Military residency lifestyle

[Aloft085]

Good evening everyone,

My question is in regards to the work hours and lifestyle of military residency as compared to civilian residency. I'm a veteran in my early 30's, and I will hopefully be starting medical school next year. I'm giving HPSP strong consideration. Reading the allopathic forums, one of my greatest concerns is potentially having to work 80 hour weeks for five years or more if I pursue a surgical residency. This could be an issue, since I'll be in my mid-to-late 30's by then and looking to start a family. Having served in the Air Force previously, I know that they generally take care of their people, and tend to not abuse them for long periods of time. I feel that the quality of life during an Air Force surgical residency may be significantly better than a civilian residency. Thoughts?

Of course I can simply decide to not do surgery and perhaps have an easier time in the civilian world also, but I just want to collect all possible data before I make a decision. What are your thoughts regarding the work hours of demanding residencies like surgery in the military? How do you feel about the quality of life? I wouldn't mind doing a few years in the military again if it meant that my five years of residency wasn't a miserable experience.

Thank you all for your time and consideration.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Perrotfish]

Good evening everyone,

My question is in regards to the work hours and lifestyle of military residency as compared to civilian residency. I'm a veteran in my early 30's, and I will hopefully be starting medical school next year. I'm giving HPSP strong consideration. Reading the allopathic forums, one of my greatest concerns is potentially having to work 80 hour weeks for five years or more if I pursue a surgical residency. This could be an issue, since I'll be in my mid-to-late 30's by then and looking to start a family. Having served in the Air Force previously, I know that they generally take care of their people, and tend to not abuse them for long periods of time. I feel that the quality of life during an Air Force surgical residency may be significantly better than a civilian residency. Thoughts?

Of course I can simply decide to not do surgery and perhaps have an easier time in the civilian world also, but I just want to collect all possible data before I make a decision. What are your thoughts regarding the work hours of demanding residencies like surgery in the military? How do you feel about the quality of life? I wouldn't mind doing a few years in the military again if it meant that my five years of residency wasn't a miserable experience.

Thank you all for your time and consideration.

1) In most surgical specialties, the work hour limit is actually 88 hours a week, not 80.

2) Abuse is a relative term. Most residents would say that a residency isn't abusive if it doesn't break the work hour rules. In any residency, civilian or military, you should expect to work 80 (88 if surgical) hours a week in the hospital, get one day off a week, get 2-4 weeks of vacation a year, and get 0-1 holidays in addition to that vacation. My friends who are trapped in malignant residencies are working much more than that.

3) My personal experience, in a Navy non-surgical residency, has been that the military has been very good about following the work hour rules. However I wouldn't expect any surgical residency, in or outside of the military, to work less than an average of 80 hours a week with at least 5 hours a week studying outside the hospital.

 

[pgg]

There are many, many more civilian residency positions in any given field than military residency positions.

Your perspective on work hours will probably change, but on the off chance you remain committed to finding a lifestyle surgical residency program, you're more likely to find such a beast on the outside.

IMO the perceived friendliness and ease of future residency choices shouldn't be a factor in your HPSP decision.

 

[HighPriest]

I completed a subspecialty surgical residency as a non-traditional resident. I can tell you that I often worked more than 80 hours/week, but that was still less than most of the non-military residents with whom I rotated. Call was far, far lighter in the Army. A lot of people started or grew their families during Army surgical residencies - in both subspecialty and general surgery. I can't speak for AF, but compared with most of the civilian residents I knew in my field I think we had an easier time with family life in the Army (at least, during residency). That could be due to hours, the overall mentality of our staff, the free healthcare, the pay, or a combination of those things.
That being said, the civilian pool is deeper, and so as mentioned above you may have an easier time finding a less intense residency outside the military. Whether or not you actually learn anything during that residency is something else entirely.

I also agree that while friendliness might come into play somehow, it probably shouldn't be a predominant factor in your choice to join the military. Especially considering the long-term implications for your family, which in my opinion have the potential to counterbalance anything you experience in residency.

 

[HighPriest]

As another point, and this is again just anecdotal:

One of the things about military surgical residencies that tends to lend itself to easier family life is the size of the attending staff. Everyone knows you, and they all know your situation, pretty much from day 1. As long as you prove that you are interested in working and that you're not there to slack off, they'll work with you for family-related issues (at least in my program). On the civilian side, you may have so many staff docs that you're meeting new people 2-3 years into your residency. They don't know you, nor do they know your work ethic, and so they are likely to question what appears to be an abscence or lack of work ethic.

A final note, because I just posted about this on another forum: our gen surg residency was fairly anti-family (from my perspective, based upon the way that some of their residents, my friends, were treated). That being said, they were still able to have kids and on an arbitrary scale of family-friendliness I think they were still somewhat better off than a lot of the civilians I knew had it.

 

[j4pac]

The 80 hour work-week is a bit of a joke...because it has to be averaged out over the month. So you could work 100 hours...then the next work 60...then 120...then 40...and it all averages 80 hours per month. PGY-1 has become a bit easier because they have limited the number of consecutive hours spend while in the hospital to 14. I had no problem working 80 hours a week using our night float system. Big deal...you're in the hospital 14 hours a day for 6 days a week...you still sleep at night.

I think that when you are looking at hours...I would focus on the numbers that are important for your health and the safety of patients...call schedules. I honestly think that a q3day schedule is dangerous for all parties. I did it a month during my internship and by the end of the month I was nearly delirious. If you do work long call shifts (more than 18 hours straight) you really want to ensure that you are actually able to sleep during your call shift. I was not able to do so...it was too busy...so it was an absolute beat down. It was even worse for my surgery colleagues.

Call is fine if you are able to get a little bit of sleep. The only way to find out this information is ASKING CURRENT RESIDENTS.

 

[colbgw02]

I would say that the military's tendency torward obeying rules means they follow the ACGME more closely, on average, than a civilian program of the same specialty. I'd also say that the ridiculous number of non-medical requirements heaped on everyone, including residents, means everyone becomes conditioned to having a resident disappear for an hour or two. If you're gone for a morning PFT and don't roll in until 9 am, there isn't really anyone tracking you to figure out that you could have been at work 45 minutes earlier.

 

[DoctaJMa]

I agree with alot of the above. I did a TY last year and the Surgery Interns at my MEDCEN were working 100+ hours a week. When I was on a surgery out rotation I worked 365 hours that month. I hear from my civilian counterparts all over the country and it is about the same everywhere...some better, some worse. Also remember the Air Force and Navy have considerably less residency spots and tend to send many of their residents out to the civilian world to train (ive seen numbers like 30-40 residents sent out for civilian residencies). As for the Army, they send about 2-7 people out each year, the rest of us have stay in the military system to train. Just what ive seen personally.