My story, my goal. What do you think?

[NotAnOperator]

Hello all,

This is my first post on SDN so I thought I should start off by explaining why I'm a non trad and what my intentions are so as with most non trads, this will be a long story.
So I had a rough high school, both parents out of the picture and moved about 13 times during my junior year and another 8 during senior year while working full time supporting myself. My high school GPA was crap and my SAT score was in the 1700s.
Right after high school I enlisted for 4 years in the Air Force and found myself in special operations a year later. My goals at the time were to do 20 years of spec ops and then collect retirement while doing FBI hostage rescue. Then I messed up my legs and back on a training exercise and found myself reclassed as a medic.
Pissed off initially but after getting my EMT and LPN, I realized I really enjoyed helping people and studying the human body along with the science of medicine. I currently work as an Independent Duty Medical Technjcian in a military ER. I regularly do suturing, staples, NG tubes, chest tubes, OPAs/NPAs, incision & drainage, wound care, splint, IVs, administer meds (PO, IM, IV, etc), go on 911 calls, and deal with traumas and codes. I love this job. I love helping people and fixing the human machine when it breaks.
I've got less than 2 years in the left on active duty so my plan is to use the military's tuition assistance to knock out as many pre reqs as I can while I'm in and then complete my bachelors once I get out via texas national guard tuition assistance and ultimately use my 4 year GI Bill/Montgomery for med school.
I'm fortunate enough to have a wife who is a lawyer so I won't have to work during school (besides 2 weekends per month for the guard) which means academic performance should not be a problem.
I'll be 25-27 when I actually attend med school making me 32-35 when I finish residency and become a practicing physician. Not too old, but not too young. The specialties I'm interested in are ER, ortho, and anesthesia but I'm open to explore and expand my horizon.

This is my plan and goal for the future. Is it realistic? Do I sound like a decent candidate for med school? Is there a better way to do things? Am I missing a factor that would impact this pathway?

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[frosted_flake]

Have you taken any college courses yet? If not, start strong and keep that GPA high. It sounds like you have some awesome life experiences!
High school has no effect on med school admissions, except for getting into college.
Good luck!

 

[NotAnOperator]

Have you taken any college courses yet? If not, start strong and keep that GPA high. It sounds like you have some awesome life experiences!
High school has no effect on med school admissions, except for getting into college.
Good luck!

Haven't started taking any classes yet (trying to find some that'll work with my insane schedule). I do have 4 AP classes I took in high school that I got 4s and 5s on the exams but I don't think that is very relevant. I'm confident I can maintain a competitive GPA in college and my life experience + two dozen recommendations from MDs should help me stand out. Thanks for the advice, really appreciate it.

 

[xffan624]

Hello all,

This is my first post on SDN so I thought I should start off by explaining why I'm a non trad and what my intentions are so as with most non trads, this will be a long story.
So I had a rough high school, both parents out of the picture and moved about 13 times during my junior year and another 8 during senior year while working full time supporting myself. My high school GPA was crap and my SAT score was in the 1700s.
Right after high school I enlisted for 4 years in the Air Force and found myself in special operations a year later. My goals at the time were to do 20 years of spec ops and then collect retirement while doing FBI hostage rescue. Then I messed up my legs and back on a training exercise and found myself reclassed as a medic.
Pissed off initially but after getting my EMT and LPN, I realized I really enjoyed helping people and studying the human body along with the science of medicine. I currently work as an Independent Duty Medical Technjcian in a military ER. I regularly do suturing, staples, NG tubes, chest tubes, OPAs/NPAs, incision & drainage, wound care, splint, IVs, administer meds (PO, IM, IV, etc), go on 911 calls, and deal with traumas and codes. I love this job. I love helping people and fixing the human machine when it breaks.
I've got less than 2 years in the left on active duty so my plan is to use the military's tuition assistance to knock out as many pre reqs as I can while I'm in and then complete my bachelors once I get out via texas national guard tuition assistance and ultimately use my 4 year GI Bill/Montgomery for med school.
I'm fortunate enough to have a wife who is a lawyer so I won't have to work during school (besides 2 weekends per month for the guard) which means academic performance should not be a problem.
I'll be 25-27 when I actually attend med school making me 32-35 when I finish residency and become a practicing physician. Not too old, but not too young. The specialties I'm interested in are ER, ortho, and anesthesia but I'm open to explore and expand my horizon.

This is my plan and goal for the future. Is it realistic? Do I sound like a decent candidate for med school? Is there a better way to do things? Am I missing a factor that would impact this pathway?

Get the grades and a decent MCAT and you're an ADCOM's wet dream. I took a slightly different path (went to college first and then served as an officer in the Army), but I am a fellow veteran in medical school. Used my GI Bill for the first year and switched to Vocational Rehab this year. I would encourage you to look into that program when you get out. All you need is a 20% Service connected disability which if you had to change MOS for an injury, probably will have.

Good luck and continue to plug away while you're still in the service at the prereqs (also take note of the MCAT changes and adjust your prereqs appropriately). A community college is fine for now while you're in the service, but you want to do some time at a 4 year college once you get to show you can handle higher level courses.

 

[threesparrows]

Your plan sounds really good. You mentioned two dozen recommendations above—med schools are only going to read a few rec's from MDs on your behalf, so try to keep in touch with a few of your mentors after you're out so they can speak about you over many years. Also make sure that when you go to college you develop good relationships with your professors, especially in the sciences, because you will need recommendations from them, also. Go to office hours, raise your hand in class, sit in the front, it will help immensely. And try to take classes with the best professors at your school who actually care about students. You can research this on Rate My Professor and other websites.

Good luck and thank you for your service!!

 

[NotAnOperator]

Get the grades and a decent MCAT and you're an ADCOM's wet dream. I took a slightly different path (went to college first and then served as an officer in the Army), but I am a fellow veteran in medical school. Used my GI Bill for the first year and switched to Vocational Rehab this year. I would encourage you to look into that program when you get out. All you need is a 20% Service connected disability which if you had to change MOS for an injury, probably will have.

Good luck and continue to plug away while you're still in the service at the prereqs (also take note of the MCAT changes and adjust your prereqs appropriately). A community college is fine for now while you're in the service, but you want to do some time at a 4 year college once you get to show you can handle higher level courses.

I didn't know about vocational rehab assistance. I'll have to look into that. I can easily get 20% disability if I push for it. Wasn't planning on it since realistically my injury doesn't effect me much anymore when I'm not on jump/dive duty. But it's an option I'll consider.
And yes, my plan is to do community college classes while I'm in and then do a 4 year university once I'm out prior to med school.
Thanks for the advice and for your service.

 

[NotAnOperator]

Your plan sounds really good. You mentioned two dozen recommendations above—med schools are only going to read a few rec's from MDs on your behalf, so try to keep in touch with a few of your mentors after you're out so they can speak about you over many years. Also make sure that when you go to college you develop good relationships with your professors, especially in the sciences, because you will need recommendations from them, also. Go to office hours, raise your hand in class, sit in the front, it will help immensely. And try to take classes with the best professors at your school who actually care about students. You can research this on Rate My Professor and other websites.

Good luck and thank you for your service!!

Makes sense. A few exceptional and personal rec's from MDs trumps dozens of okay rec's. And I'll definitely establish a good relationship with my professors, especially science. I didn't know about the rate my professor website. I'll have to check that out. Thank you very much.

 

[alpinism]

Where are you stationed? Have you completed your 5 levels yet?

I was a AF firefighter/medic a long time ago...

So you have 2 choices at this point. First you could try to finish your CCAF. You can take science classes as part of the gen ed requirements. When that's finished you can enroll in a 4 yr university and transfer some of the credits (essentially what I ended up doing back in the day). With that being said, most highly regarded state and private universities will only accept a portion of your CCAF credits, maybe 1/2 or 3/4 at most, and usually only as electives. Alternatively, you could use tuition assistance and try taking classes off base at a local CC that has a bridge program to a 4 yr university. If needed, you can take classes online, just not pre-reqs (most med schools won't accept them). Id try to take a light course load with easy classes while you're still working since your #1 priority is to get good grades (I can't emphasize this enough - med schools care about GPA first and foremost). Once you're out and have more free time then I'd do the pre-reqs while finishing your bachelors.


Bottom line: Do some research and find out which plan works best for you. At the very least id look into how many credits from a CCAF degree would be transferable to local universities since you should be almost half done at this point.

Here's a good subreddit on the subject of CCAF transferability:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/1llghs/ccaf_transferability/

 

[NotAnOperator]

Where are you stationed? Have you completed your 5 levels yet?

I was a AF firefighter/medic a long time ago...

So you have 2 choices at this point. First you could try to finish your CCAF. You can take science classes as part of the gen ed requirements. When that's finished you can enroll in a 4 yr university and transfer some of the credits (essentially what I ended up doing back in the day). With that being said, most highly regarded state and private universities will only accept a portion of your CCAF credits, maybe 1/2 or 3/4 at most, and usually only as electives. Alternatively, you could use tuition assistance and try taking classes off base at a local CC that has a bridge program to a 4 yr university. If needed, you can take classes online, just not pre-reqs (most med schools won't accept them). Id try to take a light course load with easy classes while you're still working since your #1 priority is to get good grades (I can't emphasize this enough - med schools care about GPA first and foremost). Once you're out and have more free time then I'd do the pre-reqs while finishing your bachelors.


Bottom line: Do some research and find out which plan works best for you. At the very least id look into how many credits from a CCAF degree would be transferable to local universities since you should be almost half done at this point.

Here's a good subreddit on the subject of CCAF transferability:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/1llghs/ccaf_transferability/

I do have my 5 level, not my CCAF yet. I wasn't planning on going for my CCAF because I've heard it's as useful as a GED in the civilian sector. I believe option 2 would be in my best interest just because even though CCAF would be a "degree", courses taken at a legitimate college would probably be more valuable because: 1. Honored much more than CCAF, and 2. Would give me actual experience in real college courses and see where I can keep my GPA. But I will look into transferring my CCAF and see if that's a viable option since I honestly haven't researched that too much. Thank you for the link.

 

[kraskadva]

Makes sense. A few exceptional and personal rec's from MDs trumps dozens of okay rec's. And I'll definitely establish a good relationship with my professors, especially science. I didn't know about the rate my professor website. I'll have to check that out. Thank you very much.

Re: ratemyprofessor.com- it can be useful, but take it with a block of salt. Most of the people writing reviews are 18-21 and many tend to think hard work=punishment. So for a non-trad, and especially a non-trad veteran, one kid's dread professor may end up being your favorite and the one that writes the best LOR for you.
What I've found to be more accurate from there are the comments regarding helpfulness (approachability, availability, etc), grading practices (fair/unfair) and lecture style (dry vs engaging, etc).

Best of luck to you!

 

[gyngyn]

Makes sense. A few exceptional and personal rec's from MDs trumps dozens of okay rec's. And I'll definitely establish a good relationship with my professors, especially science. I didn't know about the rate my professor website. I'll have to check that out. Thank you very much.

You should be aware that though your LOR's are from physicians who have worked with you (and will hopefully carry some weight), most MD letters are pretty much disregarded. For this reason, it's important to have at least least two science profs who know you well enough to write equally strong letters.

 

[operaman]

Wow what an amazing story! I hope you take a little time to read some of the other stories here so you can realize what a great position you're it right now. You don't really have a GPA to speak of (HS doesn't count), so you can go in with dedication and maturity and totally kill your classes and come out looking great. Solid GPA and decent MCAT along with your story should make you competitive anywhere you want to go. I know it's a bit of a long road to be looking down, but time goes by faster as you get older and it doesn't seem so bad. Given your age and your story, you MAY be able to get into med school without finishing your bachelors. It doesn't happen often, but there were a couple in my class who did this for various reasons. May be worth setting up your schedule to knock out pre-reqs and MCAT in 2-3 years and apply to start med school when you would otherwise start your senior year of undergrad. May shave a year off anyhow. Good luck!

 

[alpinism]

I do have my 5 level, not my CCAF yet. I wasn't planning on going for my CCAF because I've heard it's as useful as a GED in the civilian sector. I believe option 2 would be in my best interest just because even though CCAF would be a "degree", courses taken at a legitimate college would probably be more valuable because: 1. Honored much more than CCAF, and 2. Would give me actual experience in real college courses and see where I can keep my GPA. But I will look into transferring my CCAF and see if that's a viable option since I honestly haven't researched that too much. Thank you for the link.

Sounds good. Even if you don't finish the CCAF you should still be able to transfer over a few courses you've already completed.
The hard part about off base universities is just figuring out a way to fit classes into your schedule. Along with finding enough time to study. In any event, night classes might be your best option.

Good Luck.

 

[NotAnOperator]

Wow what an amazing story! I hope you take a little time to read some of the other stories here so you can realize what a great position you're it right now. You don't really have a GPA to speak of (HS doesn't count), so you can go in with dedication and maturity and totally kill your classes and come out looking great. Solid GPA and decent MCAT along with your story should make you competitive anywhere you want to go. I know it's a bit of a long road to be looking down, but time goes by faster as you get older and it doesn't seem so bad. Given your age and your story, you MAY be able to get into med school without finishing your bachelors. It doesn't happen often, but there were a couple in my class who did this for various reasons. May be worth setting up your schedule to knock out pre-reqs and MCAT in 2-3 years and apply to start med school when you would otherwise start your senior year of undergrad. May shave a year off anyhow. Good luck!

I did not know that was an option. How does one go about applying without a 4 year degree? And would I be limited as to which schools I could apply to? I'd be shooting for Texas state med schools (since Texas is where my wife and I would like to spend our life & my vet benefits would keep me virtually debt free). And would not having a 4 year degree impact my chances of landing a competitive residency (orthopod) afterwards? Please do tell more, I'm always looking to save time without sacrificing skill.

 

[NotAnOperator]

You should be aware that though your LOR's are from physicians who have worked with you (and will hopefully carry some weight), most MD letters are pretty much disregarded. For this reason, it's important to have at least least two science profs who know you well enough to write equally strong letters.

I'll definitely go for strong science prof LORs but why are LORs from MDs not valued, even if I've worked with them for 2-3 years and thousands of hours?

 

[gyngyn]

I'll definitely go for strong science prof LORs but why are LORs from MDs not valued, even if I've worked with them for 2-3 years and thousands of hours?

The vast majority (almost all) physician letters are written by docs who have been shadowed by the applicant. By definition, the applicant unobtrusively observed. As expected, these letters are universally glowing, somewhat vague and always useless. The rest of them tend to be from family members (who often don't identify themselves as such!) or colleagues of the applicant's relatives.

It is possible to have a substantive physician letter. They are just so rare that there is a tendency to gloss over all of them. Hopefully, yours will stand out in some way that differentiates them from the expected.

 

[operaman]

I did not know that was an option. How does one go about applying without a 4 year degree? And would I be limited as to which schools I could apply to? I'd be shooting for Texas state med schools (since Texas is where my wife and I would like to spend our life & my vet benefits would keep me virtually debt free). And would not having a 4 year degree impact my chances of landing a competitive residency (orthopod) afterwards? Please do tell more, I'm always looking to save time without sacrificing skill.

Well, it's technically an option but the reality is that 99% of matriculants have the 4 yr degree. For example, I went to UTMB's admission reqs page and found:

"Applicants must complete at least 90 semester hours. Preference is given to those applicants who complete a baccalaureate degree."
http://www.utmb.edu/somstudentaffairs/admissions/admission_requirements.asp

In my own class, the people I know of without undergrad degrees were either pharmacists or pharm students who switched to MD or extenuating circumstances such as yours. I would call prospective schools and ask. My thinking in your position would be this: assuming my app won't get automatically trashed, I would apply to all the texas schools starting summer after sophomore year (yes that soon -- beware the timeline!) and interview during my junior year. If I got accepted, I'd just start the MD; if not, finish my degree while reapplying. Maybe on the second app cycle apply more broadly.

The only thing you're risking is the money involved in the first round of applications. Even if you don't get in the first try, you'll have the benefit of having been through the process once before and your next try will be that much stronger. Many schools will even give feedback on your application after the cycle is over.

I would definitely get on the phone with some real human beings at the schools you're interested in and start a dialog. Again, this person-to-person contact is where we non-trads really shine. You'll see lots of pre-meds in the class threads wondering when the AdCom is meeting next or when the next decisions are going out while the non-trads have already called and gotten the answer from a real person.

Not having an undergraduate degree won't matter one iota to residency PDs. Given your story, if you rock out all your coursework, do well in med school and on your boards and do some solid research/networking in med school, you're a shoe-in to ortho or any other field.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

I did not know that was an option. How does one go about applying without a 4 year degree? And would I be limited as to which schools I could apply to? I'd be shooting for Texas state med schools (since Texas is where my wife and I would like to spend our life & my vet benefits would keep me virtually debt free). And would not having a 4 year degree impact my chances of landing a competitive residency (orthopod) afterwards? Please do tell more, I'm always looking to save time without sacrificing skill.

https://www.tmdsas.com/medical/education_Requirements.html

• Applicants must have completed a minimum of 90 semester hours (or 134 quarter hours) at a regionally accredited US or Canadian college or university.

..........

• Baccalaureate degrees are highly desirable. However, exceptionally mature students without a degree, who have outstanding academic records, superior performance on the respective admissions test and highly desirable personal qualifications may be considered for admission.

 

[NotAnOperator]

Well, it's technically an option but the reality is that 99% of matriculants have the 4 yr degree. For example, I went to UTMB's admission reqs page and found:

"Applicants must complete at least 90 semester hours. Preference is given to those applicants who complete a baccalaureate degree."
http://www.utmb.edu/somstudentaffairs/admissions/admission_requirements.asp

In my own class, the people I know of without undergrad degrees were either pharmacists or pharm students who switched to MD or extenuating circumstances such as yours. I would call prospective schools and ask. My thinking in your position would be this: assuming my app won't get automatically trashed, I would apply to all the texas schools starting summer after sophomore year (yes that soon -- beware the timeline!) and interview during my junior year. If I got accepted, I'd just start the MD; if not, finish my degree while reapplying. Maybe on the second app cycle apply more broadly.

The only thing you're risking is the money involved in the first round of applications. Even if you don't get in the first try, you'll have the benefit of having been through the process once before and your next try will be that much stronger. Many schools will even give feedback on your application after the cycle is over.

I would definitely get on the phone with some real human beings at the schools you're interested in and start a dialog. Again, this person-to-person contact is where we non-trads really shine. You'll see lots of pre-meds in the class threads wondering when the AdCom is meeting next or when the next decisions are going out while the non-trads have already called and gotten the answer from a real person.

Not having an undergraduate degree won't matter one iota to residency PDs. Given your story, if you rock out all your coursework, do well in med school and on your boards and do some solid research/networking in med school, you're a shoe-in to ortho or any other field.

I think applying junior year would be a good idea in my situation. Thank you for this valuable information. You are correct that even though I'd lose some money by applying if I don't get in, the whole application experience would be tremendously beneficial. If I can maintain a very competitive GPA I'll probably do this. What kind of MCAT score do you think would give me a chance without a 4 year degree? 30+? 33+?

 

[operaman]

I think applying junior year would be a good idea in my situation. Thank you for this valuable information. You are correct that even though I'd lose some money by applying if I don't get in, the whole application experience would be tremendously beneficial. If I can maintain a very competitive GPA I'll probably do this. What kind of MCAT score do you think would give me a chance without a 4 year degree? 30+? 33+?

That depends on what your GPA turns out to be. If you can maintain a 4.0, then you don't need as high an MCAT as you would for a 3.6.

I think the best guidance for any particular school would be whatever their average is for accepted students. You may have to call to get this information. Even so, I would probably still apply regardless since you have nothing to lose. MCAT of 30+ with a 4.0 GPA should keep all the doors open for you. Obviously the higher the better, and with solid grades and your story you may even be able to get by with something in the high 20s. Again, the benefit of applying once is that you'll get feedback. If the lack of the BA/BS is what did it, well then that's easy to fix; if it's a low MCAT, then retake and do better.

Truthfully, non-trads like you are fantastic to have in the class and I think adcoms will look favorably on your application assuming your academics are good (not even perfect, just solid). Non-trads - especially the military ones - have great attitudes and are a nice counterbalancing force to have on a team of 24 year olds who have always been in school. Today if you asked me to pick 3 other students in my class to be on my team for anything, 2/3 of them would be non-trads, hands down. The experience and maturity card are huge. They don't erase a low GPA or low MCAT, but they can really make you stand out if the rest of your application is decent.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

The matriculating without a degree part is where the grey area lies. Definitely speak to the admissions staff of different schools, but I don't know if you will get a definitive answer since your situation is the exception and not the norm.

Just as extra info that may be helpful, though I am not entirely sure of what this year's matriculant stats look like, from what I remember from last year, the Texas MD schools all had GPA averages of 3.7+, and all except Tech Paul Foster and maybe Texas A&M (can't quite remember) had 30+ MCAT averages.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, you should count on finishing your BS or BA. The vast majority of your competition will have done so, and not having a BS/BA would put you at a significant disadvantage for med school admissions for no good reason whatsoever. The only exception to this would be if you wanted to look into doing a combined BS/MD, such as that offered by Rice/Baylor.

Second, as others have said, your academic record is important for med school admissions. You do have excellent clinical and life experience, but this does not give you a free pass in terms of having to make the grades and do well on the MCAT. Take your studies as seriously as you take your job, and make it your business to get straight As (or as close to it as possible) in your classes.

Third, you do not want to apply for medical school more than once. It is an expensive, time-consuming, and emotionally exhausting process, especially for those who do not apply with their best possible app and wind up making poor strategic decisions that result in having to re-apply the following year. Being a reapplicant is also a disadvantage at many schools, since you will not have had sufficient time to improve your app in between one app cycle and the next. You should plan to apply when your app is as strong as you can possibly make it, and to apply broadly to a good mix of schools whose missions match your career goals and whose stats are similar to your own. For a TX resident, this will include applying to all of your state schools, including Baylor, as they all heavily prefer in-state residents.

In general, don't be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Medical training is not a road for those who desire instant gratification. You may be tempted by many "short-cuts" along the way, but don't get distracted and start heading down these little dead-end side paths when the path to your goal is straight in front of you.

 

[NotAnOperator]

OP, you should count on finishing your BS or BA. The vast majority of your competition will have done so, and not having a BS/BA would put you at a significant disadvantage for med school admissions for no good reason whatsoever. The only exception to this would be if you wanted to look into doing a combined BS/MD, such as that offered by Rice/Baylor.

Second, as others have said, your academic record is important for med school admissions. You do have excellent clinical and life experience, but this does not give you a free pass in terms of having to make the grades and do well on the MCAT. Take your studies as seriously as you take your job, and make it your business to get straight As (or as close to it as possible) in your classes.

Third, you do not want to apply for medical school more than once. It is an expensive, time-consuming, and emotionally exhausting process, especially for those who do not apply with their best possible app and wind up making poor strategic decisions that result in having to re-apply the following year. Being a reapplicant is also a disadvantage at many schools, since you will not have had sufficient time to improve your app in between one app cycle and the next. You should plan to apply when your app is as strong as you can possibly make it, and to apply broadly to a good mix of schools whose missions match your career goals and whose stats are similar to your own. For a TX resident, this will include applying to all of your state schools, including Baylor, as they all heavily prefer in-state residents.

In general, don't be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Medical training is not a road for those who desire instant gratification. You may be tempted by many "short-cuts" along the way, but don't get distracted and start heading down these little dead-end side paths when the path to your goal is straight in front of you.

I briefly looked into a few BS/MD programs. I'm going to apply to the Baylor/Rice one and I believe UT San Antonio has one as well. These programs seem to be aimed for high school seniors though. Know of any non trads that have been accepted into a BS/MD program?

 

[QofQuimica]

The program at Rice is open to incoming college freshman; I'm not aware of any requirement that applicants be current HS students, though of course most will be since that is the usual demographic applying for college. I'm not familiar with the program at UTSA.

There are also some programs, such as UF's JHMP here in FL, that take applications from current college students, not from incoming freshmen. JHMP is a seven year combined BS/MD, and you would be eligible to apply for it during your sophomore year of college even as a TX resident. If accepted, you would transfer to UF for your junior year, and subsequently enroll in the COM.