hard. With that said, I excelled in all of my physical science courses and TA'd both physics and math. May be that's why I am not struggling with it, although the chem section I still find to be tricky.

Scoring in the top percentiles would be a real challenge though, especially if you are still in high school.

 

[Mad Jack]

Nobody here is arguing that LUCOM> top Indian MD if you want to practice in the US. The problem was with the sentiment that US physicians are somehow the best trained in the world. As you pointed out in pros of PBL curriculum, any dedicated student can learn medicine from studying at home, regardless of whether they are in India or in US. The only benefit that I see is in superior clinical facilities and funding of US hospital, and that we cannot argue about. Now, this is no longer an issue of whether medical student A is better than medical student B, but an issue of different healthcare systems where each has its own challenges. However, is there is one healthcare model that will most certainly not solve healthcare disparities in the world, that would be the US one. Comparing US healthcare to Indian is outright pointless.

A PBL curriculum is only as good as the professors providing the material and guiding you through it. Not that I was even specifically talking about PBL- there are plenty of traditional lecture curriculums without mandatory attendance. It's not like you just read a book all day- you've got an expert that's providing you with 20-30 hours a week of the best condensed medical school material you could ask for. Given that the performance of a student is greatly influenced by the aptitude and knowledge of the person teaching them, and that academic medicine tends to draw the best and brightest in America out of a pool that is already the best and brightest, you end up with a pretty solid curriculum.

As to which of our systems could solve the global issue of how to optimally provide heath care, neither is perfect, but India's system has a far greater percentage of underserved patients, a far greater rate of complications, and a massive number of fraudulent practitioners. The prices may be low, but the populace is still too poor for them to be affordable, and furthermore the quality control is practically nonexistent in all but the best hospitals.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I'll point this out; You can read all day and know everything about the topic, but it doesn't mean you can do it.
I could probably obtain the same books as medical students, and find the lectures and everything.. Would that make me a doctor? nope
I wouldn't have a clue on how to apply this book knowledge to actual medicine, well maybe a little.. but not much

That's why we have long residencies for surgery and more intensive fields like Oncology/Hematology or Neurology..

 

[allantois]

@allantois Well I suppose the reputation for research in the U.S, and being on the front lines is what drives the reputation for U.S schools as being the best. I have noticed though that a good percentage of med schools focus on primary care, and they want to train Physicians to serve undeserved areas.

Look, the US is the leader in biomedical research, and I believe it will continue to be that way. But we have lost and continue to loose the best engineers and computer scientists as well as respective industries to China and India. Physical sciences to Europe: look up the nationalities of Nobel Laureates in Physics of the past 10 years (they are Asian and European; before then, predominantly American). The best physicists are no longer in the US, they are in Geneva, Switzerland. Having a good healthcare system (which is really not that good when you consider that it is also the most expensive in the world) is great but it does not generate money for the country.

 

[oopsaloo]

I dont know anything about med school in india, but i imagine that it might be shorter in length than the US undergrad+med school path (kinda like the european system). you might consider this in making your decision, but if you ultimately want to practice in the US, then it might not be such a big factor.
just out of curiosity, is it a huge deal to apply to some schools in each place, and then decide based on where you get in what path to take? E.g. if you get into the top indian schools, then maybe go there, but if you get into a decent US undergrad instead then go there?

 

[SPDF]

It's not a generalization, I can back it up

States he can "back it up".
Posts randomblog.com...

Do you also cite wikipedia in your research papers?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Look, the US is the leader in biomedical research, and I believe it will continue to be that way. But we have lost and continue to loose the best engineers and computer scientists as well as respective industries to China and India. Physical sciences to Europe: look up the nationalities of Nobel Laureates in Physics of the past 10 years (they are Asian and European; before then, predominantly American). The best physicists are no longer in the US, they are in Switzerland, Geneva. Having good healthcare (which is the most expensive in the world) is great but it does not generate money for the country.

Are you sure?
13 out of the 20 most influential scientists according to this source are American
http://superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-scientists-alive-today/

 

[Dr.Sticks]

States he can "back it up".
Posts randomblog.com...

Do you also cite wikipedia in your research papers?

You didn't read the article; Get back to me when you do
Also for Research I use a database.. No google

 

[MSclerosis]

Dear OP,

I think you should go for the UK route.

Think about it. Within 6 years, you will become a junior doctor. Heck, you will even have a shot at matching into US residencies (if you play your cards right).

With the US route, it will take you a minimum of 4+4 years to get the medical degree, plus, there is a lot more risk and money involved. More room for error and years wasted.

Consider this:
One of my good friends from HS went to the UK to study medicine and he is already a junior doctor. I have not yet been accepted into medical school. We had the same grades, his parents suggested the UK route, while I decided to go for an undergrad in Canada.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[I'm On My Way Up]

I'll point this out; You can read all day and know everything about the topic, but it doesn't mean you can do it.
I could probably obtain the same books as medical students, and find the lectures and everything.. Would that make me a doctor? nope
I wouldn't have a clue on how to apply this book knowledge to actual medicine, well maybe a little.. but not much

That's why we have long residencies for surgery and more intensive fields like Oncology/Hematology or Neurology..

Implying these other countries don't. I don't remember if it was earlier in this thread or another one, but post medical education, hospital internships, specializations, etc. in other countries usually end up being the same length as the US or even longer (UK comes to mind). Combine that with larger and more concentrated populations (for Asian countries especially), and you'll see why "learning how to be a real doc" isn't as big of an issue abroad as you might think it is.

 

[allantois]

Are you sure?
13 out of the 20 most influential scientists according to this source are American
http://superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-scientists-alive-today/

...according to a website managed by an American with an M.A. in Divinity. Richard Dawkins was the most influential for me, but I doubt he should be anywhere in the top list of scientists. You really need to stop citing random **** off the internet and then telling people to read it.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

...according to a website managed by an American with a B.A. in Business. Richard Dawkins was the most influential for me, but I doubt he should be anywhere in the top list of scientists. You really need to stop citing random **** of the internet and then telling people to read it.

"Best" is subjective.. Therefore you will receive a subjective opinion blog..

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Implying these other countries don't. I don't remember if it was earlier in this thread or another one, but post medical education, hospital internships, specializations, etc. in other countries usually end up being the same length as the US or even longer (UK comes to mind). Combine that with larger and more concentrated populations (for Asian countries especially), and you'll see why "learning how to be a real doc" isn't as big of an issue abroad as you might think it is.

Did not apply other countries don't have clinical studies; I was pointing out to the other poster the the extensive training is what makes a lot of people like the U.S. You sign your life away to do some of these specialties.. Your entire youth..Making less than minimum wage

 

[SPDF]

You didn't read the article; Get back to me when you do
Also for Research I use a database.. No google

I can't tell whether you're dense or naive. I'm at a loss for words...

 

[Glazedonutlove]

...according to a website managed by an American with a B.A. in Business. Richard Dawkins was the most influential for me, but I doubt he should be anywhere in the top list of scientists. You really need to stop citing random **** of the internet and then telling people to read it.

cut him some slack lol, he hasn't started college to learn about credible sources... -_-

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I can't tell whether you're dense or naive. I'm at a loss for words...

It talks about studies done.. It also gives an unbiased view and points out the reason is duty the thought that high education is the only way to make it.. (which is not true in the U.S but is true in Asia)