Medicine in France

[wallstreet1986]

I read on a website that the current salary for surgeons is somewhere between 65 and 120 thousand euros depending on specialty and location in France.

Someone also has written that there is a surplus of doctors in Germany and possibly in France also.

Does anyone know if the French system makes it impossible like the British to practice medicine as a foreigner there?

More info on practicing in France.

Thanks.

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[DrIng]

Hi,
The following link might be useful, sorry it's a bit long.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/cont...EX=30&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1,2,3,4

What makes you think it's impossible to practice medicine in the UK, it doesn't seem to be any harder than the US, and at least the cost of the testing process is less...

Hope all this is of use.

 

[wallstreet1986]

Thank you that was very helpful.

I'd rather go where I'd be of use and in France it doesn't sound like there is a shortage of doctors. It's a shame because I really love France and would be willing to sacrifice a lot of income to live there but maybe Quebec would be the next best thing. They have a great shortage of doctors in Canada.

 

[Miklos]

Thank you that was very helpful.

I'd rather go where I'd be of use and in France it doesn't sound like there is a shortage of doctors. It's a shame because I really love France and would be willing to sacrifice a lot of income to live there but maybe Quebec would be the next best thing. They have a great shortage of doctors in Canada.

Wallstreet,

Canada may need doctors, but IMGs are quite frankly unwelcome there.
If you are serious about Canada, I suggest that you check out the Canadians forum on www.valuemd.com for more info on the hurdles IMGs face.

With regard to France; my understanding is that foreigners face a lot of xenophobia trying to practice medicine there.

Good luck.

Miklos

 

[wallstreet1986]

Thanks for your advice Miklos.

It's strange that foreign countries with physician shortages are so reluctant to accept IMGs (especially Americans-- not being arrogant here but many people from other countries come to study at American med schools.)

America would do well also to allow more physicians from other countries to immigrate here. We need to solve the shortage problem and educated foreigners should definitely have priority over illegal aliens.

How's the system of medicine in Hungary? I've heard that certain procedures (especially dental or plastic surgery) are often two to three times cheaper in Hungary and many people visit the country for that purpose. While the prices may be lower and salaries I would assume lower also, you can live on a lot for less.

I visited Budapest in 1998 and was really impressed with the food, culture, and variety of things to do there without paying exorbitant prices like you would in Paris.

Might I as an American be able to do a summer internship here and what are physician salaries like in Hungary?

Thanks.

By the way I'm an adventurous soul and would not be adverse to learning other languages. (I know a lot of French and I'm fluent of course in English.)

 

[Miklos]

Thanks for your advice Miklos.

It's strange that foreign countries with physician shortages are so reluctant to accept IMGs (especially Americans-- not being arrogant here but many people from other countries come to study at American med schools.)

Most countries to one degree or another limit physicians trained in other places.

America would do well also to allow more physicians from other countries to immigrate here. We need to solve the shortage problem and educated foreigners should definitely have priority over illegal aliens.

The statistics show that almost 23% of physicians practicing in the US are IMGs (see http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/1550.html), the percentage of postgraduate trainees is almost 25%. I don't know of a country (even with its current restrictions) that is as welcoming to IMGs as the US.

How's the system of medicine in Hungary? I've heard that certain procedures (especially dental or plastic surgery) are often two to three times cheaper in Hungary and many people visit the country for that purpose. While the prices may be lower and salaries I would assume lower also, you can live on a lot for less.

Dental surgery and elective surgery can be had for bargain prices. This is why Austrians and Germans flock to Hungary for those kinds of procedures.

I visited Budapest in 1998 and was really impressed with the food, culture, and variety of things to do there without paying exorbitant prices like you would in Paris.

Might I as an American be able to do a summer internship here and what are physician salaries like in Hungary?

Thanks.

By the way I'm an adventurous soul and would not be adverse to learning other languages. (I know a lot of French and I'm fluent of course in English.)

The prices have since increased exponentially, especially if you calculate in US dollars. See http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/popups/costofliving/popup.html for the list of the world's most expensive cities. Budapest has risen to #34 beating a ton of North American and European cities. IMHO, it is due to a lack of competition in the domestic marketplace, coupled with a highly restrictive regulations.

Physician salaries are a pittance. Recently, the law changed to bring Hungary into line with EU standards regarding postgraduate medical training, meaning that the length of time spent in residency has been extended. To add insult to injury, residents make roughly US $400 a month (plus about US $150 for a living allowance) while working like serfs for their professors.

As a result, Hungary will very soon experience a physician shortage, as med. students and residents abandon Hungary for more lucrative markets in the West.

Doing an elective isn't a problem. Contact the clinical department of your choice at whichever university you would like to. Be prepared for a very different experience.

 

[brightblueeyes]

(Yes, I know this is an old post. )

With regard to France; my understanding is that foreigners face a lot of xenophobia trying to practice medicine there.

I don't think it's xenophobia. But there is one big barrier: foreign doctors, with the exception of EU, Swiss and Norwegian doctors, are asked to take and pass an admission test for a French med school, their "concours". But once they have done this and taken any short follow up training that may be suggested, they are treated like local doctors.

I know of several anglophone doctors here (variously trained in Canada, the UK and the US) and I doubt they have been victims of xenophobia.

Someone also has written that there is a surplus of doctors in Germany and possibly in France also.

There's actually a shortage of family doctors in a number of rural regions of France. If you want to practice Family Medicine and if you pass the "concours" for a French Med school you would be very, very welcome in one of these areas.

 

[Precious9]

(Yes, I know this is an old post. )

"I know of several anglophone doctors here (variously trained in Canada, the UK and the US) and I doubt they have been victims of xenophobia."

Could you by any chance provide their contacts? I am very much interested in finding out what it would take to get a residency in France after completing medical training in the UK. How easy/hard is it to transfer from one EU country to another to complete the post graduate training regardless of citizenship issues (if let's say I marry a local or something...)

 

[brightblueeyes]

(Yes, I know this is an old post. )

"I know of several anglophone doctors here (variously trained in Canada, the UK and the US) and I doubt they have been victims of xenophobia."

Could you by any chance provide their contacts? I am very much interested in finding out what it would take to get a residency in France after completing medical training in the UK. How easy/hard is it to transfer from one EU country to another to complete the post graduate training regardless of citizenship issues (if let's say I marry a local or something...)

The people I referred to didn't do their postgrad training here. They did it in their home countries. The British doctor did postgrad training in the UK and the North American doctors worked in the UK first (and had their non-EU training accredited there) prior to moving to France. So I think France recognizes non-EU postgrad training if it's already accredited by some (or perhaps even all) EU countries.

I don't know if EU citizenship is required for applicants from non-French EU med schools who want to do post-grad training in France. (I don't think it's required for candidates from French med schools. But if these same people want to register as French doctors after their specialty training is completed, I think they're expected to have or acquire EU citizenship.)

If you obtain EU citizenship and have a degree from an EU school, I think you're automatically eligible to write the Epreuves Classantes Nationales or ECN. Check here for more info. There's a lot of material available to help students prepare for it and it's the only means of selection allowed for French "residencies" (i.e. the French "internat").

What this means is that the person who ranks first on the ECN gets to choose from all specialty training spots offered anywhere in France. And the person who ranks 50th gets to pick from all spots not already claimed by the top 49 candidates and so on. There are more spots than students so everyone is assured of getting something. But beyond the 1000th spot, your options might be limited to specialties like Family Medicine and in areas outside Paris and Mediterranian France. But after your training you're free to relocate anyway. Besides, France has finally decided to start offering doctors in underserved areas higher salaries.

Good luck.

 

[zizou]

France has shortage of docotrs, and they are bringing portuguese and tunisian docotors.

 

[lovelygrrl]

The people I referred to didn't do their postgrad training here. They did it in their home countries. The British doctor did postgrad training in the UK and the North American doctors worked in the UK first (and had their non-EU training accredited there) prior to moving to France. So I think France automatically recognizes non-EU postgrad training if it's already accredited by some (or perhaps even all) EU countries.

I don't know if EU citizenship is required for applicants from non-French EU med schools who want to do post-grad training in France. (I don't think it's required for candidates from French med schools. But if these same people want to register as French doctors after their specialty training is completed, I think they're expected to have or acquire EU citizenship.)

If you obtain EU citizenship and have a degree from an EU school, I think you're automatically eligible to write the Epreuves Classantes Nationales or ECN. Check here for more info. There's a lot of material available to help students prepare for it and it's the only means of selection allowed for French "residencies" (i.e. the French "internat").

What this means is that the person who ranks first on the ECN gets to choose from all specialty training spots offered anywhere in France. And the person who ranks 50th gets to pick from all spots not already claimed by the top 49 candidates and so on. There are more spots than students so everyone is assured of getting something. But beyond the 1000th spot, your options might be limited to specialties like Family Medicine and in areas outside Paris and Mediterranian France. But after your training you're free to relocate anyway. Besides, France has finally decided to start offering doctors in underserved areas higher salaries.

Good luck.

That is very encouraging to hear. I am currently studying medicine in Brazil and I'd like to practice medicine in France when I'm done since I am getting married to a Frenchman. I have Portuguese citizenship too, so I suppose from what you're saying I would need to get my training validated in any EU country (like your friends did in the UK) and then I could practice in France, right? Do you think it would be easier to just get the training validated in France since I would want to be working there anyways, or should I do it in Portugal?

 

[brightblueeyes]

That is very encouraging to hear. I am currently studying medicine in Brazil and I'd like to practice medicine in France when I'm done since I am getting married to a Frenchman. I have Portuguese citizenship too, so I suppose from what you're saying I would need to get my training validated in any EU country (like your friends did in the UK) and then I could practice in France, right? Do you think it would be easier to just get the training validated in France since I would want to be working there anyways, or should I do it in Portugal?

I checked the conditions for practicing Medicine in France set out by the Ordre National des Médecins and discovered the following excerpt:

NB : Equivalence ou homologation européennes d’un titre étranger
Lorsqu’un ressortissant communautaire présente un titre de médecin acquis en dehors de l’Union européenne mais reconnu par équivalence ou homologation dans un Etat membre, la demande de l’intéressé fait l’objet d’un examen par les services du ministère de la santé qui sont tenus de prendre en considération l’ensemble des diplômes, certificats et autres titres ainsi que l’expérience pertinente de l’intéressé, en procédant à une comparaison entre d’une part les compétences attestées par ces titres et cette expérience et d’autre part la qualification exigée par la législation nationale (Cour de justice des communautés européennes – HOCSMAN 14 septembre 2000 ; article 42 quater et quinquies de la directive 2001/19/CE du 14 mai 2001 ; article L.4111-2, II du code de la santé publique).
Le médecin qui prétend au bénéfice de cette jurisprudence doit formuler sa demande auprès de la Direction de l’hospitalisation et de l’organisation des soins au Ministère de la santé : Bureau M1 - 14 avenue Duquesne - 75350 PARIS SP 07.

So it looks like recognition may not be automatic after all. Please check with the Ordre National des Médecins. The good news is that your Portugese nationality should make things easier than they'd otherwise be.

Good luck.

 

[rolandnassim]

Hello there,

I currently live in Montreal Canada where I completed a bachelor and a masters degree.

I am thinking of studying medicine in France. I am not sure where to start. I need all the info I can get. (admissions, schools, locations, costs of living, etc...)


PLEASE HeLP

Roland

 

[brightblueeyes]

Hello there,

I currently live in Montreal Canada where I completed a bachelor and a masters degree.

I am thinking of studying medicine in France. I am not sure where to start. I need all the info I can get. (admissions, schools, locations, costs of living, etc...)


PLEASE HeLP

Roland

Unless things have changed, you need to apply through a French embassy or consulate (such as the one in Montreal). You would pick up an application package there in November/December and fill out the appropriate forms and get everything back to them by some time in January. Please check with your consulate for the correct dates and any changes that may have been adopted in the application procedure.

If the primary language of instruction of any of your schooling (high school or university) was French, I think you are exempt from their language test. Otherwise, you need to sit a French test at your consulate some time in March or April (I forget which).

Tuition is extremely low, about $200 or so. But students are also expected to pay for health insurance, etc. So long as you are under 28, you qualify for one of the special student plans here and I think they're about $1000 or so.

The biggest expense here, by far, is the cost of living. It's not too bad in most of France but it's very high in Paris. Expect to pay about $700 per month for a tiny, unfurnished and unprepossessing Paris studio. Fortunately, it's possible to get a small allowance to help cover rent here. (The size of this allowance depends on your salary and I think the maximum is about $200.) Food is also more expensive, especially in restaurants.

One bonus about studying here is that I think France might be the only country in the world that starts to pay students while they're still in med school. It's not much, but students receive a stipend during their last three years of med school. (The stipend is enough to cover tuition, health insurance and part of your rent. I think you only receive it during French "stages", though, so you have to do without it while on an Erasmus or North American clinical exchange.)

Although there are some obvious pluses to studying Medicine here, there are also some big minuses. There are a lot of students in first year and French universities spend very little on student support or student services in general. Also, students have to make it into the numerus clausus to proceed to second year. These conditions combine to make first year here every bit as stressful and unpleasant as many people make it out to be. Also, first year med students in France have some traditions similar to that of Engineering students back in Canada. So, rather than being especially "mature" and "quiet", French med students (in first year) are noisy and occasionally play pranks on rival French med schools. There're also a number of curious traditions that are passed from one first year class to another. A lot of students say they help improve "morale". They tick off some professors and some of the students, though, so I'll let you be the judge.

 

[Methodnike]

Thank you that was very helpful.

I'd rather go where I'd be of use and in France it doesn't sound like there is a shortage of doctors. It's a shame because I really love France and would be willing to sacrifice a lot of income to live there but maybe Quebec would be the next best thing. They have a great shortage of doctors in Canada.

Getting licenced in Quebec is fairly easy if you have a US training. Quebec accepts all USMLE steps. you would to do further tests though.
more info here : www.cmq.org

 

[erichaj]

Getting licenced in Quebec is fairly easy if you have a US training. Quebec accepts all USMLE steps. you would to do further tests though.
more info here : www.cmq.org

What about the other Canadian provinces, like British columbia. Do they accept USMLE scores for US residency trained doctors?

 

[Pavlov]

Hi, guys...
Now, I'm having my residency of surgery in Moscow - Russia ( Residency in Russian is Ordinatura ) and really interest to have my Subspeciality of surgery in France.
Is there anyone here who could tell me, if it's possible for russian graduated surgeon to have fellowship training in France? If it is possible, how could I get there? My Ordinatura will end in next year, so I wish I could prepare my best for the chance to have my fellowship in France.
Apologize if my english isn't so good....

 

[Methodnike]

What about the other Canadian provinces, like British columbia. Do they accept USMLE scores for US residency trained doctors?

you have to check at each different provinces college of doctors. i'm no expert.

 

[aba]

Hi, I am argentinean, living in the US, I finished med scholl in Argentina, and here I am doing reasearch. My boyfriends is french and we want to go there. Would you mind telling me which paperwork should I do or if there is no chance at all?? Thank you so much!

andrea

 

[med_heidelberg]

There isnt a surplus of doctors in Germany, in fact there is a serious shortage. A lot of doctors are retiring or going abroad.

 

[meggie8716]

After reading this whole thread, it seems like it's going to be really difficult to actually GO to med school in France.

I'm a sophomore doing my undergrad in neuroscience in the US, and I was thinking of going to med school in France. I heard Paris wasn't the best place to go, and that I should look elsewhere. Is this true? What are some good medical schools in France for practicing neurosurgery?

Is it even wise to go into medical school in France after four years in the US? What should I be doing in order to prepare? What should i know?

I'm sorry these questions are so broad, but if anyone wants to just chat with me about this, too, that would be great!

Thanks for the help!

 

[Delano]

Hello I'm new here. I'm a medical intern form the Philippines. 25 years old. This year or the next I'll be leaving the Philippines for my residency.UK or Australia. I want to make doctor friends from all over the world. I hope to hear from you guys. Thank you very much.

Delano

 

[Raindrop423]

Sorry to dig up this thread again, but I was wondering if anyone could provide any information on going to med school in France for kind of a specific situation. Basically, I'm currently an undergrad pre-med at a pretty decent university in the US, but I've had some problems with my GPA, so I was looking into different options. My mother is French, so I have French (and, I guess, EU) citizenship and I'm fluent in French, so she suggested I look into going to med school there. But my understanding is that the BS I graduate with from here won't be recognized, so I would have to go through all 8 years of French medical training. And then that there would be additional hurdles to jump in order to come back to the US.

So, my question is: is it at all possible to go to France just for the equivalent of 4 years of med school and then come back to the US for residency, and would this ever be advisable, given citizenship and fluency in the language?

 

[brightblueeyes]

Sorry to dig up this thread again, but I was wondering if anyone could provide any information on going to med school in France for kind of a specific situation. Basically, I'm currently an undergrad pre-med at a pretty decent university in the US, but I've had some problems with my GPA, so I was looking into different options. My mother is French, so I have French (and, I guess, EU) citizenship and I'm fluent in French, so she suggested I look into going to med school there. But my understanding is that the BS I graduate with from here won't be recognized, so I would have to go through all 8 years of French medical training. And then that there would be additional hurdles to jump in order to come back to the US.

So, my question is: is it at all possible to go to France just for the equivalent of 4 years of med school and then come back to the US for residency, and would this ever be advisable, given citizenship and fluency in the language?

The short answer to your question is, no, it's not possible.

However, it is possible to get exempted from some courses in med school. There are two problems, though. The first is that you'd have to first pass the concours at a French med school. The first year is a collection of various courses like organic chemistry, biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, medical physics, etc that you may have taken before. There's no way you can be exempted from any of these, though, since they are used as a sort of entrance exam to screen students. You could have a PhD in physiology and you'd still have to take first year physiology. However, if you do well enough in these courses to make it into the numerus clausus, your university can then look at your previous courses and exempt you from any courses you've taken before.

But that leads to a second problem. After first year, most courses in French med schools aren't likely to have equivalents in non-medicine programs. If your degree is in biochemistry, you might be able to get out of second year biochemistry. You'd also be able to get exempted from an English course taught in second year. But the only people who are usually able to get exempted from many other courses have a degree from a foreign med school.

 

[Mano]

Interesting thread, got plenty of info already, thanks

For an attending in US, to relocate to France, is that mission impossible if not motivated to retrain there?

Thanks

 

[gabrielar029]

Hi, I am a romanian resident and I would like to work in France in a couple of years. Could you tell me if a residency training completed in Romania will be sufficient for that? I must say that in the meantime I've obtained a diploma as FFI in France and I speak French quite well . Thanks.

 

[DoctorBillsWife]

My husband and I along with our 9 month old son are thinking of moving to France (from US) for several years if not permently. My husband is taking pre-med classes now at a local university. If he was to transfer, finish his degree in France and then move back to US for Residency would he be able to practice in both countries? We might just stay in France but my husband wants to know if he will have the option of coming back to America if nessasary. I am planning on going to the Sorbonne in Paris for Archeology.

 

[sibalan]

hi everyone,
Im a paediatrician from india. Is it possible for me to do a specialisation in paediatrics in France. Can somebody help me by providing information about licensure for overseas doctors? Any exam that I could take to have my qualification from India recognised in France, so that I can pursue my higher education (in paediatrics )here.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[maple07]

I tried the link to bmj but it's empty! I got a bmj page with ads but no article. Any idea how I can read the link?

 

[cbcgingko]

Hi everyone, particularly brightblueeyes,

I am a fourth year America medical student and I'm interested in practicing medicine in France or Geneva Switzerland, after american residency.

I'm applying for either Emergency Medicine (3 or 4 years), Internal Medicine or combination EM/IM (5 years), my list is due Feb 25th!

My husband is French and I would have EU Community rights being his wife.

1) Best speciality: I want to practice in France or Geneva, and I am having trouble picking my speciality. I heard EM is not recognized in France or Geneva as a speciality yet. If this is true, I was considering the EM/IM 5 year program or just IM. Any suggestions? Would I have to repeat any residency in France or Geneva, for example if I did a 3 year IM or 5 year EM/IM training?

2) Getting my American training recognized: I read in previous posts that foreign docs go through the UK to have their training recognized, then go to France. Is this true? I am considering the UK and Ireland to get EU equivalence because I do not speak French yet (I'm going to France this summer to start learning). Alternatively, if not France, then practice in Geneva (Swizterland) because at least in Geneva has many international couples and everyone is english-speaking. Which country is easier to get my training recognized and start practicing? France or Swizterland?

3) Timing: I am trying to figure out the best time in my training to move to France or Geneva. I read if I go through the UK, I can do my first year residency (Intern year) in America then apply to the UK, I assume this is only for internal medicine. What are the benefits of doing this over finishing all 3 years of American Internal Medicine training? Or doing a fellowship in America then moving to France or Swizterland?

Thank you for any help you can provide!

 

[lazy_eye]

Hello, I am a medical resident of pediatrics in the Philippines. I am planning to move to France too in the future or so..Does anybody know where I can apply for hospitals that offer training for Pediatrics? I am registered here int he Philippiens currently and jknowledgeable in the French Language.

 

[cacophoniste]

salut ! pour exercer la médecine en France il faut necessairement un diplome de l'EU

 

[Dexterin]

salut ! pour exercer la médecine en France il faut necessairement un diplome de l'EU

I translate : " for exercing medecine in France, you must have a E.U. diploma."

But if you are a foreign dr, you can have the french diploma by :
- make a first year of medecine (very difficult, even if you are already a dr. because it's based on general science, not specialy medecine, only 10 to 15% of success)
- make a 6th year of university : if you pass the selection of the first year, you go directly in 6th year and you have to pass the "internate" ranking exam wich allow you to choose wich internate you are going to do.
- make your internate (but you are salary, you earn money during thoose year of internate)

++

 

[shreypete]

Hey there Dexterin, thanks for sharing the info. I have a couple of questions:

What if I have an EU diploma but I'm not a French citizen? How does it work then? Is there some sort of a language proficiency exam that needs to be cleared? I'm assuming that the French system is slightly similar to the American one when it comes to choosing a post-graduate field (specialist field)...in that we have to write an exam, and the rank determines the specialty we get? Is that true?

Secondly, how is the life for doctors/surgeons in France? I heard that they're not very well-paid? Is that true?

 

[Dexterin]

Hey there Dexterin, thanks for sharing the info. I have a couple of questions:

What if I have an EU diploma but I'm not a French citizen? How does it work then?

If you have a UE diploma, whatever your citizenship, you can work in France. You just have to register your diploma, that's all.

You have to pass all exam if you are not a doctor (no diploma at all).
If you have a non-UE diploma, you have just to do as i told in my last post.

Is there some sort of a language proficiency exam that needs to be cleared? I'm assuming that the French system is slightly similar to the American one when it comes to choosing a post-graduate field (specialist field)...in that we have to write an exam, and the rank determines the specialty we get? Is that true?

OK.

1st year of medecine (just after hight school) :
everbody can enter med school for this year. No selection at all. Med school is free in France (as every universities in France).
But at the end of the year, there's a limited number of places to enter in second year. Around 10 or 15% of the candidates have a place. And you can only be in 1st year of medecine twice. If you don't have your ticket for the second year during your two tries : it's finish, it's done, you'll not be a doctor. And of course, this right to try the exam twice is for all the french territory. No way to try in another french university.
>> So it's a big selection by your capacity of working hard during this 1st year who make you becoming a doctor. You can be the son of the Mayor, you can be very intelligent in highschool, if you miss the exam at the end of the year, if you are not in the top 10% of the candidates, you'll not be a doctor.

For my example : i was not very good in highschool. But i woke up in med school and if i was not good during the year, i had some luck the day of the exam ! ;-)

After you pass your exam as normal, no selection, you must just validate some lessons every year.

At the end of the 6th year :
It's the choice of your speciality, your internate.
For that, we take EVERY STUDENT in 6th year for a national exam.
(the exam of the 1st year is different in each university, not this one).
We call him ECN : Examen Classant National
(national ranking exam)

And with the ECN you have a list of from the first to the last one.
Around 7500 candidates pear year and ... 7500 places ! ;-)
And you can choose with your rank... what's left !
Each year we know the average rank you need per speciality.
To be a brain doctor in a parisian hospital : better than 200.
In a provincial hospital : better than 500.
To be a ophtalologist : better than 2000.
To be a knee surgeon : better than 3500.
To be a hand surgeon : better than... 50 ! ;-)
To be a family doctor... you can be the last one (7000) ! ;-))))

In fact, if you want to choose your speciality, you work hard for the ECN. If you don't care and want to be a family doctor... you just need to work enough for validate your year, but not for the ECN.
The program of the ECN is all lessons of 4th 5th and 6th year. Hard.

You follow ?

When you are intern, you are salary of the hospital, during your internate : between 1500 and 1800 euros (if you do nights). Enought to live well, it's better than the average of the population. Internate (wathever is your speciality, even family doctor wich is a speciality in France, Residents doesn't exists) is from 3 to 5 years.

Secondly, how is the life for doctors/surgeons in France? I heard that they're not very well-paid? Is that true?

http://www.who.int/whr/2006/media_centre/06_chap4_fig04_fr.pdf
As you can see : the paid is proportionnal at the PIB (brutal interior product, BIP ? ;-) around the world. That's means the quality of life is almost the same for a doctor in economical " almost similar" coutries.

I try to found a grid of salary per speciality and i'll post here. ;-)

But as i know, surgeons are well paid. They just have a quality of life difficult because they are a little bit "slaves" of their diploma. But don't worry, they all have Audi or Mercedes cars... to go on WE at their second house near the sea ... ;-)

 

[Dexterin]

Here is :

(2006)

Médecine générale 62 479 €
Moyenne des spécialistes 83 377 €
Anatomie cytologie pathologiques 95 106 €
Anesthésie réanimation 135 118 €
Cancérologie 139 860 €
Chirurgie 82 990 €
Dermato vénérologie 57 724 €
Endocrinologie et métabolisme 38 395 €
Gastro entérologie hépatologie 76 745 €
Gynécologie médicale 47 588 €
Gynécologie obstétrique 67 975 €
Hématologie 52 022 €
Médecin biologiste 161 747 €
Médecine interne 56 361 €
Médecine nucléaire 116 004 €
Médecine physique et de réadaptation 52 056 €
Néphrologie 101 675 €
Neurologie 60 734 €
Ophtalmologie 92 393 €
Oto-rhino laryngologie 68 179 €
Pathologie cardio vasculaire 97 775 €
Pédiatrie 59 666 €
Pneumologie 70 748 €
Psychiatrie 57 955 €
Radiologie imagerie médicale 119 050 €
Stomatologie 93 233 €

 

[shreypete]

Thanks a lot of that humorous post. I appreciate it. But now I have even more questions lol (if you don't mind):

1) Is there a French language exam to pass other than a medical exam? Because I don't speak good French so I must take French courses to get better.

2) How hard is the ECN? and What is the format of the exam? ( is it multiple choice? or written? or computerized?) Can you list out a few subjects that will be tested? Because I think the subjects that we do are slightly different to what you do in France. I'm currently studying in Prague, Czech Republic but I'm not an EU citizen. So I guess, getting my degree validated will not be much of a problem.

I see that the salaries are quite good. I used to think that the doctors weren't well paid and that they didn't have a great life, but I'm mistaken.

I want to get into surgery so badly. I have one last question: What if I did my specialization in the US already? or in another EU country? and what if I want to move to France after that?

Thanks once again for your help. Seems like I should consider working in France as a 2nd option after all.

 

[chounotsubasa]

Hey guys,
Im new to this site. Seems there are lots of useful information here.
Well, I myself am non-EU citizen, expecting to receive EU diploma(not in france) and thinking of doing residency in france. I see that Dexterin said I would be qualified for ECN test based on EU diploma. Does anybody know where I can find official information regarding that matter?

Because I have seen in some other pages that I might not be qualified and need to take "le concour" and do those stuff to get residency position, its really confusing. almost as if "welcome to france"xD guess you guys know what I mean.
Well, anyway, it would be great if you guys can help me out.

 

[Dexterin]

1) Is there a French language exam to pass other than a medical exam? Because I don't speak good French so I must take French courses to get better.

I don't undestand you question... Can you be more specific ?

2) How hard is the ECN? and What is the format of the exam? ( is it multiple choice? or written? or computerized?) Can you list out a few subjects that will be tested? Because I think the subjects that we do are slightly different to what you do in France. I'm currently studying in Prague, Czech Republic but I'm not an EU citizen. So I guess, getting my degree validated will not be much of a problem.

It's a serie of medical case to solve... and you have to put some key words very specifics. Some forgotten key word give you a zero at the question. Some students put a lot of word and hop finding the good one : in some questions if you put too much, you loose points...
Preparing the ECN is very special, because you have to be formatted at what to write.

I see that the salaries are quite good. I used to think that the doctors weren't well paid and that they didn't have a great life, but I'm mistaken.

;-)

I want to get into surgery so badly. I have one last question: What if I did my specialization in the US already? or in another EU country? and what if I want to move to France after that?

You'll have to validate some exams/years because you are already a non UE-Dr :
- first year of medecine
- then the ECN (you go directly in 6th year)
- then do your internate

But if you have a E.U. diploma, nothing to do, your diploma is available in France.

 

[shreypete]

Hey Dexterin, Thanks for the info. again.

I will be finishing my medical diploma from a UE country (Czech Republic).

Are there any special courses or coaching centers that help you with the ECN exam?

Regarding the language exams, I mean do I need to take the DELF exam to prove my competency in the French language?

Thanks a lot again. You've been very resourceful

 

[haus]

Hi dear Colegues,

So I have EU degree in medicine. I speak french (low intermediate level) and interested to start a residency in France.

1. As I understand I just have to evaluate my degree ( But do not know where ???? and I have my diploma translated in french and I have a document that states that my degree is equivalent to some EU directive by EC 2005 or so)
2. I have to sit on exam ECN
3. I have to prove that I am good in french language.

Is that all ?

Please if someone is interested to clear up the things . I will be very thanksfull.

Do I have to register only in the region where I plan to start residency or there is a registration on a national level?

Happy New year to all collegues. I wish you all the best

 

[shreypete]

I think it's more like you're assigned to a residency program at one of the hospitals but you can chose to move once you're done.

Regarding the language, I'm not sure if you have to take the DELF exam to prove your linguistic competence.

For more specific info. regarding how to get your degree recognized and stuff, you can check out the following links:

http://www.conseil-national.medecin.fr/?url=qualif/pgraphe.php&offset=5

Regarding the ECN:

http://www.cnci.univ-paris5.fr/cnci_m/ECN2006.html

Happy New Year to you too!

 

[Dexterin]

Read this :

http://bulletin.conseil-national.medecin.fr/Archives/html/203/203BOMN203P10A1.htm

 

[jackdaniels13]

Hi.. I'm from Egypt and I am 2 months away from finishing my internship, and I would like to take my residency in france, but I dont know where to apply or where to start..
I speak very good french & I took a course of medical french.
please guide me towards the start point.

 

[Taeroo]

Hello..

I have a question about going go France to study Medicine because of my

sister

My sister is university student, but not medical student.

She wants to go to France and want to take Medicine course and to be a

doctor..(We don't live in France..)

Is a foreigner possible to study Medicine and to be a doctor in France??

Please let me know^^ she really wants to be a doctor

Thank you!

 

[Lakstute]

Hello,

I am from EU country and finishing my internate. I am interesting in practicing medicine after my studies-after residency or during it.
I've read everything but still having some questions I need adjustments for:
1) Am i right in understanding,in France medicine studies consist of:
6 years basic studies
then internate
then residency of specialty
Could you correct me?

2)As I understood if you life in EU country and have EU diplome, you need nothing to do?
Well,in our country, after 6 years of basic studies we pass exam and get diplome, then we are practising (internate) for one year, passing another exam for primary license of doctor. After that we start residency studies.
So, if we get diplome after 6 years and if we want to get to France for residency still we need to pass ECN exam or we can participate will our one?

Actually I am interested in Ophthalmology specialty. I've read that "you must be better than 2000" from approximately 7000 then you can get this specialty. Could somebody tell me is just the ECN test score is based on the student diferentiation for specialty? I want to now the system and from what is made score if you want to practise, for example ophthalmology. ( In our country there is a huge formula which includes specialties exam score during basic studies, exams score after 6 years and a lot of other stuff...) Is this the same in France or is it sufficient to have only ECN test score?

Hope I've wrote clearly

 

[AAA424]

Hi guys particularlyhttp://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=296023 Dexterin and Brightblueeyes

I'm Majeed from Dubai. I just graduated from medical school and I wanna apply for residency program in France.

I'm interested in Orthopedics and wanna to do in it.
Please could you be able to answer my questions?

1. How long dose take to complete the residency program in France?
2. Should I do General Surgery during the residency and for how long? Or these five years are only pure Orthopaedics?
3. After the residency program can I do fellowship in any subspecility in Orthopaedics?
4. Where do you recommend to do the residency program? in Paris or out side Paris like Lyon?
5. During my residency my contact will be with the hospital or with the University?
Please Can you send me recommended Medical Centers excellent in Orthopaedics training?

 

[shreypete]

I might be able to answer a few questions here due to a few a my friends studying in France.

1) Regarding how long the residency programs (internate) are, you can check the following website:
http://www.residency-database.helmsic.gr/France

2) Regarding choice of specialty in or out of Paris...it's mainly based on your rank on the exam. Even the specialty you get into depends solely on your rank in the ECN.

3) Lastly, there is another problem. Since you're not from France, you can't directly enter into residency. You have to first enter into med school and then take the Concours after the first year and then you can skip directly to the final year, and then you take the ECN. So you will essentially waste 2 or more years in this process. It takes longer if you're not fluent in French...as it's an obvious requirement.

If France doesn't work, you can perhaps also look into Belgium...but I think the rules are very similar to that of France.

 

[AAA424]

Hey Guys,

I'm just graduated medical student and I'm going to do my Orthopeadics residency in France.
Any body knows which Universities are strong in orthopeadics?

Regards

 

[Olympias]

@chounotsubasa:
Does anybody know where I can find official information regarding that matter?
Yes, try to post here : http://www.e-carabin.net/forumdisplay.php?f=227
It's the forum of the National Medical Student Association.

@ shreypete
Are there any special courses or coaching centers that help you with the ECN exam?
Google : Conference Hippocrate, Cours Galien..
buy books lots of them (collection VG+++)

@ jackdaniels13
Starting point?
Choose an area.
Look into the universities by their Numerus Clausus NC : it's REALLY IMPORTANT! For example :
Toulouse had 1300 1st year med school student and only 119 will get into their 2nd year of med school
Caen had 1000 student in 1st year and 191 will get into med school the 2nd year so here Caen is better than Toulouse!
Call the "scolarité" to know when/how you can register for the 1st year
Show up and do all the paperwork
Work hard and pray GOOD LUCK!

@ Taeroo
Foreigner can apply to med school no worry. For next fall I think inscription are in july/august If she has any specific question feel free to pm me Good luck to her, really!

@ Lakstute

1) Am i right in understanding,in France medicine studies consist of:
6 years basic studies
then internate
then residency of specialty
Could you correct me?

That's right

2)As I understood if you life in EU country and have EU diplome, you need nothing to do?

I am not really sure..but I think that if you completed your studies in your EU country and if you are a doctor with everything that imply in your country then you can practice as a doctor in France and no need to do the whole residency thing.

Could somebody tell me is just the ECN test score is based on the student diferentiation for specialty?

Not it's not. ECN is the same exam for everyone in France and depending on your score you get to choose your city and your speciality.
And you don't really "choose" opth, you choose "surgical specialities" and having a degree in opth is a different story (involving maquette and some compulsory "stage")

Is this the same in France or is it sufficient to have only ECN test score?

Well en theorie it is. Once you passed the ECN, made a good score and got to choose your city and be able to say "okay I wanna do opth" then you will be. But in reality, some cities don't have any available position for something called "clinicat" which is compulsory if you want to be a surgeon.. so you got to wait until a position is available. You also have to be well "ranked" in your promo, I mean if you finished like I don't 500th and you are 6 interns and they were like 150th, 200th, yada yada BEFORE you, then for "rotation"? ("stage") you are the last one to choose and you may not compute the "maquette" with all the compulsory "stage'".. I don't know if it was really clear Feel free to pm me!


@ AAA424
Ok. So this is tricky. If you already are a doctor only PCEM1 and DCEM4 will be useful. If you are still a "student" and don't have the "doctor" title then everything is for you

1. How long dose take to complete the residency program in France?
PCEM1 : it's hard. It's long. It's crazy.
You will study physics, chem, biochem, anatomy, physiology, genetics, immuno, biotech, histology, embryology,..
There are NC = numerus clausus = places available for the 2nd year
Choose wisely your university and look at some facs :
how many student are they in the 1st year?
how many does get to the 2nd year?
is the NC decreasing or not? (in Toulouse it's - 10 places every year)

PCEM2/DCEM1 : you only have to get overall 10/20 to pass

DCEM2/DCEM3/DCEM4 : Morning at the hospital, afternoon in class, evening working.. because you will be preparing the ENC

DCEM4 : at the end of the year you will have to pass the ECN. It's called examen national classant but it's not really an exam. Every single med school student in France take it, the same day and can only take it once (if you want to retake it, you'll have to wait next year and some Uni don't let you do it..)
This exam will determine your city of residency and your speciality. For example there are only 200 places available in France for psychiatry (so if in the 1st 500; 200 want psychiatry and you are far away. You are screwed.
Ortho you must take surgical specialities = at the worse 3000 at the VERY WORSE (it would be better to be like in the 1500 first..)


2. Should I do General Surgery during the residency and for how long? Or these five years are only pure Orthopaedics?
It's complicated..
You will have 5 year of "general" surgical residency (you will see a lots of surgery who are not ortho). then thesis and you are a doctor
And you will have 2 at 4 years of "clinicat" and there you will only do ortho.

3. After the residency program can I do fellowship in any subspecility in Orthopaedics?
Yes during clinicat

4. Where do you recommend to do the residency program? in Paris or out side Paris like Lyon?
Depend a lot on your score. Tours is great too for ortho.

5. During my residency my contact will be with the hospital or with the University?
Forget about the Uni french administration is bad. Plain and simple.
Hospital..you will change every 6 month (but not in clinicat), your best friend is yourself, your contacts and the previous student


Please Can you send me recommended Medical Centers excellent in Orthopaedics training?
I don't even know if it exist.. you can google college des chirurgiens or orthopedie+name of the city you are interested in.. but unlike USA and others we are not that good at feedbacks here sorry.

Try : www.e-carabin.net or www.remede.org You will find tons of med school student there

Good luck everyone really