Naturopathic Doctors?

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StallionRx

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I had to pick up some weight lifting supplements today from my local nutrition store that has a HUGE supply of natural foods, herbs, homeopathic remedies, etc.

As I'm looking through the aisles I hear someone asking for help and the sales women tells her to hold on as she has to get the doctor as shell be better able to answer her question. This sparks my attention and I decide to hang around to see who this doctor is thats working at the nutrition shop. Out comes a younger girl and they begin discussing the use of some herb for acne.

I notice on the wall they have a list of the staff and two people are listed as NDs, which I learned today is Doctor of Naturopathy.

Does anyone know what kind of education these people have? Are they familiar with all the drug interactions that these herbs may cause with traditional medicine? The 2 NDs that were there did seem friendly and were offering their services free of charge, much like a counseling session in a pharmacy. I just wonder if the public understands that these people are not your traditional "doctors" practicing allopathic medicine.

I over heard another conversation from an elderly woman asking about treatment for her husbands prostate cancer. I didnt hear the whole conversation, but I know the woman walked out with acidophilus. ???
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A tech at my work is currently going to ND school (after being rejected from pharmacy school for several years). It's a 4-year program. Their curriculum is here: http://www.scnm.edu/faculty/curriculum.php (see bottom pdf link). According to that pdf they do have a course in medical biochem and "pharmacy of botanical medicine."

She told me that AZ is one of only two states where NDs can prescribe. :scared:
 
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It seems kinda fishy to me. The have almost as many chiropractors on faculty as MDs, and most of the MDs aren't doing clinical instruction. 2 are Anatomy instructors and 1 is in research. I'd think if they wanted to be taken seriously they'd lose the chiropractors and get some DOs that specialize in OMM.
 
here in NM they have a Doctor of Oriental Medicine - DOM

my neighbor is in a program (and married to a MD) and it seems pretty comprehensive, they do at least a year of therapeutics after pharmacology courses. But they seem to work mostly with chinese herbs.

we learned in pharmacy law that DOMs have prescriptive authority here in NM and I'm not repulsed by the exposure that I've had. Although they are a different thing than these NDs.
 
There have been many posts on the MD forums about ND's. I did some research into it myself. It seems to be along the lines of quackopractory opps I mean chiropractors.
 
By prescribing power...do you mean prescribe herbs? tonics? or "real medication" like oxycontin, antimicrobials, steriods....
 
While there is conflicting data for some homeopathy, most of the people don't know why it works - and least of all the Doctor of Naturopaths. There's a lack of evidence based medicine in whatever they practice. They're trying to gain licensure, which is scary to me because I honestly don't think that they're professionals by any means. A lot of complementary alternative medicine doesn't have any direct safety concerns or drug interactions because they've been approved by the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia Convention of the United States (HPCUS). This nongovernmental organization still answers to the FDA with trials that the drugs have a therapeutic use and are safe (the difference is that homeopathy claims that these drugs diluted to extremely sub-therapeutic doses can have a therapeutic effect), but I don't think the FDA has ever stepped in to meddle in the HPCUS's affairs. All in all, I think that naturopathy/homeopathy does have some legitimacy in alternative medication treatment, but to produce professionals leads me to consider them in the same group as chiropractors - not legitimate doctorates.
 
There's a lot of misinformation here.

First, there is a huge difference between a Doctor of Naturopathy and a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. They are commonly confused because both groups tend to use the "ND" designation, which should not be permitted.

A Doctor of Naturopathy is usually a quack who completed a non-accredited online doctorate with no clinical component.

A Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine is a graduate of a 4-year naturopathic medical school with prerequisites and curriculum comparable to traditional medical schools. They are presently licensed in 14 states, and have varying degrees of prescriptive authority. In Arizona they can prescribe just about anything except schedule II & III. Naturally, they advocate conservative treatments and lifestyle modifications. Given the tendency of many traditional physicians to over-prescribe, I can appreciate such an approach.

I've looked at the curriculum for several of the schools, and it actually looks quite decent. The primary deficiency, as far as I can tell, is that there is no residency requirement, and there are few residencies available for those who want them.

As for evidentiary support, it's true that the studies are lacking. But, who's going to pay for them? Clinical studies cost money, and there aren't many financiers jumping at the opportunity to fund research pertaining to natural therapies. To quote my favorite cartoon, "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." If these people are trained to perform physicals and interpret lab results, and they can effectively motivate diabetic patients to control their blood sugar through diet and exercise, more power to them. Obviously they're not appropriate providers for some situations, but I wouldn't discount them as frauds or pseudo-physicians.
 
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pharmdch said:
There's a lot of misinformation here.

First, there is a huge difference between a Doctor of Naturopathy and a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. They are commonly confused because both groups tend to use the "ND" designation, which should not be permitted.

A Doctor of Naturopathy is usually a quack who completed a non-accredited online doctorate with no clinical component.

A Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine is a graduate of a 4-year naturopathic medical school with prerequisites and curriculum comparable to traditional medical schools. They are presently licensed in 14 states, and have varying degrees of prescriptive authority. In Arizona they can prescribe just about anything except schedule II & III. Naturally, they advocate conservative treatments and lifestyle modifications. Given the tendency of many traditional physicians to over-prescribe, I can appreciate such an approach.

I've looked at the curriculum for several of the schools, and it actually looks quite decent. The primary deficiency, as far as I can tell, is that there is no residency requirement, and there are few residencies available for those who want them.

As for evidentiary support, it's true that the studies are lacking. But, who's going to pay for them? Clinical studies cost money, and there aren't many financiers jumping at the opportunity to fund research pertaining to natural therapies. To quote my favorite cartoon, "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." If these people are trained to perform physicals and interpret lab results, and they can effectively motivate diabetic patients to control their blood sugar through diet and exercise, more power to them. Obviously they're not appropriate providers for some situations, but I wouldn't discount them as frauds or pseudo-physicians.
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That's very interesting! Most research articles on pubmed don't distinguish between Doctor of Naturopathy and Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. Thank you for clearing that up for me. However, I would still contend that just because people take the same courses in title as medical schools does not mean that they are upheld to the same rigors nor do they learn the same skills. Their admissions requirements are far more lax than legitimate professional degrees aftr taking a look at some of the schools such as Bastyr. They still don't have an MD degree nor do they have to take the same boards, though they take some naturopathic equivalent? They refer to themselves as physicians which I think is a bit dangerous. The curricula is expository for a variety of medical fields but one questions the depth and what they actually obtain from each of them and can do for each of them.
 
They can write for ANYTHING in AZ except: psych meds, IV drugs, chemo drugs, and the only CII they can write for is morphine. Everything else is fair game.

http://www.azpharmacy.gov/pdfs/NMDnews.pdf

I went to undergrad with a lady who went to the ND school. She lost her license after getting charted with marijuana possession several times. :laugh: (Irony defined)
 
there is a ND here in town. he is the biggest quack i know. he can not write foe controlled substances like mentioned above. despite that he always tries to write for narcotics. it so tiring on having to call him on literaly every other script because he doesnt dose right ect....
 
vardenafil said:
there is a ND here in town. he is the biggest quack i know. he can not write foe controlled substances like mentioned above. despite that he always tries to write for narcotics. it so tiring on having to call him on literaly every other script because he doesnt dose right ect....
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What's his name, phone number? I'll give this person a call.
 
Regardless of what the degree title says, naturopaths are charlatans and quacks who have no business treating patients. They dont have a ****in clue.

Would you want a 4th year med student setting up his own clinic and misleading everybody with a stupid sign that says Dr. Smith Internal Medicine?

I dont think so.
 
evilolive said:
While there is conflicting data for some homeopathy, most of the people don't know why it works - and least of all the Doctor of Naturopaths. There's a lack of evidence based medicine in whatever they practice. They're trying to gain licensure, which is scary to me because I honestly don't think that they're professionals by any means. A lot of complementary alternative medicine doesn't have any direct safety concerns or drug interactions because they've been approved by the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia Convention of the United States (HPCUS). This nongovernmental organization still answers to the FDA with trials that the drugs have a therapeutic use and are safe (the difference is that homeopathy claims that these drugs diluted to extremely sub-therapeutic doses can have a therapeutic effect), but I don't think the FDA has ever stepped in to meddle in the HPCUS's affairs. All in all, I think that naturopathy/homeopathy does have some legitimacy in alternative medication treatment, but to produce professionals leads me to consider them in the same group as chiropractors - not legitimate doctorates.
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Disclaimer: I am not a Naturopathic Doctor, nor do I have any personal interest in supporting the profession. I simply would like to clarify a few points to hopefully dispel some ignorance on this site.

1. NDs are licensed in 14 states and Washington DC.
2. Their scope of practice varies by state. In some, they have full prescription, minor surgery, and diagnosis ability. In others, they can merely order labs, diagnose, prescribe herbs and supplements, and offer lifestyle counseling and NMT (Naturopathic Manipulation Technique).
3. In those states, they are required to attend an accredited 4-year, 4100 hour (at least) graduate (ND) program, with a "built-in residency."
4. The first two years of these programs is startlingly similar to the first two years of MD/DO school. (ie, entirely western science lecture/lab-based taught by PhDs and NDs)
5. The final two years introduce clinical rotations and more "alternative" modalities such as herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and NMT.
6. At the end of two years, Naturopathic students take their first board exams (western science, quite similar to the USMLE). At the end of three years they take their "Clinic Entrance Exam," and at the end of four they take their comprehensive licensing exam.
7. A list of OPTIONAL post-grad accredited residencies can be found at the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians website.

Furthermore, there seems to a lot of similarities between the allopathic/osteopathic route and the naturopathic route (specifically that they all rely heavily on a foundation of western lab science curricula). ND training deviates upon the addition of alternative western modalities during later training (very similar to the way OMT is incorporated into the DO curricula in lieu of whatever allopathic classes MDs are taking instead). Contrary to popular belief, although many ND schools also have acupuncture programs, in order for NDs to study and preform acupuncture, they must enroll in an additional dual degree program that leads to an L.Ac. ("license in acupuncture").

The reason for discrimination against NDs seems very similar to the (declining) discrimination against DOs by MDs: the average MCAT scores of ND students are slightly lower, on average, than DO students. (Likewise, DO MCATS tend to be slightly lower than MD scores, on average.) This fact, combined with the Naturopathic inclusion of "alternative and complementary medicines" into their required course of training gives them an unfair, in my opinion, label as inferior physicians.

Now, there is one MAJOR difference: clinical training. NDs are only required to see a minimum of 350-400 patients (as primary attendings) during their clinical year and are not required to complete a post-grad residency for licensure. MDs and DOs see almost this many patients in a week during their training and are required to complete 3 years of 80 hour weeks before licensure becomes a reality. MAJOR difference. From what I understand, ND residencies are becoming more common, with time, and there may be a time when NDs occupy the same residencies as DOs and MDs.

The sad thing for me is that 36 states refuse to license naturopaths. Given the lapse in clinical education, perhaps "primary care" status is not appropriate. But, after 4 years of rigorous study, NDs ought to be able to practice what they've learned in order to give the people a choice. In states where NDs are primary care physicians, the malpractice rate is no higher than in states without NDs. Therefore, if they stay in business, they must be doing some good and ought to be given a chance, like Physical Therapists, Nutritionists, Massage Therapists, Nurses, and Chiropractors, to practice a safe alternative to what's currently offered as primary care.

Just thoughts...
 
DrEastWest said:
Disclaimer: I am not a Naturopathic Doctor, nor do I have any personal interest in supporting the profession. I simply would like to clarify a few points to hopefully dispel some ignorance on this site.
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Riiiight... Sure you aren't. You dug up a 3 year old thread to spew your ND talking points.

This is what happens when everyone and their mother is a "doctor" and why we used to have quack laws.
 
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womp said:
Riiiight... Sure you aren't. You dug up a 3 year old thread to spew your ND talking points.

This is what happens when everyone and their mother is a "doctor" and why we used to have quack laws.
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You can insult me, if you like, but the proof is in the pudding. What I wrote above is fact, and I felt the need to post it a few different places when I saw this information lacking from the discussion.
 
Anyone recommending and/or prescribing a homeopathic remedy is a ***** and should not have the right to be giving healthcare to a patient.

What's the difference between a glass of water and a homeopathic remedy? The remedy is probably purer water than the glass-full.
 
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apteryx said:
Anyone recommending and/or prescribing a homeopathic remedy is a ***** and should not have the right to be giving healthcare to a patient.

What's the difference between a glass of water and a homeopathic remedy? The remedy is probably purer water than the glass-full.
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Blunt are we? :laugh:

I however do agree with your assertions and do not believe that NDs should have prescriptive authority despite the fact that some states recognize their authority as such.

There's patients the come up all the time bringing a homeopathic remedy and asking what 10X means, lol. It means that its been diluted 10^10 times = almost all water for $18.99.
 
Homeopathic emergency dept (Accident & Injury in British parlance):

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0[/YOUTUBE]
 
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Pharmavixen said:
Homeopathic emergency dept (Accident & Injury in British parlance):

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0[/YOUTUBE]
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lmao, that was great. loved the ending.
 
given that a lot of conventional meds dont work and/or do more harm than good, who the hell are we to disparage homeopathic medicine?
 
sanrevelle said:
given that a lot of conventional meds dont work and/or do more harm than good, who the hell are we to disparage homeopathic medicine?
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Because true homeopathy relies on two ridiculous concepts:

1. "Water memory", in that by shaking a container of whatever ingredient in a volume of water, the water molecules will take on the "properties" of that ingredient, and

2. The more diluted a solution, the more powerful it is. forsrs. Now, you may see some products diluted to something like 2x (like I think Zicam is?), but they aren't "truly effective" homeopathic remedies, and are closer to a modern medication, only with the nifty selling point of "HOMEOPATHIC!"

There you have it. Homeopathy is the horrible mish-mash of natural medicine with ~A.D. 1900 snake oil salesman. Concepts completely defied by modern science and only believed by the ignorant and/or desperate. You can't make a whole generalization like that about modern medicine now can you?
 
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sanrevelle said:
given that a lot of conventional meds dont work and/or do more harm than good, who the hell are we to disparage homeopathic medicine?
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I will not give you that. Do more harm than good? Absolutely not.

apteryx said:
Because true homeopathy relies on two ridiculous concepts:

1. "Water memory", in that by shaking a container of whatever ingredient in a volume of water, the water molecules will take on the "properties" of that ingredient, and

2. The more diluted a solution, the more powerful it is. forsrs. Now, you may see some products diluted to something like 2x (like I think Zicam is?), but they aren't "truly effective" homeopathic remedies, and are closer to a modern medication, only with the nifty selling point of "HOMEOPATHIC!"

There you have it. Homeopathy is the horrible mish-mash of natural medicine with ~A.D. 1900 snake oil salesman. Concepts completely defied by modern science and only believed by the ignorant and/or desperate. You can't make a whole generalization like that about modern medicine now can you?
Click to expand...

:thumbup:
 
I've been treated by a couple different naturopaths in the last 10 years. I've developed a lot of insight on the field of naturopathy. I was actually even considering attending naturopath school (I visited 3 of them) before I went to pharmacy school.

1. Naturopaths can be pretty helpful for conditions that are not always well-treated by Western Medicine. These would be things like chronic skin conditions, GI conditions, fatigue problems, chronic immunity problems, some types of anxiety, insomnia, and some types of depression.

Naturopaths tend to look at look at lot of underlying factors that could increase inflammation like poor diet, hidden food allergies, subclinical infections, parasites, etc.

2. Although Naturopaths are trained in Western diagnosis and lab values many choose to use alternative forms of diagnosis to supplement their findings. Most of these are unproven and some wreak of quackery. Many naturopaths only use these alternative forms of diagnosis such as applied kinesiology, electrodermal screening, pulse diagnosis, iridology, and other forms of non-traditional physical assessment.

3. Many naturopaths jump to pseudo-scientific explanations for illness before analyzing what the real cause is. Some popular ones they like to use: candida, Lyme's disease, food allergy, addrenal gland fatigue, and subclinical hypo-thyroidism. There are many more: if you look at their journals like the 'Townsend Letter' you will see what I am talking about.

4. Many naturopaths are 'lovers of the earth,' or hippies as we call them. Drugs, vaccines, fluoridation, pesticides, and non-organic are usually not recommended in the naturopathic tradition.

5. Many of the treatments used by naturopaths are far from proven. Homeopathic was mentioned, but there are many other treatments used such as Bach flower remedies, tissue cell salts, ayurvedic formulas, bio-identical hormone replacement, high-dose vitamin therapy, etc.

6. That said, I have tried naturopathic therapay and found it beneficial. The placebo effect is a wonderful thing. I've dealt with a couple chronic issues and there just isn't much in Western Medicine for me to use other than steroids and antibiotics. The naturopathic approach has definitely helped in certain regards. If get a sinus infection or another malady, I generally try to use a conservative approach 1st.

That said, many of the most effective things I've tried can easily be studied and applied by a pharmacist. A could knowledge of biochemistry and nutrition is one of the biggest tools in the toolkit of naturopath.

7. I've never had any relief from homeopathy, but here are some of the things that I've found to helpful:

Fasting (this can be incredibly powerful-- I think Western Medicine should research it more because there are a few studies that it can dramatically improve hypertension, CHF, Type II diabetes, and obesity). I've visited a facility in California that regularly reverses Type II diabetes and gets extremely hypertensive patients back to normal without having to resort to medications. More of his kind of research is desperately needed if we want to get our health care costs back under control

GLA and EPA supplements-- There is some literature that many humans have defective enzymes in creating these essential fatty acids. I'm probably one of them and these have helped.

Vitamin D supplementation. The literature is coming out in droves right now.

Mineral supplemention-- Look at the literature and the decline in minerals in our soil over the last 100 years. Mineral deficiency is a very common problem (iron, magnesium, zinc, etc.)

Bioflavanoids-- Berries are a good source. I try to put these in a smoothie everyday. There is some literature that suggests that non-organic farming and long-periods of time from the harvest to the plate have decreased bioflavanoids

Probiotics--There is a growing database on the value of probiotics. I think we will continue to see some more patents and drug development involving probiotics, especially considering that the human body is only 1/10 human cells. A couple of the PhD students in my class are doing extensive work on probiotics right now.

There are many more remedies I could talk about, but I have an exam in about an hour. As pharmacy students we often become close-minded to all the possibilities out there. Unfortunately it can be hard to get the grant money to study all these things. I think some of the principles of naturopathic medicine can be very helpful when stripped of much of the pseudo-science. But when you strip all the pseudo-science out of naturopthy we can apply most of these therapies using our own knowledge we have learned from pharmacy school.
 
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Pretty Neviah said:
There are courses for specialisation in naturopathy and usually naturopathy is the best option for allergies, hormonal issues and diabetes. Naturopathy is simply a combination of diet, exercise and identifying which food items trigger problems and avoiding them and including certain others.
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One post on this entire forum, and it's a necrobump to shill for scammers that specialize in wallet surgery? Smh...
 
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It blows my mind that these "practitioners" can prescribe medication.
 
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Naturopaths are f@#king idiots. But don't lie to yourselves.

The initials ND looks cooler than having the initials Pharm.D. after your name.
 
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There are very good naturopaths out there. There are quacks, too. I think a lot of it depends on which program they go through, and their philosophy on western medicine.
 
IM/SC B12 and nystatin for everyone!! If you didn't know, you're severely B12 deficient (and oral doses won't do...) and INFESTED with Candida from the tip of your nose to your anus. I've had a couple people ask me to order nystatin powder for them to snort. Ay caramba.

Feeling a little run down around 2PM? That's because you have adrenal fatigue and need a lil dose of hydrocortisone as a pick me up.

Also, armour thyroid and DYI boric acid vaginal suppositories.

I think I could be an ND.
 
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