Med School Tuition is Insane

[Silent Cool]

300k with the buying power of 200. And Higher taxes on the over $200 portion.
The futures so bright, I gotta' wear shares [to hide my tears].

If that's true then it is definitely not worth it.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[pgg]

If that's true then it is definitely not worth it.

But what's the alternative? Another job that pays $100K but with the buying power of $70K?

 

[Silent Cool]

Something else without debt, or much less of it. As it turns out, Obamacare looks like it is a done deal as of this moment. Definitely a game-changer.

 

[PikminOC]

So, with ObamaCare likely to be ruled Constitutional (except for the mandate) I was wondering about these insane medical school tuition costs. Is there no end in sight? Can these schools keep raising tuition costs every single year? Is there no limit to what they can charge?

I understand the free market principles at work here but is it really free market when the govt decides what your services are worth and you have little choice but accept that fee?

The way I see it is that a young person starting a private college today followed by a private medical school could easily spend $350-400K on his/her education.

Even if the cost is $250K (a more realistic number) how is a family practice physician who sees Medicaid/Medicare patients supposed to earn a living and pay that back?

Surely a socialized system with capped reimbursement should consider the cost of educating the physician? Or, must the system totally break-down before this problem gets addressed?

Do any of you med students see this as issue in your career? Are you concerned about the debt vs reward ratio going forward under ObamaCare?

With the number of CMS patients skyrocketing over the next 20 years the issue of medical school debt vs govt limited reimbursement is a real one.

Yet, medical school still remains extremely competitive and Residency positions are like Gold.

It won't matter as nurses will become the 'physician' the masses will be evaluated and treated by.

 

[hoyden]

So I'm better off sticking it out and paying back 600K?

I might be wrong, but since the problem of the national debt is NOT going to be addressed and considering obvious indifference of the left to it's existence, one can make conclusion that the way the left is going to solve it was done before - in other countries
Your 600K might not be 600K when you will have to deal with it.

I won't drop from the medschool. I would go thorough, try to get to the most competitive specialty you can and get a well paying job - it might take you a decade before you will start it and the situation will be different than now - it does not mean better

 

[Silent Cool]

I might be wrong, but since the problem of the national debt is NOT going to be addressed and considering obvious indifference of the left to it's existence, one can make conclusion that the way the left is going to solve it was done before - in other countries
Your 600K might not be 600K when you will have to deal with it.

I won't drop from the medschool. I would go thorough, try to get to the most competitive specialty you can and get a well paying job - it might take you a decade before you will start it and the situation will be different than now - it does not mean better

This is another problem. What if I can't match Anesthesia? As a DO, a fields like Ophtho and Derm are out. IM fellowships will drive up the debt even more because they take so damn long. I mean, anes is probably the best bet. But, god forbid, what if I can't match and have to scramble into IM or FM or something???

 

[bronx43]

This is another problem. What if I can't match Anesthesia? As a DO, a fields like Ophtho and Derm are out. IM fellowships will drive up the debt even more because they take so damn long. I mean, anes is probably the best bet. But, god forbid, what if I can't match and have to scramble into IM or FM or something???

What's wrong with IM if you can get into a decent program? Lest you forget, there are still fields like cardiology, GI, heme/onc, allergy/immunology, and pulmonary/CC that have high income potentials. The fellowships are 2-3 years in addition to 3 years of IM, but that's only 1-2 years more than a gas residency. Also, don't forget that some hospitalist gigs in smaller cities can be extremely enticing from a compensation standpoint - and that's straight out of IM residency.

 

[gasattack3]

It is absolutely ridiculous the expenses we accrue going through this process. I can't think of ANY other advanced country which operates this way. No wonder we become so focused on money when we get out.

America is capitalism gone completely unchecked. I'm not sure that's the way it was supposed to be.

 

[Silent Cool]

It is absolutely ridiculous the expenses we accrue going through this process. I can't think of ANY other advanced country which operates this way. No wonder we become so focused on money when we get out.

America is capitalism gone completely unchecked. I'm not sure that's the way it was supposed to be.

Yup, it's screwed up. I used to actually think about the medicine--what field am I actually interested in, etc.. All I think about now is, "what will make paying off ridiculous loans the easiest?"

 

[Silent Cool]

What's wrong with IM if you can get into a decent program? Lest you forget, there are still fields like cardiology, GI, heme/onc, allergy/immunology, and pulmonary/CC that have high income potentials. The fellowships are 2-3 years in addition to 3 years of IM, but that's only 1-2 years more than a gas residency. Also, don't forget that some hospitalist gigs in smaller cities can be extremely enticing from a compensation standpoint - and that's straight out of IM residency.

Yes, there are decent fellowships, but that's even MORE time for the interest to accrue, and I have to actually get in to these fellowships, many of which are very competitive. It's also questionable whether the opportunity cost of something like A/I is worth the extra 2 years. They don't make that much, and spots are few and far between. Yes, hospitalist gigs are a possibility. With some of the loan repayment options they have, that might actually be a better option than Gas. It all just seems like misery with absurd loans.

 

[Silent Cool]

Yes, there are decent fellowships, but that's even MORE time for the interest to accrue, and I have to actually get in to these fellowships, many of which are very competitive. It's also questionable whether the opportunity cost of something like A/I is worth the extra 2 years. They don't make that much, and spots are few and far between. Yes, hospitalist gigs are a possibility. With some of the loan repayment options they have, that might actually be a better option than Gas. It all just seems like misery with absurd loans.

I peruse AuntMinnie from time to time and WRT being a hospitalist, I came across this thread:

http://www.auntminnie.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=362686&high=i+would+rather+die

pretty funny.

 

[bronx43]

Yes, there are decent fellowships, but that's even MORE time for the interest to accrue, and I have to actually get in to these fellowships, many of which are very competitive. It's also questionable whether the opportunity cost of something like A/I is worth the extra 2 years. They don't make that much, and spots are few and far between. Yes, hospitalist gigs are a possibility. With some of the loan repayment options they have, that might actually be a better option than Gas. It all just seems like misery with absurd loans.

Actually, A/I makes very good money. Don't let the salary surveys fool you, because many of the allergists work part time. As long as allergy testing and allergy shots are reimbursed as procedures, you can BANK if you put in 50 hours a week in a decent practice.

 

[path or no path]

Actually, A/I makes very good money. Don't let the salary surveys fool you, because many of the allergists work part time. As long as allergy testing and allergy shots are reimbursed as procedures, you can BANK if you put in 50 hours a week in a decent practice.

what's BANK these days? And what about SoCal? Can you still make good $ in A/I in a saturated market?

 

[bronx43]

what's BANK these days? And what about SoCal? Can you still make good $ in A/I in a saturated market?

I think A/I, moreso than other IM specialties, depends on your practice. A family friend of mine is operating his own chain of clinics in a medium sized Midwest city, and he's pulling in about $1 mil. Keep in mind that he's more of a business owner than solely a practitioner. He told me that he's paying this one lady $250k for about 30 hours a week.

 

[Silent Cool]

Interesting that you bring up A/I. I messaged an A/I doc a while back and here is what he said:

SC:
I will try to answer your question based on my estimation.

Where do you see it going in the future? I know that there are many who say that allergy is a dying profession since PCP's can take care of allergies. I highly disagree. I do not know of any PCP's who are willing to take on severe persistent asthma, food allergy, chronic urticaria or immunodeficient patients. This takes too much time for them. I see it being viable and being highly sought after. Just ask the fellows who are graduating with many job offers.

What separates you from a general internist that allows you to treat many common A/I cases better? Internist do not know how to do skin testing and prescribe immunotherapy. Typically, internist will handle DM, HTN, A fib and then allergy at the end due to limited time. I know, I used to be an internist. Now, I can actually take the time to talk to them about allergies. The thing that I did not like about being an internist is that I felt like I was working so hard to control their blood pressure but patients don't really feel any different. But allergic patients are one of the happiest patients since they feel better. I like this alot and makes my job enjoyable.

Do you see more GP docs taking on A/I cases instead of referring out to you? Some will do. Some don't refer their severe persistent asthmatic patients because they don't want to "loose" their patients to me. I see patients who have been on oral prednisone every other month with poor managment. There are biologic agents such as Xolair that I prescribe that does wonders. This I can't change but just hope that GP's will know their limits. Like for me, I will treat rashes as much as I can but if it is not getting better, I send them to dermatolgoy. I do not want my patients to suffer when I can't help them. I know when to say, help. I am not embarrased about that.

Where are most of the jobs in your field? Is the job market generally good? (I know that the number of fellowship spots annually is fairly low). Yes, there are less fellowships offered in the US because of funding. Acutally, this means that each fellow will get more job offers. I am in greater Seattle area. I had 3 job offers to choose from. If you want to go to NYC or LA, jobs are always hard to find since it is highly sough after. I know a guy who went to Montana and is making lots of bucks. Job market is great.

What is the practice environment like? Is solo practice feasible? Yes. But most like to be with 1-2 partners so that you can cover when on vacation. I know of many solo allergist.

Best of luck. I am not blowing smoke up your you know what. I just am excited about allergy and would like to see young doctors get excited like me. It is a hidden secret.

Hope that helps.

 

[Silent Cool]

Interesting that you bring up A/I. I messaged an A/I doc a while back and here is what he said:

SC:
I will try to answer your question based on my estimation.

Where do you see it going in the future? I know that there are many who say that allergy is a dying profession since PCP's can take care of allergies. I highly disagree. I do not know of any PCP's who are willing to take on severe persistent asthma, food allergy, chronic urticaria or immunodeficient patients. This takes too much time for them. I see it being viable and being highly sought after. Just ask the fellows who are graduating with many job offers.

What separates you from a general internist that allows you to treat many common A/I cases better? Internist do not know how to do skin testing and prescribe immunotherapy. Typically, internist will handle DM, HTN, A fib and then allergy at the end due to limited time. I know, I used to be an internist. Now, I can actually take the time to talk to them about allergies. The thing that I did not like about being an internist is that I felt like I was working so hard to control their blood pressure but patients don't really feel any different. But allergic patients are one of the happiest patients since they feel better. I like this alot and makes my job enjoyable.

Do you see more GP docs taking on A/I cases instead of referring out to you? Some will do. Some don't refer their severe persistent asthmatic patients because they don't want to "loose" their patients to me. I see patients who have been on oral prednisone every other month with poor managment. There are biologic agents such as Xolair that I prescribe that does wonders. This I can't change but just hope that GP's will know their limits. Like for me, I will treat rashes as much as I can but if it is not getting better, I send them to dermatolgoy. I do not want my patients to suffer when I can't help them. I know when to say, help. I am not embarrased about that.

Where are most of the jobs in your field? Is the job market generally good? (I know that the number of fellowship spots annually is fairly low). Yes, there are less fellowships offered in the US because of funding. Acutally, this means that each fellow will get more job offers. I am in greater Seattle area. I had 3 job offers to choose from. If you want to go to NYC or LA, jobs are always hard to find since it is highly sough after. I know a guy who went to Montana and is making lots of bucks. Job market is great.

What is the practice environment like? Is solo practice feasible? Yes. But most like to be with 1-2 partners so that you can cover when on vacation. I know of many solo allergist.

Best of luck. I am not blowing smoke up your you know what. I just am excited about allergy and would like to see young doctors get excited like me. It is a hidden secret.

Hope that helps.

Here were my questions:

Hi AA,

I just read an old post of yours on a thread about Allergy/Immunology. Thanks for a good overview. I'm wondering about a couple of issues regarding your field:

Where do you see it going in the future?
What separates you from a general internist that allows you to treat many common A/I cases better?
Do you see more GP docs taking on A/I cases instead of referring out to you?
Where are most of the jobs in your field? Is the job market generally good? (I know that the number of fellowship spots annually is fairly low).
What is the practice environment like? Is solo practice feasible?

Thanks a lot for your input on these questions, I appreciate it.
-sc

 

[Silent Cool]

Only problem with allergy is that there are very few spots each year. I'm also a DO, and l think last year a total of 5 DO's matched A/I. It's pretty rough.

 

[Silent Cool]

I started another thread on the dental forums. 1 million dollars to be an orthodontist. Interesting.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=974639

 

[cincincyreds]

To save costs, I heard NYU med school was going to try a 3 year medical school curriculum.

 

[doctor712]

Interesting tidbit: US Medical Students have the option of going to med school in....Cuba. For free. 6 year curriculum and the Cubans pay for EVERYONE'S MED SCHOOL (and yes, EVEN AMERICANS!) No debt. 0. 90 miles from Florida.

If you are 22, no kids, open to thinking outside the box, and having a med school curriculum that includes integrative medicine, think about CUBA.

I would do this in a heartbeat if I were young and single.

D712

 

[pgg]

To save costs, I heard NYU med school was going to try a 3 year medical school curriculum.

Are there still any US schools that do combined undergrad/MD programs?

I always wondered how they identified high school students that would succeed (and stick with) those programs.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Interesting tidbit: US Medical Students have the option of going to med school in....Cuba. For free. 6 year curriculum and the Cubans pay for EVERYONE'S MED SCHOOL (and yes, EVEN AMERICANS!) No debt. 0. 90 miles from Florida.

If you are 22, no kids, open to thinking outside the box, and having a med school curriculum that includes integrative medicine, think about CUBA.

I would do this in a heartbeat if I were young and single.

D712

How's their education standard? What about residency? isn't it becoming increasingly difficult to land a residency position in the US if you studied abroad?

In Saudi Arabia, my native country, medical education is free and on top of that students receive a monthly allowance equivalent to $400/month. It's also a six-year curriculum. However, I want to practice in the US, so I'm willing to graduate with a 400K debt. It's a huge trade off, so one must weight the pros and cons before committing to any decision.

 

[smq123]

Are there still any US schools that do combined undergrad/MD programs?

I always wondered how they identified high school students that would succeed (and stick with) those programs.

A couple. Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia still has an accelerated program with Penn State (2 years at Penn State, 4 years at Jefferson). That's the main one that I know of.

There are a few guaranteed program, where you are guaranteed admission to med school (provided you get a decent GPA), but it's a full 8 year track.

 

[Rippy087]

Are there still any US schools that do combined undergrad/MD programs?

I always wondered how they identified high school students that would succeed (and stick with) those programs.

BU Med has a 7 year combined undergrad/MD program with guaranteed acceptance. I think you just need to have a 3.3 GPA and 30 MCAT through the program. Extremely competitive to get into though.

 

[doctor712]

How's their education standard? What about residency? isn't it becoming increasingly difficult to land a residency position in the US if you studied abroad?

In Saudi Arabia, my native country, medical education is free and on top of that students receive a monthly allowance equivalent to $400/month. It's also a six-year curriculum. However, I want to practice in the US, so I'm willing to graduate with a 400K debt. It's a huge trade off, so one must weight the pros and cons before committing to any decision.

These were not students, in Cuba, the Americans, that couldn't get into med school, these were really qualified students who CHOSE Cuba. As with any foreign grad, you'll have to take the extra ECFMG exam and match into the US as a foreign grad, period. I am told their education standard is very high in Cuba.

good luck!
D712

 

[Noegrus]

These were not students, in Cuba, the Americans, that couldn't get into med school, these were really qualified students who CHOSE Cuba. As with any foreign grad, you'll have to take the extra ECFMG exam and match into the US as a foreign grad, period. I am told their education standard is very high in Cuba.

good luck!
D712

There is no 'extra' ecfmg exam for anyone. Only DOs have to take the USMLEs in addition to COMLEX. Presently I/FMGs have to take USMLE steps just like any random MS student and they can enter GME.
What maybe questionable about Cuba is their language of teaching/medical terminology and its relevance to the non-spanish speaking population in our medical settings.

 

[doctor712]

There is no 'extra' ecfmg exam for anyone. Only DOs have to take the USMLEs in addition to COMLEX. Presently I/FMGs have to take USMLE steps just like any random MS student and they can enter GME.
What maybe questionable about Cuba is their language of teaching/medical terminology and its relevance to the non-spanish speaking population in our medical settings.

What do you mean? The USMLE and ECFMG exam are two different beasts. USMLE is for everyone in the US, whether you got here by a US or foreign medical school.

The ECFMG exam (FMG=foreign medical grad) is given for those ONLY who went to medical school overseas, outside the US, and came here after med school. So, it is an extra exam (specific to foreign med school grads). If you goto Harvard you don't take the ECFMG exam, if you goto Cuba or Brazil or UK or Mexico or Carib etc, you DO take that exam...

Someone clarify if I'm missing something here or am not being clear...

This is not a DO/MD issue. It's a foreign med school grad issue.

Continued success,
D712

 

[IlDestriero]

The ECFMG certification exam is the USMLE steps 1-3. It may have been different before, but that's what they're doing now. I think their value is that they confirm the validity of your credentials as a graduate of a foreign medical school and then store that information for future use.
There might be an English proficiency exam as well, but I would think the USMLE would take care of that for you.

 

[doctor712]

Aha, this has changed in the last few years I guess.

Are you certain though, their site says:

ECFMG was founded in 1956 to assess, through a program of certification, whether international medical graduates (IMGs) are ready to enter residency or fellowship programs in the United States that are accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). ECFMG Certification is a requirement for IMGs who wish to enter such programs. ECFMG Certification is also one of the eligibility requirements for IMGs to take Step 3 of the three-step United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE).

Don't you have to pass the ECFMG exam to take Step 3? I had an IMG friend just hop through this hurdle. Now I'm confused but defer to IlD of course...

D712

 

[doctor712]

IlD is spot on it...

"An international medical student/graduate (IMG) begins the ECFMG certification process by applying to ECFMG for a USMLE/ECFMG Identification Number. Once an IMG has obtained this number, he/she can use it to complete the Application for ECFMG Certification. Once the Application for ECFMG Certification has been submitted, the IMG may then apply for examination.

To be certified by ECFMG, an IMG must meet both examination and medical education credential requirements. These requirements include passing performance on medical science and clinical skills examinations—USMLE Step 1, Step 2 Clinical Knowledge (CK), and Step 2 Clinical Skills (CS) are the exams currently administered that satisfy these requirements—and primary-source verification of the IMG's medical education credentials, including the final medical diploma, final medical school transcript, and transcript(s) to document transferred academic credits."

This is different than before...I think. I'm tired.

D712

 

[IlDestriero]

I have a few friends that went to foreign schools. It's just the USMLE. I think they're trying to make themselves sound important. (relevant)
They appear to coordinate it for you, for an additional fee of course.

 

[doctor712]

There's always a fee...always a fee...

D712

 

[Dwindlin]

Are there still any US schools that do combined undergrad/MD programs?

I always wondered how they identified high school students that would succeed (and stick with) those programs.

NEOMED in northern Ohio recruits primarily from B.S./M.D. They only accept ~20 traditional candidates a year. If I remember correctly you have to do very well on the ACT (north of 32+ I think), plus solid GPA, letters of rec, etc. If you're accepted you can attend first two years at one of four undergrad institutions, and you have to maintain 3.5+ gpa and I think a 28 on the MCAT to keep your spot. Then you do standard 4 years of med school on the actual NEOMED campus.

 

[Noegrus]

I have a few friends that went to foreign schools. It's just the USMLE. I think they're trying to make themselves sound important. (relevant)
They appear to coordinate it for you, for an additional fee of course.

I have friends who went to foreign med schools. The USMLE is exactly the same for everyone. Ecfmg just does the credentialing for them and checks if they are eligible to sit for the usmle etc. There is no separate test for English.

 

[pgg]

There is no 'extra' ecfmg exam for anyone. Only DOs have to take the USMLEs in addition to COMLEX. Presently I/FMGs have to take USMLE steps just like any random MS student and they can enter GME.
What maybe questionable about Cuba is their language of teaching/medical terminology and its relevance to the non-spanish speaking population in our medical settings.

The problem is residency. It's hard enough for Carribean MD grads to find good residencies in the US. I can only imagine the hurdles a Cuba grad would face.

I can count on both hands the number of people I personally know who completed medical school (and residency training) in foreign non-1st-world countries who came to the US and chose to simply work in healthcare related fields (not as doctors!) because of the hurdles to entering practice. It's not a trivial undertaking.

Intentionally going abroad for medical school, when you have domestic options, when your goal is residency and practice in the US is just stupid. There's no other way to put it, stupid. Naive doesn't even begin to describe it. Possible exception for some highly regarded European institutions, but even then you're putting yourself behind the 8 ball when it comes to doing residency in the US.

Even debt avoidance - a big deal - is not a reason to torpedo your residency prospects this way.

I can't believe we're even discussing the sanity of going to Cuba for medical school.

 

[Noegrus]

Nevertheless it is an interesting discussion because until 5 or so years ago, it used to be imgs from third world countries that filled up the gap between primary care residency spots and candidates. You will never have imgs matching into ortho and derm, but even to this day, many, if not most im, FM,PEDs, and psych positions in inner cities, the boonies, and middle-of-nowhere locations are taken up by caribs, imgs, and DOs. When I was interviewing for prelim med positions this year, at every single community hospital I went to, the prelims were all US grads and categorical IM residents were all imgs/Caribs. Some of them were great hospitals, in beautiful settings, but weren't affiliated with academic medical centers.
So, if all one wants is to get into IM somewhere, anywhere, and be a hospitalist or an FM practitioner after 3 years, then you can still do it coming from a foreign med school. You won't have to care about crappy pay in the long run because you wont have med school loans to pay back. Ofc, now the noctors are taking up the slack in demand and supply of pcps so the situation might be very different in five to six years when the new MSs graduate from offshore schools and look for spots.

 

[doctor712]

The problem is residency. It's hard enough for Carribean MD grads to find good residencies in the US. I can only imagine the hurdles a Cuba grad would face.

I can count on both hands the number of people I personally know who completed medical school (and residency training) in foreign non-1st-world countries who came to the US and chose to simply work in healthcare related fields (not as doctors!) because of the hurdles to entering practice. It's not a trivial undertaking.

Intentionally going abroad for medical school, when you have domestic options, when your goal is residency and practice in the US is just stupid. There's no other way to put it, stupid. Naive doesn't even begin to describe it. Possible exception for some highly regarded European institutions, but even then you're putting yourself behind the 8 ball when it comes to doing residency in the US.

Even debt avoidance - a big deal - is not a reason to torpedo your residency prospects this way.

I can't believe we're even discussing the sanity of going to Cuba for medical school.

Is your problem here with Cuba, being ahead 300k in med school loans, or studying abroad in a program that addresses international health, CAM and integrative medicine like few American schools do? My former boss who just got back from Cuba, said these 30 US students wanted a more world view of medicine not really taught in the US.
We both know all of these students will match, this isn't some shoddy Caribbean program that costs 300k where u have to fight to get a PEDS clerkship scheduled. It's a state run MD program... For FREE. What's your issue with this PGG, politics? Are u against the embargo? Cuba has accomplished so much with so little. Seems shortsighted to say med school in Cuba for free is a silly idea.

D712

 

[wanttoreadforum]

Is your problem here with Cuba, being ahead 300k in med school loans, or studying abroad in a program that addresses international health, CAM and integrative medicine like few American schools do? My former boss who just got back from Cuba, said these 30 US students wanted a more world view of medicine not really taught in the US.
We both know all of these students will match, this isn't some shoddy Caribbean program that costs 300k where u have to fight to get a PEDS clerkship scheduled. It's a state run MD program... For FREE. What's your issue with this PGG, politics? Are u against the embargo? Cuba has accomplished so much with so little. Seems shortsighted to say med school in Cuba for free is a silly idea.

D712

You'll be applying in the match as an IMG. Period. The end. That's literally all you need to know.

With little exception, you are immediately excluding yourself from competitive specialties such as ophto, ortho, derm, ENT, etc. You can beat your fists and complain that because it's a "state run MD program" that it shouldn't be the case, but it is. I don't care if you have a 250 on your Step I; unless you have serious connections you will never match in any of the aforementioned specialties.

If a student wants to see how things are done abroad, then they can travel abroad through Doctors Without Borders, UNICEF, etc. to get more exposure. If they want to know the politics of healthcare in other countries, they can read books. But to put forth the proposition that it would be wise for one to voluntarily go overseas to earn their medical degree when they have options in the USA is ludicrous.

You can look at the charting outcomes document and say "well I'd be special, I'm a Cuban graduate, not an Indian or Carib grad, so I'll be fine!", but you'd be very, very wrong.

 

[doctor712]

You'll be applying in the match as an IMG. Period. The end. That's literally all you need to know.

With little exception, you are immediately excluding yourself from competitive specialties such as ophto, ortho, derm, ENT, etc. You can beat your fists and complain that because it's a "state run MD program" that it shouldn't be the case, but it is. I don't care if you have a 250 on your Step I; unless you have serious connections you will never match in any of the aforementioned specialties.

If a student wants to see how things are done abroad, then they can travel abroad through Doctors Without Borders, UNICEF, etc. to get more exposure. If they want to know the politics of healthcare in other countries, they can read books. But to put forth the proposition that it would be wise for one to voluntarily go overseas to earn their medical degree when they have options in the USA is ludicrous.

You can look at the charting outcomes document and say "well I'd be special, I'm a Cuban graduate, not an Indian or Carib grad, so I'll be fine!", but you'd be very, very wrong.

I agree with you, but most of these current students, I'm told, want things like IM, ID, FM and PM&R... I understand your point, but I think the world is their Oyster and they will do fine as IMGs either here or elsewhere. Young, unencumbered with debt, IMGs, yes, granted. I just don't think this option is ludicrous in this situation, they are saving 250K, after interest, what, 400K? It's calculated, not for everyone, but not a bad choice in my mind. It's a select few and I think they'll be fine. If you want to match in IR, maybe not...but for these kids, I think it's a great opportunity. I'm not exactly saying that Cuba should be an alternative for the 40,000 kids a year applying to med school. n.b. I know more than a few DERM residents, one close friend, IMG, who matched into a great Derm program. Did Medical School in India. She'll end up doing derm path. Against the odds, sure.

D712

 

[pgg]

You'll be applying in the match as an IMG. Period. The end. That's literally all you need to know.

That, and this.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

If that's true then it is definitely not worth it.

But what's the alternative? Another job that pays $100K but with the buying power of $70K?

+1 for pgg's comment. On average, med school is still the best return on investment possible, except for maybe a top 10 MBA or JD. 600K is a bit though.

Silent Cool is kinda locked in, but for those really concerned about debt, move to TX or NC, or any other state that heavily supports their med schools. Work for 1-2 years to gain residency. Get your tuition for ~$15K/yr + 20K in living expenses -> ~150K at the end. Very reasonable for an essentially guaranteed $200K/yr minimum salary for life.

 

[Dwindlin]

I agree with you, but most of these current students, I'm told, want things like IM, ID, FM and PM&R... I understand your point, but I think the world is their Oyster and they will do fine as IMGs either here or elsewhere. Young, unencumbered with debt, IMGs, yes, granted. I just don't think this option is ludicrous in this situation, they are saving 250K, after interest, what, 400K? It's calculated, not for everyone, but not a bad choice in my mind. It's a select few and I think they'll be fine. If you want to match in IR, maybe not...but for these kids, I think it's a great opportunity. I'm not exactly saying that Cuba should be an alternative for the 40,000 kids a year applying to med school. n.b. I know more than a few DERM residents, one close friend, IMG, who matched into a great Derm program. Did Medical School in India. She'll end up doing derm path. Against the odds, sure.

D712

I question whether you realize how against the odds it is. This is seriously terrible advise for anyone who isn't absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, sure they want to do primary care.

 

[doctor712]

I question whether you realize how against the odds it is. This is seriously terrible advise for anyone who isn't absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, sure they want to do primary care.

i agree, but if primary care, like the specialties I listed, i really think it's a choice. many many kids goto Caribb schools and match (and yes, many go there and don't match), however when you look at the top places, say Ross and St. Georges, almost everyone matches. I would imagine Cuba to be similar. Anyway, follow your gut people...!

To be clear, the best chance of matching in a US residency, is attending a US medical school. I feel for a select few, this is a fine option. Anyway.

D712

 

[NeuroAP86]

I stumbled upon this thread after I began stressing out about how much debt I will be in as soon as I graduate. I went through undergrad with less than 30k total as I lived at home and was on scholarships. Then medical school hit, I go a DO school and tuition started at 42k but now up to 47k. I have lived very modest and not tried to take much in loans unless i absolutely need it. I'm finishing my 3rd and just hit the 200k mark, with another year to go, I'd say that my total loans will be like 260k including undergrad once I finish. I was always thinking of anesthesia for the money but sort of gave up on that since I did not enjoy it all. Now I have decided on Neurology which does pay more than primary care but not that much. What has killed me the most is that tuition went up 5% each year and grad students no longer have subsidized loans. After reading some of these posts, its makes me happy I don't have 400k or more debt and the fact that living modestly for a while will help me pay it off sooner. The whole system of medical education and education in general in this country is so flawed. Its a bubble waiting to burst. I can only imagine what tuition is going to be like in 10 years for now.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I'm curious as to the highest Med School Tuition in the USA as of today (2013 Fall). I'm guessing 4 years of med school with books, housing, transportation, etc is over $320,000 for at least 1 Class of 2017. Anyone care to post? Also, if you factor in the cost of an undergraduate education at a private college, which I will assume is "only" $130,000, then the total cost is $450,000.

 

[deleted126335]

I'm curious as to the highest Med School Tuition in the USA as of today (2013 Fall). I'm guessing 4 years of med school with books, housing, transportation, etc is over $320,000 for at least 1 Class of 2017. Anyone care to post? Also, if you factor in the cost of an undergraduate education at a private college, which I will assume is "only" $130,000, then the total cost is $450,000.

If your undergaduate number is supposed to include room and board and books it is off by nearly 50%.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

I'm curious as to the highest Med School Tuition in the USA as of today (2013 Fall). I'm guessing 4 years of med school with books, housing, transportation, etc is over $320,000 for at least 1 Class of 2017. Anyone care to post? Also, if you factor in the cost of an undergraduate education at a private college, which I will assume is "only" $130,000, then the total cost is $450,000.

I attend a DO school. Below is the cost of attendance for 2013-2014. Don't think my school is the highest, all DO schools are generally in this ball park.

OMS I (First Year)
Tuition $ 46,742
Student Services Fee $ 180
Student Health Insurance $ 2,832
Books and Supplies $ 1,700
Diagnostic Kit $ 900
Computer $ 1,000
PDA/Software $ 350
Room and Board $ 16,500
Personal Expenses $ 2,090
Transportation $ 3,520
Loan Fees $ 1,250
TOTAL Cost of Attendance $ 77,064

 

[deleted126335]

$320,000 for med school and $240,000 for just about the most expensive undergrad private education sounds about right. Including room and board and insurance which is not totally fair since you would also be buying food and shelter and insurnce if you weren't in school.

 

[deleted307836]

I'm curious as to the highest Med School Tuition in the USA as of today (2013 Fall). I'm guessing 4 years of med school with books, housing, transportation, etc is over $320,000 for at least 1 Class of 2017. Anyone care to post? Also, if you factor in the cost of an undergraduate education at a private college, which I will assume is "only" $130,000, then the total cost is $450,000.

I was posting about this in another thread earlier today, but there are many schools with a COA of >320k. Tuition alone is 57k/yr at Tufts University and Midwestern-Chicago... those both have total costs of attendance of over 80k/year, and of course that doesn't factor in interest that starts accruing from day one.

And of course there are some states that charge outrageous out of state tuition, like UC Denver which charges 83k/year for tuition for OOS students... 50k/year more than IS students. I don't think situations like that are as applicable as the very high tuitions at many private schools, where everyone pays the same amount.

So yes, it is very easy to graduate college debt-free but need to go well over 300k in debt for medicine in today's world.

 

[NOsaintsfan]

I know its taboo but needless to say due the cost of attendance I posted above money is defiantly a factor when picking a speciality.

It's not the end all be all but it's a factor.

I'm not alone there are thousands of current students in the same boat I am, hence the multitude of posts asking about income.