Med School Tuition is Insane

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BLADEMDA

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So, with ObamaCare likely to be ruled Constitutional (except for the mandate) I was wondering about these insane medical school tuition costs. Is there no end in sight? Can these schools keep raising tuition costs every single year? Is there no limit to what they can charge?

I understand the free market principles at work here but is it really free market when the govt decides what your services are worth and you have little choice but accept that fee?

The way I see it is that a young person starting a private college today followed by a private medical school could easily spend $350-400K on his/her education.

Even if the cost is $250K (a more realistic number) how is a family practice physician who sees Medicaid/Medicare patients supposed to earn a living and pay that back?

Surely a socialized system with capped reimbursement should consider the cost of educating the physician? Or, must the system totally break-down before this problem gets addressed?

Do any of you med students see this as issue in your career? Are you concerned about the debt vs reward ratio going forward under ObamaCare?

With the number of CMS patients skyrocketing over the next 20 years the issue of medical school debt vs govt limited reimbursement is a real one.

Yet, medical school still remains extremely competitive and Residency positions are like Gold.

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The internet says Tufts Meducal school tuition is now over $54,000 per year for in-state tuition. Is this correct? If so, 4 years at Tufts costs over $275K to get that M.D.

Anyone know a student who paid more for a Medical degree? I imagine that 4 years of undergraduate at Tufts isn't cheap either. So, is this the first school where a BS and MD now costs over $500K?

How exactly is a Family Physician supposed to pay that back earning $170K per year? Remember, that $170K is highly taxed especially in Mass.


http://medical-schools.findthebest....on-at-the-Tufts-University-School-of-Medicine
 
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So, with ObamaCare likely to be ruled Constitutional (except for the mandate) I was wondering about these insane medical school tuition costs. Is there no end in sight? Can these schools keep raising tuition costs every single year? Is there no limit to what they can charge?

I understand the free market principles at work here but is it really free market when the govt decides what your services are worth and you have little choice but accept that fee?

The way I see it is that a young person starting a private college today followed by a private medical school could easily spend $350-400K on his/her education.

Even if the cost is $250K (a more realistic number) how is a family practice physician who sees Medicaid/Medicare patients supposed to earn a living and pay that back?

Surely a socialized system with capped reimbursement should consider the cost of educating the physician? Or, must the system totally break-down before this problem gets addressed?

Do any of you med students see this as issue in your career? Are you concerned about the debt vs reward ratio going forward under ObamaCare?

With the number of CMS patients skyrocketing over the next 20 years the issue of medical school debt vs govt limited reimbursement is a real one.

Yet, medical school still remains extremely competitive and Residency positions are like Gold.

The entire bill will be nullified. Our only shot at actually getting paid good money from private insurers would have come with the mandate, but that is flying out the window too. Which means the next time we have any discussion about healthcare reform (and we will), it will only be in the context of public option AKA physician show-stopper AKA medicare-on-steroids. At that point all of us(not just Family docs) will be sweating coolaid.
 
Good thing you didn't bold or font-adjust any of that or you'd be outta here :)

But seriously it's crazy, the problem is there are so many college pre-meds with the dream of being a Doctor willing to pay it without fully understanding the future compensation changes inevitably coming.... And if they bring up future compensation they are seen as money chasing d-bags that aren't going into medicine for the "pure" reasons. This won't change until tons of new residency grads can't get jobs that pay off their loans and this info trickles down, there will be a huge lag time involving tons of waiting applicants hoping for a spot that is only going to leave them grossly underpaid vs their debt load. The DO schools in my opinion are actually preying on these students (I am one of them), students who want to be a Dr more than they want to worry about the debt.
 
The internet says Tufts Meducal school tuition is now over $54,000 per year for in-state tuition. Is this correct? If so, 4 years at Tufts costs over $275K to get that M.D.

Anyone know a student who paid more for a Medical degree? I imagine that 4 years of undergraduate at Tufts isn't cheap either. So, is this the first school where a BS and MD now costs over $500K?

How exactly is a Family Physician supposed to pay that back earning $170K per year? Remember, that $170K is highly taxed especially in Mass.


http://medical-schools.findthebest....on-at-the-Tufts-University-School-of-Medicine


http://uss.tufts.edu/bursar/tuitionFees/

Okay, so 4 years of undergrad at Tufts is over $250K. 4 years of medical school at Tufts is $275K. That's $525K to get a medical degree if you are at Tufts for all 8 years.

Now, even I'd feel the pain of paying that bill for my kid. Ouch!! That's a big bill.
 
It's not just tuition, it's housing/living costs as well. Many of these private schools are in premium real estate markets (Boston, NYC, LA, Chi, etc).
 
The internet says Tufts Meducal school tuition is now over $54,000 per year for in-state tuition. Is this correct? If so, 4 years at Tufts costs over $275K to get that M.D.

Anyone know a student who paid more for a Medical degree? I imagine that 4 years of undergraduate at Tufts isn't cheap either. So, is this the first school where a BS and MD now costs over $500K?

How exactly is a Family Physician supposed to pay that back earning $170K per year? Remember, that $170K is highly taxed especially in Mass.


http://medical-schools.findthebest....on-at-the-Tufts-University-School-of-Medicine


The cost is ridiculous even for public schools.
Undergrad tuition + living expenses is about 20k.
Med school tuition + living expenses is about 50k.
--> that's about 280k for going to PUBLIC schools. And then you add on the interest during residency.
 
In addition, I have learned from some DO students here, you won't even get adequate advising on how to get a residency program of your choice. For the price you pay, you should get ample support.
 
So, with ObamaCare likely to be ruled Constitutional (except for the mandate) I was wondering about these insane medical school tuition costs. Is there no end in sight? Can these schools keep raising tuition costs every single year? Is there no limit to what they can charge?

I agree, I think the gov needs to set a mandate of some sort. Problem is it will be a long time coming and by then I'll be out of school and probably shafted on the start date of the program.:thumbup:

The way I see it is that a young person starting a private college today followed by a private medical school could easily spend $350-400K on his/her education.

Even if the cost is $250K (a more realistic number) how is a family practice physician who sees Medicaid/Medicare patients supposed to earn a living and pay that back?

I came out of undergrad (5yr track) on scholarship for tuition, working full time the last 2yrs = -16k (car/ mcat/ 30+ applications).

Started med school fall 09, I'm now about to finish second year. >-220k (there are some extra qtrs in there).

COA next year ~90k. Looks like I'll be at 400+ by the time I'm done. Family practice isn't even an option unless I found some sort of loan reimbursement program.
Surely a socialized system with capped reimbursement should consider the cost of educating the physician? Or, must the system totally break-down before this problem gets addressed?

Do any of you med students see this as issue in your career? Are you concerned about the debt vs reward ratio going forward under ObamaCare?
Yes, I'm very concerned and a big proponent against it. I vote and try to educate others. I try to let pre-meds know what it means to go to med school these days. I've come relegated myself to living this lifestyle for about ~10 yrs slowly increasing to accommodate life. Not what I invisioned when I was was a pre-med, but what can I do?
 
$400K of debt out of school? Seriously? Well, Anesthesiologists still earn enough to handle that sort of debt and a mortgage. But, for how much longer?

Anyone ever heard of more debt than $400K for schooling? The upper end is usually around $260K these days. Any statistics on the average debt from 2011? Is it $120K?
 
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$400K of debt out of school? Seriously? Well, Anesthesiologists still earn enough to handle that sort of debt and a mortgage. But, for how much longer?

Anyone ever heard of more debt than $400K for schooling? The upper end is usually around $260K these days. Any statistics on the average debt from 2011? Is it $120K?
The stats are all right skewed because they include the military students. They typically have a bit more of them at the expensive schools (~10% of the class). I know the majority of the c/o 2013 at my school have ~-220 unless they are receiving another form of support or working part time. My guess is that puts the true avg for that class at ~270 upon graduation.
 
$400K of debt out of school? Seriously? Well, Anesthesiologists still earn enough to handle that sort of debt and a mortgage. But, for how much longer?

Anyone ever heard of more debt than $400K for schooling? The upper end is usually around $260K these days. Any statistics on the average debt from 2011? Is it $120K?

I don't have any stats. But take a look at this:
http://www.finaid.msu.edu/read/budcom.pdf

Looks like the out of state kids are coming out with $400k just from med school. If you add in udergrad costs that could easily approach $600k.

How does one even approach paying that much off?
 
I imagine this won't become a real issue until physician salaries hit sub-$100k figures and stories of professionals with insurmountable debt become more widespread. Student debt, especially for professional school, isn't seen nor framed as a liability - it's still an "investment." Unfortunately, personal finance is not a required course in college and young med students haven't yet figured out the principle of opportunity cost. Looking at my own class's match list this year highlights this well as >25% of the class is considered "expanded" and took an additional year to either get that MPH, travel, drink, rock climb, etc. And what's the result? Another $40k+ in loans, a forfeited year of income at ~$150-250k, and a year of interest. It's been said a billion times, but until students figure out that student loans are nearly as bad as run of the mill consumer debt there's going to be a large cohort of physicians retiring with minimal net worth. It's okay though, we're in a "healthy" industry wherein we can be legally mandated to treat people without any expectation of being compensated for our time.

I'm sure glad I worked my way through a small public university paying ~$1300/quarter in tuition and wound up at my state med school. Even at that, I'm looking at $200k in debt when I finish school in June and hope to hemorrhage money back to the government during those first few years of practice post-residency. Hmmm, what we need is a pre-med advisory Flash program (a la Spent) that simulates how broke you'll be and how old you'll be by the time you finally turn a profit.
 
Do parents pay any portion of these costs any longer? Are the parents too broke from college costs to help out with medical school?

Average debt of $156,000 and climbing every year is nothing to sneeze at. The interest alone on this debt is staggering over 4-5 year residency.
 
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Do parents pay any portion of these costs any longer? Are the parents too broke from college costs to help out with medical school?

Haha, no. My parents just sold their house to move into a cheaper one. Having 3 kids in undergrad isn't cheap, even if they are at state schools.
 
My Debt Plan:

1) Accept reality - medicare is going to medicaid levels from a mathematical standpoint. Salaries are going down, you have given us the best numbers on that issue.

2) Start paying off debt during residency, its increasing at 6.8% - hard to imagine. There are various ways to do this. I suggest living with your family or living frugally. Based on current collection patterns, I do not think IPAB will exist for as it is written now ( http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20120401/business/704019973/).

3) Stay flexible - for me this means considering moving to any part of the country, and being flexible in terms of a family. I am staying single and focusing on other aspects of my life.

4) Have a backup plan ready.


Do parents pay any portion of these costs any longer? Are the parents too broke from college costs to help out with medical school?

Average debt of $156,000 and climbing every year is nothing to sneeze at. The interest alone on this debt is staggering over 4-5 year residency.
 
My Debt Plan:

1) Accept reality - medicare is going to medicaid levels from a mathematical standpoint. Salaries are going down, you have given us the best numbers on that issue.

2) Start paying off debt during residency, its increasing at 6.8% - hard to imagine. There are various ways to do this. I suggest living with your family or living frugally. Based on current collection patterns, I do not think IPAB will exist for as it is written now ( http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20120401/business/704019973/).

3) Stay flexible - for me this means considering moving to any part of the country, and being flexible in terms of a family. I am staying single and focusing on other aspects of my life.

4) Have a backup plan ready.

Excellent. Any comments about item number 4? You will do fine. Let me say how much harder it is to pay off debt compared to accumulating it.
 
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What are the numbers like if you compare mil salary for (what is it) four years compared to paying off student loan debt over the first four years of practice. I guess it would take 25-50 thousand per year more after taxes to break even (ignoring military benefits which only really come into play if you stay in long enough).

Stupidest thing I did was not go home to Alaska. It will cost me upwards of 100k in additional loan payments. Thankfully I can afford to do that, bhating is painful and that would sure pay for a nice boat.

-pod
 
The stats are all right skewed because they include the military students. They typically have a bit more of them at the expensive schools (~10% of the class). I know the majority of the c/o 2013 at my school have ~-220 unless they are receiving another form of support or working part time. My guess is that puts the true avg for that class at ~270 upon graduation.

I agree. There's no possible way, nowadays, one could come out of med school with less than 200k. Very few of us receive financial support from parents, and scholarships in med school are almost nonexistent. I'm looking at graduating in 2017 with +400k (only ~45k from undergrad). I have no other option.

If I were single I would totally do military medicine. Not only because of debt-free schooling, but because I love this country and want to serve it. However, I love my wife and kid more.

Blade and other politically well-informed individuals, what do you recommend that we do? I mean, as pre-meds and med students, we are very helpless. We have no influence on the system, or do we?
 
I agree. There's no possible way, nowadays, one could come out of med school with less than 200k. Very few of us receive financial support from parents, and scholarships in med school are almost nonexistent. I'm looking at graduating in 2017 with +400k (only ~45k from undergrad). I have no other option.

If I were single I would totally do military medicine. Not only because of debt-free schooling, but because I love this country and want to serve it. However, I love my wife and kid more.

Blade and other politically well-informed individuals, what do you recommend that we do? I mean, as pre-meds and med students, we are very helpless. We have no influence on the system, or do we?


Wow. I honestly had no idea the debt could get this high. $400K?? Really?? Are you going to Tufts?;)

My advice is to study your arse off. Study like nobody else in your class. You must match in a good specialty.
 
Anyone want to explain in detail how one hypothetically borrows $80-$100K per year for 4 years. Outline the source of funding and interest rates.
 
Circa 2015, odds are the Debt / GDP may be 150% - the point at which Greece defaulted. At that point, a lot of things in the healthcare system will be much different by necessity. Certainly, people will be expected to pay more for things. If you look at the history of countries that go through "managed default", things go on but there is high unemployment and inflation for some years, and then hopefully things pick up again. That is our future unless we pay off the debt soon..I think things may be like in Japan where there is a "lost decade".

I would prefer to give it a career try in medicine as I enjoy parts of it, but I do not think it hurts to have at least some backup options in mind.
What backup options exist then ? Well, I am no candidate for an MBA and would not get a JD, so I have thought of various things. I would consider going back to dental school - yes that is not perfect either (they have some of our issues, but overall feel much better about their future because they are less reliant on government etc)...there are entrepreneurial things too to think about..those are some of my main ideas..I have friends getting MBA's, etc...

I can tell you my situation. This is from a private US medical school. My parents paid about 10000 a year for tuition, and my loans were about 45,000 for 4 years. My government loans are approx 160,000 and the majority of my loans, they are actively accumulating at 6.8%. Living frugally I will have 100 K in debt by the end of residency, but nothing in savings.

I have no family and do not plan to. I am focusing on my faith and other interests - I will be able to pay off my debt one or two years out, since I am happy living life now.
 
Blade and other politically well-informed individuals, what do you recommend that we do? I mean, as pre-meds and med students, we are very helpless. We have no influence on the system, or do we?

I would tell youmtomlook up Jet's post in the FM forum for some answers but that would get me in trouble Suomi won't tell you to do this.

Instead, I'll answer like Blade did. Forget the primary care arena.
 
Anyone want to explain in detail how one hypothetically borrows $80-$100K per year for 4 years. Outline the source of funding and interest rates.

1 year...
Fall:
Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $9,447.00; Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan Fall $15,920.00

Winter:
Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $9,447.00; Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan $15,920.00

Summer:
Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan Summer $12,604.00; Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $8,894.00

Direct Unsubsidized 6.8%
Direct Subsidized 6.8%
Grad/Prof PLUS 7.9%
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/studentloans.jsp#05
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PlusLoansGradProfstudents.jsp
 
Anyone want to explain in detail how one hypothetically borrows $80-$100K per year for 4 years. Outline the source of funding and interest rates.

Stafford loans @ 6.8% fixed for the first ~$10,000
GradPLUS loans @ 7.9% for the remainder up to the school's reported cost of attendance.

Also, starting in 2012, Stafford loans are no longer subsidized for graduate students while in school. There used to be a portion that was subsidized, so no interest would accrue until repayment started. Now interest continues to accrue (and capitalize) until repayment begins.

I have 30k from a public Florida undergrad and 150k from AA school, but that 170k became 170k by the time repayment started because of interest accrual and capitalization. The average interest rate for all of my loans is around 7%.
 
1 year...
Fall:
Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $9,447.00; Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan Fall $15,920.00

Winter:
Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $9,447.00; Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan $15,920.00

Summer:
Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan Summer $12,604.00; Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $8,894.00

Direct Unsubsidized 6.8%
Direct Subsidized 6.8%
Grad/Prof PLUS 7.9%
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/studentloans.jsp#05
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PlusLoansGradProfstudents.jsp

Starting this Fall will interest accrue on all your new loans immediately?
 
On the other hand, the military would own your AS5... which doesn't seem that freeing to me.

Be born rich
Owe money
Owe time

... pick one. :)


What are the numbers like if you compare mil salary for (what is it) four years compared to paying off student loan debt over the first four years of practice. I guess it would take 25-50 thousand per year more after taxes to break even (ignoring military benefits which only really come into play if you stay in long enough).

.mil pay for HPSP "scholarship" recipients during the usual 4 payback years is in the $110-150K range per year, with some variability depending on specialty and where you're stationed (part of that is a housing allowance which varies by zip code).

There's a catch for the Navy though, most HPSP'ers don't get civilian deferments for residency, come on active duty for PGY1, and then get stuck serving GMO time for 2-3 years (sub $100K/year). Then they can:
- do a residency in the .mil, which may reset their years-owed to 3-5 years
- serve out the 4 year med school payback as a GMO, get out, and then do residency

For most, staying in until retirement benefits are earned doesn't make sense, unless they have credit for prior service, or enter via USUHS.

Those who join the military for the money usually wind up disappointed ...
 
1 year...
Fall:
Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $9,447.00; Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan Fall $15,920.00

Winter:
Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $9,447.00; Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan $15,920.00

Summer:
Direct Subsidized Loan $4,229.00; Direct Unsub Loan Summer $12,604.00; Direct Grad/Prof PLUS Loan $8,894.00

Direct Unsubsidized 6.8%
Direct Subsidized 6.8%
Grad/Prof PLUS 7.9%
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/studentloans.jsp#05
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PlusLoansGradProfstudents.jsp


Thank you for the link. It's even worse than I imagined. They screw you on the interest rate (exceedingly high) and nail you on high disbursement fees on those plus loans. I guess these high fees and rates are to offset all the dead beats who won't be paying back those loans
 
To make things worse, people who graduated just a few years ago could consolidate their loans and get the rate down to like 3%. Those days are gone. ~7% is as good as it gets.

I'm looking at 220k in loan totals upon graduation plus I don't know how much interest that has accrued since M1. I go to a DO school with middle range tuition, though its increased 5% a year. I also had 20k from the sale of the house I owned before school. Had I sold it about a year sooner, I probably would have had another 20-30k to put toward school. That would have been nice.

Its amazing what some people do for loans though. I know someone that had a spouse that worked FT as a nurse and still took out the max loans each year. That baffled me. Others have gone on expensive trips, bought motorcycles, new cars, and spent money on all kinds of other stuff.:confused:
 
Starting this Fall will interest accrue on all your new loans immediately?

For all of the unsubsidized loans, the interest accrues from when it was disbursed..

Its amazing what some people do for loans though. I know someone that had a spouse that worked FT as a nurse and still took out the max loans each year. That baffled me. Others have gone on expensive trips, bought motorcycles, new cars, and spent money on all kinds of other stuff.:confused:

It is ridiculous.. the student parking lot is full of BMWs, and Mercs..I've even seen a tesla roadster. What's even worse is this kid in my class bought a new Patek Philippe.. coming from the midwest, I just figured ppl in FL had more money, but who knows...Tuition is 42K and you can max out your federal loans to 85k
 
I went the D.O. route also and ended up with >$300k in debt at the finish. All on me, nothing from the parents, no military. It's on my back and that's how I prefer it, though a little lighter load would have been nice.

I too plan to stay flexible with career plans... or at least as flexible as the little lady and our son will allow ;) I don't think "staying single" is necessary as a financial management tool. Life is just too freaking short! We're loving the family life and we're not going to let this control our decisions. Having said that, obviously the sooner we're out from under this burden the better.

My thought is that in 15-20 years, if we keep on this pace as Blade has suggested, the only doctors who are going to be able to afford to practice in the U.S. are foreign graduates who have ZERO student debt because their educational systems are socialized (Dermies aside of course).
 
Medical students are given the maximum stafford amount for med school loans (~$40K / yr). The COA at most schools is beyond this, and how the student makes up the difference is left as an exercise to the reader, although GradPLUS is a popular option. These are not your father's staffords either. Starting in 2012 the 6.8% interest starts accruing on day 1 of med school.

Up to about $300K the loans aren't that difficult to pay off, even on a private FP paycheck. Beyond $300K things get a little iffy. If the loans truly become unmanageable, the debtor will just remain on IBR, paying 10% of their discretionary income for 25 years until the loan is forgiven. So it might be best to think of it as a 10% surtax on income at that point.

Also, there is a quirk in the average reported indebtedness - this reported figure is usually the mean of the debt of the students that chose to take out student debt. Many wealthy students took the free subsidized stafford loans and just paid them right back after graduation. But starting in 2012 there are no subsidized staffords for graduate students, so these students will take zero student debt, and the average student indebtedness figure will skyrocket over the next 4 years to a less misleading value.
 
Many wealthy students took the free subsidized stafford loans and just paid them right back after graduation.

I took out a stafford loan as an undergrad (mid-1990s), and because of my parents' income, wasn't eligible for a subsidized loan. How are wealthy students getting subsidized loans? Have the rules changed?
 
I took out a stafford loan as an undergrad (mid-1990s), and because of my parents' income, wasn't eligible for a subsidized loan. How are wealthy students getting subsidized loans? Have the rules changed?

When you apply for loans in grad school you are considered an independent (even if your parents still claim you as a dependent). So it's pretty easy to get up to your COA from the govt.
 
I took out a stafford loan as an undergrad (mid-1990s), and because of my parents' income, wasn't eligible for a subsidized loan. How are wealthy students getting subsidized loans? Have the rules changed?

Subsidized loans for all graduate students have been phased out starting this year anyway, so it's a non-issue. All loans are un-subsidized from this point on.

The amount of surprise in this thread is pretty funny. Some of you guys have been out of the loop for a while huh?
 
It is ridiculous.. the student parking lot is full of BMWs, and Mercs..I've even seen a tesla roadster. What's even worse is this kid in my class bought a new Patek Philippe.. coming from the midwest, I just figured ppl in FL had more money, but who knows...Tuition is 42K and you can max out your federal loans to 85k

Wow. We didn't have anything that blatant in the lot while I was on campus (been gone pretty much all M4). I don't care if someones parents buy them some expensive car, but doing that kind of thing on your own while a student shows amazingly bad judgement.
 
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