Medicare Proposes More Mandatory Bundled Payments

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ProRealDoc

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
1,404
Reaction score
300
For years, physicians have watched Medicare roll out pay-for-performance demonstration projects and ask for volunteers — soft healthcare reform, as it were.

The move from fee-for-service (FFS) to value-based reimbursement took a hard turn, however, when the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) last month proposed three bundled payment models for cardiac and orthopedic care that will be mandatory — not voluntary — for hospitals in select geographic areas. Some medical societies otherwise on board with value-based reimbursement worry that such mandated programs could represent bad news for physicians who operate at these hospitals.

"Medicare patients are best served by voluntary, physician-led, condition-based models," said American Medical Association (AMA) President and orthopedic hand surgeon Andrew Gurman, MD, in a news release.

The Society of Thoracic Surgeons (STS) voices similar concerns about the proposed bundled-payment programs, especially when it comes to physician leadership.

"We were a little dismayed to find them mandatory," said Keith Naunheim, MD, second vice president and secretary on the STS board, in an interview with Medscape Medical News. "We don't want to be forced into something that we didn't participate in forging."

However, the AMA, the STS, and other medical societies see a lot they like in the CMS proposal, especially the opportunity to prosper under the new payment arrangements created by the Medicare Access and CHIP Reauthorization Act (MACRA).

Bundled payments typically mean that Medicare or a private insurer sets a target price for an episode of care, such as a surgery — including several months of postdischarge care — that covers estimated charges by the hospital, physicians, and other providers. If these parties can come under budget, they share in the savings. If they go over budget, they owe the third-party payer money. Accordingly, the hospital and its care team are motivated to work together more efficiently to reduce postdischarge complications and revolving-door readmissions, which translate into bad health outcomes and higher spending.

That's a thumbnail sketch of what CMS wants to do in its proposal for three bundled episodes of care — acute myocardial infarction, coronary artery bypass grafts, and surgical hip/femur fracture treatment exclusive of lower-extremity joint replacement. The last mouthful is short for hip surgeries that don't involve a prosthesis.


The two cardiac bundles will go into effect at hospitals in 98 randomly selected metro areas. CMS will implement the orthopedic bundle in 67 metro areas that are now the assigned territory for a mandatory bundled payment program for hip and knee replacements that took effect April 1. The locales for this program, called the Comprehensive Care for Joint Replacement (CJR) model, include Los Angeles, California; St. Louis, Missouri; Portland, Oregon; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; and Miami, Florida.

CMS will test the three new bundles for 5 years beginning in July 2017. Each bundle will cover inpatient care and the 90 days following discharge. Shared savings initially would be capped at 5% of the target price, but the cap would gradually expand to as much as 20%. For the first 15 months of the experiment, CMS wouldn't require repayments from hospitals and their partners that exceeded their target price. Afterward, their risk increases in parallel with the shared savings potential.

Earlier Bundled Payment Program Criticized for Being Mandatory

When CMS floated its proposal for CJR, medical societies had some good things to say about it, and some bad things. The American Association of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS), for one, urged CMS to make the program voluntary. The AAOS argued that CJR would push hospitals and their affiliated surgeons into a new way of delivering care whether or not they had the necessary infrastructure — think visiting nurses and interoperable electronic health records (EHRs) — or enough patient volume to succeed.

The society also warned that orthopedic surgeons who didn't want to sign a bundled payment contract with their hospital, or weren't invited to, could be denied privileges, giving Medicare beneficiaries fewer physicians to choose from. In addition, Medicare's push for hospital-physician teamwork could prompt hospitals to simply buy orthopedic practices, which could drive up prices and also limit beneficiary access.

The American Association of Neurological Surgeons, the Congress of Neurological Surgeons, the American Association of Hip and Knee Surgeons, and the AMA made similar arguments in favor of a voluntary CJR program.

For its part, the AMA said in a letter to CMS that it "does not believe there is any need for a mandate to encourage participation in a properly designed bundled payment system." It pointed to widespread enrollment, at least initially, in a voluntary program called the Bundled Payments for Care Improvement. And like other groups, the AMA asked the government to make CJR available to any hospital in the country.

Bundled Payment Models Would Qualify as Advanced APMs

Despite entreaties to the contrary, CJR launched in April as a mandatory program in selected areas. Now organized medicine is weighing the new episode-of-care bundles proposed by CMS. The response so far has been mixed. One provision of the plan drew immediate praise — designation of the bundles as Advanced Alternative Payment Models (APMs) under draft regulations for MACRA.


Students of MACRA, which replaced Medicare's hated sustainable growth rate formula for reimbursement, know that the law set up two payment tracks. The default track for physicians, and the one most will participate in initially, is the Merit-Based Incentive Payment System (MIPS). It combines three existing Medicare incentive programs — the Physician Quality Reporting System, the Value- Based Payment Modifier, and the program for meaningful use of EHRs. In 2019, the bonuses and penalties are as high — or low — as 4% of Medicare FFS revenue.

Many physicians see less administrative hassle and more revenue potential in Advanced APMs, the other payment track in MACRA. Exempt from MIPS and its penalties, these models earn a lump sum bonus of 5% a year as long as they assume serious financial risk under their particular model. Examples of Advanced APMs include next-generation accountable care organizations, Comprehensive Primary Care Plus, and track 3 of the Medicare Shared Savings Program.

Draft regulations implementing MACRA distinguish between Advanced APMs and APMs pure and simple, which do not exempt participating physicians from MIPS. Orthopedic physicians, for example, were galled that the CJR program did not make the cut. That's no longer the case, however, in the latest bundled-payments plan from CMS. The agency said that CJR could now qualify as an Advanced APM, as could the new bundles for cardiac and orthopedic care.

"The changes they have proposed are amazing, and very positive," said Thomas Barber, MD, who chairs the AAOS Council on Advocacy. "We never thought Medicare would meet us halfway, and they are."

The AAOS is essentially resigned to the new orthopedic bundle being mandatory, given that they have no choice about its predecessor. "We would have preferred a voluntary sign-up, but that cat is out of the bag," said Dr Barber.

To his society, the CMS decision to recognize the old and new bundled payment programs as Advanced APMs is a victory that outweighs the defeat on mandatory-vs-voluntary. "It's not as much of a concern now," said Dr Barber.


Dr Naunheim at the STS also is happy that the cardio bundles will qualify as Advanced APMs, but he worries that there's been too little design input from thoracic surgeons to secure their buy- in, much less benefit patients. The STS, Dr Naunheim said, can offer CMS more than 2 decades' worth of outcome data to complement the agency's voluminous information on readmissions, medications, and spending.

"Medicare (alone) doesn't have the expertise or data to lead a quality improvement model," he said. "Unless we collaborate, it's not going to work. Hopefully, Medicare is listening to us."

The American Association for Thoracic Surgery (AATS) also wants CMS to listen to its insights on quality improvement. "We're a very data-driven specialty," AATS President Thoralf Sundt III, MD, told Medscape Medical News. "We've learned a lot about things such as drivers for readmissions and costs."

However, Dr Sundt doesn't find it offensive that the proposed bundles are mandatory.

"It's the next logical step for the government in exploring these new payment schemes," said Dr Sundt. "You can only go so far with voluntary participation."

"CMS Is Getting Pushy"

One veteran of organized medicine sees great potential in the proposed bundles for improving health outcomes and lowering costs, but sympathizes with those who advocate freedom of choice.

"The mandatory piece will be a bitter pill, but it's a reflection of the concern that CMS and members of Congress have, that if we don't get moving on new payment models, we won't achieve our cost-saving goals," said Jack Lewin, MD, president and chief executive officer of the Cardiovascular Research Foundation, in an interview with Medscape Medical News. "They feel like they need to put more pressure on.

"CMS is getting pushy."

If CMS doesn't relent on making the bundled payment models mandatory, then the agency needs to implement them more gradually than proposed, said Dr Lewin, who was formerly CEO of the American College of Cardiology and the California Medical Association. Right now, the new models are scheduled to debut in July 2017. For bundled models to succeed, he said, hospitals and physicians need to tap into a variety of patient-data sources, not just the hospital's EHR, and get that information quickly to manage care effectively. The necessary digital infrastructure isn't in place yet, said Dr Lewin.


"Maybe the move toward (value-based care) is moving faster than the system can accommodate it," he said.

Like others, Dr Lewin predicts that the CMS proposal for bundled payments will "accelerate the consolidation of physicians and hospitals," to the detriment of independent medical practices.

"I think that it's going to be a profound effect of it," he said. "Physicians and hospitals who aren't linked economically by virtue of employment or contractual exclusivity, I think they'll have a tougher time with bundles."

CMS is accepting comments on its bundled-payment proposal through October 3. The proposal explains how to submit comments.

Follow Robert Lowes on Twitter @LowesRobert


  • 26 comments

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I liked the part where cms isn't allowed to bargain on medication prices but they are allowed to force payment schemes onto physicians and hospitals.

"CMS will test the three new bundles for 5 years beginning in July 2017. Each bundle will cover inpatient care and the 90 days following discharge. Shared savings initially would be capped at 5% of the target price, but the cap would gradually expand to as much as 20%.:"

So basically they're going to underpay people for care until the continually decreasing payments go past the point where treating patients with those conditions becomes financially irresponsible for healthcare facilities. No indication for any active thinking on cms' part for how they're going to decrease costs, just planning on unilaterally decreasing payments without any rhyme or reason. Thanks Obama.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Let's keep making the system more labyrinthine and opaque so no one has any idea how the money is really flowing. It shields the bureaucrats from public scrutiny and allows them to look like the heroes while using doctors as scapegoats for runaway costs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Where can I find the details of what is in the cardiac bundle?

How do they come up with the $ amount for the bundle? Do they publish this type of stuff?
 
Let's take a complex system with many flaws and problems and complexify it even further. That ought to the trick! Sounds like bureaucracy as usual, compliments of the benevolent dictators in DC.
 
Translation? Get ready for the new norm - $200k range salaries.
 
Translation? Get ready for the new norm - $200k range salaries.
Yeah. Hopefully it's slow enough to take over that most of us will be reading about the effects in retirement, or at least on our way out.
 
That's a thumbnail sketch of what CMS wants to do in its proposal for three bundled episodes of care — acute myocardial infarction, coronary artery bypass grafts, and surgical hip/femur fracture treatment exclusive of lower-extremity joint replacement. The last mouthful is short for hip surgeries that don't involve a prosthesis.

Guess we'll be seeing a lot more THAs instead of ORIFs over the next few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is why you can't blame practices who choose to sell to AMCs. Get it while you can or be left in the dust holding nothing.
Risk transference.
 
This is why you can't blame practices who choose to sell to AMCs. Get it while you can or be left in the dust holding nothing.
Risk transference.

Slim, I couldn't disagree more. AMC's prey on fear and greed. Buyouts are great for some who wants a golden parachute but the sky has been falling for along time yet there are some of us still keeping the dream alive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Slim, I couldn't disagree more. AMC's prey on fear and greed. Buyouts are great for some who wants a golden parachute but the sky has been falling for along time yet there are some of us still keeping the dream alive.

They prey on greed more than fear...and lifestyle creep. Though maybe you are right. There is nothing scarier than owing money on that Maserati, boat, and second home and facing decreasing reimbursement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
They prey on greed more than fear...and lifestyle creep. Though maybe you are right. There is nothing scarier than owing money on that Maserati, boat, and second home and facing decreasing reimbursement.

I can't say that I am a big fan of bundled payments but we have managed to incorporate a few without too much difficulty.
 
Where can I find the details of what is in the cardiac bundle?

How do they come up with the $ amount for the bundle? Do they publish this type of stuff?
https://www.cms.gov/Newsroom/MediaReleaseDatabase/Fact-sheets/2016-Fact-sheets-items/2016-07-25.html

Looks like they intend to pay 50k for 90 days of care on a cabg including EVERYTHING minus whatever penalty they give you for missing quality markers.

Starts with no penalty but in a few years the penalty might be as high as 20%.
 
Last edited:
I think what this bundle will accomplish is that high risk cases will be declined since they are a money losing proposition.

And then they will claim that since bundles were instituted quality improved because the numbers look better on paper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
It is my understanding, and I could be totally wrong as I don't completely understand it all. CMS will determine the bundle price based on local factors for the first few years (I think it is two years). Then they will start comparing prices against less geographically matched areas and adjust. The first year I don't think hospitals are penalized if they don't meet the target price.

I think this initiative will start holding not only the health care systems accountable but also the patients. I personally hope this is a push to start looking at who we operate on and when is really the right time to do so (if ever). I mean come on - we all know the patient who can't help themselves and we put in joints that get infected, fail or the patient has significant morbidity postop (all things we could predict would happen). Whether it be a systems problem or a personal problem.

The fact is, these changes are coming and so we can either embrace them or be miserable (b/c I realized we can't change whats happening no matter how much we disagree with it). I too think it's crap but the health care system as we know it is unsustainable. I hope that maybe physicians will become change generators and start trying to come up with reasonable solutions on how to fix some of the problems we have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Oh yeah, all the patients with high BMI, diabetes, smokers etc will not be having surgery for total joints at my hospital in the next year year or so. We are going with the Stryker protocol.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So when all the patients start getting denied their procedures, the question is how to make it clear that it is government intrusion that is denying them care and not the doctors involved.
 
I think this initiative will start holding not only the health care systems accountable but also the patients.

That's a nice thought.

The vast majority of patients never have and never will take a lick of responsibility for self-inflicted disease.

Sometimes people quit smoking, but I'm convinced most are motivated by economics ($14 for a pack of cigarettes in NY) not their own health.

The public thinks unlimited health care under all circumstances is an inalienable right. It'll be an outrageous social injustice when a person with a BMI of 50 is denied that knee replacement, one small step short of a Death Panel.

It may motivate physicans to step back from expensive futile care, and give us some social cover to actually do it.

A couple weeks ago I did a repeat double valve replacement on an IV drug user who'd wrecked the first ones with another round of endocarditis. What the hell are we doing? Maybe we need the government to step in and use the heavy hand of bundled reimbursement to stop us from doing stupid things like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Slim, I couldn't disagree more. AMC's prey on fear and greed. Buyouts are great for some who wants a golden parachute but the sky has been falling for along time yet there are some of us still keeping the dream alive.

I am glad your corner of anesthesia is holding the dream alive. I agree that the sky has been falling for decades. The only difference between then and now is this graph:

AN0715_020a_1935_425.jpg


Why then are we suddenly selling? Golden parachute alone? I don't think so. If anything the golden parachute monetary incentive has been decreasing over the last 5 years. The groups that sold early had the biggest rate of return from their M&A deal. Why would large groups that control markets (Denver, Phoenix, Dallas, etc) suddenly decide to give up their nest egg? After 30 years of the "sky is falling," the last five years have suddenly had an unprecedented number of M&A deals go through. Why?

Healthcare is in a state of transformation that has been put into law. We will see significant changes over the next 5 years. Is this thread just another brick into what will be our healthcare system in the future?

http://www.saignite.com/resources/faq-about-merit-based-incentive-payment-mips

Or is this the same old healthcare that our predecessors have seen? Either way, there is going to be further massive compliance overhaul.

No doubt some PP groups will weather the storm but many will fracture.

To add insult to injury, there is increased numbers of anesthesia practices being converted to hospital employeed positions. Take it or leave it is a common mantra that I have personally seen with other services outside of anesthesia. Bringing all services in house is becoming more and more common (look at cardiology, CT surgery, medicine, surgery, etc.) I have personally seen many hospital groups being replaced from one day to the other.

You may be right that AMCs prey on fear, but is the fear real?

For those whose regional landscape remain uncertain, the golden parachute is an exit strategy that transfers CMS changes and Hospital acquisition risk to the AMC.
It's business and economics that may make sense to groups that fall into that category.

I just can't blame them for taking the bait, even though I am and have always been a proponent of private practice. There is no better autonomy than a well run PP ship.

I think a key to weathering this storm is to continue to have the staff that understands complience and expand and potentially merge with other PP groups even if the merging group is located 400 miles away.

That does create some shelter and potentially better negotiated insurance contracts. If I was a small group of 20 or less, I would be looking at this option.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Oh yeah, all the patients with high BMI, diabetes, smokers etc will not be having surgery for total joints at my hospital in the next year year or so. We are going with the Stryker protocol.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I made a comment to one of our guys about how his patients last week seemed healthier. He replied that with this change coming, there is no way he is going to continue to be the dumping ground for high risk patients needing procedures. Thus, he has accepted being slightly less busy and only treating the relative chip shots.

Terrible news for patients that are not easy, but it is the way of the future.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I am glad your corner of anesthesia is holding the dream alive. I agree that the sky has been falling for decades. The only difference between then and now is this graph:

AN0715_020a_1935_425.jpg


Why then are we suddenly selling? Golden parachute alone? I don't think so. If anything the golden parachute monetary incentive has been decreasing over the last 5 years. The groups that sold early had the biggest rate of return from their M&A deal. Why would large groups that control markets (Denver, Phoenix, Dallas, etc) suddenly decide to give up their nest egg? After 30 years of the "sky is falling," the last five years have suddenly had an unprecedented number of M&A deals go through. Why?

Healthcare is in a state of transformation that has been put into law. We will see significant changes over the next 5 years. Is this thread just another brick into what will be our healthcare system in the future?

http://www.saignite.com/resources/faq-about-merit-based-incentive-payment-mips

Or is this the same old healthcare that our predecessors have seen? Either way, there is going to be further massive compliance overhaul.

No doubt some PP groups will weather the storm but many will fracture.

To add insult to injury, there is increased numbers of anesthesia practices being converted to hospital employeed positions. Take it or leave it is a common mantra that I have personally seen with other services outside of anesthesia. Bringing all services in house is becoming more and more common (look at cardiology, CT surgery, medicine, surgery, etc.) I have personally seen many hospital groups being replaced from one day to the other.

You may be right that AMCs prey on fear, but is the fear real?

For those whose regional landscape remain uncertain, the golden parachute is an exit strategy that transfers CMS changes and Hospital acquisition risk to the AMC.
It's business and economics that may make sense to groups that fall into that category.

I just can't blame them for taking the bait, even though I am and have always been a proponent of private practice. There is no better autonomy than a well run PP ship.

I think a key to weathering this storm is to continue to have the staff that understands complience and expand and potentially merge with other PP groups even if the merging group is located 400 miles away.

That does create some shelter and potentially better negotiated insurance contracts. If I was a small group of 20 or less, I would be looking at this option.

The total number of acquisitions for 2015 was 35. The pace will likely begin to slow going forward.

http://www.haverfordhealthcare.com/...ology-Practice-Acquisitions-January-20161.pdf
 
The public thinks unlimited health care under all circumstances is an inalienable right. It'll be an outrageous social injustice when a person with a BMI of 50 is denied that knee replacement, one small step short of a Death Panel.

It may motivate physicans to step back from expensive futile care, and give us some social cover to actually do it.

Truth bomb.
 
Amsurg/Sheridan very recently acquired 2 practices in Socal. This is a first for the SoCal region and word is they're aggressively pursuing more expansion in that region
 
This is the new norm.

Work harder for less... and LIKE it.

This is one step closer to the doom of our speciality as salaries drop. FML.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is why you can't blame practices who choose to sell to AMCs. Get it while you can or be left in the dust holding nothing.
Risk transference.

So I'm a fellow looking for a job and have been reading all about this changing environment.

Risk transference is an interesting point. It seems to me that the only risk reduction is in the actual lump sum buyout that the partners receive from the company. Salary at that point in seems to be subject to change based on the AMC keeping up their profits. I don't view the salary of the AMC as a gaurantee. For example, I just received an AMC contract and I am no lawyer but it essentially says: 1. If the AMC profits aren't enough (surgical volume, reimbursement changes, ect), we can give you 90 day notice and change your salary. Also, If the AMC loses the contract with the facility, they can terminate your a** immediately without any pay.

On the flip side it says you get 8 weeks PTO, but if we are short docs or volume is high, you will not be able to take vacation and you are not entitled to any compensation for unused PTO weeks.

Seems like if surgical volume or profits are low, you will make less. And if surgical volume is high and staffing is low you will work more without anything extra. Seems like risk without reward to me. I dunno maybe I'm reading it wrong and somebody can tell me that these sort of things are normal for a contract. Most of the verbage from this AMC seems one sided and like they put as much risk on the employee in order to ensure that they can make 100k per doc no matter what.
 
You are reading it correctly. They will make a lot of money off you and if they suck at what they do...which most do...they won't be transparent and just take more from you or just fire you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
So I'm a fellow looking for a job and have been reading all about this changing environment.

Risk transference is an interesting point. It seems to me that the only risk reduction is in the actual lump sum buyout that the partners receive from the company. Salary at that point in seems to be subject to change based on the AMC keeping up their profits. I don't view the salary of the AMC as a gaurantee. For example, I just received an AMC contract and I am no lawyer but it essentially says: 1. If the AMC profits aren't enough (surgical volume, reimbursement changes, ect), we can give you 90 day notice and change your salary. Also, If the AMC loses the contract with the facility, they can terminate your a** immediately without any pay.

On the flip side it says you get 8 weeks PTO, but if we are short docs or volume is high, you will not be able to take vacation and you are not entitled to any compensation for unused PTO weeks.

Seems like if surgical volume or profits are low, you will make less. And if surgical volume is high and staffing is low you will work more without anything extra. Seems like risk without reward to me. I dunno maybe I'm reading it wrong and somebody can tell me that these sort of things are normal for a contract. Most of the verbage from this AMC seems one sided and like they put as much risk on the employee in order to ensure that they can make 100k per doc no matter what.

That is exactly what they do, I've seen it first hand. Can't fill doc spots because most of the time these jobs suck and the rest of you get to pick up the slack with no compensation.
Anyone considering a contract with these AMCs particularly must have language inserted to address this situation, or WALK AWAY!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So I'm a fellow looking for a job and have been reading all about this changing environment.

Risk transference is an interesting point. It seems to me that the only risk reduction is in the actual lump sum buyout that the partners receive from the company. Salary at that point in seems to be subject to change based on the AMC keeping up their profits. I don't view the salary of the AMC as a gaurantee. For example, I just received an AMC contract and I am no lawyer but it essentially says: 1. If the AMC profits aren't enough (surgical volume, reimbursement changes, ect), we can give you 90 day notice and change your salary. Also, If the AMC loses the contract with the facility, they can terminate your a** immediately without any pay.

On the flip side it says you get 8 weeks PTO, but if we are short docs or volume is high, you will not be able to take vacation and you are not entitled to any compensation for unused PTO weeks.

Seems like if surgical volume or profits are low, you will make less. And if surgical volume is high and staffing is low you will work more without anything extra. Seems like risk without reward to me. I dunno maybe I'm reading it wrong and somebody can tell me that these sort of things are normal for a contract. Most of the verbage from this AMC seems one sided and like they put as much risk on the employee in order to ensure that they can make 100k per doc no matter what.

The only way to get that kind of language out of an AMC contract would be to unionize. There's always another sucker behind you willing to step right into that job.
 
So I'm a fellow looking for a job and have been reading all about this changing environment.

Risk transference is an interesting point. It seems to me that the only risk reduction is in the actual lump sum buyout that the partners receive from the company. Salary at that point in seems to be subject to change based on the AMC keeping up their profits. I don't view the salary of the AMC as a gaurantee. For example, I just received an AMC contract and I am no lawyer but it essentially says: 1. If the AMC profits aren't enough (surgical volume, reimbursement changes, ect), we can give you 90 day notice and change your salary. Also, If the AMC loses the contract with the facility, they can terminate your a** immediately without any pay.

On the flip side it says you get 8 weeks PTO, but if we are short docs or volume is high, you will not be able to take vacation and you are not entitled to any compensation for unused PTO weeks.

Seems like if surgical volume or profits are low, you will make less. And if surgical volume is high and staffing is low you will work more without anything extra. Seems like risk without reward to me. I dunno maybe I'm reading it wrong and somebody can tell me that these sort of things are normal for a contract. Most of the verbage from this AMC seems one sided and like they put as much risk on the employee in order to ensure that they can make 100k per doc no matter what.

I guareentee you 100% that you will NEVER see the same contract coming out of residency or fellowship as the established partners who negotiated a merger and gave up their shares to the AMC.

Big groups pay millions in fees to M&A attorneys in order negotiate the absolute best deal (not just a buy out).

Big difference. The risk transference is there for the established partners. Unfortunately it typically is not there for the new hires of the AMC ship.
 
How is the anesthesia reimbursement determined in the case of a bundled payment? Who decides what percent of the 50k for the procedure that anesthesia will receive? If the leaders from each party sit down with hospital admin and hash it out, what incentivizes the AMC to argue for a larger piece of the pie if they have the ability to change employee salaries in order to keep up profits? Maybe I am way off base but if Joe the hospital CEO is given 50k for cabg and has different people asking for a piece he has a tough decision to make. Bob the AMC leader says don't worry Joe im cool with what you gave me (because in his mind he knows that he can just slash employee salaries a little bit in order to keep his profit). Taking less may even be a win for him if the hospital admin now sees him as a team player and is more likely not to fire the AMC. Am I nuts? Obviously I don't know much and am making assumptions. Would love to hear how you guys have seen bundled payments determined and how you think they will effect the AMC going forward.


I guareentee you 100% that you will NEVER see the same contract coming out of residency or fellowship as the established partners who negotiated a merger and gave up their shares to the AMC.

Big groups pay millions in fees to M&A attorneys in order negotiate the absolute best deal (not just a buy out).

Big difference. The risk transference is there for the established partners. Unfortunately it typically is not there for the new hires of the AMC ship.

So the AMC creates an original employment contract, the group members have lawyers change it up to protect against stuff like "we can fire you immediately for anything, change your pay whenever we want, have you forfeit your vacation if we are understaffed, and if you leave for any reason you have to move out of the city to get another job"? Then the AMC turns around and sends out that original contract to new hires?

Obviously I'm naive, but I would like to think that the group creates a contract with the AMC , then that becomes their standard contract for new hires. The younger partners with years left and some intentions of hanging around would want a contract that allows them to hire good people that they like and not just the people that are desperate to sign anything.
 
I guareentee you 100% that you will NEVER see the same contract coming out of residency or fellowship as the established partners who negotiated a merger and gave up their shares to the AMC.

Big groups pay millions in fees to M&A attorneys in order negotiate the absolute best deal (not just a buy out).

Big difference. The risk transference is there for the established partners. Unfortunately it typically is not there for the new hires of the AMC ship.

I agree this is true for the FIRST five year contract that the established docs sign. After that, I would expect things to be pretty even going forward. Maybe some mild seniority based perks.
 
I guareentee you 100% that you will NEVER see the same contract coming out of residency or fellowship as the established partners who negotiated a merger and gave up their shares to the AMC.

Big groups pay millions in fees to M&A attorneys in order negotiate the absolute best deal (not just a buy out).

Big difference. The risk transference is there for the established partners. Unfortunately it typically is not there for the new hires of the AMC ship.


Those poor partners only made 2.8mil as opposed to 3 million on the sell bc the attorneys got their cut. Those new hires don't deserved to be payed fairly. Really?
 
Those poor partners only made 2.8mil as opposed to 3 million on the sell bc the attorneys got their cut. Those new hires don't deserved to be payed fairly. Really?

Of course they deserve to be paid fairly. Who is saying they don't deserve to be payed fairly??
The point is, the AMC owns the practice and they control the chips. No way around that fact.
 
Doctors in the past formed partnerships and larger groups to be better able to negotiate with insurance companies and create leverage with hospitals. Now we are adding yet another middleman and creating another layer of bureaucracy with the creation of AMCs. Once again physicians are going to have to realize that there is strength in numbers because one solo doc just out of residency is sure as heck not going to be able to negotiate with these corporations. All the AMCs serve to do is push physicians one rung lower in the healthcare hierarchy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Of course they deserve to be paid fairly. Who is saying they don't deserve to be payed fairly??
The point is, the AMC owns the practice and they control the chips. No way around that fact.

Based on the contract in front of me, the AMC says the employee don't deserve to be paid "fairly". I guess it's more like the AMC doesn't gaurantee squat and they transfer much of the risk of decreased future reimbursement rates and facility needs onto the employee by reserving the right to fire you, take away your base salary, and take away your pto. The AMC determines what is fair based on this contract. If they take a hit on reimbursement rate or surgical volume then it is fair to them to decrease your salary or fire you. In their eyes it is also fair that if surgical volume increases, cases run late, docs retire, and the hospital wants extra trauma/pedi/cardiac call then they ask you to be a team player and get the job done.

I think ultimately, like others have said before, as long as new people are desperate enough to take these jobs and the market allows it, the AMC doesn't have to change. Seems like they will get either poor candidates or people desperate to be in a location.

Now when the younger partners agree to "team up" with the AMC, do they know what the AMC contract says for future new hires? If I was a young partner and wanted to stay and work with good talented people, I wouldn't want the AMC offering terrible contracts and just taking whoever will sign it. In college, my football coach put tons of value not just into signing a recruit that could run a 4.4 40yrd dash, but into the type of guy he was on and off the field and how he would fit into the culture of the team. As a result, we had a fantastic group of guys with incredible chemistry and won tons of games. If I were a young partner at a group that was high functioning with a great morale, I wouldn't want the new "coach" just bringing in whoever is willing to sign up for the lowest dollar or riskiest contract. What do you all think?
 
Based on the contract in front of me, the AMC says the employee don't deserve to be paid "fairly". I guess it's more like the AMC doesn't gaurantee squat and they transfer much of the risk of decreased future reimbursement rates and facility needs onto the employee by reserving the right to fire you, take away your base salary, and take away your pto. The AMC determines what is fair based on this contract. If they take a hit on reimbursement rate or surgical volume then it is fair to them to decrease your salary or fire you. In their eyes it is also fair that if surgical volume increases, cases run late, docs retire, and the hospital wants extra trauma/pedi/cardiac call then they ask you to be a team player and get the job done.

I think ultimately, like others have said before, as long as new people are desperate enough to take these jobs and the market allows it, the AMC doesn't have to change. Seems like they will get either poor candidates or people desperate to be in a location.

Now when the younger partners agree to "team up" with the AMC, do they know what the AMC contract says for future new hires? If I was a young partner and wanted to stay and work with good talented people, I wouldn't want the AMC offering terrible contracts and just taking whoever will sign it. In college, my football coach put tons of value not just into signing a recruit that could run a 4.4 40yrd dash, but into the type of guy he was on and off the field and how he would fit into the culture of the team. As a result, we had a fantastic group of guys with incredible chemistry and won tons of games. If I were a young partner at a group that was high functioning with a great morale, I wouldn't want the new "coach" just bringing in whoever is willing to sign up for the lowest dollar or riskiest contract. What do you all think?

I think it depends on your hospital. Culture varies so much institution to institution. Some care about those things, some don't.
Moonlighting a few times for an AMC was an eye opening experience for me. It's scary how some places are ok with just being good enough in the realm of anesthesia.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think it depends on your hospital. Culture varies so much institution to institution. Some care about those things, some don't.
Moonlighting a few times for an AMC was an eye opening experience for me. It's scary how some places are ok with just being good enough in the realm of anesthesia.

If you aren't getting paid extra. Why bother putting in a peripheral nerve catether plus taking phone calls for for pain management.

Would you call that "being just good enough" with single shot nerve block and not doing the nerve catether.
 
If you aren't getting paid extra. Why bother putting in a peripheral nerve catether plus taking phone calls for for pain management.

Would you call that "being just good enough" with single shot nerve block and not doing the nerve catether.

I wouldn't even know where to start to tell you the crap I saw there. Stuff I would consider dangerous, not just lazy.
The money for locums was really, really good because they were desperate and I still wouldn't go back.
 
Based on the contract in front of me, the AMC says the employee don't deserve to be paid "fairly". I guess it's more like the AMC doesn't gaurantee squat and they transfer much of the risk of decreased future reimbursement rates and facility needs onto the employee by reserving the right to fire you, take away your base salary, and take away your pto. The AMC determines what is fair based on this contract. If they take a hit on reimbursement rate or surgical volume then it is fair to them to decrease your salary or fire you. In their eyes it is also fair that if surgical volume increases, cases run late, docs retire, and the hospital wants extra trauma/pedi/cardiac call then they ask you to be a team player and get the job done.

I think ultimately, like others have said before, as long as new people are desperate enough to take these jobs and the market allows it, the AMC doesn't have to change. Seems like they will get either poor candidates or people desperate to be in a location.

Now when the younger partners agree to "team up" with the AMC, do they know what the AMC contract says for future new hires? If I was a young partner and wanted to stay and work with good talented people, I wouldn't want the AMC offering terrible contracts and just taking whoever will sign it. In college, my football coach put tons of value not just into signing a recruit that could run a 4.4 40yrd dash, but into the type of guy he was on and off the field and how he would fit into the culture of the team. As a result, we had a fantastic group of guys with incredible chemistry and won tons of games. If I were a young partner at a group that was high functioning with a great morale, I wouldn't want the new "coach" just bringing in whoever is willing to sign up for the lowest dollar or riskiest contract. What do you all think?

This is corporate medicine. People sitting in cubicles have had to deal with this for decades....downsizing, paycuts, etc.. Private practice guys have to cut vacations short if there is an acute need or accept lower pay if volume goes down. However, I think the point you are making is the complete lack of control. You are at the mercy of others making decisions for you who do not have your bests interests (or even the hospital's or patient's interests) in mind. When you are in a private practice you can determine what you want in terms of work/life balance as a group and develop a staffing plan based on that as well as any planned expansion in the future. These corporation don't care, so long as the work gets done by someone. You are just a warm body to them. Their thinking is to squeeze every last drop of work out of you until you get fed up and move on. There is someone right behind you to take your place.

Most people go into medicine because the thought of being in the corporate world and answering to some middle management weenie is just unappealing. Well, this is the new reality in medicine. You are not your own boss, you don't have autonomy, and you will be answering to some middle management weenie for the rest of your career.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This is corporate medicine. People sitting in cubicles have had to deal with this for decades....downsizing, paycuts, etc.. Private practice guys have to cut vacations short if there is an acute need or accept lower pay if volume goes down. However, I think the point you are making is the complete lack of control. You are at the mercy of others making decisions for you who do not have your bests interests (or even the hospital's or patient's interests) in mind. When you are in a private practice you can determine what you want in terms of work/life balance as a group and develop a staffing plan based on that as well as any planned expansion in the future. These corporation don't care, so long as the work gets done by someone. You are just a warm body to them. Their thinking is to squeeze every last drop of work out of you until you get fed up and move on. There is someone right behind you to take your place.

Most people go into medicine because the thought of being in the corporate world and answering to some middle management weenie is just unappealing. Well, this is the new reality in medicine. You are not your own boss, you don't have autonomy, and you will be answering to some middle management weenie for the rest of your career.


And if you don't answer to them, there will be a CRNA knocking on the door to answer to them.
 
Top