Minorities apply to twice as many residency programs

[jakeislove]

I'm just waiting, absolutely waiting for a "black people can't be racist" retort

I've always found that retort stupid and insulting.

FWIW, The guy who popularized the opinion is/was probably sincere but the statement is never, ever..... ever used or discussed in it's original context. It's more or less something that started out stupid and got stupider over time. In a nutshell: He didn't deny that blacks could be racist. His argument was that they couldn't actively practice racism due to lacking the power to impose it upon others. I disagree with the opinion but do see how it (in the original context, as explained in his book) would appeal to frustrated minorities.

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[Ashley_Green1988]

this literally happens to everyone. that's what you don't get. there will be white kids, where black superiors treat them worse because they're white kids. there will be black kids, with white superiors who treat them worse because they're black kids. there will be indian kids who get treated worse by people of pakistan descent. likewise, there will be indians who treat students of pakistan descent worse. stop complaining. I promise you, whatever race you are, all else being equal, you don't look at two people where the only difference between them is race and respond equally to them. doing so wouldn't be the normal biological response. or do you think animals just associate with their own species for the fun of it?

This would be a good point if there were an equal number of each race in supervisory positions / heading institutions / writing policy to cancel out discrimination towards any particular race like we were solving an algebra equation. Only there isn't. The fact is that sure, whilst there will sometimes be black superiors who treat white kids worse because they are white - blacks are largely not the ones in these supervisory positions. Far more often it is black kids who are treated worse by both white people in supervisory positions and institutions largely run by whites. So your implication that discrimination towards people based on race is somehow balanced or cancelled out because everybody is doing it, black or white, is a bit disingenuous. Everybody is doing it, sure, but black kids tend to fall on the wrong side of it more than whites.

I agree that it is natural to treat people not in your own group worse than those within your group - and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground.

Having said that I'm not particularly in favour of affirmative action policies (and that's for both poor black kids and rich white kids, the whole legacy thing for college admission in the states horrifies me).

 

[Dave89]

Far more often it is black kids who are treated worse by both white people in supervisory positions and institutions largely run by whites... Everybody is doing it, sure, but black kids tend to fall on the wrong side of it more than whites.

Lie.

Non-Whites (across the board) are fawned upon by administrations all the way from elementary school and upward.

I agree that it is natural to treat people not in your own group worse than those within your group - and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground.

Like separate but equal? I agree.

 

[Dave89]

I agree that it is natural to treat people not in your own group worse than those within your group

I want to point out that I couldn't agree more with this.

This is why "diversity" (as the term is used by anti-Whites) is a weakness and a source of discord; not a strength.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

This would be a good point if there were an equal number of each race in supervisory positions / heading institutions / writing policy to cancel out discrimination towards any particular race like we were solving an algebra equation. Only there isn't. The fact is that sure, whilst there will sometimes be black superiors who treat white kids worse because they are white - blacks are largely not the ones in these supervisory positions. Far more often it is black kids who are treated worse by both white people in supervisory positions and institutions largely run by whites. So your implication that discrimination towards people based on race is somehow balanced or cancelled out because everybody is doing it, black or white, is a bit disingenuous. Everybody is doing it, sure, but black kids tend to fall on the wrong side of it more than whites.

No, it's still a good point because no where was he arguing that there was numerically equal discrimination, only that there was racially equal discrimination. In other words, most groups discriminate against outsiders. Which you agree with here:

I agree that it is natural to treat people not in your own group worse than those within your group

and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground.

Wouldn't this then just lead to minorities being placed in positions of power to discriminate against the majority or other minorites that are a different race then them? How do you cure discrimination with more discrimination?

Having said that I'm not particularly in favour of affirmative action policies (and that's for both poor black kids and rich white kids, the whole legacy thing for college admission in the states horrifies me).

If that is what horrifies you in this world you should get out more.

 

[jakeislove]

Lie.

Non-Whites (across the board) are fawned upon by administrations all the way from elementary school and upward.



Like separate but equal? I agree.

A lot of hospitals have drug testing policies.

Just sayin'.

 

[PL198]

how is a drug testing policy related to favoring any race?

 

[RJGOP]

This would be a good point if there were an equal number of each race in supervisory positions / heading institutions / writing policy to cancel out discrimination towards any particular race like we were solving an algebra equation. Only there isn't. The fact is that sure, whilst there will sometimes be black superiors who treat white kids worse because they are white - blacks are largely not the ones in these supervisory positions. Far more often it is black kids who are treated worse by both white people in supervisory positions and institutions largely run by whites. So your implication that discrimination towards people based on race is somehow balanced or cancelled out because everybody is doing it, black or white, is a bit disingenuous. Everybody is doing it, sure, but black kids tend to fall on the wrong side of it more than whites.

I agree that it is natural to treat people not in your own group worse than those within your group - and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground.

Having said that I'm not particularly in favour of affirmative action policies (and that's for both poor black kids and rich white kids, the whole legacy thing for college admission in the states horrifies me).

You're right that there are more whites in higher administration positions. However, that is no longer relevant, especially in academic institutions considering they're all run by egg-heads who don't care about fairness. All they care about is being politically correct, which always entails discriminating against whites and blatantly favoring minorities. So, it's irrelevant whether or not whites are the majority in higher positions, because no matter who is in charge, whites (especially white males) are getting the shorter end of the stick, if they get any of the stick at all.

 

[RJGOP]

A lot of hospitals have drug testing policies.

Just sayin'.

That's for the safety of patients. I don't understand how that has anything to do with racial favoritism.

 

[jakeislove]

That's for the safety of patients. I don't understand how that has anything to do with racial favoritism.

Only someone on drugs would have made his post.

FWIW, I have had patients request black doctors/nurses. When it happens I think about the Family Guy episode when Stewie got sick, LOL!

 

[RJGOP]

Only someone on drugs would have made his post.

FWIW, I have had patients request black doctors/nurses. When it happens I think about the Family Guy episode when Stewie got sick, LOL!

No need to be petulant. (What he said was 100% true)

 

[jakeislove]

No need to be petulant. (What he said was 100% true)

There's no need to respect a foolish statement.

If you know some black people who were fawned over throughout life and never dealt with racism... please introduce me to them. Their perspective would be interesting.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

If racism = stereotyping (weak ass racism btw), find anyone who hasn't dealt with racism.

I prefer a hearty zealous racism, at least we can all identify that and the people who practice it are aware of it.

 

[jakeislove]

If racism = stereotyping (weak ass racism btw), find anyone who hasn't dealt with racism.

I prefer a hearty zealous racism, at least we can all identify that and the people who practice it are aware of it.

I'm fine with people who are honest about it and don't say stuff like "Some of my best friends are black".

 

[RJGOP]

There's no need to respect a foolish statement.

If you know some black people who were fawned over throughout life and never dealt with racism... please introduce me to them. Their perspective would be interesting.

That's a ridiculous thing to say. (I'm not trying to be mean) No one is going to admit being fawned over, and I wouldn't direclty bring the issue up with a black person for the hell of it. But the fact remains, they are favorited and given an easier path in many academic institutions, whether that's grade school, college, graduate school or anything else.

Regarding racism, I think it's fair to say everyone has experienced some form of rascism. Thus, it's irellevant. Yes, some people experience more racism than others but it's not based off race, necessarily. There are some black people who have been been subjected to more racism than some white people, and vice versa. It just depends on where you live and with whom you associate.

 

[jakeislove]

That's a ridiculous thing to say. (I'm not trying to be mean) No one is going to admit being fawned over, and I wouldn't direclty bring the issue up with a black person for the hell of it. But the fact remains, they are favorited and given an easier path in many academic institutions, whether that's grade school, college, graduate school or anything else.

Regarding racism, I think it's fair to say everyone has experienced some form of rascism. Thus, it's irellevant. Yes, some people experience more racism than others but it's not based off race, necessarily. There are some black people who have been been subjected to more racism than some white people, and vice versa. It just depends on where you live and with whom you associate.

Just ask black people. It's not like they bite.

 

[RJGOP]

Just ask black people. It's not like they bite.

Well thanks for enlightening me. I guess I have nothing to be afraid of after all.

 

[jakeislove]

Well thanks for enlightening me. I guess I have nothing to be afraid of after all.

We're here to teach each other.

 

[RJGOP]

We're here to teach each other.

Do you think if I asked a black person if they have been favored and granted an easier path through schooling as a result of their race they would say yes?

The point is there's nothing to gain in asking a black person such a question. It's a conflict of interest for them and they wouldn't be expected to answer the question, not by me or anyone else. However, that doesn't nullify the fact that they are often favored.

 

[jakeislove]

Do you think if I asked a black person if they have been favored and granted an easier path through schooling as a result of their race they would say yes?

The point is there's nothing to gain in asking a black person such a question. It's a conflict of interest for them and they wouldn't be expected to answer the question, not by me or anyone else. However, that doesn't nullify the fact that they are often favored.

You claimed it was 100% true. Why would a reasonable person be offended by the truth?

No harm in asking someone if they've enjoyed Black privilege. Who knows?! They may feel some Black Guilt and give you shiny stuff.

 

[RJGOP]

You claimed it was 100% true. Why would a reasonable person be offended by the truth?

So if I told an obese person that they are grossly fat, or a quadriplegic that they can't jump as high as me, that wouldn't be offensive just because it's true?

 

[jakeislove]

So if I told an obese person that they are grossly fat, or a quadriplegic that they can't jump as high as me, that wouldn't be offensive just because it's true?

Those would be cases of pointing out a disability. You claim being black is an advantage so there's no reason to take offense.

I'll ask a few people tomorrow and report back.

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

Those would be cases of pointing out a disability. You claim being black is an advantage so there's no reason to take offense.

I'll ask a few people tomorrow and report back.

Obesity is a disability? Huh? Please, stop trooooollllinnngggggg zZZzZz

 

[jakeislove]

Obesity is a disability? Huh? Please, stop trooooollllinnngggggg zZZzZz

Self-inflicted (in most cases) but that doesn't negate their challenges.

 

[RJGOP]

Those would be cases of pointing out a disability. You claim being black is an advantage so there's no reason to take offense

Yes it is an advantage. However I think people would take offense to being asked if their race benefited them in admissions process or anything else. That would imply that perhaps they didn't earn what they have or had.

I'll ask a few people tomorrow and report back.

Fair enough.

 

[RJGOP]

Self-inflicted (in most cases) but that doesn't negate their challenges.

We all have challenges. Their challenge is gluttony. It's not a disability though, just lack of self-control.

 

[jakeislove]

Yes it is an advantage. However I think people would take offense to being asked if their race benefited them in admissions process or anything else. That would imply that perhaps they didn't earn what they have or had.


Fair enough.

It's assumed so often that the truth is irrelevant.

 

[RJGOP]

It's assumed so often that the truth is irrelevant.

I don't think many people assume that. Most people don't know the truth either. The truth is relevant, but no one admits it.

 

[jakeislove]

I don't think many people assume that. Most people don't know the truth either. The truth is relevant, but no one admits it.

Still feel they're giving the short end of the stick (or less) to white males, eh?

 

[RJGOP]

Still feel they're giving the short end of the stick (or less) to white males, eh?

Affirmative.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

]So, it's irrelevant whether or not whites are the majority in higher positions, because no matter who is in charge, whites (especially white males) are getting the shorter end of the stick, if they get any of the stick at all.

I was wondering when the white male persecution complex was going to rear its head in this debate ...

 

[RJGOP]

I was wondering when the white male persecution complex was going to rear its head in this debate ...

I have to balance out the "blacks are the victims" posse.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

I have to balance out the "blacks are the victims" posse.

With deluded nonsense about white males usually getting the short end of the stick? If this is true (it isn't), white males must truly be magical creatures given that, in the face of all this discrimination and hardship, they still manage to dominate the top of almost every single profession and still earn more than any other group.

 

[RJGOP]

With deluded nonsense about white males usually getting the short end of the stick? If this is true (it isn't), white males must truly be magical creatures given that, in the face of all this discrimination and hardship, they still manage to dominate the top of almost every single profession and still earn more than any other group.

Yes and what would you say the age range of the white males dominating every proffesion is? Probably 30 years old and up. (Rough estimate) Previously it was more balanced, and before that, white males had an advantage, which is wrong, as everyone deserves an even shot. What I'm eluding to is that this recent phenomenon of favoratism of minorities has occurred in the last 15 years or so. That's why white males are still domitating businesses and higher positions.

That said, how come blacks dominate American sports? According to you, blacks must be these magical creatures who still manage to dominate proffesional sports in the face of adversity.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

No, it's still a good point because no where was he arguing that there was numerically equal discrimination, only that there was racially equal discrimination. In other words, most groups discriminate against outsiders. Which you agree with here:

Actually he did imply that it happens to everyone at a more or less equal frequency.

Wouldn't this then just lead to minorities being placed in positions of power to discriminate against the majority or other minorites that are a different race then them? How do you cure discrimination with more discrimination?

I never said we should do that, and I even stated that I don't believe in affirmative action to correct such things. Nice attempt to straw man me though.

If that is what horrifies you in this world you should get out more.

Oh right, because we should only be horrified by things like terrorist attacks and its ilk? I actually do find it horrifying that a system exists in American Universities that enables the children of alumni (who are not just white obviously, although legacy policies generally favour them the most) i.e kids who generally already have an advantage in terms of wealth and better education to have an easier ride into college. Why on earth should the fact that somebody's dad went to an Ivy League mean that they should receive preferential treatment? This says 0 about their suitability for the program or their intellect. It's irrational, it's nepotistic and frankly, it's very corrupt.

Entrance to university should be based on one thing - merit. Anything else compromises the academic integrity of the institution.

(and no I'm not a proponent of any kind of affirmative action, just to reiterate).

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

Yes and what would you say the age range of the white males dominating every proffesion is? Probably 30 years old and up. Previously it was more balanced, and before that, white males had an advantage, which is wrong, as everyone deserves an even shot. What I'm eluding to is that this recent phenomenon of favoratism of minorities has occurred in the last 15 years or so. That's why white males are still domitating businesses and higher positions.

That said, how come blacks dominate American sports?

The fact that they are 30 years or up is kind of inconclusive - I mean 20 somethings generally just don't dominate professions as a *general rule .... (*with the exception of some IT companies). I guess we'll have to wait and see what the landscape looks like in a decade or two to see how this white male discrimination has manifested.

My guess is that you'll all be just fine.

p.s check this article out. Seems like cursory discrimination of blacks in employment screening is still alive and well in our modern era -->

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

p.p.s I cannot comment on the sport thing (I am beyond ignorant on the topic) -> although from my observations it doesn't appear to be the case for all sports - cricket, rugby union for example are not dominated by black players (I'm from Australia / UK so these are the sports I know). My boyfriend is American though and I know from him that it's the case for American Football and Basketball so I do acknowledge that. I know nothing about sport though, and so cannot even begin to hypothesise on this.

 

[RJGOP]

The fact that they are 30 years or up is kind of inconclusive - I mean 20 somethings generally just don't dominate professions as a *general rule .... (*with the exception of some IT companies). I guess we'll have to wait and see what the landscape looks like in a decade or two to see how this white male discrimination has manifested.

My guess is that you'll all be just fine.

p.s check this article out. Seems like cursory discrimination of blacks in employment screening is still alive and well in our modern era -->

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

30 years old was just a rough estimate. I was just using it to substantiate my point which was that this phenomenon of minority favoratism has only sprouted within the last decade or two. Thus, whites are still dominating administrative positions. However, if you're going to argue that whites are magical creatures who are impervious to discrimination if my assumptions are correct, than I can argue the same about blacks dominating sports if your assumptions are correct.

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

With deluded nonsense about white males usually getting the short end of the stick? If this is true (it isn't), white males must truly be magical creatures given that, in the face of all this discrimination and hardship, they still manage to dominate the top of almost every single profession and still earn more than any other group.

This. Allllll of this. The bubble is so REAL. It's like they can't see anything outside of their own lives.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Actually he did imply that it happens to everyone at a more or less equal frequency.

Where in what you quoted from him says anything about equal frequency? Please quote the line/s.

I never said we should do that, and I even stated that I don't believe in affirmative action to correct such things. Nice attempt to straw man me though.

That wasn't a strawman, I quoted you saying "and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground." and then pointed out an obvious consequence of it in the context of hiring policies etc. However, if I misunderstood what you were implying, I apologize.

Oh right, because we should only be horrified by things like terrorist attacks and its ilk? I actually do find it horrifying that a system exists in American Universities that enables the children of alumni (who are not just white obviously, although legacy policies generally favour them the most) i.e kids who generally already have an advantage in terms of wealth and better education to have an easier ride into college. Why on earth should the fact that somebody's dad went to an Ivy League mean that they should receive preferential treatment? This says 0 about their suitability for the program or their intellect. It's irrational, it's nepotistic and frankly, it's very corrupt.

Some of those alums are multimillion dollar donors that are providing a higher quality education through the building of study centers, free tutors, new buildings, upgraded facilities etc. for some of the people who are getting preferential treatment for other reasons having nothing to do with merit or legacy.

Entrance to university should be based on one thing - merit. Anything else compromises the academic integrity of the institution.

So you disagree with any and all preferential treatment to all people regardless of class, color, sex, creed, etc?

(and no I'm not a proponent of any kind of affirmative action, just to reiterate).

Then what do you mean by this?

and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground.

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

30 years old was just a rough estimate. I was just using it to substantiate my point which was that this phenomenon of minority favoratism has only sprouted within the last decade or two. Thus, whites are still dominating administrative positions. However, if you're going to argue that whites are magical creatures who are impervious to discrimination if my assumptions are correct, than I can argue the same about blacks dominating sports if your assumptions are correct.

Yeah that's why I said we need to wait and see what happens in the next decade or two. I obviously don't accept your premise that minorities are favoured in any *meaningful* way. I think a lot of lip service is paid to it and it's a popular thing to legislate - but whether that actually translates to real favouritism and measurable advantage - that I'm a little more doubtful about. But yeah, time will tell I guess.

I am curious about what you think of this study that I posted before (I posted it as an edit so you may have missed it):

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

^^^ seems to show that there is still quite a lot of discrimination at the hiring level / screening level with employment

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

in the face of all this discrimination and hardship, they still manage to dominate the top of almost every single profession and still earn more than any other group.

What if this was based on merit? What would you say about it then?

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

Where in what you quoted from him says anything about equal frequency? Please quote the line/s.

I said 'implied'. It's my opinion that the whole message of his post was that everybody has to deal with racial discrimination more or less equally. We may have differing interpretations and I may have misinterpreted him but that was my impression. Maybe he can weigh in on what he meant?

That wasn't a strawman, I quoted you saying "and that is exactly why we need policies in place to level the playing ground." and then pointed out an obvious consequence of it in the context of hiring policies etc. However, if I misunderstood what you were implying, I apologize.

No problem, I was a bit ambiguous. I don't agree with any affirmative action policies - they lower standards and create more problems. By level the playing ground I meant things like improving education for disadvantaged black kids, access to more support during primary and high school years. More scholarships etc. Basically give them the extra support that they need to make the grade - but the grade they have to make is still the same as everybody else - and if they stlll don't make it, well, that's their problem (sorry to sound harsh but you can't compromise standards).

Some of those alums are multimillion dollar donors that are providing a higher quality education through the building of study centers, free tutors, new buildings, upgraded facilities etc. for some of the people who are getting preferential treatment for other reasons having nothing to do with merit or legacy.

Studies show that removal of legacy policies does not affect donations. I can link you the studies if you like - I looked into this recently.

At the end of the day admitting kids who had every advantage in life but still couldn't make the grade into college compromises standards and also compromises the integrity of an institution (sorry if I keep talking about COMPROMISING STANDARDS haha...but I really do care about that).

So you disagree with any and all preferential treatment to all people regardless of class, color, sex, creed, etc?

When it comes to university admission and hiring of employees? Absolutely. I think that when we see inequalities arise in these areas we need to address the root cause. Is it that their education was worse? Fix that. Give them access to free tutors, let them retake tests and then reapply. Don't just create quotas. It's horrendously counterproductive.

Then what do you mean by this?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure how I was unclear here? I don't agree with affirmative action. You guys know what that means, yeah? Or is that a weird Australian term that Americans don't generally use?

 

[Ashley_Green1988]

What if this was based on merit? What would you say about it then?

Hey will reply to this later - it's NYE here in Aus and I need to go foraging for supplies i.e alcohol

 

[jakeislove]

Affirmative.

Don't be a victim.

Begin a public affirmative action campaign for the put-upon.

 

[RJGOP]

Don't be a victim.

Begin a public affirmative action campaign for the put-upon.

I'm not a victim and never said I was. I was just stating the facts.

 

[RJGOP]

Yeah that's why I said we need to wait and see what happens in the next decade or two. I obviously don't accept your premise that minorities are favoured in any *meaningful* way. I think a lot of lip service is paid to it and it's a popular thing to legislate - but whether that actually translates to real favouritism and measurable advantage - that I'm a little more doubtful about. But yeah, time will tell I guess.

I am curious about what you think of this study that I posted before (I posted it as an edit so you may have missed it):

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

^^^ seems to show that there is still quite a lot of discrimination at the hiring level / screening level with employment

I was mostly referring to education when I said that blacks and minorities in general have an advantage, in other fields such as the workforce I think it depends on the employers and region. In my opinion this article is a bit anecdotal, however I do acknowledge that racial bias still remains. I think it goes both ways though. Albeit it would be more popular to publish something about discriminating against blacks than it would be about discriminating against whites, again that's just my opinion.

 

[touchpause13]

Yes it is an advantage. However I think people would take offense to being asked if their race benefited them in admissions process or anything else. That would imply that perhaps they didn't earn what they have or had.


Fair enough.

I wouldn't be offended if you asked me that question. I would also say yes it has.

 

[RJGOP]

I wouldn't be offended if you asked me that question. I would also say yes it has.

What if I asked you whether or not your gender has benefited you in those ways?

 

[touchpause13]

What if I asked you whether or not your gender has benefited you in those ways?

It's a interesting question.

Generally in life I would see my gender as a net negative.

Honestly I'm not sure if it helped or hindered during the application process. I think at some schools it could have helped and others it could have hindered. The school I was accepted at I didn't actually talk about my family at all, because I was worried that doing so would give off the impression of just wanting to have babies which is seen negatively.

If you want to go further and ask about my orientation, I wasn't out in my application at all because I was concerned about that being a reason to reject me. I regret doing that because it felt dishonest for the record.

 

[Dave89]

With deluded nonsense about white males usually getting the short end of the stick? If this is true (it isn't), white males must truly be magical creatures given that, in the face of all this discrimination and hardship, they still manage to dominate the top of almost every single profession and still earn more than any other group.

Why do you continue to lie?

Asian men earn the most, and Asian households have the highest income compared to those of other races.