morality of "being in it for $$$"

[deleted659902]

Do you believe it is okay if a person chooses to pursue dentistry (in the case of predents) or specialty programs (in the case of dental students) primarily for income potential? In other words, is "being in it for $$$" moral, amoral, or immoral?

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[cacajuate]

Every person chooses to be a dentist because it makes decent money. It may not be the only reason, but it's definitely one.

 

[tooth knockn]

Do you believe it is okay if a person chooses to pursue dentistry (in the case of predents) or specialty programs (in the case of dental students) primarily for income potential? In other words, is "being in it for $$$" moral, amoral, or immoral?

Health care is just that, to provide health care or to receive it.

In my opinion it is intolerable to see a NEW RECENT GRADUATE ( <4-5 years of experience) dentist charge so much money for a procedure only because around the corner is charging the same amount for the same procedure.... BUT the main DIFFERENCE is that the dentist around the corner has been in the dental game for 10-15 years, while the new dentist is matching his costs per procedure to the experienced dentist while doing half ass jobs.


Getting paid is not a problem, but getting paid for a service which is not done up to par to someone is doing good good work for the same price is a no good doer.

In dentistry, and automotive mechanics businesses there are a lot of money hungry no good doers.... And they will not care how they get their dollar, but will say and do whatever it takes to get it.....


And in healthcare, would you want your mother being treated for a cancer when there is no cancer?

 

[Soleus715]

Money is a necessity so I don't think it's immoral in that regard. There is a point when wanting too much money can be bad, but that's if dentists start doing unethical things to get ahead.

My friend got a 4 year undergrad degree in computer science and the starting is $120,000. That says something about people going into dentistry for the money. Dentistry takes a LOT of work to make a comparable amount of money. If you own a practice, you have to maintain both the business side and the clinical side. Other jobs require far less and pay a lot more. Anyone that's purely interested about profits in dentistry that invests 4 additional years and take out $300,000+ in loans is not being wise at all.

If you go to dental town or dentistry forum on SDN you can easily find discussions about money and how dentistry is not what it's sometimes advertised to be.

That being said, I think lots of great things come with dentistry and I want to believe that most people aren't drawn to it because of money.

 

[PlasmaMembrane]

What kind of silly question is this? Of course it's ok. Being a dentist is a job, people primarily work jobs for the income to support themselves/their family/etc.

 

[Blistex000]

I think it's somewhat immoral to become a dentist "solely" for the money. Dentists (as well as any healthcare practitioner) provide important health services their patients. When money comes before your patients, then something isn't quite right. For comparison, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "I want to become a business man solely for the money."

I don't think it's wrong to pursue a healthcare profession just because it does indeed pay you well as long as you have a mindset of helping people at the same time.

But if dentists and doctors didn't make as much money as they do, I'm pretty sure there won't be as many doctors and dentists as there are today. That's just reality.

 

[kerfufle]

If your main motivation is making money and you choose dentistry you made a mistake, plane and simple. Dentists do ok but there's no reason to take on this amount of debt to make what most dentists make. Just my opinion.

 

[ladentista007]

If your main motivation is making money and you choose dentistry you made a mistake, plane and simple. Dentists do ok but there's no reason to take on this amount of debt to make what most dentists make. Just my opinion.

I guess you're referring to general dentistry...

 

[Bereno]

Lol.

Word choice is very important here. Having a background in fiance, I can tell you that if someone goes into dentistry for the sole purpose of financial gain, then they did not look that far since there are many other options with greater financial gain (net, that is). Is it immoral/amoral to select a healthcare profession only for money? Yes. Is it immoral/amoral select a healthcare profession using income as one of the reasons? No. As a matter of fact, it is downright foolish and extremely naive to for income to not be a factor. This is not some idealistic world; this is the reality of things.

A quick example: 4 vs 6 year OMFS program. Both have the same core requirements to become a board certified oral surgeon, however the 6 year gives you an MD, but carries an opportunity cost of about $700,000 give or take a few hundred thousand, and 2 more years of your life. If cost did not come into play, everyone should go into a 6 year program since they technically get more training. Reality is, cost comes into play, and for me, the MD is not worth the time, effort, and monetary costs. Note that the MD would not provide me with any relevant extra training, and thus would not make me any better of a surgeon. For others, the 6 year route is the better option since they will get much more value from the MD than I would (for various reasons). Does this make me immoral/amoral? Nope, it makes me pragmatic and realistic. Simple as that.

 

[deleted659902]

What kind of silly question is this? Of course it's ok. Being a dentist is a job, people primarily work jobs for the income to support themselves/their family/etc.

There seems to be two types of people in dentistry. One who perceives dentistry as a mere job (9-5 Mon-Fri) and is callous towards advancing the field as long as the person earns good enough income. Then there's is this other type that sees dentistry as a life-long career and holds himself/herself to the highest level of ethical and clinical standards not only to enhance the public's perception of dentists but also to become as competent of a dentist as the person can be because at the end of the day, it's more than a mere job for the person.

You don't sound like the latter type.

 

[OSUkid]

Health care is just that, to provide health care or to receive it.

In my opinion it is intolerable to see a NEW RECENT GRADUATE ( <4-5 years of experience) dentist charge so much money for a procedure only because around the corner is charging the same amount for the same procedure.... BUT the main DIFFERENCE is that the dentist around the corner has been in the dental game for 10-15 years, while the new dentist is matching his costs per procedure to the experienced dentist while doing half ass jobs.


Getting paid is not a problem, but getting paid for a service which is not done up to par to someone is doing good good work for the same price is a no good doer.

In dentistry, and automotive mechanics businesses there are a lot of money hungry no good doers.... And they will not care how they get their dollar, but will say and do whatever it takes to get it.....


And in healthcare, would you want your mother being treated for a cancer when there is no cancer?

its ok teddy bear

 

[PlasmaMembrane]

There seems to be two types of people in dentistry. One who perceives dentistry as a mere job (9-5 Mon-Fri) and is callous towards advancing the field as long as the person earns good enough income. Then there's is this other type that sees dentistry as a life-long career and holds himself/herself to the highest level of ethical and clinical standards not only to enhance the public's perception of dentists but also to become as competent of a dentist as the person can be because at the end of the day, it's more than a mere job for the person.

You don't sound like the latter type.

The air must be pretty thin up on that high horse. Too bad holding dentistry as a means of making money and being an ethical practitioner aren't mutually exclusive - you seem to have a thing for creating strawman arguments.

 

[Bereno]

There seems to be two types of people in dentistry. One who perceives dentistry as a mere job (9-5 Mon-Fri) and is callous towards advancing the field as long as the person earns good enough income. Then there's is this other type that sees dentistry as a life-long career and holds himself/herself to the highest level of ethical and clinical standards not only to enhance the public's perception of dentists but also to become as competent of a dentist as the person can be because at the end of the day, it's more than a mere job for the person.

You don't sound like the latter type.

Clinical and ethical standards are not mutually exclusive from income generation. Be careful not to become too self righteous and lose sight of your grounding.

 

[Bereno]

Looks like @PlasmaMembrane had the same thing to say haha

 

[deleted659902]

The air must be pretty thin up on that high horse. Too bad holding dentistry as a means of making money and being an ethical practitioner aren't mutually exclusive - you seem to have a thing for creating strawman arguments.

I don't think you understand what strawman fallacy actually means..Besides, resorting to ad hominem won't really help your (invalid) case now, would it?

With that said, although ethical and clinical standards and maximizing income may not seem mutually exclusive, I posit that they are competing interests, especially from the patients' standpoint, and ultimately are mutually exclusive. There is a reason why business entities and professionals declare conflict of interest these days, no matter how ethical they perceive themselves to be.

 

[tennisgirl888]

I am majorly drawn the the idea of being able to support myself and my family. That's a VERY normal reason to be drawn to a career! You're fine

 

[OSUkid]

Should people care more about doing the right thing, or doing things right?

 

[strep mutans]

Should people care more about doing the right thing, or doing things right?

2deep4me

 

[DentalGirl5]

Coming from the guy who talked down to tooth knockn for getting a 17AA and applying to "elite" schools. Check yo-self before you wreck yo-self

The air must be pretty thin up on that high horse. Too bad holding dentistry as a means of making money and being an ethical practitioner aren't mutually exclusive - you seem to have a thing for creating strawman arguments.

 

[OSUkid]

Coming from the guy who talked down to tooth knockn for getting a 17AA and applying to "elite" schools. Check yo-self before you wreck yo-self

marry me

 

[OSUkid]

The air must be pretty thin up on that high horse. Too bad holding dentistry as a means of making money and being an ethical practitioner aren't mutually exclusive - you seem to have a thing for creating strawman arguments.

whatever that means, am I right?

 

[DentalLonghorn2014]

marry me

Hahahaha

 

[OSUkid]

Risk it 4 the biscuit dental horn

 

[DentalLonghorn2014]

Risk it 4 the biscuit dental horn

I hear ya man. She liked your post. I guess it worked!

 

[OSUkid]

I hear ya man. She liked your post. I guess it worked!

No regrets. It's what shapes as humans.

 

[DentalLonghorn2014]

No regrets. It's what shapes as humans.

ha well, I hope you aren't wanting to marry her because of that attractive DAT score. If so, that's pretty shallow man!

...and this thread just took a detour.

 

[OSUkid]

ha well, I hope you aren't wanting to marry her because of that attractive DAT score. If so, that's pretty shallow man!

...and this thread just took a detour.

To be honest I just realized what her dat score was after you pointed it out.

 

[DentalLonghorn2014]

To be honest I just realized what her dat score was after you pointed it out.

Her breakdown is pretty awesome btw!

 

[OSUkid]

Her breakdown is pretty awesome btw!

I believe you, I wouldn't doubt my fiancé

 

[DentalLonghorn2014]

I believe you, I wouldn't doubt my fiancé

 

[OSUkid]

 

[ajj70]

Do you believe it is okay if a person chooses to pursue dentistry (in the case of predents) or specialty programs (in the case of dental students) primarily for income potential? In other words, is "being in it for $$$" moral, amoral, or immoral?

Ask yourself this question, if dentists made $50,000 at the most, but dental school still cost the same, would you still go into dentistry?

I have yet to see any REAL posters here with the attitude that money is their sole reason for going into dentistry. I have run into a few in real life that have hyped up practices and are unethical and while I do not know for certain, their practice model suggests they are in it for the money. They are also the same dentists that if you look up on your state dental board have sanctions against them...

There is nothing unethical or immoral about wanting to have a comfortable life in a career you love. How you get to that point is what matters. You spouted off on the other thread where you started this debate about it being wrong to have anything more than was necessary. I pointed out that having a one room house, with no running water, growing your own food, making your own clothing out of cloth you also produced, etc. was all that was necessary, but then you said that well, maybe that wasn't really what you meant by necessary.

As far as being in dentistry to "enhance the public's perception of dentists", that thought never crossed my mind actually. I have many reasons for going into dentistry, first and foremost is because I like to help people, I find dentistry a fascinating career and other reasons, however, if dentists were paid $40,000 with that debt load to do the job, I probably would not go into the field and would have found something else.

 

[tooth knockn]

So relating to money and working.... And I will add in some racial issues.....

So big cities across the countries are going through minimum wage issues, and specifically fast food restaurants are at the center of this. $15 is wanted be the workers, in order to have a LIVING WAGE.

Most likely these minimum wages will rise especially since California and I think Seattle are already contracted to raise the minim to $15 bye 2018.


So, I bet by 2020, we will see the demographics of fast food workers go from Hispanic and black majority to a more whiter mix of employees, especially in the main cities, NYC , LA, Boston ....

And why should not the minimum wage rise?

If the CEO's and regional managers are getting fat checks AND bonuses.... Why can't the majority of the workers get a lousy raise? To at least live like an American and not a third world citizen....

And these CEO's say that this raise will cause drastic problems..... Why not stop the bonuses, and give themselves a pay cut ? So the majority could become happy for once....



Maybe one day, when we go to a fast food joint, we will get an actual smile from the heart... And not because the boss said so!

 

[deleted480308]

So relating to money and working.... And I will add in some racial issues.....

So big cities across the countries are going through minimum wage issues, and specifically fast food restaurants are at the center of this. $15 is wanted be the workers, in order to have a LIVING WAGE.

Most likely these minimum wages will rise especially since California and I think Seattle are already contracted to raise the minim to $15 bye 2018.


So, I bet by 2020, we will see the demographics of fast food workers go from Hispanic and black majority to a more whiter mix of employees, especially in the main cities, NYC , LA, Boston ....

And why should not the minimum wage rise?

If the CEO's and regional managers are getting fat checks AND bonuses.... Why can't the majority of the workers get a lousy raise? To at least live like an American and not a third world citizen....

And these CEO's say that this raise will cause drastic problems..... Why not stop the bonuses, and give themselves a pay cut ? So the majority could become happy for once....



Maybe one day, when we go to a fast food joint, we will get an actual smile from the heart... And not because the boss said so!

You've never had employees in a company you owned have you?

 

[cacajuate]

Health care is just that, to provide health care or to receive it.

In my opinion it is intolerable to see a NEW RECENT GRADUATE ( <4-5 years of experience) dentist charge so much money for a procedure only because around the corner is charging the same amount for the same procedure.... BUT the main DIFFERENCE is that the dentist around the corner has been in the dental game for 10-15 years, while the new dentist is matching his costs per procedure to the experienced dentist while doing half ass jobs.


Getting paid is not a problem, but getting paid for a service which is not done up to par to someone is doing good good work for the same price is a no good doer.

In dentistry, and automotive mechanics businesses there are a lot of money hungry no good doers.... And they will not care how they get their dollar, but will say and do whatever it takes to get it.....


And in healthcare, would you want your mother being treated for a cancer when there is no cancer?

So relating to money and working.... And I will add in some racial issues.....

So big cities across the countries are going through minimum wage issues, and specifically fast food restaurants are at the center of this. $15 is wanted be the workers, in order to have a LIVING WAGE.

Most likely these minimum wages will rise especially since California and I think Seattle are already contracted to raise the minim to $15 bye 2018.


So, I bet by 2020, we will see the demographics of fast food workers go from Hispanic and black majority to a more whiter mix of employees, especially in the main cities, NYC , LA, Boston ....

And why should not the minimum wage rise?

If the CEO's and regional managers are getting fat checks AND bonuses.... Why can't the majority of the workers get a lousy raise? To at least live like an American and not a third world citizen....

And these CEO's say that this raise will cause drastic problems..... Why not stop the bonuses, and give themselves a pay cut ? So the majority could become happy for once....



Maybe one day, when we go to a fast food joint, we will get an actual smile from the heart... And not because the boss said so!

Why are you talking about minimum wage? This has nothing to do with dentistry and reasons behind choosing it.

 

[tooth knockn]

You've never had employees in a company you owned have you?

Have you? To don't try to be such a wise guy.....

I am not referring to 500k or 1M dollar companies with more than 10 employees, I am referring to businesses which have a work force at the entry level, like fast food workers, which are probably greater than 1000 employees per state, probably much greater, and some of those individuals have families or are independent students forced to live on government assistance.

And to relate to dentistry,
Actually dental staff are usually well compensated...... Much better than fast food cashiers.....


I thought this topic fit the bill for this topic title "in it for the $".....


It is annoying that this country is still so divided racially and getting more divided financially......

 

[tooth knockn]

* I am referring to the 500k$ ....

 

[deleted480308]

Have you? To don't try to be such a wise guy.....

I am not referring to 500k or 1M dollar companies with more than 10 employees, I am referring to businesses which have a work force at the entry level, like fast food workers, which are probably greater than 1000 employees per state, probably much greater, and some of those individuals have families or are independent students forced to live on government assistance.

And to relate to dentistry,
Actually dental staff are usually well compensated...... Much better than fast food cashiers.....


I thought this topic fit the bill for this topic title "in it for the $".....


It is annoying that this country is still so divided racially and getting more divided financially......

I have personally employed unskilled labor for a number of years.

 

[ajj70]

Have you? To don't try to be such a wise guy.....

I am not referring to 500k or 1M dollar companies with more than 10 employees, I am referring to businesses which have a work force at the entry level, like fast food workers, which are probably greater than 1000 employees per state, probably much greater, and some of those individuals have families or are independent students forced to live on government assistance.

And to relate to dentistry,
Actually dental staff are usually well compensated...... Much better than fast food cashiers.....


I thought this topic fit the bill for this topic title "in it for the $".....


It is annoying that this country is still so divided racially and getting more divided financially......

The reality is, most people working at low wage jobs are not the main breadwinner in the family. Also, raise the minimum wage to $15-20/hour or whatever, other costs will go up as well, not to mention the wages of people that work for the same company in other positions. You can't pay your cashier $15/hour and your manager $15.50/hour....well you could, but no one would want the management positions. The market, in the end, determines what people are paid. A cashier at Walmart is a low skill job requiring no education beyond basic reading and thus, the wages earned.

 

[deleted659902]

I'd like to know @andreadds 's opinion on this issue.

 

[ajj70]

I'd like to know @andreadds 's opinion on this issue.

why??

 

[tooth knockn]

I have personally employed unskilled labor for a number of years.

So because you lack teaching skills, and your supervised staff is not improving on their skills over the course of time under your supervision... That means they must be paid the minimum ? Shouldn't you have to be replaced?

To employ an unskilled individual is to accept the potential that person may have to grow..... Other wise why employ them, if they are meeting your requirements?

 

[PlasmaMembrane]

Coming from the guy who talked down to tooth knockn for getting a 17AA and applying to "elite" schools. Check yo-self before you wreck yo-self

What was wrong with my post to tooth knockn? He applied to two schools where his DAT was below the lowest score they have accepted the past few cycles. He wasted his money, trying to white knight for him doesn't change that. I think it's cute you're trying to watch over him, but instead of blowing smoke up his ass try being honest with him. He stands no chance at Columbia or Penn with a 17 AA/3.2 GPA. That's not a high horse, it's statistics.

Dank meme though.

 

[andreadds]

I'd like to know @andreadds 's opinion on this issue.

I just read the first post and not all the replies. I'm currently in a Chicago BMP continuing education course so quickly..

Its ok if someone goes into dentistry for a better income but it shouldn't affect their treatment planning. They should always do what's best for the patient and offer all the possible treatment options.

 

[Bereno]

In my opinion it is intolerable to see a NEW RECENT GRADUATE ( <4-5 years of experience) dentist charge so much money for a procedure only because around the corner is charging the same amount for the same procedure.... BUT the main DIFFERENCE is that the dentist around the corner has been in the dental game for 10-15 years, while the new dentist is matching his costs per procedure to the experienced dentist while doing half ass jobs.

You're joking, right? This holds no water whatsoever lol

 

[tooth knockn]

You're joking, right? This holds no water whatsoever lol

Think about it.....

 

[deleted480308]

So because you lack teaching skills, and your supervised staff is not improving on their skills over the course of time under your supervision... That means they must be paid the minimum ? Shouldn't you have to be replaced?

To employ an unskilled individual is to accept the potential that person may have to grow..... Other wise why employ them, if they are meeting your requirements?

Many construction jobs don't require skilled labor. Unskilled is fine. I paid better than minimum wage to help save me the time of dealing with constant turnover and also gave them freedom to take off for tests if they went to school. i also offered to pay for their ged and tutor them. Never had to write that check or tutor because some people don't hate unskilled labor enough to improve their skills. Some of them got promotions and raises as they learned skills on site....one of them is now a successful site super. A bunch of them are still doing labor.

Not my problem either way. If an adult chooses to make that their economic level in life, it's their call.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

 

[kerfufle]

So relating to money and working.... And I will add in some racial issues.....

So big cities across the countries are going through minimum wage issues, and specifically fast food restaurants are at the center of this. $15 is wanted be the workers, in order to have a LIVING WAGE.

Most likely these minimum wages will rise especially since California and I think Seattle are already contracted to raise the minim to $15 bye 2018.


So, I bet by 2020, we will see the demographics of fast food workers go from Hispanic and black majority to a more whiter mix of employees, especially in the main cities, NYC , LA, Boston ....

And why should not the minimum wage rise?

If the CEO's and regional managers are getting fat checks AND bonuses.... Why can't the majority of the workers get a lousy raise? To at least live like an American and not a third world citizen....

And these CEO's say that this raise will cause drastic problems..... Why not stop the bonuses, and give themselves a pay cut ? So the majority could become happy for once....



Maybe one day, when we go to a fast food joint, we will get an actual smile from the heart... And not because the boss said so!

Socialism has been tried and it sucks. Capitalism has its flaws but it's the best thing we have.

 

[whitepapertree]