More debt talk!

[FranzLO]

So it has probably been discussed ad nauseam, but this forum has been very active so I figured I would post here. With the flexibility, lifestyle, job satisfaction and my personal interests, psychiatry is really swaying me. However, I am guessing I will have around 250k+ debt before interest. I imagine this could get to 350-400k if I don't work hard paying it off early.

I figure moonlighting, PSLF (assuming it is still in effect, unless I go into PP which I probably prefer anyway) and the fact that my wife would also be a physician help (although she has her own 200k debt), but there is still going to be that concern. I am also more than fine with working to pay it off and upgrade my lifestyle after several years of practicing.

I am more interested in if anyone can comment on their experiences in psychiatry with this magnitude of debt? Also, It makes sense that a dual earning household (2 people making 200k+ each) is much easier even with the doubled debt (split costs), but I was also curious if anyone was in this specific situation too. Thanks!

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[vistaril]

So it has probably been discussed ad nauseam, but this forum has been very active so I figured I would post here. With the flexibility, lifestyle, job satisfaction and my personal interests, psychiatry is really swaying me. However, I am guessing I will have around 250k+ debt before interest. I imagine this could get to 350-400k if I don't work hard paying it off early.

I figure moonlighting, PSLF (assuming it is still in effect, unless I go into PP which I probably prefer anyway) and the fact that my wife would also be a physician help (although she has her own 200k debt), but there is still going to be that concern. I am also more than fine with working to pay it off and upgrade my lifestyle after several years of practicing.

I am more interested in if anyone can comment on their experiences in psychiatry with this magnitude of debt? Also, It makes sense that a dual earning household (2 people making 200k+ each) is much easier even with the doubled debt (split costs), but I was also curious if anyone was in this specific situation too. Thanks!

Paying off loans is a bummer....I'm doing it now. I pay about 2k a month, but remember that you have to make over 3k a month to actually pay 2k back. So basically im 'starting' off 3k in the whole every month. None of this is going to be tax deductible by the way.

As for pslf, I wouldn't count on that. Anyone counting on that who makes > 150k doing anything is a moran in my opinion.

If paying back loans is a big concern for you, I would recommend picking a higher paying field. Again, depending on how much you value money.

 

[Armadillos]

While it will suck to have two sets of loans, the earning power of a two physician household is immense even if your doing relatively low paying specialties. Even in residency your bringing in 1ook+ which is more than the vast majority of households. Then suddenly in 4 years your household is making 400-450k, a couple more years of living the same lifestyle as a resident can knock a big chunk off of those loans. Now obviously 2 anesthesiologists would be making significantly more, but a two psychiatrist family is not going to be hurting financially regardless of the loans. But yes, specialties that make more money, will make more money.

 

[F0nzie]

Live like a resident while earning 200k a year and you can pay it off in 5 years. That delayed gratification.

 

[vistaril]

Live like a resident while earning 200k a year and you can pay it off in 5 years. That delayed gratification.

true, but what if you die in 4 and a half years? I think one must have a balance between living life and planning for the future most prudently. Living in the moment to some degree is rewarding.

Also, I think the future of our field is much more bleak than most in here from a $ perspective. But that's really another thread.

 

[F0nzie]

true, but what if you die in 4 and a half years? I think one must have a balance between living life and planning for the future most prudently. Living in the moment to some degree is rewarding.

Also, I think the future of our field is much more bleak than most in here from a $ perspective. But that's really another thread.

Yea I am not planning on paying off my loans in 5 years. I am funneling the cash towards retirement, investments, and good times. My immediate goal is to pay off the 6.8% loans then letting the rest drag for 30 years.

 

[F0nzie]

This isn't ortho, rad onc, cards or ophtho where you will be routinely raking in 500k+ a year but you will certainly make enough coin to pay off your loans. Psych salaries are fine IMO. I certainly do not know what the hell to do with all this extra money sometimes.

 

[vistaril]

yes fonzie but you have a wife who works as a psychiatrist as well. For single people or people with spouses who don't work full time, things are much tighter. And I agree that right now psych salaries(for those of us who do the usual daily grind) are ok, but that's right now....I'm not sure that 15 years from now that will still be the case.

 

[wolfvgang22]

I have similar debt. I'm living a comfortable middle class life, paying monthly on loans, single earner household, 220k salary, putting money away for retirement. Probably have loans paid off in 5 to 10 years depending on hobbies...I mean, priorities. Got plans for travel on vacation this year, took up tool purchasing... I mean, woodworking. Bought a nice car. Could I use more money? Yeah, always. Am I happy financially? Yeah, its OK. Tragedy can always occur, health can fail. Its good to save and prepare but not good to live a living death while saving everything and worrying only to cough it all up to the nursing home eventually.

 

[vistaril]

I have similar debt. I'm living a comfortable middle class life, paying monthly on loans, single earner household, 220k salary, putting money away for retirement. Probably have loans paid off in 5 to 10 years depending on hobbies...I mean, priorities. Got plans for travel on vacation this year, took up tool purchasing... I mean, woodworking. Bought a nice car. Could I use more money? Yeah, always. Am I happy financially? Yeah, its OK. Tragedy can always occur, health can fail. Its good to save and prepare but not good to live a living death while saving everything and worrying only to cough it all up to the nursing home eventually.

yes but your salary is the highest VA salary for a starting psychiatrist I've seen. The reality is that the VAs there just pay a lot more for people just out of residency. In most VAs its going to be much less as shikima and others have posted.

 

[F0nzie]

yes fonzie but you have a wife who works as a psychiatrist as well. For single people or people with spouses who don't work full time, things are much tighter. And I agree that right now psych salaries(for those of us who do the usual daily grind) are ok, but that's right now....I'm not sure that 15 years from now that will still be the case.

Aren't you a swinging bachelor pulling in 400k+? Should be able to get a million dollar pad, a Ferrari and a few extra thousand to send my way.

 

[vistaril]

Aren't you a swinging bachelor pulling in 400k+? Should be able to get a million dollar pad, a Ferrari and a few extra thousand to send my way.

ha no to all of those.....I do pull that on a monthly basis, but I hustle like crazy to get it. I work over 60 hours per week and most of it(especially the inpatient component) is a combination of hustling, extreme efficiency, etc....Im very much part of the daily grind, and I suspect most of the psychiatrists in here aren't interested in that(that's why they pick academia or the VA or some other setting)

 

[Frazier]

Aren't you a swinging bachelor pulling in 400k+? Should be able to get a million dollar pad, a Ferrari and a few extra thousand to send my way.

ha no to all of those.....I do pull that on a monthly basis, but I hustle like crazy to get it. I work over 60 hours per week and most of it(especially the inpatient component) is a combination of hustling, extreme efficiency, etc....Im very much part of the daily grind, and I suspect most of the psychiatrists in here aren't interested in that(that's why they pick academia or the VA or some other setting)

400k per month. Says no money in psych. Classic Vistaril.

 

[vistaril]

400k per month. Says no money in psych. Classic Vistaril.

there is no money in psych relative to most other fields. Like I said with this level of hustling, efficiency, and work in even other low paying fields you'd be looking at 600k+.

But again, it's not relevant because most people in psych don't want to work as much as I do. And even if they do they don't want to work as efficiently in the settings I do as I do. II like the way that sounds....I do as I do)

 

[Frazier]

there is no money in psych relative to most other fields. Like I said with this level of hustling, efficiency, and work in even other low paying fields you'd be looking at 600k+.

But again, it's not relevant because most people in psych don't want to work as much as I do. And even if they do they don't want to work as efficiently in the settings I do as I do. II like the way that sounds....I do as I do)

I'm very familiar with your philosophy. "400k per month" was the key line from my post.

 

[wolfvgang22]

Don't hate tha playa, hate the game

 

[vistaril]

I'm very familiar with your philosophy. "400k per month" was the key line from my post.

then your post is silly. When I said "I pull that on a monthly basis", I obviously mean pro-rated(over 33-34k or so per month, on pace for over 410k for the year). Awhile back someone asked me what I'm going to make in 2015 and I gave them a number based on how I'm doing these last several months. Obviously it's hard to predict the future(and how contracts will play out over a whole years time), so that's why I referenced things in months.

 

[F0nzie]

I don't see anything wrong with Vistaril making 400k. He's making double a psychiatrist's salary because he works twice as hard. He isn't scamming the system either. If someone makes 50k and wants to make six figures working double the hours thats awesome. Better than complaining that they only make 50k and wanting free handouts.

 

[Shikima]

So in talking with my federal loans and finding out which payment plan I 'qualify' for to be involved with PSLF - my debt load using IBR would end up paying off the loan in 10 years which co-incidentally is the same length of time as PSLF.

 

[F0nzie]

So in talking with my federal loans and finding out which payment plan I 'qualify' for to be involved with PSLF - my debt load using IBR would end up paying off the loan in 10 years which co-incidentally is the same length of time as PSLF.

Ditto. No free money for us.

 

[clusterF]

I am in a similar position with a physician wife. Although we did buy a house etc, we basically live off of less than 1 persons salary. We will have paid off our loans in about 5 years.

We live comfortably, take vacations, go out etc. No ferraris (or teslas in my case).

 

[st2205]

Yea I am not planning on paying off my loans in 5 years. I am funneling the cash towards retirement, investments, and good times. My immediate goal is to pay off the 6.8% loans then letting the rest drag for 30 years.

Eh. Wish my interest rate was that low. Last night I calculated the amount of interest I was accruing daily on 7.25% and almost passed out.

 

[Shikima]

Eh. Wish my interest rate was that low. Last night I calculated the amount of interest I was accruing daily on 7.25% and almost passed out.

Don't worry, there is a lot of 'free" money out there to sell your soul for.

 

[Baller MD]

Don't worry, there is a lot of 'free" money out there to sell your soul for.

Besides the military, what are the options out there?

 

[Shikima]

Besides the military, what are the options out there?

Crappy & malignant jobs that'll work you to death with a decent salary and give you a very high signing bonus. Then you'll have to decide, am I a W2 or 1099 kinda guy?!

 

[Frazier]

I don't see anything wrong with Vistaril making 400k. He's making double a psychiatrist's salary because he works twice as hard. He isn't scamming the system either. If someone makes 50k and wants to make six figures working double the hours thats awesome. Better than complaining that they only make 50k and wanting free handouts.

Right on. I don't think anyone sees a problem with earning more by working more or more efficiently.

then your post is silly. When I said "I pull that on a monthly basis", I obviously mean pro-rated(over 33-34k or so per month, on pace for over 410k for the year). Awhile back someone asked me what I'm going to make in 2015 and I gave them a number based on how I'm doing these last several months. Obviously it's hard to predict the future(and how contracts will play out over a whole years time), so that's why I referenced things in months.

It was indeed a silly post. It would be called joking...

there is no money in psych relative to most other fields. Like I said with this level of hustling, efficiency, and work in even other low paying fields you'd be looking at 600k+.

But again, it's not relevant because most people in psych don't want to work as much as I do. And even if they do they don't want to work as efficiently in the settings I do as I do. II like the way that sounds....I do as I do)

...Kind of like how your hyperbole is also a joke.

"No money compared to most other fields"?
What is that? What does that even mean "no money"? 25k less? 50k? 100k? 500k?

MGMA has the 90th% for all hospitalist varieties, IM, Peds, etc around 300k.
You want to bet those folks in that 90th% for their field aren't "hustling" too?

Hell, how many hours per week do you think the average general surgeon puts in? More than 50... their mean is around 330k...BUT if YOU were magically a general surgeon working 60 hours, your efficiency would put you at 600k+...because you are special and those other general surgeons are slackers not worrying about efficiency?

Let me guess, MGMA is way off and the average general surgeon working 50 hours per week already pulls in 500k per year...Right?

Do you know the average hours put in by the different specialties? Oh yea, that's right you claim Derm makes ~1M working 40 hrs/week. IM makes 600k working 60 hours. Neurosurgeons make multi-M working 60 hours. It is ridiculous.

You often make ridiculous claims. You often have for years now.

Lies, bad recommendations, and hyperbole: the go-to trifecta.

EDIT: Not always the case. Sometimes give good input, maybe even solid advice. "But..."

 

[Baller MD]

Right on. I don't think anyone sees a problem with earning more by working more or more efficiently.



It was indeed a silly post. It would be called joking...



...Kind of like how your hyperbole is also a joke.

"No money compared to most other fields"?
What is that? What does that even mean "no money"? 25k less? 50k? 100k? 500k?

MGMA has the 90th% for all hospitalist varieties, IM, Peds, etc around 300k.
You want to bet those folks in that 90th% for their field aren't "hustling" too?

Hell, how many hours per week do you think the average general surgeon puts in? More than 50... their mean is around 330k...BUT if YOU were magically a general surgeon working 60 hours, your efficiency would put you at 600k+...because you are special and those other general surgeons are slackers not worrying about efficiency?

Let me guess, MGMA is way off and the average general surgeon working 50 hours per week already pulls in 500k per year...Right?

Do you know the average hours put in by the different specialties? Oh yea, that's right you claim Derm makes 1M working 40 hrs/week. IM makes 600k working 60 hours. Neurosurgeons make 3M working 60 hours. It is ridiculous.

You often make ridiculous claims. You often have for years now.

Lies, bad recommendations, and hyperbole: the go-to trifecta.

EDIT: Not always the case. Sometimes give good input, maybe even solid advice. "But..."

Do you know where I can find the most recent MGMA data?

 

[Frazier]

Do you know where I can find the most recent MGMA data?

2010 report is what circulated on SDN. There was some blog site that posted more recent report (2012 or 2013)...

Numbers don't seem to change much over the years in the specialties with large sample sizes.

 

[Shikima]

Do you know where I can find the most recent MGMA data?

I've seen plenty of offers in e-mails 250k+ to start.

 

[digitlnoize]

There's also the theory that with interest rates as low as they are, you'd be better off NOT paying down your low-interest student loans quickly and instead investing that money aggressively in the market, or another reliable investment vehicle. Discuss.

 

[F0nzie]

There's also the theory that with interest rates as low as they are, you'd be better off NOT paying down your low-interest student loans quickly and instead investing that money aggressively in the market, or another reliable investment vehicle. Discuss.

Agree

 

[Frazier]

Maybe you guys have different interest rates? The going rate is now ~7%.

Not that low, IMO. Hell, I have a credit card within 1 percentage point of student loan rates.

 

[vistaril]

Let me guess, MGMA is way off and the average general surgeon working 50 hours per week already pulls in 500k per year...Right?

Do you know the average hours put in by the different specialties? Oh yea, that's right you claim Derm makes ~1M working 40 hrs/week. IM makes 600k working 60 hours. Neurosurgeons make multi-M working 60 hours. It is ridiculous.

You often make ridiculous claims. You often have for years now.

Lies, bad recommendations, and hyperbole: the go-to trifecta.

EDIT: Not always the case. Sometimes give good input, maybe even solid advice. "But..."

I think there are a lot of factors here that make mgma numbers not very useful for a lot of situations. I'm obviously referring to practitioners in other fields who work in specific settings. And mgma data for psych is a little easier to nail down that mgma data for some other specialties simple because the potential revenue streams are different and more numerous. You may have 3 opthos for example who truly make the exact same thing but each is reporting wildly different numbers to mgma because they aren't sure what to report.

Finally, if you feel my claims are ridiculous and I give all these bad recs, you are more than welcome to not participate in threads with me. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep.

 

[Frazier]

...

Finally, if you feel my claims are ridiculous and I give all these bad recs, you are more than welcome to not participate in threads with me. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep.

Not always bad. I give you credit.

Nevertheless you offer extra task of needing to separate the wheat from the chaff. Which if no one comments on -- then suddenly the silent readership and posterity have no alternative opinion to your's.

 

[vistaril]

Not always bad. I give you credit.

Nevertheless you offer extra task of needing to separate the wheat from the chaff. Which if no one comments on -- then suddenly the silent readership and posterity have no alternative opinion to your's.

I'll fully admit I am at least 90% full of bs, but this is the lamest excuse/reason ever- participants in this forum have zero/zilch/none/nada to correct the misguided opinions of others for helpless premeds/med students. That is nonsensical. Anyone who uses that as an excuse is basically saying "this guy irritates me and I don't want him to know it, so......"

for people who want to verbally spar with me....that's cool. no shame in that and I enjoy it as well. But be a man and own up to what you're doing.....not hide behind some ridiculous excuse.

 

[Frazier]

I'll fully admit I am at least 90% full of bs, but this is the lamest excuse/reason ever- participants in this forum have zero/zilch/none/nada to correct the misguided opinions of others for helpless premeds/med students. That is nonsensical. Anyone who uses that as an excuse is basically saying "this guy irritates me and I don't want him to know it, so......"

for people who want to verbally spar with me....that's cool. no shame in that and I enjoy it as well. But be a man and own up to what you're doing.....not hide behind some ridiculous excuse.

There is not much to spar about when calling someone out on lies, bad recommendations, or hyperbole.

Since you're dragging this out:

Your many past accounts where you aggressively degrade psychiatry -- both on this subforum and other specialty subforums. Riddled with lies. Followed with lies about who you were/are. What is there to "spar" about? Past habitual lying just makes you a liar on the forums. There is nothing to debate, just to call you out so people that read the forum [and don't have the pleasure of knowing your MO] can recognize you for your past patterns and can thus choose to take your claims with a grain of salt.

Your bad recommendations... The whole "going to strip clubs on residency interview evenings/job interviews (or something like that)." The other advice you gave several weeks ago for an applicant to blatantly lie on their residency application since they likely won't get caught. What is there to "spar" about/debate about that being crappy advice?

Your hyperbole of "no money in psych" yet it sounds like you are working surgeon hours and pulling 400k+. When you really mean to say "the ceiling is higher in other fields"... One is hyperbolic -- the other isn't. There is nothing to spar over, just something to call you out on.

There is no "sparring" to be had because there is nothing to debate on these subjects. Like I said earlier, "separate the wheat from the chaff".

I imagine many of the people that used to call you out over the past 3 years just put you on the ignore list...if they don't see you, they can't disagree with you. I fully support you putting me on your ignore list if you don't like seeing my disagreements with your examples from above.

It is nothing personal -- could be an awesome dude in person for all I know-- I just disagree with your philosophy that it is the "lamest thing ever" to "correct the misguided opinions of others" for future generations of premeds/med students interested in psych.

Yes, I already know, you will "lose no sleep" over this. Good.

EDIT: And, again, you do make good contributions -- such as right now on the "selling a cash practice" thread. So it goes. I just keep my salt nearby.

 

[vistaril]

There is not much to spar about when calling someone out on lies, bad recommendations, or hyperbole.

Since you're dragging this out:

Your many past accounts where you aggressively degrade psychiatry -- both on this subforum and other specialty subforums. Riddled with lies. Followed with lies about who you were/are. What is there to "spar" about? Past habitual lying just makes you a liar on the forums. There is nothing to debate, just to call you out so people that read the forum [and don't have the pleasure of knowing your MO] can recognize you for your past patterns and can thus choose to take your claims with a grain of salt.

Your bad recommendations... The whole "going to strip clubs on residency interview evenings/job interviews (or something like that)." The other advice you gave several weeks ago for an applicant to blatantly lie on their residency application since they likely won't get caught. What is there to "spar" about/debate about that being crappy advice?

Your hyperbole of "no money in psych" yet it sounds like you are working surgeon hours and pulling 400k+. When you really mean to say "the ceiling is higher in other fields"... One is hyperbolic -- the other isn't. There is nothing to spar over, just something to call you out on.

There is no "sparring" to be had because there is nothing to debate on these subjects. Like I said earlier, "separate the wheat from the chaff".

I imagine many of the people that used to call you out over the past 3 years just put you on the ignore list...if they don't see you, they can't disagree with you. I fully support you putting me on your ignore list if you don't like seeing my disagreements with your examples from above.

It is nothing personal -- could be an awesome dude in person for all I know-- I just disagree with your philosophy that it is the "lamest thing ever" to "correct the misguided opinions of others" for future generations of premeds/med students interested in psych.

Yes, I already know, you will "lose no sleep" over this. Good.

EDIT: And, again, you do make good contributions -- such as right now on the "selling a cash practice" thread. So it goes. I just keep my salt nearby.

This is what I'm talking about: There is nothing to debate, just to call you out so people that read the forum [and don't have the pleasure of knowing your MO] can recognize you for your past patterns and can thus choose to take your claims with a grain of salt.

That's the lame part. Someone 'calls me out' for any number of reasons....maybe they don't like my persona in this forum, maybe they disagree with me on an issue, maybe what I said goes to some deeper issue they have......I have no idea and don't particularly care. But Im convinced nobody in this internet forum ever calls anyone else out FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. They do it for their own benefit...whether it's to make them feel better or whatever. Which is fine....hell I do that too when I disagree with others. I'll freely admit I don't go around posting to internet forums as an educational service to others(and gosh how arrogant would someone have to be to come to it with that sort of attitude anyways)....

It's kind of like a judge getting caught at work watching porn. He then states "well I'm watching it because I have to do research on that obscenity case we are going to have coming up". No, he's watching it because he wants to watch porn at work. Which is fine....and it would be a lot less lame if he just said he wanted to watch porn at work.

Also a lot of your examples don't make a lot of sense(or don't necessarily contradict what I've always maintained on a number of issues). Me saying "there is no money in psych" is obviously meant to be taken to mean "you can make a lot more in other fields". A reasonable person wouldn't take such a statement literally.

 

[Igor4sugry]

Paying off loans is a bummer....I'm doing it now. I pay about 2k a month, but remember that you have to make over 3k a month to actually pay 2k back. So basically im 'starting' off 3k in the whole every month. None of this is going to be tax deductible by the way.

As for pslf, I wouldn't count on that. Anyone counting on that who makes > 150k doing anything is a moran in my opinion.

If paying back loans is a big concern for you, I would recommend picking a higher paying field. Again, depending on how much you value money.

Lots of doom and gloom here about PSLF. Many med students now have 200-250k in loans. Although loan balances are high physicians have the most options for paying them off.
PSLF is a great way to do it. Any resident should enroll into IBR just in case they plan to do PSLF down the road, and because doing forbearance is unwise. You do your 4 years of residency, then if you work for 501c employer your loans will be forgiven in 6 years.

Yes interest rates are 6.8%, but over past year there are multiple private companies to refinance student loans after you graduate residency. There is a new post on whitecoatinverstor about how interest rates are going down even more with these companies. http://whitecoatinvestor.com/sofi-raises-lowers-the-bar-again/
Companies like SOFI, DRB, CommonBond, they have variable rates as low as 1.9% and fixed rates as low as 3.5%.

In any case follow whitecoatinvestor strategy of living like resident 3-5years after graduation, save aggressively and pay down your loans aggressively.

I do feel for attendings who are sole providers for their households with stay-at-home wife and coupe kids with say $200k salary and $200k in loans. Once you factor in cost of home/car/vacation/daily expenses/school/and increased saving rate to catch up to those who didn't spend extra 8 years post-undergrad then you are living a regular upper middle class lifestyle.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...
I do feel for attendings who are sole providers for their households with stay-at-home wife and coupe kids with say $200k salary and $200k in loans. Once you factor in cost of home/car/vacation/daily expenses/school/and increased saving rate to catch up to those who didn't spend extra 8 years post-undergrad then you are living a regular upper middle class lifestyle.

Oh. Darn.

Still better off than 80% of your fellow Americans....

 

[birchswing]

There's also the theory that with interest rates as low as they are, you'd be better off NOT paying down your low-interest student loans quickly and instead investing that money aggressively in the market, or another reliable investment vehicle. Discuss.

Where can you reliably get 7% (the number used in this thread) in the market? The market's doing well, but it's not reliable. Many think it's due for a correction soon.

 

[Mad Jack]

true, but what if you die in 4 and a half years? I think one must have a balance between living life and planning for the future most prudently. Living in the moment to some degree is rewarding.

Also, I think the future of our field is much more bleak than most in here from a $ perspective. But that's really another thread.

If the future is bleak, that's all the more reason to pay down the loans while the gravy train is running.

 

[digitlnoize]

Where can you reliably get 7% (the number used in this thread) in the market? The market's doing well, but it's not reliable. Many think it's due for a correction soon.

The exact number is debated in economic circles, however the general consensus seems to be that through diversified investments in good funds you should be able to reach between 7-12% return on average. Check here: http://www.daveramsey.com/article/the-12-reality/lifeandmoney_investing/

As he says, "The current average annual return from 1926, the year of the S&P’s inception, through 2011 is 11.69%. From 1992–2011, the S&P’s average is 9.07%. From 1987–2011, it’s 10.05%. In 2009, the market’s annual return was 26.46%. In 2010, it was 8%. In 2011, it was -1.12%."

Other people, say it's closer to 7%, so depends on who you believe. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle. http://www.thesimpledollar.com/where-does-7-come-from-when-it-comes-to-long-term-stock-returns/

Not all of us have loans at 7% either. I have some loans at 6.5% and some at 4.7%. I don't have any at 7%. Regardless, 7% is not a large number. Sink some of that money into a reliable business and you should be able to make more than a 7% profit margin. Whether you're doing rentals, a franchise, or some other pet project, if your side business can't clear 7% you're doing something wrong.

 

[Shikima]

I really don't see the numbers there for PSLF. If using IBR for physician, post-residency salaries, the 10 years at a qualifying institution/facility is the same and is a wash.
I don't believe that the PSLF was designed for physicians (trying not to inject political paranoia here).

 

[notdeadyet]

I really don't see the numbers there for PSLF. If using IBR for physician, post-residency salaries, the 10 years at a qualifying institution/facility is the same and is a wash.

The numbers are there. Assuming you have ample debt. Keep in mind that the first four years of the 10 years can be done in residency, when you're IBR maybe $400 a month.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NickNaylor]

I really don't see the numbers there for PSLF. If using IBR for physician, post-residency salaries, the 10 years at a qualifying institution/facility is the same and is a wash.
I don't believe that the PSLF was designed for physicians (trying not to inject political paranoia here).

I agree. I just did my exit counseling with our financial aid office a month or so ago, and I was actually surprised at how relatively little PSLF would end up paying in the long term. I'll graduate with about $120k of debt, and doing IBR x 10 years using the AAMC's salary figures (flawed though they may be) resulted in roughly $50k being forgiven by PSLF. Mind you, that's a lot of money, but for some reason it was much less than I was expecting. That's essentially $5k/year (make it ~$10k/year if you ignore residency) that I'd be netting from that program. I'm not sure what breadth of jobs would qualify, but $5k/year or even $10k/year is relative peanuts compared to the overall salary figure. I imagine that it would make more sense financially to simply find a higher paying job in a non-qualifying facility than holding out for the PSLF forgiveness.

But as you say, obviously the equation becomes much more favorable if you're one of those people carrying huge debt burdens.

 

[Shikima]

The numbers are there. Assuming you have ample debt. Keep in mind that the first four years of the 10 years can be done in residency, when you're IBR maybe $400 a month.


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If possible, sure. Not all residents are able to and sometimes, depending on specifics, that $400 could mean the difference between bills being paid or not. It is best to make it known to medical students early in their education to prepare for this, especially for non-trad with families.

 

[Baller MD]

I agree. I just did my exit counseling with our financial aid office a month or so ago, and I was actually surprised at how relatively little PSLF would end up paying in the long term. I'll graduate with about $120k of debt, and doing IBR x 10 years using the AAMC's salary figures (flawed though they may be) resulted in roughly $50k being forgiven by PSLF. Mind you, that's a lot of money, but for some reason it was much less than I was expecting. That's essentially $5k/year (make it ~$10k/year if you ignore residency) that I'd be netting from that program. I'm not sure what breadth of jobs would qualify, but $5k/year or even $10k/year is relative peanuts compared to the overall salary figure. I imagine that it would make more sense financially to simply find a higher paying job in a non-qualifying facility than holding out for the PSLF forgiveness.

But as you say, obviously the equation becomes much more favorable if you're one of those people carrying huge debt burdens.

Wouldn't PSLF make more sense if you have a high debt load like 300k-400k? 120k isn't that much in terms of professional school debt.

 

[NickNaylor]

Wouldn't PSLF make more sense if you have a high debt load like 300k-400k? 120k isn't that much in terms of professional school debt.

Definitely, which is what I said. I think the more important point, though, isn't that PSLF isn't the holy grail that I know that I expected it to be. I imagine many will have similar revelations. It's a calculus that needs to be done at some point, and for some PSLF may not actually save any money in the long-term.

 

[notdeadyet]

Definitely, which is what I said. I think the more important point, though, isn't that PSLF isn't the holy grail that I know that I expected it to be. I imagine many will have similar revelations. It's a calculus that needs to be done at some point, and for some PSLF may not actually save any money in the long-term.

I thought you saved $50k with a low relatively low debt burden? In what financial scenario would it not pay for itself?

Just idle curiosity. I'm hope it but not counting on it. There are plenty of other options for help with loan debt.


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[Baller MD]

I thought you saved $50k with a low relatively low debt burden? In what financial scenario would it not pay for itself?

Just idle curiosity. I'm hope it but not counting on it. There are plenty of other options for help with loan debt.


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Like? I only hear about military and VA. Do private practice employment gigs cover students loans to any significant amount?