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Military Medical Students at Rocky Vista

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by narcusprince, Feb 15, 2012.

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  1. narcusprince

    narcusprince ASA donor

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    I was reading the forums and was looking at the new osteopathic medical school Rocky Vista and noticed they had a huge military medicine contingent at their program. Larger than my medical school my class size was roughly 300 medical students at a top 10 Medical school. I did some research and noticed that their school does not accept federal stafford loans (probably a huge factor in aiding military recruitment). This is all about the money, not a desire to serve. This does not make sense why the .mil would give scholarships to a school where the students cannot get stafford loans(as well as untested). Mind boggling.
  2. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    I wouldnt say its mind boggling. Schools cannot get federal funding until they are fully accredited and they cannot be fully accredited until they graduate a class. RVUs first class will graduate this year.

    Yes there is some risk in the school not getting accreditation but prob not likely. Its a med school and the .mil is getting their doctors in the end.
  3. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic

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    We will see about that.
  4. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    Their student from this year have already matched into .mil residencies, they are getting their docs.
  5. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic

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    No, they are getting their RVU grads. Whether they are getting capable, independent board-certified physicians remains to be seen.
  6. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    Ok, at this point that is true. But their students are passing boards and impressing PDs enough to land positions at programs so whatever they are doing is working. I know everyone likes to dump on the place on here but I don't see how they are going to not accredit the place now...if it wasn't going to get accreditation you think they would've stopped it before 4 classes matriculated.
  7. narcusprince

    narcusprince ASA donor

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    I will add to this. RVU only allows the top 85% of graduates to take boards in the appropriate time and the bottom 15% are told to take boards later. Versus my medical school all MS had to take boards in May/June time frame. Their is a learning process where you learn to do things efficiently and within a timeframe that even to this day is essential to being a stellar resident. In my residency we have a tradition of not taking Caribbean grads because of the way they are taught and allowed to take the boards late. These residents tend to do weaker on their boards because as stated they never get organized. I am so glad that the University of Colorado is in the proposal stages of expanding their medical school so that they can apply the University standard to all the medical students in Colorado. I hope to be involved in medical education as well as resident education.
  8. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    And I'm sure the organized students at a top 10 medical school are a different caliber student than the bottom 15% of RVU...they probably aren't applying for anesthesia at Cleveland Clinic either so don't fret.

    Yes, some things about RVU are sketchy but there are enough threads on here beating that topic to death. This was about the military giving scholarships to students there, not the downward spiral in military medicine due to the increase in mediorce DO students.getting scholarships.
  9. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic

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    He started the thread. Its about whatever he wants it to be about.
  10. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    Thanks for contributing.
  11. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic

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    OK, here's my contribution. Teaching became much less fun the last few years of my time in the .mil because of the quality issues. This isn't going to help. Now I teach average allopathic students. Its nice.
  12. dr zaius

    dr zaius MS-4

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    I had a ton of RVU students in my platoon at BOLC last summer. As far as motivation to be in the military, most seemed genuine and were pretty gung-ho about everything. None seemed motivated solely by finances to accept the HPSP.

    I can't speak to their knowledge or ability, but some of them had a chip on their shoulder due the school's reputation which made them put in more effort. Whether that results in adequate residents will be seen shortly I suppose.

    Just my anecdotal input.
  13. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? Moderator

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    The military gets a lot of HPSP'ers from DO schools in general, for two main reasons.

    1) A lot of DO schools are really really expensive.

    2) During the recent pre-bonus/Iraq-in-high-gear lean years of HPSP recruiting, the average quality of HPSP'ers definitely declined as competition for the program evaporated. The program went further down the applicant list, ending with more DOs who (on average) have lower gpas/MCAT scores.

    The truth is that most people who apply for and accept an HPSP slot really know very little about the program other than "pays for medical school and I serve for 4 years in return" ... there is very much a $ motivated calculation going on. And that's not wrong by default. Money matters and debt aversion is very rational.

    Recruiters are rarely well-informed, and their prime objective (recruit a body) is at odds with what's best for the applicant and the military. If the point of the selection process is to ensure a good match for the military, it seems like an informed applicant is desirable. Maybe I'm crazy.



    I interviewed an Navy HPSP applicant a few hours ago. By all appearances, he's a smart and capable guy with some very impressive accomplishments. My guess is he'll do great wherever he goes, with or without HPSP money.

    He didn't know what a GMO is or does, or how the GME1/GME2+ selection process works, or how HPSP/residency concurrent payback functions. Not because he's an idiot ... it's just that there's no effort to present information to the applicants, and (outside of this forum) really no place to get that information.

    I was the third person to interview him, and apparently the previous two didn't see fit to ask or talk about these issues. I don't know WTF they did ask about but it was probably useless boring "why do you want to be a doctor" crap that gets a rehearsed rote conservative answer. This really surprises me, as I think they are by FAR the top three issues that lead to hate and discontent in people who don't understand them before signing up.

    I've got another interview tomorrow with an applicant whose stellar #s and CV surely opened the door to every medical school in the country. I bet that applicant won't know anything about GMOs, or "officer vs physician" issues, or what milmed has done with the retiree caseload over the last 20 years either.


    My point is just that HPSP recruiting is (and always has been) a really poorly run system that does an especially terrible job educating applicants exactly what they're applying for. I don't think it's deliberate concealment of drawbacks to military service and the medical corps ... I think the recruiters are genuinely ignorant and think the only pertinent information concerns $ paid and years owed (which they bone up 9 times in 10 anyway). So we shouldn't be to surprised or too judgmental when we get a disproportionate number of applicants from really expensive schools.

    Because in the end, HPSP advertising isn't at all like a Marine Corps commercial offering brotherhood and honorable service. It is deliberately marketed as a "$ for med school" program, not a "sign up to serve" program. I think that's stupid and counterproductive, but nobody ever asked for my opinion. Frankly, I'm surprised they asked me to interview people in the first place.
  14. corpsman33

    corpsman33

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    Good post! I wish the HPSP/HSCP recruited more from within the ranks, but unfortunately (according to instruction) it is primarily a civilian accession program that will accept active duty military applicants on a case by case basis (per manning).

    You wouldn't believe the number of capable applicants interested in medicine (with B.S. degrees and good grades) currently serving that have absolutely no clue that these programs even exist (both officers and enlisted).

    If they advertised these programs more from within the military (especially military medicine) then they would get students who thoroughly understand the expectations and are grateful for the opportunities.
  15. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    Well Im sorry you had such a rough time trying to teach incompetent residents and I respect that you are speaking based on experience. The issue of HPSP selection standards has been hashed out here in the past.

    Yes, they do need to be more selective in giving out scholarships and Im sure if they were there would be fewer mediocre students. That being said I'm sure RVU is going to graduate their share of great physicians as will the other osteopathic schools. Change the standards but judge students by their ability and performance not because of their school.
  16. narcusprince

    narcusprince ASA donor

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    This statement of judging them based on school is ideal in a perfect world. However, this is not how your GME application works. Their are sections on the GME application that rank stength of medical school. And on the civillian side strength of medical school is a part of the application to residency. So in a perfect world yes it should not be an issue. In reality things are much different.
  17. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    I was speaking more about selection of students for the HPSP scholarship, but yes I am aware it doesnt work out that way in GME either.

    An RVU grad who got stellar boards scores (and took them on time) and impressed everyone on an audition rotation should be ranked above a mediocre student from a top 10 medical school), but I know that's not always reality.
  18. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? Moderator

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    The reason there is little or no internal recruiting is because the military generally doesn't WANT career physicians. People with prior service who go HPSP or USUHS are far more likely to stay for 20 years and get retirement benefits, which are expensive.

    The bean counters have made a simple cost analysis that tells them that civilian-recruited physicians serve just as many years in a medical capacity as internally-recruited physicians, but cost far far less over their lifetimes.
  19. blife

    blife

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    Is the amount of prior-service time a selection factor for HPSP/HSCP boards?
  20. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? Moderator

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    I'm sure it's a factor, and a positive one when it comes to the actual selection board.


    I should add that my post above re: reasons why civilian recruiting is favored is simply my opinion and understanding, some of it borne of frustrated and cynical observations of the way the Navy manages itself. It shouldn't be taken as a definitive explanation or a reflection of official Navy policy.

    I am not involved with HPSP or other recruitment efforts, except as a periodic interviewer. The two I did last week were the first I've been involved with in quite some time. I am not on the selection board and my only input for those applicants was the interview eval form.


    Part of the anti-internal-recruitment bias has a less cynical explanation - the people who are already on active duty were recruited and trained to do a job that is not medicine, and those not-medicine communities aren't going to be thrilled about losing their people to us. For example, the Naval Academy has a pretty strict and low quota on the number of their graduates who are allowed to even apply to medical school. The Academy is not there to educate pre-meds, it's not their mission.
  21. narcusprince

    narcusprince ASA donor

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    So if person A got accepted to Rocky Vista with the same board scores and grades as person B whom got accepted at an allopathic program. Person B would get selected for HPSP scholarship because the strength of school of person B would be better than A's. Not to beat a dead horse. The military would be smart to recruit person B from said allopathic school. Not getting into the MD DO debate. Thats the way the scholarship should be with the most competitive medical student at the most competitive program from the top down.
  22. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    And say person B, from run of the mill allopathic state, with the same scores as person C, at your fantastic top ten school both apply for the scholarship. The mil should always select person C ahead of B, correct?

    Well you are beating a dead horse...and you've made your views of superiority clear. So unless you and your top 10 crew start recruiting hard, it looks like your stuck with us DOs filling the ranks.
  23. Gastrapathy

    Gastrapathy no longer apathetic

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    No amount of recruiting will bring back the applicant pool of the 80s and 90s. A decade of war, AHLTA, Tricare, truth in advertising (SDN), and a host of other issues have left us here. I'm sorry you're offended but the stats don't lie. Watch the board pass rates of the last couple of years/next few years for the noncompetitive specialties. Our current applicant quality is a huge problem. The mean GPA and MCAT for HPSP acceptees from 2008 are not competitive numbers for an average allopathic school.

    The problem with all of these A versus B discussions is that person A hasn't joined the .mil in years.

    Add to that the fact that you can't fail everyone (or really almost anyone), and you are left with a system with doctors that I wouldn't want taking care of me or my family.
  24. narcusprince

    narcusprince ASA donor

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    I want to make this clear this is not a DO vs MD argument. I have served with and recruited stellar DO's for my residency program. This is an argument that the .mil is disproportionally taking students from RVU the only for profit, stafford loan less, school in the country. I wonder if RVU sends out acceptances earlier than most MD or DO programs in order to secure scholarships earlier?
  25. corpsman33

    corpsman33

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    Wow....I hope this is not the case. I already have my selection letter in hand....:D, but nevertheless I can easily see the diference between prior enlisted medical corps, and those fresh from college.

    The prior military experience helps develop motivated, squared away, officers who exude a level of military bearing not often seen in other individuals (or at least this has been my experience). People will follow men like this, and medicine aside, medical corps officers will eventually become department heads, who become directors, who later become Generals/Admirals leading commands. In my opinion the prior experience is well worth the money, but what do I know.....I am just a lowly E-5......:rolleyes:.
  26. haujun

    haujun

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    I understand your points. However, If you look at previous Surgeon Generals or other MC Generals I don't see that they had significant prior service (enlisted or officer service) before doing HPSP.

    I spent several years enlisted time before doing HPSP and I don't find myself better adapted or performing better than my colleagues who are not prior service. I feel just as frustrated in military medicine...:D
  27. teacherman84

    teacherman84

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    Im not offended by what your saying and I agree that the standards are too low...I have seen first hand some people who should not have received the scholarship. I also recognize that the majority of these students are probably at DO schools. Im not denying that. I am bothered by lumping all students together as incompetent based on their degree or the school.

    Well that's the way your last post came off. Here are some numbers of military matched students...this may not include those that were civilian deferred but its probably a good representation:
    ATSU-SOMA 6 5.7%
    DMUCOM 16 6.8%
    GA-PCOM 8 9.0%
    KCOM 12 7.1%
    KCUMBCOM 15 5.4%
    LECOM 10 3.5%
    LECOM-BRAD 12 7.5%
    LMU-DCOM 13 8.5%
    MSUCOM 6 2.6%
    MWU-AZCOM 13 5.3%
    MWU-CCOM 9 4.9%
    NSUCOM 18 6.8%
    NYCOM 12 3.7%
    OSUCOM 3 3.1%
    OUCOM 13 10.6%
    PCOM 10 3.4%
    PNWUCOM 7 9.9%
    RVUCOM 17 13.2%
    TOUROCOM 5 3.6%
    TUCOM-CA 6 3.9%
    TUNCOM 14 8.6%
    UMDNJSOM 3 2.5%
    UNECOM 12 8.9%
    UNTHSCTCOM 10 5.7%
    UP-KYCOM 1 1.4%
    VCOM 17 8.4%
    WESTUCOMP 6 2.6%
    WVSOM 15 8.0%
    TOTALS: 289 5.8%

    The military is taking willing students, regardless of where they come from. Again, I agree they should raise the standards but it doesn't do any good to bash individual schools. If that's your goal go join in on the premed forums.
  28. blife

    blife

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    pgg, thanks for your response. I have a pretty good chunk of prior time so I was a little worried about how the selection board might view this.

    As for prior time making a more 'squared away' .mil physician, eh, maybe. The biggest prior service slacker (squared away-wise) I know will be a future .mil doctor, so I think it's all dependent on the individual.
  29. a1qwerty55

    a1qwerty55 Attending

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    I'm sorry, on average these new HPSP students (usually DO grads) are really really dumb. In many instances they are not trainable. Trust me I teach them, foreign grads and MD school medical students and residents daily. I honestly and floored by the lack of basic intellect and astoundingly poor judgment these individuals show. It is depressing and a reason why I have stopped recommending the military as a medical career. Bash me all you want for pointing out the obvious but it is my license, and reputation they practice on. This has led to a dramatic increase in my stress and job dissatisfaction. Honestly, the DO horde is a plaque on the military medical community. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor SHOULD be a doctor. We don't need more DO schools. We need a medical climate which makes being a doctor more desirable and thus encourages the best and brightest to apply to medical school. Off soapbox.
  30. AhoyMateys

    AhoyMateys

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    I'm a 3rd year Navy HPSP student attending a DO school. I had a 30+ MCAT, a 240 on the USMLE step 1, and a 600+ COMLEX level 1.

    A "plaque on the military medical community"? Seriously? Is this how my attendings are going to percieve me when I'm doing my 4th year clerkships and applying for internship?
  31. Roberie

    Roberie

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    As a second year DO student, I tend to agree that the low end of the curve perhaps shouldn't be doctors, though myself and my two other army HPSP colleagues are near the top of our class. The fact that we're DO students doesn't outright make us "really really dumb."

    I think of the MD/DO populations as two distinct normal distributions that are super-imposed on one another. On the tail ends you have two groups that are clearly not the same, though in the middle you've got a significant chunk that are qualitatively similar.

    I realize this doesn't necessarily seem to be the point of the thread, but I figured I'd add my two cents.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  32. haujun

    haujun

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    "Not trainable" is a harsh word. His view is personal and I disagree.

    As one of military attending I expect medical students to work hard and feel compassion toward their patients. If you care about patients I hope medical students will work hard to acquire necessary knowledge to practice evidence based medicine. You are medical students, you are there to learn and make mistakes. You will make much more mistakes when you become interns and residents as you take on more responsibilities. During your training period (medical students, intern, resident, fellowship) you are learning to become a doctor.

    Personally, I feel that those doctors who are lazy, lie and don't care about their patients should not become doctors.
  33. a1qwerty55

    a1qwerty55 Attending

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    Ok you are they guy with two legs running in the paralympics - top of the class means what when you are riding the short bus?

    If anyone took the time to read my post - in detail - they would realize I used the terms on average and most (not all). I have plenty of posts on this site which describe positive interactions and respect I have for DO colleagues. There is no denying that the caliber of HPSP matriculants is much worse than it was 10-20 years ago, that is MD and DO HPSP students. The DO schools do take people who intellectually (sorry but true), are not as strong ON AVERAGE as someone who goes to the average MD school. Case in point, today which is my daily experience - my MD med student can answer like 80% more clinical questions that my dense... but pleasant... DO resident who thinks he is going to train in my specialty. You could superimpose the bell curves but you'd have to artificially shift the DO one to the right to overlap the MD programs. While DO's can't seem to look in the mirror and accept this - this is reality... I'm sorry if you were so **** hot - why didn't you go to Hopkins, or UVa, or St. Louis U, or UC whatever? I had no clue DO schools existed when I applied to medical school because my health professions advisor didn't even feel they were worth mentioning. I am NOT a DO hater - I am however a hater of PC baloney -
  34. a1qwerty55

    a1qwerty55 Attending

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    OK- I think we all agree that lazy, lying doctors are bad - how about doctors who aren't smart enough to be doctors?

    While desire and work is great, you actually have to have the tools (IQ and clinical acumen) to be a safe physician. Untrainable means that SOME (not all) people graduating from random letter generatorCOM and the bottom tier of MD schools seem to not have developed enough sulci and gyri to get from one end of the room to the other yet they feel that ala "Rudy" if they just try hard enough they can pull it off........ not with my patients or my family thank you.

    If you are a DO - great! - now f'ing crush the USMLE boards not the COMLEX - be diligent and knowledgeable and you will do great. If on every rotation they keep telling you that you are nice.. hard working.. but your fund of knowledge is well below your peers - this means you are dense as a stone since docs rarely give honest negative feedback.
  35. a1qwerty55

    a1qwerty55 Attending

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    You will be judged based on performance by most of us - I have listed DO students at the top of my OML for residency. You however are not the typical DO student based on your numbers.
  36. haujun

    haujun

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    While I don't think every doctors possesses ability to develop required technical skills/clinical acumen during training period to become "safe" neurosurgeon and there are many specialties in the field of medicine that an "average" IQ physician can choose from. What is your minimum IQ score to become a safe physician?
  37. haujun

    haujun

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    I am curious what do you tell those (ignorant people btw) who asked if you are such a great doctor why are you **** still in the military?
  38. haujun

    haujun

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    You sounded a lot like...I am not racist I have a lot of black friends.:rolleyes:
  39. a1qwerty55

    a1qwerty55 Attending

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    Every heard of indentured servitude?
  40. a1qwerty55

    a1qwerty55 Attending

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    An interesting question. I think we all get that being a doctor is not all about IQ, and test scores, but is also isn't all about hard work and desire. I run into docs who can't seem to master some basic concepts (not technical skills) even when drilled into their head daily. This is what scares me.
  41. acesup123

    acesup123

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    .
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  42. AhoyMateys

    AhoyMateys

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    Posts like this are the opposite of helpful. I was trying to make a point that DOs are not necessarily "really really dumb". You're not helping my case.
  43. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? Moderator

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    You don't actually think "courage" accounts for the recruiting patterns of HPSP and the military in general, do you?


    It's interesting that you bring that up. We don't carry rifles and kick in doors.

    There's plenty of disagreement on this forum, but one thing that almost 99% of us strongly agree about is that the military has enough officers, and they need us to be doctors more than officers. It's not adventure summer camp.

    And if you ask the average Lance Corporal who's sick or wounded, if he'd rather have the doctor with the better scores over the ballsy guy with the drop holster he got off ebay.
  44. brucecanbeatyou

    brucecanbeatyou Junior Park Ranger

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    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    This thread is making me feel like my decision to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX is justified, despite everyone's advice that USMLE doesn't matter in milmed.
  45. dr zaius

    dr zaius MS-4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
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    1,170
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    Medical Student
    Army SDN 5+ Year Member
    Yea, man! **** smart doctors in the military! They better have big ****ing balls so they can get the hooah stuff done, you tracking?! **** yea, you're tracking. You know what's up.
  46. Roberie

    Roberie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
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    Medical Student
    Army SDN 5+ Year Member
    Despite the way this thread is going, I had to laugh when I read this.
  47. corpsman33

    corpsman33

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
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    Tazewell, TN
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    I think this thread has become a disgrace.
  48. dr zaius

    dr zaius MS-4

    Joined:
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    It took a bit longer to circle the drain than I thought it would.
  49. acesup123

    acesup123

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
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    blah blah, I was being sarcastic this whole thread has been a disgrace since aqwerty or whatever the hell his name is started bashing DOs.
  50. haujun

    haujun

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Messages:
    448
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    Attending Physician
    SDN 10+ Year Member
    I am actually more scare about doctors who think they know everything and place their interest before their patients. I also feel that if doctors do not achieve certain minimum standard (both technical and non-technical skills) at end of PGY I, II etc..I agreed that they should not progress and complete their residency. Some doctors may require some more remedial training, but it is more desirable to find them and help them during training period than later.

    I believe that this requires some intelligence, but we are NOT talking about Biochemistry or Quantum physics level of thinking here. I would like to encourage medical students and residents not to be scare to make mistakes and learn from them as much as possible during your training.

    Having finished residency while back...I think that two most significant traits that doctors should have are compassion and diligence. That is my personal view...

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