Medical Student Suicide

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Yeah.. it's just that at least in my case, telling myself on the daily that I'm damaged goods and a **** up isn't exactly the most healthy line of thought. I mean it's one thing to realize that you've had experiences that have had an effect on your life, it's another to make all the horrible ish you've gone through the center of your identity.
I agree. I wasn't taking the "I'm damaged goods and I'm fine with it" approach with my prior post. Sorry, if it came off that way. It was more like, "I realize this **** had a devastating impact on me and I'm ok admitting it," which is exactly what you just posted.

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I agree. I wasn't taking the "I'm damaged goods and I'm fine with it" approach with my prior post. Sorry, if it came off that way. It was more like, "I realize this **** had a devastating impact on me and I'm ok admitting it," which is exactly what you just posted.
No I totally understand
 
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:shrug: Having abnormal thoughts doesn't make you not a normal person. I would avoid using the word normal myself, and simply say "people who have a history of mental illness are at a higher risk of suicide than those who have no history of mental health issues." It says the exact same thing, but without that feeling of judgement, brokenness, or exclusion.
OF COURSE. Everyone has abnormal thoughts sometimes so that alone can't possibly make you not a normal person. But we are not talking about just any abnormal thoughts- we are talking about serious suicidal idealization that ultimately does result in suicide. I want to get a straight answer out of you: was a person "normal" if he/she commits suicide soon thereafter? I think you are becoming a parody of what is "politically correct."
 
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OF COURSE. Everyone has abnormal thoughts sometimes so that alone can't possibly make you not a normal person. But we are not talking about just any abnormal thoughts- we are talking about serious suicidal idealization that ultimately does result in suicide. I want to get a straight answer out of you: was a person "normal" if he/she commits suicide soon thereafter? I think you are becoming a parody of what is "politically correct."
It isn't about being politically correct. It is actually about not making patients with existing psychiatric issues feel worse about themselves. Several people with histories have chimed in echoing that it did, in fact, put them off and didn't make them feel all that great. If you want to actually help the students and physicians out there with mental illnesses and histories of mental illness, you might do well to actually listen to what the hell they are telling you about how things make them feel.

And yes, a perfectly normal person can be driven to suicide. People who lose everything to market crashes or lawsuits, for instance, or those that might serve prison time for white collar crimes are perfect examples. Sleep deprivation, substance abuse, or a mix of both can substantially alter the way a person sees the world, and result in them making a decision that they would not if they were in their right mind. If you couple stress, sleep deprivation, and high demands on a person, they might rapidly exceed their coping mechanisms and end up doing something that never would have occurred to them if they were working a chill 9-5 job and barbecuing on the weekends.
 
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I don't know that people are arguing that. But suicidal ideations are not normal. They are common, or, usual, but that is not synonymous with "normal".
As @Mad Jack just stated, any "normal person" could be driven to contemplate suicide under certain traumatic circumstances. That's what I was referring to.
 
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It isn't about being politically correct. It is actually about not making patients with existing psychiatric issues feel worse about themselves. Several people with histories have chimed in echoing that it did, in fact, put them off and didn't make them feel all that great. If you want to actually help the students and physicians out there with mental illnesses and histories of mental illness, you might do well to actually listen to what the hell they are telling you about how things make them feel.

And yes, a perfectly normal person can be driven to suicide. People who lose everything to market crashes or lawsuits, for instance, or those that might serve prison time for white collar crimes are perfect examples. Sleep deprivation, substance abuse, or a mix of both can substantially alter the way a person sees the world, and result in them making a decision that they would not if they were in their right mind. If you couple stress, sleep deprivation, and high demands on a person, they might rapidly exceed their coping mechanisms and end up doing something that never would have occurred to them if they were working a chance chill 9-5 job and barbecuing on the weekends.

I certainly understand your frustration.

Perhaps the issue is that the word "normal" is used to describe the 'wrong' things. For example, yes, people who are otherwise mentally stable may become suicidal due to...the things you mentioned above.

Thus, is it the thoughts that should be labeled as abnormal? If is so, can our thoughts be interchanged with us in other scenarios? Our thoughts are not normal, but we are normal. We are not our thoughts, but our actions certainly are a product of them. Do our thoughts not change us in any way? Can we not become abnormal?

Also, I believe that part of therapy is discussing with patients what professionals mean by the term "normal". Having suicidal ideations does mean that something is not right with you, which is, simply, what is meant by "abnormal", or, not functioning as it should. Yes, this should be discussed in a careful, compassionate way, because we all suffer in some way. It does not mean we are doomed, and it does not mean that, at our fundamental levels, we are wrong.

However, and I say this as someone who has experienced depression and other tendencies for many years in the past, it also takes some work on the part of everyone to try and understand that not everything is a personal attack, and we are running out of ways to describe things without being, ourselves, labeled as inconsiderate.

Believing that everything is an attack against you is, in itself, not the way you should be thinking, and could also be considered "abnormal", though common, and should also be worked on.
 
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I don't think anyone took nick ' s post as a personal attack. At least I didn't. I was just trying to bring something to his attention that he might not have otherwise noticed
 
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I think there’s a difference between calling the symptoms not normal, and saying the person is somehow not normal as a human being. (Everyone here I assume is using the former, but I’m just making a case for why the word “normal” can be fuzzy, and not just out of trying to be overly politically correct.)

Someone with symptoms of mental illness, particularly suicidal ideations, are exhibiting tendencies that are out of the norm of normal human behavior/thinking. But the problem is that throwing around terms like “no normal person would…” runs the risk of such a person feeling that there’s something fundamentally wrong with them as a person.
 
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As @Mad Jack just stated, any "normal person" could be driven to contemplate suicide under certain traumatic circumstances. That's what I was referring to.

Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out, and I wasn't arguing with you, but I suppose my post can be interpreted as if I am.

I originally meant to reply to the quote that you quoted.

Yes, a "normal person" could be driven to contemplate suicide. You could argue two sides: 1) Then, they are no longer "normal", or 2) They are normal, but are experiencing abnormal inclinations.

Number 1 is certainly offensive to many. It's often a matter of semantics. We often refer to people's thoughts as them, because that's how we see them manifested.
 
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I think there’s a difference between calling the symptoms not normal, and saying the person is somehow not normal as a human being. (Everyone here I assume is using the former, but I’m just making a case for why the word “normal” can be fuzzy, and not just out of trying to be overly politically correct.)

Someone with symptoms of mental illness, particularly suicidal ideations, are exhibiting tendencies that are out of the norm of normal human behavior/thinking. But the problem is that throwing around terms like “no normal person would…” runs the risk of such a person feeling that there’s something fundamentally wrong with them as a person.


I get that.

That's what happens when 2 groups discuss the same thing, and call it differently.

1 group refers to it as "our thoughts, not us".
Another group refers to it as "but you are the manifestation of those thoughts".
 
It isn't about being politically correct. It is actually about not making patients with existing psychiatric issues feel worse about themselves. Several people with histories have chimed in echoing that it did, in fact, put them off and didn't make them feel all that great. If you want to actually help the students and physicians out there with mental illnesses and histories of mental illness, you might do well to actually listen to what the hell they are telling you about how things make them feel.

And yes, a perfectly normal person can be driven to suicide. People who lose everything to market crashes or lawsuits, for instance, or those that might serve prison time for white collar crimes are perfect examples. Sleep deprivation, substance abuse, or a mix of both can substantially alter the way a person sees the world, and result in them making a decision that they would not if they were in their right mind. If you couple stress, sleep deprivation, and high demands on a person, they might rapidly exceed their coping mechanisms and end up doing something that never would have occurred to them if they were working a chill 9-5 job and barbecuing on the weekends.

I'm going to regret going here, but here we go.

Forget the use of "normal." Instead, let's think of different groups of people. Some people are able to deal with stresses - including severe ones - with hardly any or even no symptoms of serious mental illness. Some are not. Some people develop depression or other disorders without any seemingly identifiable stressor. Some can go decades before developing a mental illness, perhaps following the death of a loved one or other traumatic event. Genetics likely play some role in this determination, but one's experiences, upbringing, and general temperament (which itself is based on the previous two) play a huge - if not bigger - role. Under this conception, no one is "perfectly normal," as you put it. Instead, we end up with a spectrum of people who represent a variety of different phenotypes: people that develop mental disorders and people that are predisposed to mental illness but don't develop symptoms. Theoretically everyone could fall into the latter category, but the fact remains that there are simply people that are more predisposed to developing maladaptive responses in response to identical stressors than others. Some are a small nudge away from mental illness, some a push, and some essentially immune.

You seem to be treating everyone as identical people that, given the right combination of stressors, could be driven to suicide. I don't doubt that you could conjure up some set of circumstances that would drive any individual to suicidal ideation or even successfully committing suicide. But the fact that remains that given stressor X, some are able to adapt and some are not. It's the latter category that's more concerning, and it's those people that are more likely to develop mental illness.

Take a more medical example: obesity. There are some people whose genetics make them effectively immune to obesity. These are the people who can seemingly eat anything and yet never gain an ounce. Others are genetically predisposed to obesity; they are less able to respond to an "adverse" diet and, without significant intake control and a regular regimen of exercise, will gain weight. Everyone falls somewhere on that spectrum. But as is becoming increasingly recognized as important, one's diet as a child and the norms that he/she develops at that age - largely from his/her family - plays a huge role. Thus, people that are at-risk but are given conditions that protect against becoming obese never develop "symptoms." Conversely, you could take that same person and put them in a household which has poor dietary knowledge, doesn't eat healthy, and doesn't understand the importance of exercise and that person will likely become obese. Do you disagree with this conception? Why is it any different in mental health?

In psychology, this is conceptualized in the dandelion-orchid theory. Some people - I'd argue very few - are dandelions and are able to adapt to any circumstance and avoid maladaptive responses. Other people - I'd argue the majority - are more on the orchid line of the spectrum. They require more care in order to develop fully - they need regular watering, a greenhouse with a closely controlled temperature, and regular changing of the soil. You can think of these things in our world as stable relationships with friends and family, support at home and at work/school, and avoidance of significant stressors, among other things.

As I somewhat alluded to in my first post in this thread which seemingly got this whole thing kicked off, if you're a dandelion, you will likely have no problem in medical school. You will be able to adapt to the stresses and power through them. You'll come out the other end in one piece with few if any "scars." If you're an orchid, medical training is a bit more of a dice roll. You might encounter those same stressors and develop depression, an anxiety disorder, or even become frankly suicidal. You may not make it through in one piece. You may turn to substances in an attempt to cope with the stress. If you're an especially fragile orchid, you may not make it through at all; you may decide that the stress of training isn't worth it or, sadly, may be driven to commit suicide. Whatever the iteration, the point is that some people will develop these things and some people don't in response to nearly identical stressors.

It really is PC in a slightly more convoluted and complex form; it puts forth the idea that we're all equal, and if only you went through the things I did, you would've developed in the same ways and dealt with the same things that I did. Sorry, but that's simply not true. Most research rejects that idea.

And now...

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^ I don't disagree with any of that Nick.

My point was again just trying to let you know about the use of that particular word. For a lot of the population of people with mental illness it's coded in a particular (pejorative) way that I was merely trying to point out. Shoot there are lots of words like that, that may be neutral to the general population, but for different subsets they are coded in a very particular negative way. Language and culture are interesting like that. I mean take "uppity" or even "sin" they can have completely different associations for different groups of people. You can do with that what you want, I'm not asking you to self censor or anything, just trying to provide a different perspective.
 
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A lot of you seem to like to argue about pointless drivel. Get a hobby
 
It isn't about being politically correct. It is actually about not making patients with existing psychiatric issues feel worse about themselves. Several people with histories have chimed in echoing that it did, in fact, put them off and didn't make them feel all that great. If you want to actually help the students and physicians out there with mental illnesses and histories of mental illness, you might do well to actually listen to what the hell they are telling you about how things make them feel.

And yes, a perfectly normal person can be driven to suicide. People who lose everything to market crashes or lawsuits, for instance, or those that might serve prison time for white collar crimes are perfect examples. Sleep deprivation, substance abuse, or a mix of both can substantially alter the way a person sees the world, and result in them making a decision that they would not if they were in their right mind. If you couple stress, sleep deprivation, and high demands on a person, they might rapidly exceed their coping mechanisms and end up doing something that never would have occurred to them if they were working a chill 9-5 job and barbecuing on the weekends.
You've exhausted me. Question: can we say that people who commit suicide over academic stress are "not healthy"? Or is labeling them that problematic too?
 
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Let's ask the people who've successfully committed suicide what they think...
 
medical students discussing mental health is like asking a bonobo about nietzsche
 
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All I can say is "Never say never." Life is hard and sometimes unfair. Even the most well adjusted, mature individual with the best of coping skills may break if given the worst situation and circumstances...and those who have struggled and those who have contemplated suicide may survive. It's just how it is. I read somewhere about a medical student who is in jail for murder after killing his roommate (apparently he hadn't slept for days). Who is to say what happened there? Was there a pre-existing mental illness or the stress of medical school was too much or other situations in his life played a part. Who knows? Medical school is hard. So is real life. So is residency. And so is once you're a "real" practicing doctor. Some survive, some don't.
 
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