MSW or Clinical Psychology PhD? HELP!!

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Velvetkiss

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I am a non-traditional older student, who decided to go back to school and follow my dreams. I am working on my BA in Psychology and I am hoping to eventually get a PhD in Clinical Psychology, but given that I am older and I may need to work, I thought about applying and getting a MSW and then appy to a Clinical Psychology PhD program. I have heard that having a Masters can make you less desirable to a PhD program and I am concerned about my age as well going up against younger applicants. That is why I keep thinking of the MSW and then going for the PhD. I would appreciate any advice or tips. I wont have to start applying till the end of next year, but I need to be prepared. Thanks again.

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I am a non-traditional older student, who decided to go back to school and follow my dreams. I am working on my BA in Psychology and I am hoping to eventually get a PhD in Clinical Psychology, but given that I am older and I may need to work, I thought about applying and getting a MSW and then appy to a Clinical Psychology PhD program. I have heard that having a Masters can make you less desirable to a PhD program and I am concerned about my age as well going up against younger applicants. That is why I keep thinking of the MSW and then going for the PhD. I would appreciate any advice or tips. I wont have to start applying till the end of next year, but I need to be prepared. Thanks again.

I in my mid-40's and a "non-traditional" student. Don't worry about the age thing. You can use this to your advantage in terms of your emotional maturity, experience...etc. I don't look my age, but it has not hindered me in any way, save the occasional student thinking I was one of the profs or being called "Dr. Blue" at conferences. It's rather amusing. :cool:

Yes, some might see it as a detriment, but don't worry about them....there will always be someone who wants what you don't have.

Clinical is not my field, but in counseling psych some programs prefer direct admits, while others tend to prefer those with a master's. It seems to depend upon the needs of the program...but you can check the programs you are interested in and see what their stats are like.

As for the MSW degree...why are you looking at that rather than a master's in clinical or experimental? Those programs seem to be a better fit for those seeking to apply to clinical doctoral programs. Research experience is key for these programs, and I'm not so sure you'll get what you need in an MSW program. Others will no doubt chime in and offer you excellent information on that.

No matter what you do, I wish you the best in your adventures,

AB:)

ETA: Applying to one or two master's programs when you are applying to the doctoral programs is not a bad idea...a Plan B so to speak.
 
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If you search this forum (and probably the MA/MSW forum) you will find other discussions on the advantages/disadvantages of MSW/LCSW in relation to PsyD/Phd in the current job market. (You will also find a certain amount of MSW bashing so just take it as what it is: an open forum for a wide array of opinions.)

If your overall goal is a path to doing clinical work in public service (or private practice) the most direct path with the most job options is likely to be an MSW (LCSW). (My opinion...as a PhD)
 
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I am a non-traditional older student, who decided to go back to school and follow my dreams. I am working on my BA in Psychology and I am hoping to eventually get a PhD in Clinical Psychology, but given that I am older and I may need to work, I thought about applying and getting a MSW and then appy to a Clinical Psychology PhD program. I have heard that having a Masters can make you less desirable to a PhD program and I am concerned about my age as well going up against younger applicants. That is why I keep thinking of the MSW and then going for the PhD. I would appreciate any advice or tips. I wont have to start applying till the end of next year, but I need to be prepared. Thanks again.

I am in my late 30s and decided to pursue this as a career change because I realized how fulfilling I find the work. I think that a lot of programs, especially around metropolitan areas, appreciate diversity. My undergraduate degree wasn't in psychology, and after taking enough prerequisites and some MA level psychology courses I was accepted this year at a program I am really interested in, and I am wait-listed at another great school. So, while I went into this process skeptical and worried about the same issues you are worried about, it all turned out alright. I ended up interviewing at four out of the six schools I applied to, and I was only outright rejected by one of the six schools. The fifth one wait-listed me without an interview and eventually rejected me.

An important thing IMO is to get your standardized scores for the GRE General and Subject tests nice and high to compensate for the background differences. Research well what path you want to pursue and build up an appropriate CV for that path (e.g. accrue clinical work, research work, publications, etc.). This website is an excellent resource for researching what prerequisites may be salient for what you are looking to pursue.
 
An MSW is generally considered to be clinically-focused while a PhD will generally be more research-focused. Unless you can demonstrate a strong interest in quantitative work (i.e. posters/publications/research experience), I believe applicants with an MSW will be at a significant disadvantage compared to other applicants with more research experience when applying for Clinical Psychology PhD programs.
 
Thank you all for the great advice. I feel better hearing from some of the other non traditional students and seeing that it isnt necessarily a problem. I guess I felt an MSW would give me the ability to at least work in Mental Health in some capacity, if the PhD track didnt work out for me. My ultimate goal is to hopefully do a combination of Research, Teaching and possibly some counseling. That is why I chose Clinical I felt it had the most diverse education that would give me the opportunity to pursue my interests. Again I appreciate all the helpful advice and I will start researching the forum as has been suggested. I also plan on working very hard to get higher GRE scores as I know that is helpful in the application process and my BA in Psychology that school I am attending does have an emphasis on Clincial for students looking to pursue graduate school after their Bachelors. I did not choose a Master in Psychology because I had heard that it has very limited if no licensing and would be useless in the job market and that an MSW would give me the licensure of LCSW and that would allow me to do some counseling and work in some Mental Health facilitiies. I do not wish to do Social Work as that isnt the area of my passion, but heard it was a good alternative for the counseling part.
 
Thank you all for the great advice. I feel better hearing from some of the other non traditional students and seeing that it isnt necessarily a problem. I guess I felt an MSW would give me the ability to at least work in Mental Health in some capacity, if the PhD track didnt work out for me. My ultimate goal is to hopefully do a combination of Research, Teaching and possibly some counseling. That is why I chose Clinical I felt it had the most diverse education that would give me the opportunity to pursue my interests. Again I appreciate all the helpful advice and I will start researching the forum as has been suggested. I also plan on working very hard to get higher GRE scores as I know that is helpful in the application process and my BA in Psychology that school I am attending does have an emphasis on Clincial for students looking to pursue graduate school after their Bachelors. I did not choose a Master in Psychology because I had heard that it has very limited if no licensing and would be useless in the job market and that an MSW would give me the licensure of LCSW and that would allow me to do some counseling and work in some Mental Health facilitiies. I do not wish to do Social Work as that isnt the area of my passion, but heard it was a good alternative for the counseling part.

Perhaps you might consider getting a Mental Health Counseling degree and then applying to Clinical Psychology Counseling PhD programs along with regular Clinical Psychology PhD and PsyD programs. Then you would still have the backup and you may be better primed for acceptance to at least the Counseling PhD programs. There is of course always a PhD in social work as well.
 
Perhaps you might consider getting a Mental Health Counseling degree and then applying to Clinical Psychology Counseling PhD programs along with regular Clinical Psychology PhD and PsyD programs. Then you would still have the backup and you may be better primed for acceptance to at least the Counseling PhD programs. There is of course always a PhD in social work as well.

Jegg, did you mean Counseling Psychology PhD and Clinical Psychology PhD?

If so, then this is my suggestion as well, with one caveat: If Velvetkiss is interested in normative behavior and social advocacy rather than the more psychopathology focused field of clinical. I suggest the OP decide which populations they would want to work with and then look at the difference in these two subfields.

A master's in mental health counseling could be beneficial in gaining acceptance into a counseling psychology doctoral program, and still provide a nice back-up if you need to go to work. Just ensure you choose the licensure track when looking at programs.

Research experience is still an important aspect of being accepted into the counseling psych doctoral programs along with the GRE, so keep that in mind when planning your schedule and courses.

AB:)
 
If you are not interested in social work, why even get a graduate degree in social work? This has never made much sense to me. It sounds like your interests are a better match for a clinical program, so why not just get your masters in clinical psychology? I am currently finishing an MA program in clinical, and it prepares us for licensure afterwards, the LPC. It may be called something different in different states, I have also heard of the LMHC. Either way, you can find an MA program in clinical that will prepare you for counseling work, and where you will also learn a bit about assessment and research. In my program, I took a full year of intelligence testing and personality assessment, and was placed on a clinical practicum for a year at an academic hospital. I am not sure how common these programs are, but it sounds like a better alternative than an MSW program.
 
I am a non-traditional older student, who decided to go back to school and follow my dreams. I am working on my BA in Psychology and I am hoping to eventually get a PhD in Clinical Psychology, but given that I am older and I may need to work, I thought about applying and getting a MSW and then appy to a Clinical Psychology PhD program. I have heard that having a Masters can make you less desirable to a PhD program and I am concerned about my age as well going up against younger applicants. That is why I keep thinking of the MSW and then going for the PhD. I would appreciate any advice or tips. I wont have to start applying till the end of next year, but I need to be prepared. Thanks again.

Hi Velvetkiss,

PhDs in clinical psychology are extremely difficult to get in to. If you do not have a GRE higher than 1250, GPA of 3.5 or higher, a couple semesters of experience in a high profile professor's lab, and even a publicaiton now, your chances are not very good. Many qualified applicants such as yourself and others are rejected becasue there are so little spots and so many applicants. One has to be exceptional in every way to even be considered for an interview in a PhD clinical program. Getting an MSW vs a PhD/PsyD depends on your career goals.

If your goal is to provide psychotherapy (any theoretical orientation such as CBT, psychodynamic, strict behavioral, etc) and psychotherapy only as an independent practitioner (e.g. you can practice on your own without supervision eventually), then get an MSW. I have an MSW and now am going for a PsyD in a University based PsyD program. Clinical social workers are the highest paid master's level clinicians. I live on the east coast in the American Southeast/Mid Atlantic. Where I am from, only licesned clinical social workers (LICSW) can practice independently. Those with a master's in counseling, marriage and family therapy, or MA in clinical psyc cannot practice independently (e.g. they must always be under supervision of a doctoral level provider). Now this is where I live. Some states have a licensed mental health counselor (LMHC). I am not sure if LMHCs can practice independently or not in the states that have them.

I applied for clinical psychology programs and was rejected from everywhere, so I got an MSW becasue clinical social workers provide therapy as an independent practitioner and make only about $1 less than a licensed psychologist providing therapy. A friend of mine who is a licesed professional counselor (LPC) told me that LICSWs are the top of the food chain for masters level providers. If you decide on an MSW, make sure you pick the right program. Make sure it has adequate training in clinical social work. Do not choose a generalist program, because a generalist pogram makes you take courses in social policy and other crap that have nothing to do with therapy. Make sure that the program provides adequate psychotherapy courses and practicum in psychotherapy. My MSW program was a generalist program and even though I am eligible for licensure as a clinical social worker, the courses were not related to psycotherapy. I got a basic "this is this type of therapy, this is that type, etc) and a breif therapy course. None of my courses transferred into my doc program. So be careful when choosing an MSW program. VCU, University of Michigan, and, Michigan state have clinical social work programs. Also, social work is a politically charged field and they bring politics into the classroom in inappropriate ways (e.g. they are EXTREMELY liberal in social work, making moderates and conservatives feel unable to speak up in class). There is a trade off between psyc and an MSW. Social work views mental health in a very different way than we do in psychology.


If you want to do any kind of testing (e.g. IQ testing, achievement testing, psycholoigcal evaluaitons) in addition to therapy, then a doctorate in psychology is required. West Virginia allows masters level licensure as a licensed psychologist, but WV is the only state that does this. All other states require a doctorate in clinical and sometimes counseling psychology for licesnure and practice.

Determining the type of doctorate to get will depend on your career goals. If you want to do research and teach in a large division 1 research institution (e.g. any large state university such as Ohio State, Penn State etc), then you will need a PhD in clinical psychology, which is extremely difficult to get. If doing research is your goal, then get into a professor's lab and get research expereince ASAP, take a Kaplan class to increase GRE scores, and try to get to know the clinical faculty at your school. PhDs in counseling psychology will also prepare you for research as well as some counseling/therapy practice. They are still pretty competitive, so again, gain research experience, get great GRE scores, and get to know the faculty at your school. You can practice as a clinican with a PhD in clinical psych, but the training is research focused and you will spend much of grad school doing reseach.

If research is not your primary goal and you still want to pursue clinical psych, then an PsyD at a University based program is the best choice for this goal. I am in a Unviersity based PsyD program. PsyD programs train doctoral level clinicians. You still have to take research and statistics classes, but not as many as a PhD program requires. A PsyD will help meet the requirements for licesnure as a psychologist in all states. Be mindful of which PsyD programs to pursue. Look at University based PsyD programs only. There are freestanding schools that act more as diploma mills rather than grad schools (e.g. Argosy). I am not saying that all free standing schools are bad, but they take way too many students (e.g. 100 per class) and some may not properly train students as competent well-informed clinicians. Free standing schools also cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to attend. You will not be able to pay those loans off in a reasonable amount of time. Anyway, University based PsyD programs such as Indiana State U, Marshall U in West Virginia, IUP, Widener, and Immaculata in Pennsylvania, Wright State and Xavier in Ohio, Spalding in Kentucky, Pepperdine in California, Baylor in Texas, and Rutgers in New Jersey are good university based PsyD programs. Some offer funding (hence no extra large loans) and the university support. If you want to work through your doctorate, the Immaculata University PsyD program in Immaculata PA outside of Philidelphia that has mostly night classes and is designed for working people. I have an MSW and I was interviewed and accepted into many of the PsyD programs I applied to. I don't like to think that an MSW will hurt you, but be prepared to explain why you are going back to psychology if you decide to pursue clinical psyc after an MSW. For example, stress the importance of doing testing in your career as a reason for going back to psychology. Only psychologists can do testing. When interviewing at one program, one professor could not get past the MSW. You may have some of that, but for the most part, social work will help diversify your background and give you clinical expereince. I hope this helps your pursuit. If it deos not work out the first time you apply to clinical psyc, try again and keep trying. Good luck!
 
If you are not interested in social work, why even get a graduate degree in social work? This has never made much sense to me. It sounds like your interests are a better match for a clinical program, so why not just get your masters in clinical psychology? I am currently finishing an MA program in clinical, and it prepares us for licensure afterwards, the LPC. It may be called something different in different states, I have also heard of the LMHC. Either way, you can find an MA program in clinical that will prepare you for counseling work, and where you will also learn a bit about assessment and research. In my program, I took a full year of intelligence testing and personality assessment, and was placed on a clinical practicum for a year at an academic hospital. I am not sure how common these programs are, but it sounds like a better alternative than an MSW program.

I'd like to take a shot at this one.
I'm a Clinical Psych PhD Student (4th year, with my masters degree in clinical psych and a little over 1000 hours of experience, ~ 400 of which are doing assessment).
Since I'm a 4th year, in my program I'm funded via an external placement in community mental health. In community mental health, its a heck of a lot easier to be a LCSW/MSW. I dont think we have any LPC's so I cant really comment on that.
-I can only see some medicare/medicaid/uninsured patients on my externship
-LCSW's/MSW's are easier to credential (for reasons no one seems to know) than I am at organization I'm loaned out to.
-Though in the end, I'll make more money, a lot of people dont have 7 years to hang out in academia before collecting a decent pay check. LCSW's and MSW's are in and out type programs. Unsure if they even do a thesis?
-From what I can tell, not many clinical programs (though this seems to NOT be the case with counseling programs) set you up to become an LPC for whatever reason.
 
I'd like to take a shot at this one.
I'm a Clinical Psych PhD Student (4th year, with my masters degree in clinical psych and a little over 1000 hours of experience, ~ 400 of which are doing assessment).
Since I'm a 4th year, in my program I'm funded via an external placement in community mental health. In community mental health, its a heck of a lot easier to be a LCSW/MSW. I dont think we have any LPC's so I cant really comment on that.
-I can only see some medicare/medicaid/uninsured patients on my externship
-LCSW's/MSW's are easier to credential (for reasons no one seems to know) than I am at organization I'm loaned out to.
-Though in the end, I'll make more money, a lot of people dont have 7 years to hang out in academia before collecting a decent pay check. LCSW's and MSW's are in and out type programs. Unsure if they even do a thesis?
-From what I can tell, not many clinical programs (though this seems to NOT be the case with counseling programs) set you up to become an LPC for whatever reason.

It may also depend on the state in which one lives. In my state, there are many LPCs, and all of the job postings for community mental health centers list either LPC or LCSW as the necessary license. Many also hire MA level clinicians that are unlicensed, from either MSW or clinical/counseling psychology programs. Also, LPCs are able to get licensed and practice independently in my state. Unfortunately, it gets very confusing because licensing rules vary from state to state, but that is just my two cents. :)
I am going to be LPC eligible in May, but am going on for my PsyD, so I don't get myself too worried with the details of it.
 
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