My Lawsuit Is Over Now, Time To Vent Thread

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Birdstrike

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It Didn’t Feel Like A “Win”

By Birdstrike M.D.



My kid and I are outside in the front yard blowing bubbles, enjoying the blue skies and 70 degree weather when she says, “Cool Daddy! Look, there’s a police car coming down the street. Oh, cool! I think he’s coming to see us!”

Uh, oh, I think to myself. Despite my kid’s excitement, I know that rarely does anything good come delivered by a policeman. My wife is inside, my one kid is with me and my other is inside, so they’re not coming to give me some tragic news. Or are they? My parents…...my siblings...is everyone okay? Why is a sheriff pulling into my driveway?

I exhale for a minute. Maybe it’s Jim, the officer that lives in the neighborhood, I think to myself. He’'s probably just stopping by to chat or say, “Hi.” As the car rolls closer, squinting to look beyond the window glare I see that it’s not Jim. It’'s an officer I’'ve never seen before. Clearly none of us has done anything to get arrested….

“"Daddy! I wanna go see inside the police car! Daddy, will he give us a ride? Ooh, ooh, can I see his gun? Cool!”" says my kid, jumping up and down with excitement.

"“Let’'s see what he wants,”" I answer.

The driver door opens. A huge officer gets out, in grey uniform, bulletproof vest bulging underneath, with black wrap-around sunglasses, and a toothpick in his mouth.

“"Are you Dr. Bird?”" he asks, as serious as a heart attack.

“"Yes, sir,"” I answer.

“"I got a present for ya,"” he says, as he pulls a thick rolled up stack of paper from under his arm and hands it to me. “"Here’'s your subpoena,"” he says.

“"My what?”" I stammer. “"What’'s this all about?”"

“"You’'re getting…..."” he starts before,

“"Daddy! Daddy! I wanna ride in the police car. I wanna see the lights go on! Yay!”" says my little one.

“…"....sued,”" I finish the sentence for him. (read more)

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Congrats Dr Bird... this is the best possible outcome of the case. Atleast you "won".
 
Thanks for sharing the article. Glad for the outcome. This is one of tne of the reasons I'm interested in doing a PGY3 medical-legal elective and see how we can fix this nonsense.
 
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When this happens we should be able to countersue for pain and suffering. I am sorry this happened to you Bird. Sadly it will probably happen to us all.
 
I am not a doctor YET but I think what you had to go through was extremely unfair (even if you did win). Personally, medical malpractice courts should be completely different from normal courts. The jury should be made up of doctors from your own speciality or a similar one. Not having an all doctor jury is like having a doctor with no training in say, plumbing, decide if a plumber screwed up. The judges should be doctors or at least lawyers with some medical training. Same with the lawyers. Plaintiffs should have to prove that the doctors did something wrong, not the other way around (i.e doctors have to prove that they didn't do anything wrong). Medical malpractice cases should be doctors judging doctors not accountants or plumbers or policemen judging doctors.
 
When this happens we should be able to countersue for pain and suffering. I am sorry this happened to you Bird. Sadly it will probably happen to us all.


I've thought about this for awhile. I wouldn't mind doing it myself; as I don't have "family/children" to worry about. I want the plaintiff's lawyers to get my chart and say: "Hey wait, I heard about this guy. He comes back, with teeth. Better think twice before going forward with this."
 
I've thought about this for awhile. I wouldn't mind doing it myself; as I don't have "family/children" to worry about. I want the plaintiff's lawyers to get my chart and say: "Hey wait, I heard about this guy. He comes back, with teeth. Better think twice before going forward with this."

As have I, but here's the rub: your malpractice policy will not pay for the counter suit. You've got to pay for that out of pocket. It's feasible, but you have to analyze the costs vs. potential benefits. You will end spending more time in depositions, more time meeting with lawyers, time in court and paying for it all. Plus, what are the recoverable damages you are seeking beyond legal fees, pain and suffering? You can do it, but you're not going to score the mega-jackpot award they were trying to nail you for.
 
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As have I, but here's the rub: your malpractice policy will not pay for the counter suit. You've got to pay for that out of pocket. It's feasible, but you have to analyze the costs vs. potential benefits.

I hear you, amigo. I don't have children or a big house to spend my money on, nor will I ever. Might be worth the fight to me.
 
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It Didn’t Feel Like A “Win”

By Birdstrike M.D.



My kid and I are outside in the front yard blowing bubbles, enjoying the blue skies and 70 degree weather when she says, “Cool Daddy! Look, there’s a police car coming down the street. Oh, cool! I think he’s coming to see us!”

Uh, oh, I think to myself. Despite my kid’s excitement, I know that rarely does anything good come delivered by a policeman. My wife is inside, my one kid is with me and my other is inside, so they’re not coming to give me some tragic news. Or are they? My parents….my siblings….is everyone okay? Why is a sheriff pulling into my driveway?

I exhale for a minute. Maybe it’s Jim, the officer that lives in the neighborhood, I think to myself. He’s probably just stopping by to chat or say, “Hi.” As the car rolls closer, squinting to look beyond the window glare I see that it’s not Jim. It’s an officer I’ve never seen before. Clearly none of us has done anything to get arrested….

“Daddy! I wanna go see inside the police car! Daddy, will he give us a ride? Ooh, ooh, can I see his gun? Cool!” says my kid, jumping up and down with excitement.

“Let’s see what he wants,” I answer.

The driver door opens. A huge officer gets out, in grey uniform, bulletproof vest bulging underneath, with black wrap-around sunglasses, and a toothpick in his mouth.

“Are you Dr. Bird?” he asks, as serious as a heart attack.

“Yes, sir,” I answer.

“I got a present for ya,” he says, as he pulls a thick rolled up stack of paper from under his arm and hands it to me. “Here’s your subpoena,” he says.

“My what?” I stammer. “What’s this all about?”

“You’re getting….” he starts before,

“Daddy! Daddy! I wanna ride in the police car. I wanna see the lights go on! Yay!” says my little one.

“…sued,” I finish the sentence for him. (read more)


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A question for you (and any other EM physicians out there): why do you do what you do? Lawsuits don't hit us all equally, EM is constantly competing with Ob/Gyn for the most sued specialty. It's clearly a source of constant anxiety until it happens, at which point it becomes a constant misery. Unlike the Ob/Gyns most EM guys I have met are basically nice, sane, individuals with a reasonable sense of foresight. Why not switch to a primary/urgent care, or at least to a Peds ER, where you help your patients more (statistically) and get sued less? Is the quality of the life/patients/pay in EM just that much better that it's worth constantly having a target on your back?
 
A question for you ... most EM guys I have met are basically nice, sane, individuals with a reasonable sense of foresight. Why not switch to a primary/urgent care, or at least to a Peds ER, where you help your patients more (statistically) and get sued less? Is the quality of the life/patients/pay in EM just that much better that it's worth constantly having a target on your back?

I ask myself this on a daily basis.
 
I've thought about this for awhile. I wouldn't mind doing it myself; as I don't have "family/children" to worry about. I want the plaintiff's lawyers to get my chart and say: "Hey wait, I heard about this guy. He comes back, with teeth. Better think twice before going forward with this."

I'd much rather go after their 'expert' witnesses. I think we should be discrediting them through our respective societies. Deboard them or something like that. If we take care of them, the lawyers won't have anyone to come after us with. The next time they testify, all the defense has to point out is that this guy is known to provide bad/questionable testimony.
 
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I'd much rather go after their 'expert' witnesses. I think we should be discrediting them through our respective societies. Deboard them or something like that. If we take care of them, the lawyers won't have anyone to come after us with. The next time they testify, all the defense has to point out is that this guy is known to provide bad/questionable testimony.

I agree with you. However this has proven to be a tough road to travel. When we work to this end we are playing on the lawyer's turf and, frankly, they are really good at beating us and intimidating us.

The attempts to publicize the really egregious testimony (for example by AAEM) have met with threats of suits for libel and other legal maneuvers. Attempts to reign in expert testimony as medical practice and therefore accountability to medical boards and malpractice have been blocked.

Ultimately we are hobbled by the facts that the lawyers love med mal as an industry and the politicians (who are lawyers) believe that our med mal insurance is a great, unfunded safety net. The public likes the possible jackpots.
 
A question for you (and any other EM physicians out there): why do you do what you do? Lawsuits don't hit us all equally, EM is constantly competing with Ob/Gyn for the most sued specialty. It's clearly a source of constant anxiety until it happens, at which point it becomes a constant misery. Unlike the Ob/Gyns most EM guys I have met are basically nice, sane, individuals with a reasonable sense of foresight. Why not switch to a primary/urgent care, or at least to a Peds ER, where you help your patients more (statistically) and get sued less? Is the quality of the life/patients/pay in EM just that much better that it's worth constantly having a target on your back?

Uhh - have you rotated in primary/urgent care? ;) I need a tube or a line every now and then to keep me sane...
 
I'm interested in hearing what pre-meds, medical students and residents think about this subject. Please post your reaction here. More importantly, please click back on the link in the OP, and jump in to the comments on Whitecoat's call room, which is read by quite a few lawyers.

http://www.epmonthly.com/whitecoat/2013/02/it-didnt-feel-like-a-win/

Go there and respond directly to the lawyers, and tell them what you feel about the subject as a prospective doctor, or doctor in training. Let them know what you think about "the cost of doing business" before you have to do it in court.

Tell them what you think about the fact that you have an 80% chance of having a lawsuit filed against you in your career if in a low-risk specialty, or 100% in choosing a high-risk specialty.

http://mobile.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13681755
 
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Never been sued, but as a former police officer, I've been on the stand more than a few times. It blows having your integrity, abilities and intelligence called into question by buffoons with a law degree. It is insulting, infuriating, demoralizing, and humiliating, all the same time. And even more so when the case that you have prepared so diligently for--studied all the case reports for, all the case law related, watched all the dash cam and audio recordings of the incident, discussed testifying techniques with your supervisor for--gets dismissed because the victim is coerced not to testify, or the complainant reveals that he was making it all up; well, that's just business.

Sorry to hear you got dragged into the circus, glad it got dismissed; but you're right...no one wins. Especially not you.

Take care.
 
Never been sued, but as a former police officer, I've been on the stand more than a few times. It blows having your integrity, abilities and intelligence called into question by buffoons with a law degree. It is insulting, infuriating, demoralizing, and humiliating, all the same time. And even more so when the case that you have prepared so diligently for--studied all the case reports for, all the case law related, watched all the dash cam and audio recordings of the incident, discussed testifying techniques with your supervisor for--gets dismissed because the victim is coerced not to testify, or the complainant reveals that he was making it all up; well, that's just business.

Sorry to hear you got dragged into the circus, glad it got dismissed; but you're right...no one wins. Especially not you.

Take care.

Thanks. As an aside, I greatly respect what Police officers do. As tough as it can be as a physician walking into certain situations, none of it takes as much courage as walking into gun fire. You all deserve a huge raise. Thanks for the work you do (or did).
 
Thanks Bird. It did get exciting, but the wife is definitely happier now that I am out of the business (she'd rather I go to med school than be a copper...:0)

All high intensity professions carry, by default, higher risks (I consider medicine high-intensity). We know this coming into it, but it doesn't mean we have to like it, or rollover and get beat up on. That's why cops have police associations that provide attorneys, and doctors have legal coverage as well (I assume, yes?)
 
http://www.aaem.org/aaemtestimony/cases/2/

tPA ... "it's a cookbook, like making pork roast"

Commentary
In October of 2002, a patient arrived in the ED at York Hospital with symptoms of a stroke, as well as a headache. She was seen and admitted. She was not given tissue plasminogen activator (TPA) because she had told the treating physicians that her symptoms began long enough ago that, by the time her labs and CT results were available, she was outside the three hour time window used to define eligibility for this therapy.

The treating physician and the hospital were sued for failing to give TPA. Please note: The treating physician and the hospital were successfully defended in this malpractice lawsuit.

At trial, Dr. Ira Mehlman testified for the plaintiff that TPA should have been given and that it was the standard of care. In the course of his testimony, Dr. Mehlman made numerous statements that seem inaccurate. The following is a list of the statements made by Dr. Mehlman, with commentary as needed. Page numbers refer to the page in the accompanying transcript. Readers are encouraged to refer to the actual transcript to ensure that no statements are taken out of context.

In many cases, the attorney's question is given, then the witness's answer, followed by commentary. Throughout the testimony, the name of the plaintiff and the treatment date(s) have been removed to maintain patient confidentiality.
Page 41:

Witness states that patients who get TPA, even if they have a bleed, will have a better outcome than those patients who are untreated: "But despite that, the statistics on TPA say that patients who get TPA who are candidates and get it, even if they have a bleed, even if they have the worst complication of bleed in their head, their survival is still better than the untreated group. That's important. Even if they get this thing that people worry about…but even if they get that bleed, they have a greater survival than untreated patients who were candidates for TPA."

Page 42:

Continuing the argument begun on page 41 (above), the witness claims that TPA is the only thing that will prevent a stroke patient from becoming paralyzed. It is important to note that this statement was not in response to a question about alternate treatments or the outcome of a stroke. Rather, the testimony was in response to a question about where in the body bleeding occurs after a patient receives TPA: "…but it's [TPA] the only chance of somebody not being paralyzed for the rest of their life, trapped in their body and a burden on their family in their mind, whether they are or not, but in their mind certainly, and it's the only chance that somebody, a family member would have of being whole or markedly improved."

Page 48:

Question: "And with an ischemic stroke, is that a stroke where a patient could be a candidate for TPA?"

Answer: "Absolutely. It's the standard of care"

Comment: At the time of this writing, and at the time of the testimony, the issue of the use of TPA in strokes is highly controversial, with well know experts coming down on both sides. As such, it simply cannot be claimed that TPA is the standard of care. In making this claim, the witness also ignores numerous articles questioning the wisdom of this therapy as well as statements by numerous professional medical societies, including AAEM, which do not describe this therapy as standard of care. Indeed, the AAEM statement on this issue directly states that TPA is not the standard of care.

Page 50:

The witness is asked "…is there any other medication available in 2002 to treat stroke patients to lessen the effects of the stroke?"

The witness answers "No.'

Comment: This ignores a large body of literature that describes the beneficial effects of aspirin, specialized stroke units and physical and occupational therapy in stroke patients. These treatments have attracted far less controversy than has TPA.

Page 51:

Question: "Doctor, back in October of 2002, if a patient was not a candidate for TPA was there any other medication available to be used in its place?"

Answer: "No. They would be committed to a life of paralysis and dependence."

Comment: The truth is that many stroke patients recover all or part of their function prior to hospital discharge, even without treatment. Claiming that all patients become paralyzed and dependent without TPA is incorrect and misleading. Later, on the same page, the witness again claims that TPA is the only therapy available for treatment of stroke.


Page 55:

Dr. Mehlman states that if the patient had gotten TPA " you wouldn't expect her outcome to be anything other than better than what it was."

Comment: At the time of this writing, there is no basis for this statement. It is a wild exaggeration to claim that all patients receiving TPA improve. Even the NINDS study, which is the most closely analyzed study of the benefits of TPA, shows that many patients either have no demonstrable improvement or get worse.

Page 64:

Questioning has now turned to headaches. Dr. Mehlman discusses intracranial bleeding: "It can make you think of a bleed sometimes. But the headaches that are associated with bleeds are the kind of really severe, knock your socks off kind of headache…They're severe headaches, and typically a bleed again is more likely to be associated with a tremendous level of mental status changes and not focal findings"

Comment: Headaches associated with intracranial bleeding is not necessarily always severe, and in fact smaller subarachnoid bleeds may cause mild or moderately severe headaches. We are unaware of data that supports the contention that intracranial bleeding is usually associated with severe alterations in mental status but not focal neurologic deficits.

Page 65:

Dr Mehlman is asked to describe a subarachnoid hemorrhage. He responds: "Well, a subarachnoid hemorrhage is that space, the subarachnoid space where a bleed occurs, and it's a terrible event. It causes patients to go into a coma readily, and there's a high mortality associated with it.

Comment: Pain, mortality, presence of altered mental status and severity of that alteration are all related to the Hunt and Hess clinical grading system of subarachanoid bleeding. According to Rosen's, only 50% of patients have any sort of altered mental status. Stating that such patients readily go into a coma seems an exaggeration.

One line of defense was that the treating physicians were concerned about a possible subarachnoid hemorrhage. By exaggerating the presentation of this condition, Dr. Mehlman unfairly creates the appearance that there is no way the patient could have had this condition and thus attempts to eliminate this defense.

Page 77:

Comment by Dr. Mehlman "And yeah, TPA is dangerous. So is too much water."

Comment: Hardly an appropriate comparison. By comparing TPA to water, Dr. Mehlman seems to be minimizing the danger of giving TPA, which can be listed as being among the most dangerous drugs available when judged by the frequency and severity of complications.

Page 109:

Dr. Mehlman is questioned about the American Academy of Emergency Medicine's statement about use of TPA in ischemic stroke, as well as the Society for Academic Emergency Medicine's position. He responds by citing the American College of Emergency Physicians: "The American College of Emergency Physicians is the official organ that represents emergency physicians. That's the national official group. There is also societies [sic], and it turns out that the societies that were mentioned are, have taken a position that's contrary to what the joint commission of a hospital accreditation is, the American Heart Association…"

Comment: Of course, ACEP is not "the official organ" of emergency physicians in the United States. The joint commission has no statement about TPA being the standard of care for stroke patients. And, finally, ACEP's statement about TPA also does not define it as the standard of care, but rather states that it may be helpful and that further study is needed, points that Dr. Mehlman concedes on pages 119-121.

Page 125:

On the risks involved in getting TPA: "6 percent increased chance of bleeding, but the mortality is still smaller in the group that's treated, regardless even if they get a complication they still do better."

The claim that a patient with bleeding inside of the brain caused by TPA will do better than a patient without bleeding defies logic. We are not aware of any scientific data supporting this claim.

Page 125:

Question: Are you aware that Genentech, the company that makes the drug, is the one that sponsored the study?"

Answer: "I'm not aware of that. I'm sure they've probably provided the TPA, but I'm not, I'd be surprised if they paid for the entire study."

Comment: Genentech did. Surprise!

Page 126:

Dr. Mehlman denies knowledge of any literature that suggests TPA may not be beneficial. This in spite of original research, editorials and reanalysis all published well before the time of his testimony questioning the wisdom of TPA.
 
I'm interested in hearing what pre-meds, medical students and residents think about this subject. Please post your reaction here. More importantly, please click back on the link in the OP, and jump in to the comments on Whitecoat's call room, which is read by quite a few lawyers.

I'll be starting med school this summer. I have two reactions to the issue of frivolous med mal lawsuits. The first is that this is one of the many reasons I'm planning on spending the majority of my career working for free on a ship in West Africa. It would take a long time to explain the concept of a lawsuit to my future patients there. Even if I carefully explained it, they would still laugh at the idea of suing a doctor who tried to help them, even if he did make a mistake.

My second reaction is that as far as occupational hazards go, this isn't that big a deal. Even if I was a doctor in the worst malpractice climate in the US, I wouldn't have to worry about getting my foot tangled in a coil of rope attached to a falling anchor, like I did when I was commercial fishing. I wouldn't have to worry about climbing thirty feet up a ladder resting on ice, like I did when I was building houses. The financial risk of a lawsuit isn't as great as the financial risk of a fire in the uninsured house I'm trying to flip in my current occupation as a home renovator. Despite slimebag parasite lawyers, declining compensation, drug seeking patients, and every other thing doctors complain about, medicine is still a much better job than anything else I'm qualified to do.
 
My second reaction is that as far as occupational hazards go, this isn't that big a deal. Even if I was a doctor in the worst malpractice climate in the US, I wouldn't have to worry about getting my foot tangled in a coil of rope attached to a falling anchor, like I did when I was commercial fishing. I wouldn't have to worry about climbing thirty feet up a ladder resting on ice, like I did when I was building houses. The financial risk of a lawsuit isn't as great as the financial risk of a fire in the uninsured house I'm trying to flip in my current occupation as a home renovator. Despite slimebag parasite lawyers, declining compensation, drug seeking patients, and every other thing doctors complain about, medicine is still a much better job than anything else I'm qualified to do.

Oh, yes.

Thank you for bringing some much-needed perspective to this discussion.
 
I'm interested in hearing what pre-meds, medical students and residents think about this subject. Please post your reaction here. More importantly, please click back on the link in the OP, and jump in to the comments on Whitecoat's call room, which is read by quite a few lawyers.

Honestly? It's terrifying. I hate the idea of someday viewing every patient as an adversary. I hate the idea of being raked over the coals by d*****bag lawyers. I hate the idea of being at the mercy of a jury of non-medical "peers".

I just really, really hope this never happens to me. But I also know that there is a very, very good chance that it will. I just hope I can come through it with as few emotional/financial/professional scars as possible. Thanks for sharing your experience, and glad it worked out in your favor.
 
Oh, yes.

Thank you for bringing some much-needed perspective to this discussion.

But none of those things in the previous post are on purpose. The ice doesn't mess with your ladder hoping to get rich from doing it. The ocean doesn't get 15% if it knocks you overboard.

No one is saying that our job is the worst thing in the world, but that what can potentially be a soul-crushing experience is because someone wants to hit the proverbial lottery.
 
I'm planning on spending the majority of my career working for free on a ship in West Africa.

:confused:

You will be working for free on a ship in West Africa? Really? Then clearly, you don't have to worry about any of this.
 
My second reaction is that as far as occupational hazards go, this isn't that big a deal. Even if I was a doctor in the worst malpractice climate in the US, I wouldn't have to worry about getting my foot tangled in a coil of rope attached to a falling anchor, like I did when I was commercial fishing. I wouldn't have to worry about climbing thirty feet up a ladder resting on ice, like I did when I was building houses. The financial risk of a lawsuit isn't as great as the financial risk of a fire in the uninsured house I'm trying to flip in my current occupation as a home renovator. Despite slimebag parasite lawyers, declining compensation, drug seeking patients, and every other thing doctors complain about, medicine is still a much better job than anything else I'm qualified to do.


Your implication is that what you've been through is much tougher, it's just whining, and we should be happy getting sued, because, well....other people have it worse. No, I reject that completely. Physicians and particularly Emergency Physicians are far from wimps. Althought I'm sure commercial fishing, construction and renovating homes is very difficult, you'll see, so is being a physician. As a physician, we could get shot by a psychotic patient we are trying to help. We can get sued for a megamillions award that goes beyond our coverage limit, and far beyond the cost of a single uninsured house, depending on the jurisdiction. We can get hep C and AIDS from a needle stick and suffer a fate as bad as your fall off your icy roof. The tremendous stress can take a toll on our health. We are not superhuman. Some of our colleagues have gone down in medical transport helicopters trying to save the lives of injured commercial fisherman, and construction workers that have fallen off roofs. It's not always like lying in a bed of roses in a grassy field watching the clouds go by.

Of cases brought against physicians that go to trial, 90% end up with physicians being found not guilty of malpractice. Yet it costs $100,000 to fight a case and win, on average. To even have the most ridiculous and frivolous case thrown out, costs $22,000.
This is not a defense of the system. It's indicative of abuse, and harrassment. It is it's worst indictment. The attorney's know they are falsely accusing 90% of us (greater if you include those cases dropped then never make it to that stage). That's their whole trump card. These are the cases they are "really sure about" and want to take all the way to the bitter end. They accuse us of certain negligence and dangerous incompetence, put us on trial and drag us through all this, and still lose 90% of the time? WTF!? Yet, despite this, they rarely if ever move to have our licenses revoked to protect the public from our supposed negligence. Why? They're happy to sue us again and again, for not committing malpractice. "Catch and release! Throw the fish back so you can snag him again." They hide behind the "Constitution" and "victims rights," but really it is:

Legalized extortion.

Plus it takes an emotional toll on many people. Malpractice Stress Syndrome affects many very tough people. It is real. It is not diagnostic of "a wimp." It means you care. Most physicians care more about their patients, helping them, and performing at the highest level than they would in relation to an inanimate object or jobs that involve "things." My point is not to pound negativity. It is to share an experience (which was difficult, but I acknowlege could have gone drastically worse) and let people who have had similar experiences know they are not alone. Medical Malpractice Stress Syndrome is a real thing. It doesn't mean someone is a wimp. It means they CARE. Lot's of us have had tough jobs before becoming doctors, and find being a physician as tough or tougher, without having to be put on trial for just for doing it. Being a doctor doesn't have to mean you are an emotionless robot. And it shouldn't mean you have to be a victim of harassment, extortion and abuse for trying to do your job and help people.
 
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I'll be starting med school this summer. I have two reactions to the issue of frivolous med mal lawsuits. The first is that this is one of the many reasons I'm planning on spending the majority of my career working for free on a ship in West Africa. It would take a long time to explain the concept of a lawsuit to my future patients there. Even if I carefully explained it, they would still laugh at the idea of suing a doctor who tried to help them, even if he did make a mistake.

My second reaction is that as far as occupational hazards go, this isn't that big a deal. Even if I was a doctor in the worst malpractice climate in the US, I wouldn't have to worry about getting my foot tangled in a coil of rope attached to a falling anchor, like I did when I was commercial fishing. I wouldn't have to worry about climbing thirty feet up a ladder resting on ice, like I did when I was building houses. The financial risk of a lawsuit isn't as great as the financial risk of a fire in the uninsured house I'm trying to flip in my current occupation as a home renovator. Despite slimebag parasite lawyers, declining compensation, drug seeking patients, and every other thing doctors complain about, medicine is still a much better job than anything else I'm qualified to do.

You need to make it through 4 years of med school before you start offering perspective.

I know I wouldn't have wanted to hear this as a pre-med, but there's a reason it's said a lot. The challenges faced are different, and you haven't faced them yet.

Other advice: Those who do spend a life serving on a ship in Africa (for example, I saw one on 60 minutes last week), don't go around telling people what they are going to do. That's something you share AFTER you've done it (or not at all, honestly those people don't seem like they are clamoring for attention). Likewise, putting medical school/physician challenges in perspective - you do that AFTER you've faced them.

I possibly would have thought like you at one point, but I think once you start to make major sacrifices for years in this process - you can begin to understand the investment and why these people are passionate about these issues.

Your implication is that what you've been through is much tougher, it's just whining, and we should be happy getting sued, because, well....other people have it worse. No, I reject that completely. Physicians and particularly Emergency Physicians are far from wimps. Althought I'm sure commercial fishing, construction and renovating homes is very difficult, you'll see, so is being a physician. As a physician, we could get shot by a psychotic patient we are trying to help. We can get sued for a megamillions award that goes beyond our coverage limit, and far beyond the cost of a single uninsured house, depending on the jurisdiction. We can get hep C and AIDS from a needle stick and suffer a fate as bad as your fall off your icy roof. The tremendous stress can take a toll on our health. We are not superhuman. Some of our colleagues have gone down in medical transport helicopters trying to save the lives of injured commercial fisherman, and construction workers that have fallen off roofs. It's not always like lying in a bed of roses in a grassy field watching the clouds go by.

Of cases brought against physicians that go to trial, 90% end up with physicians being found not guilty of malpractice. Yet it costs $100,000 to fight a case and win, on average. To even have the most ridiculous and frivolous case thrown out, costs $22,000.
This is not a defense of the system. It's indicative of abuse, and harrassment. It is it's worst indictment. The attorney's know they are falsely accusing 90% of us (greater if you include those cases dropped then never make it to that stage). That's their whole trump card. These are the cases they are "really sure about" and want to take all the way to the bitter end. They accuse us of certain negligence and dangerous incompetence, put us on trial and drag us through all this, and still lose 90% of the time? WTF!?

It's extortion.

Plus it takes an emotional toll on many people. Malpractice Stress Syndrome affects many very tough people. It is real. It is not diagnostic of "a wimp." It means you care. Most physicians care more about their patients, helping them, and performing at the highest level than they would in relation to an inanimate object or jobs that involve "things." My point is not to pound negativity. It is to share an experience (which was difficult, but I acknowlege could have gone drastically worse) and let people who have had similar experiences know they are not alone. Medical Malpractice Stress Syndrome is a real thing. It doesn't mean someone is a wimp. It means they CARE. Lot's of us have had tough jobs before becoming doctors, and find being a physician as tough or tougher, without having to be put on trial for just for doing it. Being a doctor doesn't have to mean you are an emotionless robot. And it shouldn't mean you have to be a victim of harassment, extortion and abuse for trying to do your job and help people. Not everyone agrees.

I don't think you need to defend your points.

I understand Chip's "perspective" - because I possibly would have thought like this before medical school. Until you've invested and sacrificed the years in education, emotion, passion and care into your job and your patients - it's hard to have any type of understanding of what you're facing. Even as a medical student, I know I have many years before I can understand what that process must be like - but I know I understand 100x more than I did as a pre-med.

It's nothing that can even be discussed now. No words can change the self-assuredness of a newly accepted medical student.
 
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My second reaction is that as far as occupational hazards go, this isn't that big a deal. Even if I was a doctor in the worst malpractice climate in the US, I wouldn't have to worry about getting my foot tangled in a coil of rope attached to a falling anchor, like I did when I was commercial fishing. I wouldn't have to worry about climbing thirty feet up a ladder resting on ice, like I did when I was building houses. The financial risk of a lawsuit isn't as great as the financial risk of a fire in the uninsured house I'm trying to flip in my current occupation as a home renovator. Despite slimebag parasite lawyers, declining compensation, drug seeking patients, and every other thing doctors complain about, medicine is still a much better job than anything else I'm qualified to do.

lol....what?

The occupational hazards of medicine can be pretty bad; I asked a nurse the other day to get a CBC/BMP for me.....she was on break for her third lunch....things did not go well.

As for you second thought, the financial risks are much greater with getting sued than with you trying to "flip" your house. They had a case a few months back where an OBgyn was sued for 40 million dollars. If you're "flipping" houses that expensive, I would advise you not to go into medicine.
 
We better stop trashing on lawyers... they'll sue us for libel :-D
 
Yet, despite this, they rarely if ever move to have our licenses revoked to protect the public from our supposed negligence. Why? They're happy to sue us again and again, for not committing malpractice. "Catch and release! Throw the fish back so you can snag him again."

I was talking to a lawyer that used to do med mal, but now does med mal defense (because, as he said, he wanted to be able to sleep at night again). I asked him about moving against licenses, and he said the reason they didn't do that is because the standard that they would need to reach is MUCH higher, so it is a lot more work, without more money.

Who do muggers mug? Low hanging fruit. If you could make $200/hr at urgent care, wouldn't you do it? I sure as HELL would, in a second. Likewise, if they get their money, why should they keep going, if they won't get paid more? Would you? I mean, if it is that egregious, I would think that the state would take that action themselves, instead of a lawyer having to push it.
 
Your implication is that what you've been through is much tougher, it's just whining, and we should be happy getting sued, because, well....other people have it worse. No, I reject that completely. Physicians and particularly Emergency Physicians are far from wimps. Althought I'm sure commercial fishing, construction and renovating homes is very difficult, you'll see, so is being a physician. As a physician, we could get shot by a psychotic patient we are trying to help. We can get sued for a megamillions award that goes beyond our coverage limit, and far beyond the cost of a single uninsured house, depending on the jurisdiction. We can get hep C and AIDS from a needle stick and suffer a fate as bad as your fall off your icy roof. The tremendous stress can take a toll on our health. We are not superhuman. Some of our colleagues have gone down in medical transport helicopters trying to save the lives of injured commercial fisherman, and construction workers that have fallen off roofs. It's not always like lying in a bed of roses in a grassy field watching the clouds go by.

You asked for opinions. I never said that being a doctor was easy, or that getting sued would be fun. I said that the occupational hazard of getting sued was relatively minor compared to the risks of other jobs I've done. If I thought medicine was actually like lying in a bed of roses in a grassy field, I wouldn't want to do it anyhow.

:confused:

You will be working for free on a ship in West Africa? Really? Then clearly, you don't have to worry about any of this.

Um... actually I'll be paying for the privilege of working there. It's tough to explain why. I will be working in the US for a few years to pay off student loans, so I will have to worry about malpractice then.
 
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You need to make it through 4 years of med school before you start offering perspective.

I know I wouldn't have wanted to hear this as a pre-med, but there's a reason it's said a lot. The challenges faced are different, and you haven't faced them yet.

Other advice: Those who do spend a life serving on a ship in Africa (for example, I saw one on 60 minutes last week), don't go around telling people what they are going to do. That's something you share AFTER you've done it (or not at all, honestly those people don't seem like they are clamoring for attention). Likewise, putting medical school/physician challenges in perspective - you do that AFTER you've faced them.

Birdstrike specifically asked for perspective from premeds. Otherwise I wouldn't presume to offer an opinion on med malpractice on an attending forum. I do happen to be older than most newly minted attendings, so I have a little more perspective than the average premed.

The ship you saw on 60 Minutes was the Africa Mercy, my home and workplace for seven months. I would have stayed longer, but I had to go back home to start taking the prereqs for med school. It was fun watching TV and recognizing so many people.
 
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lol....what?

The occupational hazards of medicine can be pretty bad; I asked a nurse the other day to get a CBC/BMP for me.....she was on break for her third lunch....things did not go well.

As for you second thought, the financial risks are much greater with getting sued than with you trying to "flip" your house. They had a case a few months back where an OBgyn was sued for 40 million dollars. If you're "flipping" houses that expensive, I would advise you not to go into medicine.

I suppose I should have said the financial risks are more or less the same. If my house burns down I've lost all my life savings, six months of 80 hour work weeks and I'm essentially down to zero. If I get sued for 40 million I'd be down to zero as well, and I guess I'd either be declaring bankruptcy or fleeing the country. What usually happens to doctors who get sued for millions more than their net worth and malpractice insurance coverage?
 
What usually happens to doctors who get sued for millions more than their net worth and malpractice insurance coverage?

The lawyers end up settling for whatever the physician's malpractice insurance covers.

And a turkey sandwich and a cab voucher...obviously.
 
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is still a much better job than anything else I'm qualified to do.

If you really believe this, you may want to reconsider medical school as you may not have the ability to successfully graduate. As far as perspective, you have none until residency. You then proceed to delude yourself for a few years thinking it will get better. It doesn't.

Sent from my A110 using Tapatalk 2
 
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Just out of curiosity, how many of you would testify against another doctor if he did actually commit malpractice?

In general, for me malpractice involves the intentional delivery of incorrect care. In that circumstance, sure. For lawyers malpractice means anything from this, to delayed diagnosis of a zebra, to a bad outcome despite appropriate care.

Sent from my A110 using Tapatalk 2
 
I was talking to a lawyer that used to do med mal, but now does med mal defense (because, as he said, he wanted to be able to sleep at night again). I asked him about moving against licenses, and he said the reason they didn't do that is because the standard that they would need to reach is MUCH higher, so it is a lot more work, without more money.

Who do muggers mug? Low hanging fruit. If you could make $200/hr at urgent care, wouldn't you do it? I sure as HELL would, in a second. Likewise, if they get their money, why should they keep going, if they won't get paid more? Would you? I mean, if it is that egregious, I would think that the state would take that action themselves, instead of a lawyer having to push it.

We would. We do. We don't get reimbursed extra for a lot of the stuff we do but most of us do it just because we think it's the right way to do it. Extra $$$ for using LET prior to sewing a kid, no. Work notes? Refilling HTN meds for a patient with an ankle sprain? And so on. What about everything that happens under EMTALA? We as a profession do a lot for free. I don't usually drape myself in this flag but I do think we do a lot of "pro bono" work.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you would testify against another doctor if he did actually commit malpractice?

Good question. I really had to think about this. I have to admit I would be very hard pressed to testify against another doctor unless the evidence was very damning. I think the system is so skewed I really can't justify participating in it except under extreme circumstances.
 
We would. We do. We don't get reimbursed extra for a lot of the stuff we do but most of us do it just because we think it's the right way to do it. Extra $$$ for using LET prior to sewing a kid, no. Work notes? Refilling HTN meds for a patient with an ankle sprain? And so on. What about everything that happens under EMTALA? We as a profession do a lot for free. I don't usually drape myself in this flag but I do think we do a lot of "pro bono" work.

Do you get paid by the hour? Do you get paid the same, whether you play "ghetto social worker", or the opposite, saying "Go with god, or go to hell - I don't care as long as you go"? Whether we do the right thing, or nothing, we get paid no more and no less.
 
If you really believe this, you may want to reconsider medical school as you may not have the ability to successfully graduate. As far as perspective, you have none until residency. You then proceed to delude yourself for a few years thinking it will get better. It doesn't.

Sent from my A110 using Tapatalk 2

I'm sure I'm smart enough and hardworking enough for medical school. At least I ought to be, based on my postbac grades and MCAT. The problem is that I'm not qualified for much else. I've got a useless degree in European History and work experience as a fisherman, carpenter, sailor and delivery driver, nothing that I'd really want to make a career of. Lawsuits or not, medicine is still the best option for me.
 
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Do you get paid by the hour? Do you get paid the same, whether you play "ghetto social worker", or the opposite, saying "Go with god, or go to hell - I don't care as long as you go"? Whether we do the right thing, or nothing, we get paid no more and no less.

I do get paid less every time I do something that takes my time but doesn't get reimbursed. I write a dozen work notes a day without any additional reimbursement for it. Lawyers bill for each letter they write.
 
A question for you (and any other EM physicians out there): why do you do what you do? Lawsuits don't hit us all equally, EM is constantly competing with Ob/Gyn for the most sued specialty. It's clearly a source of constant anxiety until it happens, at which point it becomes a constant misery. Unlike the Ob/Gyns most EM guys I have met are basically nice, sane, individuals with a reasonable sense of foresight. Why not switch to a primary/urgent care, or at least to a Peds ER, where you help your patients more (statistically) and get sued less? Is the quality of the life/patients/pay in EM just that much better that it's worth constantly having a target on your back?

This is an oft-repeated myth (partially perpetuated by ACEP). EM is actually in the middle of the pack, right below internal medicine.

http://www.nejm.org/action/showImage?doi=10.1056/NEJMsa1012370&iid=f01

Proportion of Physicians Facing a Malpractice Claim Annually, According to Specialty.
NEJM-Table.jpg
 

What's interesting there, is that although Peds doesn't get sued as often, when they do, it's BIG. The emotional factor is more potent, and the life time of medical bills (economic damages), etc, can add up and go well above non-economic damages caps.

Peds = highest mean award (blue line) = >$500,000 per award. Even greater than the average neurosurg award (~$350,000)

The ones with the lowest salary of all (slide #2).

It's a shame, a crying shame.
 
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You need to make it through 4 years of med school before you start offering perspective. ...

I understand Chip's "perspective" - because I possibly would have thought like this before medical school. Until you've invested and sacrificed the years in education, emotion, passion and care into your job and your patients - it's hard to have any type of understanding of what you're facing.

This can't pass without challenge. It's not correct.

We see this kind of claim being made all the time. In general it takes the form "you have no standing to offer comments, much less criticism, if you have not passed through the gauntlet of experiences that make you an 'insider.'"

In general the exact opposite is often true -- you can't get good perspective from insiders because they're insiders. Perspective -- by definition -- is often best provided by an outsider who hasn't been socialized into the very narrow way of seeing the world shared by insiders (i.e., "groupthink").

Financial professionals on Wall Street make this kind of flawed argument to deflect criticism of their behavior from citizens who don't work in the financial industry. We citizens should discount it appropriately.

I suggest we do the same re: medical malpractice risks. The conversation is improved when relative outsiders who aren't part of the groupthink participate actively. They're no substitute for the detailed knowledge of insiders, but for providing perspective, and as an innoculation against groupthink, they're irreplaceable.
 
What's interesting there, is that although Peds doesn't get sued as often, when they do, it's BIG. The emotional factor is more potent, and the life time of medical bills (economic damages), etc, can add up and go well above non-economic damages caps.

Peds = highest mean award (blue line) = >$500,000 per award. Even greater than the average neurosurg award (~$350,000)

The ones with the lowest salary of all (slide #2).

It's a shame, a crying shame.

So in Peds a malpractice cap is essential, while its pretty low yield for EM. Interesting.
 
"Low Yield" ?

As if there were an "acceptable suit rate" to be measured.

You won't be singing the same song when you get hit with yours, amigo. There is no "yield" when it comes down to personal sanity.

... and yes, I know about the flipside of my argument; "Zero risk! Do ALL the tests, LOLZ!"... but it comes down to "assumption of the risk".

We can't assume it all. All the time.
 
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