Need advice on how to choose osteopathic audition rotations

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pathologyDO

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Hey there,

I am OMS-III trying to get things ready for when 4th year elective applications start being accepted.

There are just so many programs to choose from that I have no idea what to do. Basically any advice on programs my stats would be solid for, advice on how many auditions to do (and whether to do 2 weeks or 1 month long?), how to go about picking where to do auditions (should I email them and inquire about program first?)....... would be greatly appreciated.

I feel auditions will be important for me because of my stats: ~520 COMLEX I, 3rd quartile class rank, and so far only passes in my clinical rotations.

Right now I'm trying to focus on programs in the Midwest and would like to go to a Level I or Level II trauma site for my training. There are a metric crap-ton of residencies in Michigan and Ohio I am interested in but how do I even begin to choose where to audition??!?!

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Stats don't matter too much when going AOA. For osteopathic places a lot of programs like people to audition there if they want to go there, so a lot of 2 weeks rotation is worth while. Pick places based on location, quality, and likelyhood to survive the merger.
 
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Stats don't matter too much when going AOA. For osteopathic places a lot of programs like people to audition there if they want to go there, so a lot of 2 weeks rotation is worth while. Pick places based on location, quality, and likelyhood to survive the merger.

Well that is reassuring in regards to stats, thank you for the info. In terms of stats, do dual accredited programs focus more on stats (e.g. Genysys, Albert Einstein) ? Those places seem like top choices, maybe for my situation "dream residencies" because they seem to attract the most applicants and are obviously associated with MD residencies.

Additionally, how does one determine the likelihood to survive the merger? I have been looking at the AOA page and they mention whether they've applied for ACGME or not, most of them say whether they have applied or plan on applying. Should I avoid any that do not mention that they are even applying? Im not sure how serious to take the data on the AOA website I guess.
 
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Well that is reassuring in regards to stats, thank you for the info. In terms of stats, do dual accredited programs focus more on stats (e.g. Genysys, Albert Einstein) ? Those places seem like top choices, maybe for my situation "dream residencies" because they seem to attract the most applicants and are obviously associated with MD residencies.

Additionally, how does one determine the likelihood to survive the merger? I have been looking at the AOA page and they mention whether they've applied for ACGME or not, most of them say whether they have applied or plan on applying. Should I avoid any that do not mention that they are even applying? Im not sure how serious to take the data on the AOA website I guess.

You should plan to do three (or maybe 4) auditions. Prime time is between August and November. A couple of things I learned while auditioning a few years back, and through working with audition students now that I am a resident....

1. Your stats are just fine. A 520 is above average on the COMLEX, that number will neither make nor break your chances. We have taken students with far less, and have refused to rank many students with 600+ scores (because they were jerks). The stats can come into play, but they are really far less of a concern that the answers to several key questions A. Do I really want to work with this person for 4 years? B. Do they seem like they will be teachable? C. Do they seem honest and dependable?

2. Auditions are exhausting. It is a month long interview process. You have to always be on the top of your game. Keep that in mind when deciding how many to do...

3. The ACGME merger is a big deal, especially with your class. The AOA will no longer be certifying residents after 2020, which means your class (graduating 2021), will NEED to be certified by the ACGME. You should be very forthcoming about absolutely needing to know if the program is going to get accreditation. All programs have at least applied by this point, and most have had their site visits. If you find a program is not upfront and honest about where they are in the ACGME process, then that should be a major red flag for you

4. Level 1 trauma sounds wonderful on paper, but be advised. Not every experience is the same. You will probably get more hands on trauma experience in the community level 2 centers. In a lot of Level 1 centers, the trauma team comes down, and the ER doc just manages the airway, and that is not what most are looking for. Look for a good level 2 center, that does not have a huge surgery presence, but still see's a fair amount of trauma. There are many out there. In fact, Lakeland in St. Joe's isn't even a certified trauma center, but they are the only hospital for MILES, so they get a ton of trauma. Just because the book cover is shiny and bright, doesn't mean the story is good....

5. The match is set up to favor a student. As an applicant, you should ALWAYS rank your top program even if you are unlikely to match there. The way the algorithm works, you will not give up a chance to match at your number 2 spot simply because you didn't choose them number 1. That is not true for the programs. Ranking a student high, and having them go somewhere else, can cause us to miss out on other applicants. What this all means is that programs will rank you higher if they know that you want to come there. So if you like a program, be honest and forthcoming about it. Tell them you really want to come there. Tell them if they are your number one ( Don't tell several programs that though, word does get around). I have seen several students ranked A LOT lower simply because we did not believe they were going to rank us high.
 
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You should plan to do three (or maybe 4) auditions. Prime time is between August and November. A couple of things I learned while auditioning a few years back, and through working with audition students now that I am a resident....

1. Your stats are just fine. A 520 is above average on the COMLEX, that number will neither make nor break your chances. We have taken students with far less, and have refused to rank many students with 600+ scores (because they were jerks). The stats can come into play, but they are really far less of a concern that the answers to several key questions A. Do I really want to work with this person for 4 years? B. Do they seem like they will be teachable? C. Do they seem honest and dependable?

2. Auditions are exhausting. It is a month long interview process. You have to always be on the top of your game. Keep that in mind when deciding how many to do...

3. The ACGME merger is a big deal, especially with your class. The AOA will no longer be certifying residents after 2020, which means your class (graduating 2021), will NEED to be certified by the ACGME. You should be very forthcoming about absolutely needing to know if the program is going to get accreditation. All programs have at least applied by this point, and most have had their site visits. If you find a program is not upfront and honest about where they are in the ACGME process, then that should be a major red flag for you

4. Level 1 trauma sounds wonderful on paper, but be advised. Not every experience is the same. You will probably get more hands on trauma experience in the community level 2 centers. In a lot of Level 1 centers, the trauma team comes down, and the ER doc just manages the airway, and that is not what most are looking for. Look for a good level 2 center, that does not have a huge surgery presence, but still see's a fair amount of trauma. There are many out there. In fact, Lakeland in St. Joe's isn't even a certified trauma center, but they are the only hospital for MILES, so they get a ton of trauma. Just because the book cover is shiny and bright, doesn't mean the story is good....

5. The match is set up to favor a student. As an applicant, you should ALWAYS rank your top program even if you are unlikely to match there. The way the algorithm works, you will not give up a chance to match at your number 2 spot simply because you didn't choose them number 1. That is not true for the programs. Ranking a student high, and having them go somewhere else, can cause us to miss out on other applicants. What this all means is that programs will rank you higher if they know that you want to come there. So if you like a program, be honest and forthcoming about it. Tell them you really want to come there. Tell them if they are your number one ( Don't tell several programs that though, word does get around). I have seen several students ranked A LOT lower simply because we did not believe they were going to rank us high.

Thank you very much for these gems!!

In regards to auditions -> Do you mean full month auditions or 2 week? Does it matter? Also, should I be looking for SLOEs or LORs?
 
I'd recommend at least two full month rotations, preferably both at places with a residency and get a SLOE from each one. 2 weeks are ok to do if you can find a place that allows you to do them, but you may find trouble trying to get a good SLOE based on a two week rotation.

As a clerkship director, I don't allow students to do 2 week rotations. I also don't have any bias about people that didn't rotate at my facility, we rank many highly that never rotated. So I don't want students to feel like they have to come squeeze in some two week block to have a chance at matching at our program. Honestly, I get that students need to try and see as many programs as they can, but the rotation, grading, SLOE process is tough as it is in such little time with each student for a whole month. I don't think 2 weeks is a reasonable amount of time in order to write a SLOE for a candidate. Because in those two weeks, you'll work with probably 5 different folks 1-2 shifts. Its not like you are going to an outpatient office and working with one doctor for 2 straight weeks. Even in a month, I'm lucky if I get to work with every student more than twice. I work 12-14 shifts a month, and in interview season we have up to six students a month.
 
Also, should I be looking for SLOEs or LORs?

I'd caution against getting regular LOR's and not SLOEs from an EM rotation. They are almost always universally garbage. Many are copied and pasted from another students. I've literally seen letters that were the exact same letter with only the name changed between two candidates interviewing in the same week. I've seen this more than once too, which is sad. I put so little importance to a LOR that is not a SLOE that I score them almost all a "middle 1/3" SLOE grade, unless there is some data in there that specifically states the student is a top student. There almost never is, they are almost all just generic copy and paste letters with no actual objective information.

Places that write these generic LORs are unfortunately doing a big disservice to their students. Even if a place with a residency you are rotating at tells you that you don't need a SLOE because they don't value them at their program, I'd still push to get one. Because the best AOA programs care about them, and every ACGME program does.
 
Hey there,

I am OMS-III trying to get things ready for when 4th year elective applications start being accepted.

There are just so many programs to choose from that I have no idea what to do. Basically any advice on programs my stats would be solid for, advice on how many auditions to do (and whether to do 2 weeks or 1 month long?), how to go about picking where to do auditions (should I email them and inquire about program first?)....... would be greatly appreciated.

I feel auditions will be important for me because of my stats: ~520 COMLEX I, 3rd quartile class rank, and so far only passes in my clinical rotations.

Right now I'm trying to focus on programs in the Midwest and would like to go to a Level I or Level II trauma site for my training. There are a metric crap-ton of residencies in Michigan and Ohio I am interested in but how do I even begin to choose where to audition??!?!

4 weeks vs. 2 weeks?
- Go with 4 weeks if you plan to get a SLOE from that service. On the other hand, depending on the situation, you may end up not wanting to go to places where you audition. I personally ranked 1 program very low on my list and did not rank 1 program that I auditioned. I did very well in all my auditions and got SLOEs .. but then I found out that some places were not for me in terms of the "fit" factor.

Stats.
- 520 is an average score for EM. I wouldn't worry too much. I'd try to get high passes or honors for EM auditions. Once you get an interview, the rest is up to your personabl-ity.

Level 1 vs. Level 2.
- Audition in both Level 1 and Level 2 trauma center and get SLOEs from each. That way you have something to talk during the interview about your preference over Level 1 vs. Level 2. You know what I mean, right? :)

Ohio vs. Michigan
- Are you from Ohio or Michigan? If not, don't limit yourself in Ohio/ Michigan. I'd audition broadly. I will pay off in your interview season.
 
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That is not true for the programs. Ranking a student high, and having them go somewhere else, can cause us to miss out on other applicants.

Having seen the way that the match algorithm works, I'm just not sure this is true. If people you rank highly rank other programs highly, and match there, it's as if they never existed. You don't miss out on people if they rank you highly, but you like other people more who match elsewhere. What this DOES affect is how far down their list programs go to match all their spots, which is one of the metrics that programs use in their d*ck measuring
 
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Having seen the way that the match algorithm works, I'm just not sure this is true. If people you rank highly rank other programs highly, and match there, it's as if they never existed. You don't miss out on people if they rank you highly, but you like other people more who match elsewhere. What this DOES affect is how far down their list programs go to match all their spots, which is one of the metrics that programs use in their d*ck measuring

Whether it is true or not, most programs believe it is true.

The effect is still the same. If we feel like an applicant doesn't really want to go to our program, they will be ranked much lower.

The point is, for prospective students, let places that you love know that you are very interested in them. It matters.
 
Agreed that the effect is the same, but saying something akin to "we do it this way because of how the match process works" rather than "most program directors either don't understand the match process or have different motives than getting the best people" is disingenuous.
 
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Agreed that the effect is the same, but saying something akin to "we do it this way because of how the match process works" rather than "most program directors either don't understand the match process or have different motives than getting the best people" is disingenuous.

Totally agree with you. Frustrates me that there is still this "if you rank us first, then we'll rank you to match" mentality. Our program ranks people 1-80 in order that we want them, even if we don't think we'll get them. We dont' stack the list because of some perceived advantage of being liked by students. That's how the match works, you rank the students in order of how you want them, not in order of how they want you. Unfortunately, when programs perpetuate this myth that they need students to guarantee them that they are being ranked highly on the students list in order for the program to rank the student highly, it pressures the student into either lying to that program or actually just over ranking a program in order to "get a sure thing" in the match. This drives me nuts.

Students: Rank programs from top to bottom on how much you want to go there, no matter what you think your chances are
Programs: Rank your students from top to bottom on how much you want them in your program, no matter what you think your chances are

That's how the match works. If you hear otherwise as a student, you are being lied to.
 
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