Michael Brown autopsy- what's going on?

[BlondeDocteur]

The New York Times released this "preliminary autopsy report" by Dr. Baden, retired chief ME for NYC and now autopsier-for-hire, preferably to the stars (a la Cyril Wecht).

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/u...icmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=3

His 'report' is really just the face sheet, a piece of paper with the standard anatomy position view, the entry/exit wounds detailed, and some handwritten scribbles. Dr. Baden is also commenting extensively to the media re: his findings before, you know, tox and micro and histology and all that, and before going to court.

Oh, and his assistant is a diener who has elevated himself to the title of "Professor," previously in hot water for performing autopsies without pathology supervision and inventing a boatload of falsified credentials for himself. (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_0662e5b1-dcfa-578f-9487-8ab6a176ea4d.html)

So my question is: What on earth? Is this kosher?!

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[mlw03]

Get used to seeing stuff like this. Autopsy assistants being portrayed in the media as "pathologists", inaccurate reporting, etc. It's part and parcel in this world. In Dr. Baden's defense, in a mGSW case, about the only relevant ancillary study is tox. Doing histology of normal organs in a teenager is pointless. The ME may do it in this case because it's high profile, but I do simple homicides all the time without submitting histology, and that's common practice.

This kind of circus is what scares some otherwise interested residents away from forensic path.

 

[bps]

Everything is so dramatic about this case... I would question on court if 80 year old is the best person to be an expert witness! He can let his students show some expertise...

 

[coroner]

For those who are worried about going into pathology because of the job market, here's your golden ticket:

"Dr. Baden, 80, is a well-known New York-based medical examiner, who is one of only about 400 board-certified forensic pathologists in the nation."

With less than ten FP's per state you will be in exclusive company. So suck it up, run some bowel for a living, and guarantee landing a job...and maybe one day, you too can make headlines in The New York Times as a "celebrity medical examiner"

 

[mlw03]

For those who are worried about going into pathology because of the job market, here's your golden ticket:

"Dr. Baden, 80, is a well-known New York-based medical examiner, who is one of only about 400 board-certified forensic pathologists in the nation.".

With less than ten FP's per state you will be in exclusive company. So suck it up, run some bowel for a living, and guarantee landing a job...and maybe one day, you too can make headlines in The New York Times as a "celebrity medical examiner"

Not necessary, my man. FPs only run the bowel where there is specific concern for significant pathology, such as lower GI bleeding or a tumour. In a routine case, I examine the external surface of the bowel, palpate, and then into the organ bucket. No scissors required.

 

[coroner]

True. Sections of the terminal ileum aren't going to help when you've got a homicide with a GSW to the head. In fact, when I was a resident, the outgoing ME would only take 1 section of the cornary arteries on many of his cases just so he could submit some kind of tissue. And I even heard of some FPs who never took any sections (unless there was an unusual finding) and they would sign out a complete autopsy report based on history and gross examination...

 

[deleted314957]

True. Sections of the terminal ileum aren't going to help when you've got a homicide with a GSW to the head. In fact, when I was a resident, the outgoing ME would only take 1 section of the cornary arteries on many of his cases just so he could submit some kind of tissue. And I even heard of some FPs who never took any sections (unless there was an unusual finding) and they would sign out a complete autopsy report based on history and gross examination...

i rarely submitted tissue sections in the VAST majority of accident, suicide or homicide cases. I occassionally did on natural deaths and almost universally did on cases that ended up as undetermined. Early on, i would do some for self education to see, for example, the histo changes associated with IV drug abuse.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

What do you think about his extensive comments to the media on the case & his findings, outside of a courtroom? I don't know anything about evidentiary standards but does that damage his testimony, or prejudice future jurors, or anything?

 

[deleted314957]

What do you think about his extensive comments to the media on the case & his findings, outside of a courtroom? I don't know anything about evidentiary standards but does that damage his testimony, or prejudice future jurors, or anything?

I personally think it is not appropriate, but he is a well known, long time show boater.
Never met a camera he didn't like. His statements may prejudice a potential juror but are not illegal. I think it is stupid to opine in a GSW case like this without having seen the clothes, x-rays, etc.

 

[mlw03]

I don't know Dr. Baden, nor have I ever met him at the FP meetings I've been too (I have met Dr. DiMaio though... that man is quite entertaining and opinionated, but that's another discussion). Dr. Baden can do pretty much whatever he wants because he is Dr. Baden. I can't really say anything more than that.

Much, much, much more concerning is the involvement of Mr. (note the title) Parcells, who appears to basically be a morgue tech. It is also unclear whether he or Dr. Baden actually performed the second examination of the decedent. Mr Parcells can call himself whatever he wants, but there is nothing public that indicates he is formally trained or certified by any reputable organization in the US (or any other country). I could call myself the King of The Hobbits, but that doesn't make it true (although it would be pretty sweet to sit around The Shire all day long... this is what happens when I read Tolkein).

 

[bps]

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — A Kansas City man is now front and center in the controversial shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo. Shawn Parcells owns a company that provides autopsy services, and some in the forensic community are taking issue with his involvement in this or any other case.
Parcells owns National Forensic Autopsy and Recovery Services. He says lawyers for the family of Michael Brown contacted him because of his expertise in gunshot wounds.
“I am a forensic pathologist assistant and medical investigator,” Parcells told FOX 4’s Shannon O’Brien.
However, that’s something of a dubious title according to forensic pathologist Dr. Erik Mitchell.
“That is a degree that does not exist in my knowledge, except in the mind of Shawn Parcells,” Dr. Mitchell said.
Dr. Mitchell takes issue with Parcells’ title.
“You cannot claim the title, because it is a formal, licensable position. You can assist somebody; in this way I can say, for instance, I have paid my taxes, so I am an assistant President of the United States,” Dr. Mitchell said.
Parcells admits he has no certification as a pathology assistant, but says his qualification comes from experience.
“I worked there as a forensic assistant for about a year. And if I remember correctly that was 2005 to 2006. That was under Dr. Young,” Parcells said.
That’s Dr. Thomas Young, the former Jackson County Medical Examiner.
“And that’s honestly where I gained a lot of my experience,” Parcells said.
Parcells says his training began in 1997 when he interned with Dr. Young, until he was hired in the mid-2000’s.
Dr. Young responded with this statement:
“Shawn hung out at the Jackson County Medical Examiner’s office but was not trained by me.”…. “He has been representing himself in a way that is not appropriate by giving forensic pathology opinions when he is not qualified to do so.”
“He has none of the qualifications that are required. He has experience as a morgue technician, somebody who would move bodies around, clean up after an autopsy,” Dr. Mitchell said.
Parcells says he has detractors because of a competitive system.
“A lot of this was started because I have competitors who I was taking business from. And the coroners, also, is a very political system. It’s buddy-buddy, who’s your buddy?” Parcells said.
Dr. Mitchell doesn’t agree.
“Jealousy has nothing to do with the issue with Parcells. Parcells is practicing medicine without a license,” he said.
Parcells says he and Dr. Baden are offering their services for free to the Brown family. Only their travel and related expenses are being paid for.

 

[coroner]

I could call myself the King of The Hobbits, but that doesn't make it true (although it would be pretty sweet to sit around The Shire all day long... this is what happens when I read Tolkein).

Aw, yeahhh. Sittin' around the Shire smokin' pipe weed all day long. I hear ya....

 

[dermpathdoc]

wow! i am a board certified dermatopathologist ...i did some rotations in residency in Forensics and also moonlighted doing autopsies at the local med examiner..by this guy's protocol i could pass my self off as a board certified FP specializing in the use of skin for time if
death diagnosis...as I recall that didn't even work for A Bernard Ackerman.

 

[AnotherDem]

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — A Kansas City man is now front and center in the controversial shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo. Shawn Parcells owns a company that provides autopsy services, and some in the forensic community are taking issue with his involvement in this or any other case.
Parcells owns National Forensic Autopsy and Recovery Services. He says lawyers for the family of Michael Brown contacted him because of his expertise in gunshot wounds.

That was mistake the family's lawyers made. Because only Baden's remarks are important in this case. I don't think Parcell's comments are even trusted. However Baden takes objection with the shot in the forearm being from a position of attack.

1.Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The shot to the back of Brown’s upper arm, Melinek said, suggested he could have been shot from behind."
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/forensic-expert-says-michael-brown-autopsy
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2.Dr. Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"That shot entered the hairy side of Brown's forearm through his ulna bone -- the bone that lines up with the pinky finger -- and exited through the other side", forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden told the grand jury.

Baden's findings were consistent with those from postmortem exams by the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office and the U.S. Department of Defense, which participated at the request of the St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's office.

Baden offered two theories as to where Brown was standing when the bullet struck.

"This supports being shot from behind. It didn't hit his back, but from behind," Baden said.

Or, because arms rotate on various axes, the injury also could have occurred if Brown's hands were raised in front of him, palms facing his body, he said.

"I'm saying at the time of the shooting the gun was pointed at the back of his arm, that's all," Baden said. "Where his arm was depends on what other information you have."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/10/us/ferguson-evidence-hands-up/
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I know and now you know. he was hit in the back of the arm while running away.
Naturally you know he did not have his hands in the air, palms facing backward, or in front of him facing his body. So if Baden's is afraid to say it I will say it.

H E - G O T - S H O T - I N - T H E - A R M - W H I L E - R U N N I N G - A W A Y

 

[deleted314957]

That was mistake the family's lawyers made. Because only Baden's remarks are important in this case. I don't think Parcell's comments are even trusted. However Baden takes objection with the shot in the forearm being from a position of attack.

1.Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The shot to the back of Brown’s upper arm, Melinek said, suggested he could have been shot from behind."
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/forensic-expert-says-michael-brown-autopsy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2.Dr. Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"That shot entered the hairy side of Brown's forearm through his ulna bone -- the bone that lines up with the pinky finger -- and exited through the other side", forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden told the grand jury.

Baden's findings were consistent with those from postmortem exams by the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office and the U.S. Department of Defense, which participated at the request of the St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's office.

Baden offered two theories as to where Brown was standing when the bullet struck.

"This supports being shot from behind. It didn't hit his back, but from behind," Baden said.

Or, because arms rotate on various axes, the injury also could have occurred if Brown's hands were raised in front of him, palms facing his body, he said.

"I'm saying at the time of the shooting the gun was pointed at the back of his arm, that's all," Baden said. "Where his arm was depends on what other information you have."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/10/us/ferguson-evidence-hands-up/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know and now you know. he was hit in the back of the arm while running away.
Naturally you know he did not have his hands in the air, palms facing backward, or in front of him facing his body. So if Baden's is afraid to say it I will say it.

H E - G O T - S H O T - I N - T H E - A R M - W H I L E - R U N N I N G - A W A Y

May I borrow your tin-foil hat?

 

[Thrombus]

Why anyone would want to become a policeman/woman in this environment is beyond me. Nevertheless, patrol neighborhoods that are riddled with crime. Then to see these "protestors" burning their neighbor's businesses as if this is some kind of retribution and nothing being done about it is just absolutely pathetic. Meanwhile there are thousands of homicides and tens of thousands of violent/aggravated crime being committed in the inner city and we don't hear a peep out of people like "anotherdem".

 

[AnotherDem]

What do you want to hear from me about meaningless deaths that are cause by criminals who get caught? What peep are you looking for me to talk about. You hear a peep from me, when justice is not justice, and it seems to be only for one race of people. You hear a peep out of me, when the law is not lawful. You hear a peep out of me when crime is not looked at, and somebody gets away with murder and it's the authorites that let them get away. That's when you hear a peep out of me. It's not gender specific, and the only race specified if the race that is the white race. And that's because it always seems to be that race that gets away with murder, like it doesn't apply.

 

[mlw03]

Let's not feed the troll anymore, boys and gals. No real point in continuing the discussion here. AnotherDerm can have whatever opinion s/he wants... the Grand Jury in Missouri issued their ruling

 

[schrute]

Jesus. Mods can you please rid us of this troll?