Medical Physicist's role vs. Radiation Oncologist...

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DrJD

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Hey everyone,

I was just wondering what the differences are between these two team members. I understand that one is a PhD and one an MD, and I have read a bunch that describes their "roles", but I was more curious on a practical level what each member does.

Thanks!

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The physicist is in charge of treatment planning and just about every aspect of the treatment machines. They help design the treatment plans and kinda oversee the dosimetrists. The physicists are responsible for beam calibration and dosimetry. The physicist will often administer the HDR brachytherapy treatments themselves (after the rad onc comes in and ok's things).

The radiation oncologist is the medical doctor and he sees the patients for consultations and follow-up. He will come up with the plan of action for patient treatment. Additionaly, the rad onc will do procedures such as LDR brachytherapy (prostate seed implant).
 
The physicist is in charge of treatment planning and just about every aspect of the treatment machines. They help design the treatment plans and kinda oversee the dosimetrists. The physicists are responsible for beam calibration and dosimetry. The physicist will often administer the HDR brachytherapy treatments themselves (after the rad onc comes in and ok's things).

The radiation oncologist is the medical doctor and he sees the patients for consultations and follow-up. He will come up with the plan of action for patient treatment. Additionaly, the rad onc will do procedures such as LDR brachytherapy (prostate seed implant).

Thanks for the reply... So you said the physicist is "in charge of treatment planning"... And the Rad onc is in charge of the "plan of action."

So is it that the MD looks at the imaging studies and decides what type of treatment/how much etc and then tells the physicist to plan the physics part of it?

I guess from the description you gave it sounds like the medical physicist is responsible for most everything except talking with the patients. I know that is an oversimplification but is that sentiment correct? Thanks!
 
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Thanks for the reply... So you said the physicist is "in charge of treatment planning"... And the Rad onc is in charge of the "plan of action."

So is it that the MD looks at the imaging studies and decides what type of treatment/how much etc and then tells the physicist to plan the physics part of it?

I guess from the description you gave it sounds like the medical physicist is responsible for most everything except talking with the patients. I know that is an oversimplification but is that sentiment correct? Thanks!

well there are many aspects of patient care that the rad onc is responsible for. As far as the pure treatment planning after the "plan of action" is decided, yes I would say the physicist and dosimetrists have a lion's share of the work there.
 
I guess from the description you gave it sounds like the medical physicist is responsible for most everything except talking with the patients. I know that is an oversimplification but is that sentiment correct? Thanks!

Definitely not, you are oversimplifying greatly.

Generally this is how it goes,

1. Radiation Oncologist receives new patient referral and sees patient. The decision whether or not to give radiation is solely in the hands of the Rad Onc. In addition to discussion with the patient, the Rad Onc is also responsible for reviewing relevant pathology, imaging, medical co-morbidities, etc. In addition, he is responsible for coordinating radiation with chemotherapy and/or surgery as appropriate. In addition, the Rad Onc must decide which treatment technique to use: IMRT, 3DCRT, clinical set-up, radiosurgery, etc. Also the total dose and fractionation scheme must be decided based on both literature and the clinician's own experience and judgement.

2. The patient comes in for a simulation to map their anatomy for treatment. The Rad Onc must decide how the patient needs to be set-up. This can range from routine to very complex w/ much trial and error. The use of devices like alpha cradles, aquaplast masks, use of contrast agents, etc. are all considered based on the treatment site.

3. Once the patient's images are up-loaded to the treatment planning system the Rad Onc must define what needs to be treated. This is not so simple as drawing the tumor. The gross tumor volume must be specified in ADDITION to the margin around that must be treated. Nearby critical strucutres may make this decision more complex and involved. Also, involved and potentially involved nodal groups must be defined (this is not easy for sites such as head & neck). Finally, dose limits to organs at risk (such as spinal cord) must be defined for the treatment planners. If patients are being re-irradiated (often the case especially with metastatic patients) then this requires thought.

4. Once the dosimetrist and/or physicist come up with a plan there may be many rounds of optimization before the physician is satisfied. There are many CLINICAL parameters that are important to this process that the treatment planner may be unaware of. This is precisely why physicians need to be intimately involved in treatment planning.

5. When the patient starts treatment for the first time (and periodically thereafter) the Rad Onc must check the port films to verify that the patient is anatomically in the correct treatment position. All the fancy IMRT planning is for naught if the patient is not lined up correctly.

6. Every week during treatment the Rad Onc sees the patient and manages clinical problems. In many sites, radiation WILL cause significant acute/chronic issues which must be managed appropriately with medication, advice, or referral as appropriate.

7. After treatment the Rad Onc typically follows up with the patient (sometimes for years) and reviews relevant imaging, labs, and pathology for treatment effect and possible recurrence.

Therefore I submit to you while dosimetrists and physicists are indispensable to the radiation team the physician's job entails a little more than talking to patients.
 
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Thanks a lot Gfunk, that was really helpful... I appreciate you taking the time to write in so much detail!
 
Hey I had another question for you Gfunk or anyone else for that matter...

There are a lot of threads on this site with people making sure that there isn't much physics in Rad Onc... I have the opposite question I guess. Is it possible to tailor your career, specifically research to be more physics intensive? I really enjoy physics and am looking into Radiation Oncology because I'm hoping to have a medical career that involves physics.

Thanks!
 
Is it possible to tailor your career, specifically research to be more physics intensive?

Yes it is possible. There are many MDs actively involved in Physics research though most involve clinically relevant scenarios like dosimetry comparisons. Usually MDs involved in more in-depth research have some time of physics/engineering background.

Also, keep in mind that the last time many Rad Onc residents took anything involving physics was during undergrad. Physics is obviously not emphasized in medical school and certainly not the kind of physics used in Rad Onc. Also, a lot of the physics you learn as a resident is very low-yield clinical information which is promptly forgotten after you pass physics boards. This is even truer in diagnostic radiology.
 
"the area around the lump" WILL be harmed by radiation, which is precisely why a Rad Onc needs to be involved. Even highly conformal radiation w/ protons, radiosurgery, heavy ions will give SOME dose to surrounding tissue. This is very important to take into consideration.

"radiation can only be used for localized cancer" is also WRONG. Radiation is routinely used to palliate metastatic disease which has spread to sites far from the tumors primary origin.
 
will medical oncology be the speciality that will benefit most from nanotechnology?
 
ROs prescribe the dose & treatment technique (ie. 4 fields, IMRT, stereotactic radiosx)while dosimetrists (dosimetry is a subspecialty of medical physics) design the treatment plans and calculate the isodose distributions. Physicists are there to provide physics consult, QA the treatment plans (treat approval from the physics aspect), and calibrate the machines, etc.

The treatment plans have to be approved by the ROs as well.
 
ROs prescribe the dose & treatment technique (ie. 4 fields, IMRT, stereotactic radiosx)

They also must review the differences between the many possible treatment plans and choose the best plan for the patient.

Actually, 85% of my time (Rad Onc) is spent in the clinic, seeing consults, followups, discussing cases with physician colleagues, reviewing scans with radiologists, reviewing path with pathologists, attending tumor conferences, etc.

The other 15% is spent in dosimetry discussing what exactly I want in my treatment plan with the dosimetrists, contouring structures on CT's, drawing treatment volumes and fields, reviewing plans, reviewing weekly port films, modifying plans that are having adverse clinical consequences (side effects), etc.

Hope this helps.
 
Resurrecting an old thread here, but what are the differences between a dosimetrist and the medical physicist? It seems from threads here that the physicist is kind of a dosimetrist manager or something.

But, I read at another site (non-SDN) that radiation therapists often become dosimetrists with additional on-the-job training. But, that seems like a huge leap between running the radiation machines and planning specific radiation. Kinda like driving a car vs. designing a new one...
 
Resurrecting an old thread here, but what are the differences between a dosimetrist and the medical physicist? It seems from threads here that the physicist is kind of a dosimetrist manager or something.

But, I read at another site (non-SDN) that radiation therapists often become dosimetrists with additional on-the-job training. But, that seems like a huge leap between running the radiation machines and planning specific radiation. Kinda like driving a car vs. designing a new one...

The simplest way to find out the difference is to visit your radiation oncology department and see what physicists and dosimetrists do. The job descriptions may sound similar, but there is a clear distinction between what they do.

Therapist-turned-dosimetrists, in my opinion, are the best dosimetrists. In addition to knowing how to work the software, they have very good understanding of what it is that you are asking them to do, and will often suggest very good ideas.
 
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Resurrecting an old thread here, but what are the differences between a dosimetrist and the medical physicist? It seems from threads here that the physicist is kind of a dosimetrist manager or something.

Dosimetrists are the experts at using treatment planning software and generating dose plans is their primary work. The role of physicists in treatment planning varies by clinic. In fact some clinics have physicists whose only role is treatment planning. Often times, the physicist is in charge of planning, even though they may not perform much planning themselves. Some clinics have chief dosimetrists in charge of planning, sometimes holding master's degrees.

In general, the physicist has a much wider range of duties, including machine calibration, radiation safety, chart checks, radioactive materials handling, plan quality assurance, etc. Also, the path to becoming a physicist is significantly longer, requiring a BS in physics or engineering, an MS or PhD in medical physics or physics, and a 2 year clinical residency (the only route after 2014) or 3 years of clinical experience for ABR certification.

I am not very familiar the training requirements to be a dosimetrist, but I believe that the AAMD is pushing to require a bachelor's degree for certification.
 
Resurrecting an old thread here, but what are the differences between a dosimetrist and the medical physicist? It seems from threads here that the physicist is kind of a dosimetrist manager or something.

But, I read at another site (non-SDN) that radiation therapists often become dosimetrists with additional on-the-job training. But, that seems like a huge leap between running the radiation machines and planning specific radiation. Kinda like driving a car vs. designing a new one...

It used to be like that before since dosimetry still is a relatively new field. Today most clinics probably require their dosimetrists to be CMD certified, but many of them still prefer to hire those who were former therapists and still hold registration in therapy (from what I heard).

Outside of the States, dosimetry and therapy are all taught together. In UK, Australia, New Zealand the edu. requirements are all baccalaureate degrees. In Canada pretty much all therapists/dosimetrists are university trained from what I read online (or at least have BS).
 
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The new CARE bill will determine the educational requirement of professionals working in imaging and radiotherapy.

Here's the certification exam eligibility starting from 2013:

Route 1

Graduated from a JRCERT accredited program of at least 12 months + 6 months of clinical intern OR graduate from an accredited program of at least 18 months.

Route 2

A Bachelors Degree in any field or hold an active registration with the ARRT in radiation therapy or foreign equivalent.Completed at least 36 months clinical medical dosimetry experience plus 24 CE credits during clinical.

Route 3 will be eliminated.
 
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