Med School Tuition is Insane

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Whatever you do, make sure you chase the money. Happiness will follow.


.jpegTrollFace

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Whatever you do, make sure you chase the money. Happiness will follow.


.jpegTrollFace


No guarantee on happiness whatever you do or earn in life; that said, trying to pay back $400K in loans on a Pediatrician's or Family Doctor's salary with a smile on your face won't be easy.

If you don't owe a dime in loans then choose whatever field floats your boat; but, if you owe big sums of money I would recommend a more prudent approach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
fig9a.jpg
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Although 25% of residents have no debt, over a third (36%) still owe more than $200,000 after five years in residency. The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) reports that the median four-year cost to attend medical school for the class of 2013 is $278,455 at private schools and $207,868 at public ones.[9] Given these high tuitions, resident indebtedness has risen much more rapidly than inflation or resident compensation. According to the AAMC, medical school debt has increased by 6.3% since 1992 compared with the Consumer Price Index increase of 2.5%.[10]

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/public/residents-salary-and-debt-report#9
 
I found this on SDN and wanted to post it on this thread as well:

The post below is from a recent graduate from Med School.


Monday, March 23, 2015


NOT A DOCTOR, JUST AN M.D.

In what is presented as a success, the 2015 Match, where medical students become doctors and find out if they will be accepted for residency, is over. It’s over and I am one of the 1,093 U.S. students that was rejected by every place that I interviewed. This year I packed up my family and we traveled across the U.S. in an annual cross-country pilgrimage to interview at residency programs. We couldn’t afford to fly. My husband, my infant son and I drove in a 15 year old station wagon, breaking our change jars to sleep in roach motels so that I would have a chance to give them a better life. It was an exhausting journey followed by an anxious month-long wait to find out where we would be living for the next three years. Instead of a better life, the National Resident Matching Program, Oregon Health and Sciences University and the American Medical Association have left us on the curb with over $400,000 dollars in debt and no way to pay it back. A doctor without a residency is unable to practice anywhere and although I hold the title, this is the end of the line for me. I labored and sacrificed ten years for a change in my life and I feel like a part of me has died.

Link:
http://notadoctorjustamd.blogspot.c...howComment=1427172072515#c3535627127933567282
 
I found this on SDN and wanted to post it on this thread as well:

The post below is from a recent graduate from Med School.


Monday, March 23, 2015


NOT A DOCTOR, JUST AN M.D.

In what is presented as a success, the 2015 Match, where medical students become doctors and find out if they will be accepted for residency, is over. It’s over and I am one of the 1,093 U.S. students that was rejected by every place that I interviewed. This year I packed up my family and we traveled across the U.S. in an annual cross-country pilgrimage to interview at residency programs. We couldn’t afford to fly. My husband, my infant son and I drove in a 15 year old station wagon, breaking our change jars to sleep in roach motels so that I would have a chance to give them a better life. It was an exhausting journey followed by an anxious month-long wait to find out where we would be living for the next three years. Instead of a better life, the National Resident Matching Program, Oregon Health and Sciences University and the American Medical Association have left us on the curb with over $400,000 dollars in debt and no way to pay it back. A doctor without a residency is unable to practice anywhere and although I hold the title, this is the end of the line for me. I labored and sacrificed ten years for a change in my life and I feel like a part of me has died.

Link:
http://notadoctorjustamd.blogspot.c...howComment=1427172072515#c3535627127933567282


Not to hijack the thread, but this strongly suggests that the med students will keep coming to anesthesia residency no matter how bad the job market for docs gets. The bad job market of the 90s gave way to the good job market of the 2000's because the med students stayed away from anesthesia because they had other residency options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Weigh the cost of medical school. An AAMC fact card shows that the average medical school graduate owes more than $176,000, equaling a repayment of $328,000, assuming a three-year residency and standard 10-year payoff. Repayment, if extended, could cost upward of $400,000 or more, according to the AAMC example.
 
that 277K number quoted for private medical schools sounds good, i calculated similar debt for me as an international student attending a private school, but aren't you guys better off because you get financial aid from the schools?
 
I don't get why the average indebtedness is so low. The cheapest PUBLIC school in my state cost of attendance is ~70k. That would easily put one 300k+ in debt after adding interests.

The COA at my school is 80k+, so I assume that the majority of my classmates, including me, will graduate owing 400k+, and will have a total debt of 500k+ after residency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Not to hijack the thread, but this strongly suggests that the med students will keep coming to anesthesia residency no matter how bad the job market for docs gets. The bad job market of the 90s gave way to the good job market of the 2000's because the med students stayed away from anesthesia because they had other residency options.


http://thescurlockscene.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-match-soap-reality-of-being-img.html

Josh graduated from SGU but did not match; he scrambled and was lucky to find a preliminary spot. Josh is now a Categorical Surgical Resident. Things are getting very, very tough for IMGs:


  • There were approximately 900 positions in the SOAP. There were over 1100 AMG's unmatched and over 8000 IMG's unmatched trying to obtain these spots.
  • Josh got ZERO phone calls or emails the entire week. NOT. EVEN. ONE.
  • It is our belief that international graduates, regardless of citizenship were filtered out from the start, that Josh's application was not even looked at all week.
 
This is a very interesting thread. I wish I read it while in residency, to learn how others made it through the medical education and financial system.

I went to a state university for undergrad way back when tuition was only $5,600/yr, and my parents paid the whole bill, thankfully. I wasn't good enough to get into state medical school (every state school I interviewed at asked me if I had travelled abroad to save polio-stricken villagers and from erupting volcanoes or something like that), went to a top private out-of-state med school at $38,000/yr tuition alone, and graduated with average debt.

During residency I did income-based repayment which was a HUGE portion of resident income taking, and watched interest accrue like crazy.

After graduation, the high interest rate and no tax deduction really pissed me off. After years of training, many of which were lost/useless like most of undergrad, we're still treated like **** by the system. Damned be any benevolent intention anyone had and all the sacrifices made to become a doctor.

So I lived frugally. No expensive rent. No fancy car, drove a used car instead. No big exotic trips abroad, only cheap nature trips around the country. I still splurged a few grand here and there for toys and gadgets, still went out to a fancy dinner once a month. And still maxed out IRA/401k.

I was able to save $10k/mo and repaid all my loans in under two years. Those two years with attending salary and maximum saving were short compared to the struggles of residency. The feeling of having no debt is remarkable. It was a relief to sign that last check and see my balance reach $0. And you get used to living well but not exorbitantly, and not having to spend every penny you make to support some needless lifestyle. And you get used to saving.

In the end it worked out ok for me.

Like others said before, I caution against relying on PSLF. I have friends in med school/residency who have $250-450k debt, so maybe it works out for them, but they're basing their future decisions (staying in academics/non-profit vs private practice jobs) based on PSLF, but I'm not sure if they've run the numbers to see if they'll still qualify when they get a big bump in attending salary even in academics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
He'll do great ... IF he can stay employed continuously until retirement.

CS is a young person's career.

Staying current is a huge issue, far more so than medicine. Recessions hit that industry very hard. Age discrimination can be lethal if you need to make a late career move or are past 50 when coming out of a recession.
I used to work for a big famous computer company. I came in with a new crop of grads. I later heard a lot of older guys (50+ years old) got laid off around the same time. I hope this was just a coincidence.
 
I used to work for a big famous computer company. I came in with a new crop of grads. I later heard a lot of older guys (50+ years old) got laid off around the same time. I hope this was just a coincidence.
It wasn't. New grads are cheaper. It's exactly what my academic place does: keeps decreasing your salary until you get fed up and leave, then hire some recent grad who is happy with ANY attending-level salary, ideally one that needs a green card, needs to be in the area, or has other limitations.

One of my former teachers left a couple years ago. He is a great anesthesiologist (the kind that can do anything except for the cardiac room, from sick peds and high-risk OB to regional and liver transplant) and very well-liked, and still he described how difficult it was to find a good job mid-career. He was actually passed on for a job because they chose one of our recent grads instead.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
It wasn't. New grads are cheaper. It's exactly what my academic place does: keeps decreasing your salary until you get fed up and leave, then hire some recent grad who is happy with ANY attending-level salary, ideally one that needs a green card, needs to be in the area, or has other limitations.

One of my former teachers left a couple years ago. He is a great anesthesiologist (the kind that can do anything except for the cardiac room, from sick peds and high-risk OB to regional and liver transplant) and very well-liked, and still he described how difficult it was to find a good job mid-career. He was actually passed on for a job because they chose one of our recent grads instead.


This is in some ways analogous to passing on an MD to hire a CRNA just to keep costs down, which some facilities are now using exclusively (and I believe to be malpractice). More and more we are all being seen as equivalent "providers" which will put tremendous downward pressure on salaries from here on due to over supply. Maybe I'll partner with a lawyer and sniff out these facilities bounty hunter style.
 
http://thescurlockscene.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-match-soap-reality-of-being-img.html

Josh graduated from SGU but did not match; he scrambled and was lucky to find a preliminary spot. Josh is now a Categorical Surgical Resident. Things are getting very, very tough for IMGs:


  • There were approximately 900 positions in the SOAP. There were over 1100 AMG's unmatched and over 8000 IMG's unmatched trying to obtain these spots.
  • Josh got ZERO phone calls or emails the entire week. NOT. EVEN. ONE.
  • It is our belief that international graduates, regardless of citizenship were filtered out from the start, that Josh's application was not even looked at all week.

Who needs this aggravation? I still do not understand why someone would go to a foreign medical school. I mean, if you have to scramble you are one in 9000 people vying for 900 spots. Wow, that sounds really awful. I mean there are other things people can do in medicine if they are really interested.

I'm just thankful I've made my money doing this.
 
I used to work for a big famous computer company. I came in with a new crop of grads. I later heard a lot of older guys (50+ years old) got laid off around the same time. I hope this was just a coincidence.
QED: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...t-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0
While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.

Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
This is what we too are doing, whenever we teach midlevels.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Ouch, 50% chance of matching into anything! 2-3% chance of gen surgery!

I hope residency programs can distinguish between different types of IMGs (e.g. pure IMGs from developed nations, pure IMGs from developing nations, US-IMGs from developed nations, US-IMGs from developing nations, etc.). However, I'm guessing it depends on the program, and some if not most programs might not even make the distinction, but just filter by IMG (US citizen or not) and if it says "IMG" then too bad.

There's also a difference between an American who needs to study abroad (perhaps because they couldn't get into a US medical school) and an American who wants to study abroad (because of a spouse or other reasons). However, programs at a first glance probably aren't able to tell the difference. They'd have to look at a person's CV in detail and if it says like Oxford BM BCh and PhD, then that's pretty amazing. But the question is, how many programs are actually going to bother looking at a person's CV in detail? There are probably hundreds (at least) of applications for each program to read, and programs are probably willing to do whatever it takes to cut down on the applications they have to review. They just want to cut applications down to a manageable size. Again, it's much easier for them to filter out.

In my opinion it's prudent for US-IMGs to have a backup plan if they can't make it back home to the US. Perhaps start with being willing to work in the nation in which they trained. Say if they trained in the UK, then hopefully they already have or would've been able to get permanent residency or citizenship in that country in case they end up working there as doctors. And some of these countries can great places to work as doctors (e.g. Australia, New Zealand).
 
Last edited:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/e...ral-loans-of-corinthian-college-students.html

Based on this article one could claim that they were swindled by their med school if they didn't match into a specialty.



"Mr. Duncan also said the department planned to develop a process to allow any student — whether from Corinthian or elsewhere — to be forgiven their loans if they had been defrauded by their colleges."
 
I wanted to bump this thread and ask whether most of you think that a $400,000 med school education is still worth the price of admission to becoming a primary care physician or psychiatrist.

I'm curious as to whether the ever increasing cost of a med school education
Will at some point become a deterrent.

I'm seeing some out of state schools charge closed to $65,000 for tuition plus other costs combined with cost of living. The total is close to $100k per year.

If a student gets accepted and borrows $400k what will he/she owe after med school and residency since interest accumulated day 1.

Honestly, I do not think med school is worth $400k unless your income post residency exceeds $400k per year. That level of income is quickly dwindling to a few highly competitive specialties.

I think the average student has no clue what it means to borrow that much money or how he/she will pay it back. When one is pursuing a dream (more like a fantasy for 50 percent of the class) economics goes out the window.

I think my entire med school education (allopathic) cost around $100k (all in). I lived pretty decently as well and had money to go on interviews and take vacations to Europe.

These days only the URM, military and ex military using the Gi bill are getting a good deal. The average ORM is screwed unless he/she gets into NYU.

The story of an orthodontist making 6 figures with $1 million in student-loan debt shows why doctors and lawyers are no longer the richest people you know
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
OCT16
How Much Do Doctors Make in 2018?
DOCTORS
If you’re like many doctors, your paycheck doesn’t have quite as many zeros on it as you’d hoped when you started med school. According to Medical Economics, average physician salaries are declining. It’s a trend that will likely continue through the rest of 2018.

And yet, doctors aren’t going to get a lot of sympathy from the average American. Doctors still account for the majority of six-figure positions in the U.S.

But what those figures don’t show is that for many of you, especially young physicians, your minimum student loan payments are so high that even with a higher-than-average salary, you’re still barely breaking even.

But enough with the generalities. Exactly how much do doctors make in 2018?

10 surprising stats about how much doctors make
Let’s break it down. First, I want to share some stats that may surprise you:

how-much-do-doc_27131086_cropped.png


Trend 1: Medical school is getting more expensive
No one needs to tell you medical school is expensive. Tuition and fees for the 2016-2017 school year ranged from $19,650 (Baylor University) to $87,152 (Michigan State University) per year for schools in the U.S. News and World Report 2018 Best Medical Schools research and primary care rankings.

The average medical school graduate carried $183,000 in debt across the stage with them in 2015 according to The Association of American Medical Colleges. Add that burden to their average undergraduate debt ($24,000) and the total average student loan balance for a doctor is $207,000.

That number is no doubt higher today as undergraduate tuition rate increases vastly outpace inflation every year.

In recent years it’s become more and more expensive to become a doctor. Assuming it takes you 30 years to repay your student debt at a 7.5% interest rate, in the end that credential will actually cost you $419,738.

CBS News points out that it also takes at least 11 years (and for some specialties 14 years) to become a physician. So while the typical doctor earns six figures, they don’t earn anything close to a full-time salary until after the typical college graduate has been making money for a decade.

Assuming just a $50,000 annual salary, doctors forego half a million dollars by going to graduate school and doing their residency.

Trend 2: Increasing demand for physicians
As the U.S. population ages and demand for healthcare increases, the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts that demand for physicians and surgeons is only going up.

The BLS projects that between 2016 and 2026, the number of new jobs for physicians and surgeons will increase by 15%, which is much faster than the average growth rate for new jobs in other fields.

Trend 3: Salaries are getting cut
Primary care physicians earn only slightly more than their debt. Annual median pay for physicians and surgeons is around $187,000.

One study found that physicians who go into internal medicine are the least satisfied with their jobs. Internists work an average of 54 hours per week, see two patients every hour, and spend 23% of their work day completing paperwork. One-fifth of internists have seen their pay decrease since they began practicing. When asked if they would choose the same specialty if they had to do it over again, only 19% said yes. Two-thirds said they wouldn’t go into medicine at all.

One more thing to consider: Specialty matters
Your choice of specialty has a big impact both on your salary and your job satisfaction.

The best paid doctors are orthopedic surgeons, who take home an average of $443,000 annually.

Despite their lower pay, neurologists are the most satisfied—66% say they’d choose the same specialty, and 53% say they’d go into medicine again. They earn an average of $241,000, while working an average of 55 hours per week.

Radiologists are the most likely to have had a pay cut, with almost half reporting a decline in salary in the past six years. However, radiologists are still among the best-paid doctors, earning an average of $375,000. More than half would choose to be a doctor and choose the same specialty again.

Emergency doctors are least likely to have had their salary slashed, with just 19% having suffered a cut within the last six years. They earn an average of $322,000. However, only 41% of emergency doctors say they would go into medicine or emergency medical care again.

So, how does your salary stack up?
Are you earning the average for your specialty? Have you seen your pay go down in recent years? Tell me about it in the comments below.

By : Admin
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Would you pay $120,000 per year or $480,000 (total) to become a Physician from Michigan State University?

The College of Human Medicine at Michigan State University (College of Human Medicine) has an application deadline of Nov. 1. The application fee at Michigan State University (College of Human Medicine) is $90. Its tuition is full-time: $45,144 (in-state) and full-time: $87,162 (out-of-state). The faculty-student ratio at Michigan State University (College of Human Medicine) is 0.7:1. The College of Human Medicine has 609 full- and part-time faculty on staff.

The Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine grants doctor of osteopathic medicine (D.O.) degrees. (MSU also has a College of Human Medicine, which grants M.D. degrees.) The first year of education begins in the summer, studying gross anatomy, and D.O. students then learn the foundations of medical science. In total, classroom training lasts seven semesters.
 
I wanted to bump this thread and ask whether most of you think that a $400,000 med school education is still worth the price of admission to becoming a primary care physician or psychiatrist.

I'm curious as to whether the ever increasing cost of a med school education
Will at some point become a deterrent.

I'm seeing some out of state schools charge closed to $65,000 for tuition plus other costs combined with cost of living. The total is close to $100k per year.

If a student gets accepted and borrows $400k what will he/she owe after med school and residency since interest accumulated day 1.

Honestly, I do not think med school is worth $400k unless your income post residency exceeds $400k per year. That level of income is quickly dwindling to a few highly competitive specialties.

I think the average student has no clue what it means to borrow that much money or how he/she will pay it back. When one is pursuing a dream (more like a fantasy for 50 percent of the class) economics goes out the window.

I think my entire med school education (allopathic) cost around $100k (all in). I lived pretty decently as well and had money to go on interviews and take vacations to Europe.

These days only the URM, military and ex military using the Gi bill are getting a good deal. The average ORM is screwed unless he/she gets into NYU.

The story of an orthodontist making 6 figures with $1 million in student-loan debt shows why doctors and lawyers are no longer the richest people you know
I’m graduating in May and will have 450k debt burden including undergrad (85k). A lot of that is accumulated interest but nonetheless, 450k is what I’ll start paying down when July 1 hits. Going into anesthesia so from the current market I anticipate earning in the 350-400k range. In my opinion, I’m still glad I went to medical school because I really enjoy it. But that may change once I realize what it means to actually pay down 450k in loans.

But to answer your question, no, I would not take out 400k to be a psychiatrist or PCP. About the 1:1 ratio is where I start questioning whether it’s worth it. But as an undergrad student (let alone a high school student) when you have your heart set on medicine, how are you really supposed to understand what it will actually cost you?

Tuition has continued to climb and there’s no end in sight really. There are a million applicants out there just waiting for the chance of a lifetime to go to medical school that would happily go 500k into debt for a chance at being a physician (just look at Carib school admission numbers). It’s getting to a point where it should be criminal to charge bright eyed students exorbitant amounts of money for school when most students see it as Monopoly money and don’t really understand the true gravity of the situation before it’s too late.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The short answer is: No, it is absolutely not worth it for the vast majority of med students. Most will not be entering high-paying specialties making >300k. Of that debt-burden, many loans are over 6-8% interest rate. I had a significant amount of debt that had interest over 6%.

When I bought my house, I had to submit multiple stacks of paperwork to get approved for a mortgage. I have excellent credit and I bought a pretty modest house in comparison to my income. Obtaining student loans requires no such investigation into the ability to pay it back. A doc making 200k will be able to pay it back, but will have difficulty building wealth or taking on other debt like a mortgage. A debt of 400k with a significant percentage at higher interest rates with a salary of 200k as a (busy) PCP is absolutely not worth it. Not even close.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Two observations: 1. With AMGs not being able to obtain a spot in residency, why are ANY IMGs matching? It should follow that the AMGs would automatically be given slots over all IMGs since the system of American medicine is a continuum from med school to residency, and without residency many states do not allow physicians to practice medicine. IMGs are not part of the American medical training system until they reach residency or do some other pathway.
2. There is a significant amount of unscrupulous and illegal financial behavior in medicine with doctors looking for kickbacks, playing games with billing codes, becoming a pill mill, billing intentionally out of network for some services but not all with an insurer, and self referring to their labs/imaging units/PT/etc. Is it possible the $180k/year income doctor with a $350k medical school debt plus mortgage and other living expenses is being driven towards these behaviors because of the medical school expense?
 
Last edited:
Two observations: 1. With AMGs not being able to obtain a spot in residency, why are ANY IMGs matching? It should follow that the AMGs would automatically be given slots over all IMGs since the system of American medicine is a continuum from med school to residency, and without residency many states do not allow physicians to practice medicine. IMGs are not part of the American medical training system until they reach residency or do some other pathway.

Same question can be asked why international students are granted admission in to public undergrads (or even private). Isn't undergrad a 'continuum' from high school? Or why any non-US citizen is given a job in the USA (pick your country). Isn't this a 'continuum' from school training as well? The answer is residency/employers are looking for 'the best'. How someone defines 'the best' is more complex.
 
Two observations: 1. With AMGs not being able to obtain a spot in residency, why are ANY IMGs matching? It should follow that the AMGs would automatically be given slots over all IMGs since the system of American medicine is a continuum from med school to residency, and without residency many states do not allow physicians to practice medicine. IMGs are not part of the American medical training system until they reach residency or do some other pathway.
2. There is a significant amount of unscrupulous and illegal financial behavior in medicine with doctors looking for kickbacks, playing games with billing codes, becoming a pill mill, billing intentionally out of network for some services but not all with an insurer, and self referring to their labs/imaging units/PT/etc. Is it possible the $180k/year income doctor with a $350k medical school debt plus mortgage and other living expenses is being driven towards these behaviors because of the medical school expense?

Same question can be asked why international students are granted admission in to public undergrads (or even private). Isn't undergrad a 'continuum' from high school? Or why any non-US citizen is given a job in the USA (pick your country). Isn't this a 'continuum' from school training as well? The answer is residency/employers are looking for 'the best'. How someone defines 'the best' is more complex.

The programs largely do prefer AMG’s. However if there is an outstanding international candidate, I think they should be free to select them. Likewise, Americans are free to train in other countries as long as they are willing to jump through the hoops.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Residency programs are funded at least in part, by the federal government. One would think the federal government that is partially funding medical education of medical students and residents would require preferential support of AMGs to the exclusion of IMGs until all residency slots are filled by AMGs. If there are any slots left over, then give them to the IMGs..... Just my opinion....
 
Residency programs are funded at least in part, by the federal government. One would think the federal government that is partially funding medical education of medical students and residents would require preferential support of AMGs to the exclusion of IMGs until all residency slots are filled by AMGs. If there are any slots left over, then give them to the IMGs..... Just my opinion....

Are there a lot of AMGs going unmatched? Are there programs that are preferentially selecting IMGs over AMGs? My understanding was that AMGs are given much higher regard when it comes to the match unless there was a particularly outstanding IMG or a particularly poor AMG candidate. I could be wrong because I’ve never really been interested enough to look at the data.
 
Residency programs are funded at least in part, by the federal government. One would think the federal government that is partially funding medical education of medical students and residents would require preferential support of AMGs to the exclusion of IMGs until all residency slots are filled by AMGs. If there are any slots left over, then give them to the IMGs..... Just my opinion....

I don't disagree. I'm just saying our education system doesn't operate that way. Check out all the public undergrads that are funded by state tax payers granting admission to international students and out-of-state students. Same idea with IMGs and AMGs. AMGs are definitely preferred, but if you have an AMG who went to pass/fail school, with poor Step scores they aren't going to beat out an IMG with 270s on Step 1/2.
 
Perhaps our government should consider a new hierarchy, and mandate it since they have the power to do so......via executive order? Of course starting in January, Pelosi will never allow it ;-)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Are there a lot of AMGs going unmatched? Are there programs that are preferentially selecting IMGs over AMGs? My understanding was that AMGs are given much higher regard when it comes to the match unless there was a particularly outstanding IMG or a particularly poor AMG candidate. I could be wrong because I’ve never really been interested enough to look at the data.

You can just look at the charting outcomes data every few years. AMGs are still hugely preferred over IMGs of any sort.

Yes, it should be criminal to operate Caribbean medical schools. If they were terrible deals when I started medical school, they’re even worse deals now. Government backed loans (even if they’re private loans, our laws don’t allow discharging them except in the most extreme circumstances) pouring into for profit organizations based offshore that they have no jurisdiction over. Hundreds to thousands of students graduating every year with 6 figures of student loan debt and no reasonable way to pay it off. Same scam as Phoenix university and all those for profit schools were doing here in the US but the Caribbean medical schools are harder to go after since they’re offshore.

Regarding the above, I agree that you should be looking at the 1:1 ratio at least when looking at medical school. If you’ll come out with low-mid 200s in debt (about average PCP salary except for pediatrics which tends a little lower, psych salaries are maybe around there to slightly higher on average, lots of non procedural subspecialities land about there) you’ll probably be alright in the long run. Above that, you’re probably going to have to restrict yourself to shooting for higher paying specialties and hoping they stay that way by the time you’re done with residency.

Honestly, at this point, if you think you’ll end up 300, 400, even 500k in the hole at the end of it all with college, med school and deferred loans during residency, there are way better options. If you want to stay in medicine but you’d end up having that level of debt during medical school, PA and NP is a way better deal. Come out making mid 100s with probably minimal to no debt, no need to do residency, clinic hours or 3-12s a week. By the time you’re 30 can actually do adult things like buy a house instead of just getting your first real job and hoping you can pay down your debt. If you don’t care that much about medicine, a decent MBA is a great return on investment right now. Services and consulting sectors are booming, job market is very favorable. Lots of corporate perks when working a decent management job in a good sized company. Energy sector is super hot. The job market right now is so good that it really doesn’t make a ton of sense to go into that 300k+ debt.
 
Just want to give an updated news to all the oldies out there that Psych has skyrocketed in competitiveness and applicant numbers in the past 2 years. Words on the street are that it's not hard to operate an office taking only cash and make about 400-450K a year while working only about 50 hrs a week. These rumors have been confirmed by multiple colleagues who are rotating with Psych residents right now. I'm not going into Psych, but the hatred for that field is unjustified at this moment.
 
Just want to give an updated news to all the oldies out there that Psych has skyrocketed in competitiveness and applicant numbers in the past 2 years. Words on the street are that it's not hard to operate an office taking only cash and make about 400-450K a year while working only about 50 hrs a week. These rumors have been confirmed by multiple colleagues who are rotating with Psych residents right now. I'm not going into Psych, but the hatred for that field is unjustified at this moment.

I have seen Med Students list Psych in the top 5 most desired specialties due to lifestyle. While I have no doubt that some Psychiatrists are earning $400K the vast majority are still in the $200-$250K range.
 
Top 10 Specialties – By Demand and By Income

Two factors which many med students take into account when choosing a specialty are the demand which exists for that particular specialty and the associated compensation, which varies widely from one specialty to another. According to Becker’s Hospital Review, the top in-demand specialty areas (and their associated incomes) are as follows:

1. Family Physician ($198,000)
2. Internal Medicine Physician ($207,000)
3. Psychiatrist ($226,000)
4. Hospitalist ($232,000)
5. Nurse Practitioner ($107,000)
6. Obstetrician-Gynecologist ($276,000)
7. Orthopedic surgeon ($497,000)
8. Emergency room physician ($345,000)
9. Pediatrician ($195,000)
10. General surgeon ($339,000)


Popular Specialty Areas – and What Med Students Should Know About Them
 
Top 10 Specialties – By Demand and By Income

Two factors which many med students take into account when choosing a specialty are the demand which exists for that particular specialty and the associated compensation, which varies widely from one specialty to another. According to Becker’s Hospital Review, the top in-demand specialty areas (and their associated incomes) are as follows:

1. Family Physician ($198,000)
2. Internal Medicine Physician ($207,000)
3. Psychiatrist ($226,000)
4. Hospitalist ($232,000)
5. Nurse Practitioner ($107,000)
6. Obstetrician-Gynecologist ($276,000)
7. Orthopedic surgeon ($497,000)
8. Emergency room physician ($345,000)
9. Pediatrician ($195,000)
10. General surgeon ($339,000)


Popular Specialty Areas – and What Med Students Should Know About Them

I love that “nurse practitioner” made the list. High quality work out of Becker.
 
Top