NAVY HPSP Decisions: GMO Specifics, Residency Timeline Options, Army instead?

[rbr]

Hello All,

I know this topic is beaten to death on SDN, but I was accepted into a good state MD (allopathic) medical school. I am considering the HPSP scholarship with the Navy. I understand that financial motives alone are not sufficient enough to make it a logical choice, and the opportunity and desire to serve comes first. That is a decision I will have to make personally, but in the mean time I would like to hear some more info of from personal experiences or knowledge on some other topics concerning the decision:

A) GMO Specifics--> I understand that GMO tours are a reality if I am not selected for a residency straight through, that being said would anyone outlining some of the GMO opportunities (pros/cons/description of duty) whether that be Dive Officer, Flight Surgeon, GMO etc.

B) Residency Timeline options--> If one does not get selected for straight through residency, what are the odds of getting amore competitive residency (ex. ortho) after their GMO billet, primary care billet of their choice, and location of their choice?
Also, in the case of being a GMO and doing 4 straight years to limit time in service (4 years to pay back on commitment) how hard is it to apply and be selected for a civilian residency as a PGY2? Does the military service on your CV and experiences aid you in applying for competitive residency (ex. ortho, anest, surgery, etc)?

C)Army--> I may have the opportunity to apply for the ARMY HPSP if they begin to accept GPA waiver if they do not hit their numbers, I understand they do not do GMO tours (mandatory), are the odds of doing something competitive better in the Army or Navy? What route should you go ????


Thanks for any and all responses.

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[WernickeDO]

Hello All,

I know this topic is beaten to death on SDN, but I was accepted into a good state MD (allopathic) medical school. I am considering the HPSP scholarship with the Navy. I understand that financial motives alone are not sufficient enough to make it a logical choice, and the opportunity and desire to serve comes first. That is a decision I will have to make personally, but in the mean time I would like to hear some more info of from personal experiences or knowledge on some other topics concerning the decision:

A) GMO Specifics--> I understand that GMO tours are a reality if I am not selected for a residency straight through, that being said would anyone outlining some of the GMO opportunities (pros/cons/description of duty) whether that be Dive Officer, Flight Surgeon, GMO etc.

B) Residency Timeline options--> If one does not get selected for straight through residency, what are the odds of getting amore competitive residency (ex. ortho) after their GMO billet, primary care billet of their choice, and location of their choice?
Also, in the case of being a GMO and doing 4 straight years to limit time in service (4 years to pay back on commitment) how hard is it to apply and be selected for a civilian residency as a PGY2? Does the military service on your CV and experiences aid you in applying for competitive residency (ex. ortho, anest, surgery, etc)?

C)Army--> I may have the opportunity to apply for the ARMY HPSP if they begin to accept GPA waiver if they do not hit their numbers, I understand they do not do GMO tours (mandatory), are the odds of doing something competitive better in the Army or Navy? What route should you go ????


Thanks for any and all responses.

First off, being accepted to a state school means that it is likely more affordable than the 55K/year albatrosses that are circling the skies these days. Money is not a good reason to do HPSP but you also have to consider what kind of value you receive from the scholarship. I went to one of the aforementioned albatross schools, and while I regret my decision to join the military on a daily basis, I have to admit that I got a lot of monetary value out of my decision. Yes, I probably am losing it on the backend by delaying my training X amount of years, but the Army paid $280K+ for me to go to medical school. At a state school you won't come close to that. Is it worth it to make the concessions that the military asks for $120K? No, it's not. It's not worth it for $280K either but here we are. On to your questions:

A) Read the forums. As a GMO you will see scraped knees and sore throats in a young, healthy population. You'll also deal with the ash and trash trying to get out of duty or collect disability.

B) At least in the Army, if you go GMO you will be LESS competitive for more competitive residencies. Consider the numbers for last years EM match: 40 MS4's applied to 30 spots, whereas 28 GMO's applied to 6 spots. The idea that if you do a GMO shift, deploy, do some research, then waltz into a residency is simply not true. If your goal is to do psych or IM, then you will likely have success because they don't typically fill, so it depends on what you are looking for.

C) The Army absolutely has GMO tours. Additionally, they love to shunt newly minted BC docs into non-clinical Brigade surgeon slots. If you have a goal of practicing medicine, then avoid the military.

Advice: If you are going to what I assume is an inexpensive state school with an attached teaching hospital, there is absolutely no benefit to joining the military unless you are so driven by duty that you wish to lay your medical career upon the altar of the DOD. Take the loans and never look back. Good luck.

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

If one does not get selected for straight through residency, what are the odds of getting amore competitive residency (ex. ortho) after their GMO billet, primary care billet of their choice, and location of their choice?

For the Navy, it's almost a requirement for one to do a GMO tour for the most competitive specialties. Matching is based upon a point system and doing a tour adds points to one's application.

Also, in the case of being a GMO and doing 4 straight years to limit time in service (4 years to pay back on commitment) how hard is it to apply and be selected for a civilian residency as a PGY2? Does the military service on your CV and experiences aid you in applying for competitive residency (ex. ortho, anest, surgery, etc)?

Serving 4 years and out has been done many times. I've known and heard quite a few success stories. However, there are no resources to help you find a civilian residency after serving as a GMO. Everything must be done on your own. To see what that entails, there is a sticky thread written by a veteran on this forum. I think that post is literally the only resource that exists to help a GMO apply for the civilian match.

And yes, if you can spin your story and background correctly you can land some pretty sweet residencies. Of course you still need the grades from your medical school.

 

[kopftonmd]

B) At least in the Army, if you go GMO you will be LESS competitive for more competitive residencies. Consider the numbers for last years EM match: 40 MS4's applied to 30 spots, whereas 28 GMO's applied to 6 spots. The idea that if you do a GMO shift, deploy, do some research, then waltz into a residency is simply not true. If your goal is to do psych or IM, then you will likely have success because they don't typically fill, so it depends on what you are looking for.

Where did you get these numbers? I don't doubt you, but I've been having trouble finding them. Thank you!

 

[Helpful Troll]

Edit: Army

The FYGME (MS4) numbers are on page 15 of this document. https://education.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/GMESlideshow2016.pdf

Maybe WernickeDO can post a link to the GMO match source though it may not be a document that is openly available.

 

[WernickeDO]

Where did you get these numbers? I don't doubt you, but I've been having trouble finding them. Thank you!

The information that I provided was given to me directly from someone very high up on the food chain, so I feel confident in its accuracy. Sorry but I can't provide a document to back that up but the info is good. When I joined up as a pre-med, I was told that in the event I don't match, I would do a one year GMO shift, probably deploy to combat (it was 2009 at the time), and then have so many points that I would likely place into residency in the next cycle. Now, it's a 2 year GMO cycle and no promises for residency. Additionally, if you do 3 years GMO, you will end up accruing more ADSO when you return to residency. It's a classic bait and switch boondoggle. If I wanted psych or IM I probably would have matched (maybe), but something competitive in the Army is a different story. Point is, pre-meds should not think to themselves "Hmmm...the match rates in the Army are abysmal, but if I just do a 1 year GMO and deploy to AFG, I will come back and match to urology!". Even if you're not going for uro, there are still no guarantees that you will match to anything, be it psych, IM, FM, path. Many of my GMO/FS colleagues feel as though they have been put out to pasture and are ready to make a training compromise to get out of GMO land. Why put yourself in the position of having no control before you have even begun medical school?

 

[WernickeDO]

Edit: Army

The FYGME (MS4) numbers are on page 15 of this document. https://education.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/GMESlideshow2016.pdf

Maybe WernickeDO can post a link to the GMO match source though it may not be a document that is openly available.

As far as I know data on GMO matching is not published, probably because if they did they would decimate medical recruiting. Army trumpets 80-85% matching to a first choice specialty. How would it look if they published a 20% success rate for GMOs?

 

[kopftonmd]

@Helpful Troll and @WernickeDO , thank you!