Navigating the 2012 Post Doc Apocalypse/App Cycle

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ForensicNeuro

Intern
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
37
Reaction score
0
Hey Everyone,
I'm a long time lurker, but this is my first post. I'll be applying to post doc in the fall and winter of this year (It seems like only yesterday I was engaging in hand to hand combat to get an APA internship)! I hear the post doc process makes the APPIC internship match look like hugs and rainbows (especially for the NYC/NJ area) so I'm trying to be proactive. I'm having a hard time with my statements of interest/intent. I'm not 100% sure of what is suppose to be included or the format (cover letter style?). They seem very different from the APPIC internship essays and our grad school statements of purpose from way back when. I looked for a book similar to the one for the internship app. process with sample essays, but I couldn't find one! If anyone has any tips, advice, or suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated! Cheers!

(I hope this becomes a regular thread like the APPIC Internship 2011 one...that got me through some rough times!) :)

Members don't see this ad.
 
I too would like some information regarding the specifics of this process. My applications will be to APPCN (the neuropsychology match) programs and selected neuro postdocs which don't participate in the APPCN match.

To the OP, your name would suggest to me that you may be applying for neuro postdocs as well?
 
Some neuro, some peds with heavy testing, one or two forensic, and a couple of safeties. I heard that it is such a small and competitive pool for post-docs (especially neuro and even more so pediatric neuro) so applying to all neuro positions was not the way to go. Maybe someone has some more info. If I can't get a formal position, don't want to be stuck pulling together some type of informal work experience situation to get licensed!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I too would like some information regarding the specifics of this process. My applications will be to APPCN (the neuropsychology match) programs and selected neuro postdocs which don't participate in the APPCN match.

The APPCN website does a decent job of cover 90% of the information. Read through their descriptions and FAQ section, and you should have a decent idea of what is going on. With that being said, there have been a couple of subtle changes to the APPCN match process in the last year or two that are worth noting. There have been more sites that have chosen to withdraw from the match system, which has put more pressure on match participants to have to choose between a pre-match offer or roll the dice and hope to get match. This isn't anything new per se, though some of the longest standing fellowships like Johns Hopkins (Psychiatry and Behavioral Science) and UCLA are now "free agents". APPCN has attempted to address the pre-match offer bind by establishing "response to preemptive offer" guidelines.

(copied from APPCN's site)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response to preemptive offers: Prior to the Rank Order List Deadline, an applicant who receives an offer from a program not participating in the Match (i.e., a "preemptive offer") may contact a program participating in the Match and inform the program of the offer. The program may then provide additional, limited feedback to the applicant, as follows:

First, the following two conditions must be satisfied:
The program has been informed by the applicant prior to the Rank Order List Deadline that the applicant has received a preemptive offer from a program not participating in the Match, AND The program will be ranking the applicant high enough to be guaranteed a match (e.g., ranked first if the program has one position to fill, ranked in the top three if the program has three positions to fill).

If the two conditions above are satisfied, the program may then provide the following response to the applicant:

"We will rank you high enough to match with our program. You may match with another program if you rank that program higher, but if you rank us first, you will be guaranteed to match with us."

If a training site offers more than one track in the APPCN Match for which it submits separate Rank Order Lists, the site must specify in the response the track(s) to which the response applies.

Responses to applicants provided pursuant to this Policy 4e should be provided to the applicant in writing (e.g., by e-mail).

Programs that choose to provide this feedback in response to preemptive offers must submit Rank Order Lists for the Match that are consistent with any and all feedback provided to applicants in response to preemptive offers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So uhm....there's that.

To muddy the water further, there are a number of fellowships offered through division 22 that have strong neuropsychology components that may attract a portion of the APPCN application pool. Traditionally the top rehabilitation programs like to secure their people BEFORE the APPCN match deadline, so interviews happen much earlier than other division 22 fellowships to avoid losing out on APPCN match applicants. This past year the APPCN match deadline was moved up to a few days after INS, instead of a couple of weeks after INS, which gave less time to applicants to interview elsewhere. So while an applicant can still have an offer letter in hand, the timeframe for interviewing and hearing back from non-match sites shrunk.

Some neuro, some peds with heavy testing, one or two forensic, and a couple of safeties. I heard that it is such a small and competitive pool for post-docs (especially neuro and even more so pediatric neuro) so applying to all neuro positions was not the way to go. Maybe someone has some more info. If I can't get a formal position, don't want to be stuck pulling together some type of informal work experience situation to get licensed!

There are far fewer peds neuro positions, though I'm not sure if statistically they are harder to match to each year. The good news is that if you do secure a peds neuro position, you'll be in great shape for a job afterwards. INS has a "job board" every year, and this past year probably 2/3 of the jobs were peds neuro.

The overall match rate was 53% last year, so I'd definitely encourage applicants to cast a wide net. A formal post-doc is far preferred to an informal one. I'd strongly suggest that you leverage any contacts you (or your mentor) have at fellowship sites because the competition is fierce.

Sorry if that isn't a rosey picture...but it is best to know what you are up against so you can prepare for it. I found the fellowship application process to be more stressful than internship because there were far fewer sites and far more quality applicants for each site.
 
I found the fellowship application process to be more stressful than internship because there were far fewer sites and far more quality applicants for each site.

Hmmm....up until this point I felt like securing a formal 2 yr NP postdoc would be less stressful than securing an internship -and this is even considering historical match rate data from APPCN.

My thought process here is based on my understanding is that most NP postdocs will prefer someone with a tracked neuro internship (I matched to one) and that the APPCN match stats are so bad b/c they're getting plenty of apps from people without such an internship -or with even less NP experience. In addition, there are many formal NP postdocs which don't participate in APPCN and I've seen that some even offer positions after the match. Am I ill-informed here? Can I really cast a broad net if my aspirations are ABCN certification??
 
Hmmm....up until this point I felt like securing a formal 2 yr NP postdoc would be less stressful than securing an internship -and this is even considering historical match rate data from APPCN.

It is a different kind of stress, as the interviews are much more about selling the site to you. I felt like I had a much better idea of what I wanted and how I'd fit at each site, which was something I had a harder time deciphering on the internship interview trail.

My thought process here is based on my understanding is that most NP postdocs will prefer someone with a tracked neuro internship (I matched to one) and that the APPCN match stats are so bad b/c they're getting plenty of apps from people without such an internship -or with even less NP experience. In addition, there are many formal NP postdocs which don't participate in APPCN and I've seen that some even offer positions after the match. Am I ill-informed here? Can I really cast a broad net if my aspirations are ABCN certification??

You'll definitely have an advantage coming from a tracked neuro internship....not because you'll be that much better trained, but the folks who land those spots tend to already have a solid CV.

As for casting a wide net...there are many quality NP sites that aren't in the match, but you'll want to run your site list by your mentor. Some sites have better reputations than others, though most people are fine with getting something. You should probably interview at every site you get offered an interview, even if it feels daunting. Since 98% of the interviews occur at INS (including many non-APPCN sites), it really isn't that bad.
 
Thanks for the help with all this!

It is a different kind of stress, as the interviews are much more about selling the site to you. I felt like I had a much better idea of what I wanted and how I'd fit at each site, which was something I had a harder time deciphering on the internship interview trail

Ok. So just to be clear here, you are saying that postdoc interviews are much more about selling the site than internship interviews? If so, then I had an odd experience as all my internship interviews seemed to be about selling the site. I was asked very very few substantive questions....
 
Ok. So just to be clear here, you are saying that postdoc interviews are much more about selling the site than internship interviews? If so, then I had an odd experience as all my internship interviews seemed to be about selling the site. I was asked very very few substantive questions....

I'm in the same boat as you, it seems (entering internship, preparing for the post-doc application cycle), so I don't have any direct personal experience. But based solely on the fact that many sites seem to cover at least some of the costs of the post-doc interview process (transportation, hotel, dinner, etc.), I did get the feeling that the applicants at least come across as being seen as a bit more of a commodity.

I also second your thanks; please keep all the great information coming. The post-doc app process is definitely less-standardized, and therefore much more daunting, than that for internship. One potential advantage is that geographic factors may play a larger role, which can help some of us narrow our site lists down a bit.

Also, does anyone know if APPCN sites ever extend offers prior to the application cycle/formal deadline? My internship site is an APPCN participant, and while I plan on applying through the portal because there are probably a half dozen other sites in there I'm also interested in, I wasn't sure if the possibility of such an early offer was something I could at all potentially look forward to. I'm guessing there's some stipulation preventing them from doing so, but it never hurts to ask.
 
I really appreciate all the advice! It is really comforting to know that students are more of a commodity for post-doc. The way students were treated during the internship cycle this year was terrible.

Also, I was wondering if a site offers three positions with each a slightly different focus, I would love to be considered for all three slots. Is there a way to convey this without looking unfocused (I really just love the facility and would take anything there!) or would I be shooting myself in the foot. Would I have a better chance of applying to only one of the positions?...I used this strategy for the internship match this year and I'm convinced this is how I matched to a great APA site (feedback also supported this).
 
Ok. So just to be clear here, you are saying that postdoc interviews are much more about selling the site than internship interviews? If so, then I had an odd experience as all my internship interviews seemed to be about selling the site. I was asked very very few substantive questions....

It can really vary by site and by the culture of the site. I interviewed at academic medical centers, a handful of competitive VAs, and a couple of consortiums...and I felt like they asked a lot more questions about my background and experience, and shared the types of opportunities they offered. On my fellowship interviews they asked some questions here or there about my background, but they were much more focused on what I wanted and what they could offer me. Many people say that the fellowship process is much more CV focused, so the interview becomes the site selling themselves to you because they have a pretty good idea of what you bring to the table.

But based solely on the fact that many sites seem to cover at least some of the costs of the post-doc interview process (transportation, hotel, dinner, etc.), I did get the feeling that the applicants at least come across as being seen as a bit more of a commodity.

One of the advantages of doing the majority of interviews at INS is the cost savings to programs and applicants. I had a couple of interviews outside of INS, and the majority of the travel expenses were covered, which was a wonderful change from the internship process.

Also, does anyone know if APPCN sites ever extend offers prior to the application cycle/formal deadline? My internship site is an APPCN participant, and while I plan on applying through the portal because there are probably a half dozen other sites in there I'm also interested in, I wasn't sure if the possibility of such an early offer was something I could at all potentially look forward to. I'm guessing there's some stipulation preventing them from doing so, but it never hurts to ask.

If the site participates in the match, they are not allowed to make a pre-emptive offer outside of the match process. Pretty much all of the same "match rules" from the internship match apply to the APPCN match. A site can make a pre-emptive offer if they do not participate in the match. They can also tell you that you are their top choice, you can try and negotiate your benefits package, etc.

Also, I was wondering if a site offers three positions with each a slightly different focus, I would love to be considered for all three slots. Is there a way to convey this without looking unfocused (I really just love the facility and would take anything there!) or would I be shooting myself in the foot. Would I have a better chance of applying to only one of the positions?...I used this strategy for the internship match this year and I'm convinced this is how I matched to a great APA site (feedback also supported this).

If all of the slots are Adult or Peds, then I don't think it would be a big deal. If the slots are Adult, Peds, and Geriatric....then that may be a harder sell. Maybe you can do Adult and Geriatric, but it's hard to sell Peds with that. There are a handful of sites that offer significant experiences in both Adult and Peds, so maybe you have a shot, but it can be a bit dicier.
 
Quick question: How much should our post-doc statements of purpose/intent mirror those APPIC essays we had to write (language, content, etc.)? Also, I've had several sites specially ask for a statement of purpose, 3 letters of rec, transcripts, etc. but no mention of a cover letter. Do I send one anyway or is the statement of purpose suppose to fill that role? Others sites will specially say cover letter, 3 recs, trans, etc. Thanks.
 
Quick question: How much should our post-doc statements of purpose/intent mirror those APPIC essays we had to write (language, content, etc.)? Also, I've had several sites specially ask for a statement of purpose, 3 letters of rec, transcripts, etc. but no mention of a cover letter. Do I send one anyway or is the statement of purpose suppose to fill that role? Others sites will specially say cover letter, 3 recs, trans, etc. Thanks.

The best piece of advice I got was that I needed to rewrite my statement of purpose to reflect more who I was and what I knew and could offer the site, vs. internship statements wherein I discussed what I planned to learn at their site. Talk of course about how you fit, but taylor the essay to talk about your strengths.

With this advice I got interviews everywhere except one place I applied (and they turned out not to have the track I applied for available), and I was told by more than one interviewer that my essay was one of the top they read.
 
Quick question: How much should our post-doc statements of purpose/intent mirror those APPIC essays we had to write (language, content, etc.)? Also, I've had several sites specially ask for a statement of purpose, 3 letters of rec, transcripts, etc. but no mention of a cover letter. Do I send one anyway or is the statement of purpose suppose to fill that role? Others sites will specially say cover letter, 3 recs, trans, etc. Thanks.

I did a SOP or Cover letter, not both. If I e-mailed the person, I only wrote a couple of lines saying what I was applying for, that I attached the req. docs, and I listed my contact info if/when they wanted to contact me.

As for the content of my SOP/Cover letter...I spent less time talking about my prior training, and more time talking about what I wanted from fellowship. I tried to focus on how the specific rotations met my training goals and allowed me to be where I wanted to be as an early career clinician. I also wanted to illustrate what I would bring to the fellowship, and how I could contribute to the training program. The last thing I talked about were my 1 year and 5 year goals as a professional. I spent a good bit of time over the years thinking about my path, and I wanted to make sure to convey that I had a clear vision of what I wanted, and that their program would help me get there. I went 9 for 10 with interview invites, all at top sites. Aim high, right? :laugh:
 
Also, how long were your statements of purpose/intent and cover letters? My TD told me it should be a page and a half, but I wasn't sure if this was the standard.
 
Also, how long were your statements of purpose/intent and cover letters? My TD told me it should be a page and a half, but I wasn't sure if this was the standard.

I'm going to be participating in the relative chaos that is the postdoc application cycle this year, so I haven't filled any out yet myself, but 1-2 pages is generally the standard length I've heard most people recommend.
 
Top