Need Advice Regarding ROTC/Non-HPSP Please!!

[milomoneepood]

Hello All!

I have been searching around throughout almost the entire site, and I found out I could only find partial answers to the questions that I have.

I was commissioned this summer with an ed delay from on a 4-yr Army ROTC scholarship at my undergrad. Now I am a first year medical student. I did not take the HPSP scholarship because I was not sure if I could commit to the Army for +20 yrs.

Hopefully, people who have alreay been through similar situations like mine could provide advice for me. I have 4 questions...


1)I have found some threads that if you have done your ROTC in undergrad and choose to pay for your medical school with your own money, the you start off as an O-3 with 4 yrs for your pay as a resident... I was wondering if that is true. (so those that have done ROTC and are doing HPSP do not start as an O-3 with 4 yrs because Army funds them??)


2) I also would like to know how the payback obligation goes with my situation... I have talked to the actual Director of GME (Army) about a month ago and she told me that my 4 years of active duty obligation go concurrently as I do my residency in the Army (since she told me I have to do military match like HPSP students), meaning that I burn the obligation while doing residency... Please correct me if I am wrong, but for instance...

If I do IM/FP residency (3 yrs), then I only have one more year of active duty obligation after my residency is done?
If I do anything that is 4 years or more for residency, do I get to get out of the Army whenever my residency is complete?

After reading a lot of past threads here, I have a sense that you accrue years towards your active duty obligation from your Army residency even if you have not taken HPSP... I'm really confused because the GME Director told me about completing my 4 yrs of active duty obligation from ROTC concurrently while doing residency...

The number of years I would have to serve in the Army after I complete my residency is what I would like to know...


3) I have also read that even if you do not do HPSP it is important that you try to do your clinical rotations in the Army to be competitive for the residency of your choice... I thought that Army rotations are offered only for USUHS/HPSP students because they have to do their ADT over the summer. How would you have to apply to do clinical rotations as a non-HPSP student? Is it only for the summer, or also possible during your 4th year rotations?

On that note, I have read that some have found in the past a way to receive funding as a non-HPSP to do rotations over the summer... Is that possible now? If so, how can I apply for that (through whom, at what time of the year, and etc)?


4) Lastly, I am trying to get a military ID. Technically, I still am commissioned in the Army (although IRR), and it would be nice to get an ID. A classmate of mine in medical school (who also did ROTC with me) told me that he only took his oath of office and 2 IDs and received a CAC card from a local National Guard ID office, but he is on HPSP so maybe his status is different in DEERS than mine? I say this because it would make my life easier to get on base for the rotations in the future or whenever I have to get on base (my family also lives on base, but I don't have military ID to get on base with...)

I don't have any orders so I don't know if I'll be able to receive an ID - CAC would be really nice because I know that classmate of mine got a CAC, not a green one but I'm not sure if it'll happen for me... Also, I know uniform is not necessary, do I need to get a haircut and shave for the ID? My hair is king of long right now...(hope it shouldn't really matter for the ID..?)

My thread ended up really long, and I really appreciate everyone's input for this. I truly hope there are some physicians who have been through similar situations like mine and provide clear/right answers...

Thank you so much!!

P.S. One last thing... how does OBC go with ROTC/non-HPSP students?

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[elderjack21]

1)I have found some threads that if you have done your ROTC in undergrad and choose to pay for your medical school with your own money, the you start off as an O-3 with 4 yrs for your pay as a resident... I was wondering if that is true. (so those that have done ROTC and are doing HPSP do not start as an O-3 with 4 yrs because Army funds them??)

If you were serving as an active duty officer for all of medical school, you would start off with 4 yrs of service for pay. Neither HPSP nor ROTC student who didn't take HPSP nor USUHS students start out with 4 yrs of service after medical school unless they served on active duty prior to medical school

2) I also would like to know how the payback obligation goes with my situation... I have talked to the actual Director of GME (Army) about a month ago and she told me that my 4 years of active duty obligation go concurrently as I do my residency in the Army (since she told me I have to do military match like HPSP students), meaning that I burn the obligation while doing residency... Please correct me if I am wrong, but for instance...

If I do IM/FP residency (3 yrs), then I only have one more year of active duty obligation after my residency is done?
If I do anything that is 4 years or more for residency, do I get to get out of the Army whenever my residency is complete?

You are wrong. You don't pay anything back during residency, they are paying to train you (and they pay quite well). Your obligation after medical school will be whichever is longer a) your ROTC obligation or b) the length of your residency. If you stick to a residency 4 yrs or less, than you will owe 4 years of service post residency. Do something like neurosurgery and you will owe the length of that residency.

3) I have also read that even if you do not do HPSP it is important that you try to do your clinical rotations in the Army to be competitive for the residency of your choice... I thought that Army rotations are offered only for USUHS/HPSP students because they have to do their ADT over the summer. How would you have to apply to do clinical rotations as a non-HPSP student? Is it only for the summer, or also possible during your 4th year rotations?

On that note, I have read that some have found in the past a way to receive funding as a non-HPSP to do rotations over the summer... Is that possible now? If so, how can I apply for that (through whom, at what time of the year, and etc)?

There is no "funding" for non-HPSP or non-USHUS students to do rotations over the summer. To do a rotation you just contact the department at whatever military medical center you want to rotate at. You can rotate any time during 3rd or 4th years. It is at your own cost. If you are going into something other than peds/family/internal/psych/neuro you would probably want to rotate at a military program to 1) get a letter of recommendation and 2) increase your chances at matching. It is a small pool of applicants and it helps a lot to put yourself out there (this can go the other way to if you aren't strong in person).

I don't have any orders so I don't know if I'll be able to receive an ID - CAC would be really nice because I know that classmate of mine got a CAC, not a green one but I'm not sure if it'll happen for me... Also, I know uniform is not necessary, do I need to get a haircut and shave for the ID? My hair is king of long right now...(hope it shouldn't really matter for the ID..?)

You will likely get a reserve ID card, but the only way to find out is to show up at a military base and see what they have you in the system as. You should shave and have a decent haircut for your ID card, after all you intend on using it on future rotations when you should look like you are in the military. You do not need to be in uniform. When you do your rotations you may be able to get a temporary CAC card to get on computer systems. And yes you may be saying to yourself that your friend got one through the national guard so why wouldn't you get on? Who knows, totally unpredictable.

 

[milomoneepood]

If you were serving as an active duty officer for all of medical school, you would start off with 4 yrs of service for pay. Neither HPSP nor ROTC student who didn't take HPSP nor USUHS students start out with 4 yrs of service after medical school unless they served on active duty prior to medical school



You are wrong. You don't pay anything back during residency, they are paying to train you (and they pay quite well). Your obligation after medical school will be whichever is longer a) your ROTC obligation or b) the length of your residency. If you stick to a residency 4 yrs or less, than you will owe 4 years of service post residency. Do something like neurosurgery and you will owe the length of that residency.

Are you sure about this? Like I said, I have talked to the actual Director of the Army General Medical Education (GME), which is the department in charge of all the programs/students regarding medicine for the Army (HPSP as well as ROTC non-HPSP students - she said ROTC non-HPSP students are under GME as well), and she told me my 4 years from ROTC will be served concurrently while doing residency....

There is no "funding" for non-HPSP or non-USHUS students to do rotations over the summer. To do a rotation you just contact the department at whatever military medical center you want to rotate at. You can rotate any time during 3rd or 4th years. It is at your own cost. If you are going into something other than peds/family/internal/psych/neuro you would probably want to rotate at a military program to 1) get a letter of recommendation and 2) increase your chances at matching. It is a small pool of applicants and it helps a lot to put yourself out there (this can go the other way to if you aren't strong in person).

I was hoping not because I have seen some SDN users state that they have received funding for their summer rotations as a non-HPSP...

 

[Mirror Form]

Hello All!

I have been searching around throughout almost the entire site, and I found out I could only find partial answers to the questions that I have.

I was commissioned this summer with an ed delay from on a 4-yr Army ROTC scholarship at my undergrad. Now I am a first year medical student. I did not take the HPSP scholarship because I was not sure if I could commit to the Army for +20 yrs.

Hopefully, people who have alreay been through similar situations like mine could provide advice for me. I have 4 questions...


1)I have found some threads that if you have done your ROTC in undergrad and choose to pay for your medical school with your own money, the you start off as an O-3 with 4 yrs for your pay as a resident... I was wondering if that is true. (so those that have done ROTC and are doing HPSP do not start as an O-3 with 4 yrs because Army funds them??)


2) I also would like to know how the payback obligation goes with my situation... I have talked to the actual Director of GME (Army) about a month ago and she told me that my 4 years of active duty obligation go concurrently as I do my residency in the Army (since she told me I have to do military match like HPSP students), meaning that I burn the obligation while doing residency... Please correct me if I am wrong, but for instance...

If I do IM/FP residency (3 yrs), then I only have one more year of active duty obligation after my residency is done?
If I do anything that is 4 years or more for residency, do I get to get out of the Army whenever my residency is complete?

After reading a lot of past threads here, I have a sense that you accrue years towards your active duty obligation from your Army residency even if you have not taken HPSP... I'm really confused because the GME Director told me about completing my 4 yrs of active duty obligation from ROTC concurrently while doing residency...

The number of years I would have to serve in the Army after I complete my residency is what I would like to know...


3) I have also read that even if you do not do HPSP it is important that you try to do your clinical rotations in the Army to be competitive for the residency of your choice... I thought that Army rotations are offered only for USUHS/HPSP students because they have to do their ADT over the summer. How would you have to apply to do clinical rotations as a non-HPSP student? Is it only for the summer, or also possible during your 4th year rotations?

On that note, I have read that some have found in the past a way to receive funding as a non-HPSP to do rotations over the summer... Is that possible now? If so, how can I apply for that (through whom, at what time of the year, and etc)?


4) Lastly, I am trying to get a military ID. Technically, I still am commissioned in the Army (although IRR), and it would be nice to get an ID. A classmate of mine in medical school (who also did ROTC with me) told me that he only took his oath of office and 2 IDs and received a CAC card from a local National Guard ID office, but he is on HPSP so maybe his status is different in DEERS than mine? I say this because it would make my life easier to get on base for the rotations in the future or whenever I have to get on base (my family also lives on base, but I don't have military ID to get on base with...)

I don't have any orders so I don't know if I'll be able to receive an ID - CAC would be really nice because I know that classmate of mine got a CAC, not a green one but I'm not sure if it'll happen for me... Also, I know uniform is not necessary, do I need to get a haircut and shave for the ID? My hair is king of long right now...(hope it shouldn't really matter for the ID..?)

My thread ended up really long, and I really appreciate everyone's input for this. I truly hope there are some physicians who have been through similar situations like mine and provide clear/right answers...

Thank you so much!!

P.S. One last thing... how does OBC go with ROTC/non-HPSP students?

Elder Jack is wrong. To answer your questions Chwoo:

1. You will start internship as an O-3 with FOUR years of service toward your "base pay scale", but NOT toward retirement (or anything else for that matter).

2. Intership is a wash. Residency simultaneously both counts as payback and also accrues obligation time. Basically, residency will also be a wash unless it's longer than your HPSP commitment.

So if you do an IM residency (1 year internship +2 years residency), you'll finish up residency owing 4 more years. Come on, you didn't think uncle sam was stupid did you?

3. You should be able to get the military to fund you for one ADT. Contact the same people the HPSP students contact. So decide on your top choice and go there. If you live close to any military bases, you could consider going to one of those on your own dime if you're applying to a really competitive field.

4. No idea.

OBC: no funding for non-hpsp usually, which is great (why waste the summer during med school?). You can then go much later (you'll be exempt during internship and residency) and get paid 3 times as much while you're there since you'll be an O3 or O4 by that time with lots of years in service.

 

[colbgw02]

Elder Jack is wrong.

Quoted for truth.

1. You will start internship as an O-3 with FOUR years of service toward your "base pay scale", but NOT toward retirement (or anything else for that matter).

2. Intership is a wash. Residency simultaneously both counts as payback and also accrues obligation time. Basically, residency will also be a wash unless it's longer than your HPSP commitment.

So if you do an IM residency (1 year internship +2 years residency), you'll finish up residency owing 4 more years. Come on, you didn't think uncle sam was stupid did you?

3. You should be able to get the military to fund you for one ADT. Contact the same people the HPSP students contact. So decide on your top choice and go there. If you live close to any military bases, you could consider going to one of those on your own dime if you're applying to a really competitive field.

4. No idea.

OBC: no funding for non-hpsp usually, which is great (why waste the summer during med school?). You can then go much later (you'll be exempt during internship and residency) and get paid 3 times as much while you're there since you'll be an O3 or O4 by that time with lots of years in service.

Just a few things to add:

3. If you end up going on an away rotation as an unfunded medical student, you will need to generate a memorandum of agreement (MOA) between your medical school and the relevant military facility. Most medical schools will honor HPSP students doing those rotations without a MOA because they understand it's a requirement of the scholarship. That's not the case if you go as a "civilian", or at least it wasn't the case for me. Plan accordingly or else you won't get credit for your time.

4. I was able to get an ID card by stopping by the local reserve unit while on IRR in medical school. It wasn't a CAC, but these were the days before you had to have a CAC to do anything and everything.

BOLC: the part about being "protected" during internship and residency is no longer true. I managed to make it through training before being sent to BOLC, but there were a number of residents in my BOLC class who were having their medical training interrupted. Some were rising PGY-2s with continuous contracts and some were in transit to fellowships. They were given a choice: either graduate residency/fellowship late or give up some of your electives. Everyone I knew chose the latter. Bottom line, GME (read: COL Powers) is really clamping down on delaying BOLC, so making it through GME without doing it isn't a given.

 

[elderjack21]

Elder Jack is wrong. To answer your questions Chwoo:

1. You will start internship as an O-3 with FOUR years of service toward your "base pay scale", but NOT toward retirement (or anything else for that matter).

How do they give 4 years of base pay scale for people in the IRR? If this is the case wouldn't HPSP students be getting the same deal since they are 2LTs in IRR as well?

 

[NavyFP]

1) Yes, you would be paid as an O-3 over 4. (assuming 4 years since commission. Under the Title 10 U.S.C. section regulating HPSP, the time in medical school is specifically not counted towards service and longevity. Time served in the IRR not in HPSP does indeed count towards longevity.

2) For your time in ROTC, you owe 4 years not in training. Any time spent in GME will not count towards that obligation. As others have stated, if your GME2+ time is longer than 4 years, you will owe more than 4 years, otherwise you will owe 4 years after residency.

3) Yes, you should try to do rotations. You will do them on your own dime, but they are a must.

4) Yes, you will get an IRR ID card and have commisary and exchange priviledges.

 

[Mirror Form]

How do they give 4 years of base pay scale for people in the IRR? If this is the case wouldn't HPSP students be getting the same deal since they are 2LTs in IRR as well?

The four years toward pay is not from IRR. It's from the ed-delay.

 

[milomoneepood]

2. Intership is a wash. Residency simultaneously both counts as payback and also accrues obligation time. Basically, residency will also be a wash unless it's longer than your HPSP commitment.

So if you do an IM residency (1 year internship +2 years residency), you'll finish up residency owing 4 more years. Come on, you didn't think uncle sam was stupid did you?

Thanks for the answer! but then what is the difference in the number of years for AD obligation between

1) HPSP students
2) ROTC/non-HPSP students (my case)

if your residency accrues obligation time for AD but also counts towards payback for ROTC??

Then how does the Reserves Obligatoin work??

 

[milomoneepood]

3) Yes, you should try to do rotations. You will do them on your own dime, but they are a must.

3. You should be able to get the military to fund you for one ADT. Contact the same people the HPSP students contact. So decide on your top choice and go there. If you live close to any military bases, you could consider going to one of those on your own dime if you're applying to a really competitive field.

Thanks for the answers!
but now I am hearing two different things on the same topic... Which one is the correct one for the Army Medical Corp?? Maybe the current policies are changed now...?

Mirror Form - how does the process work to find rotations?? Contact the HPSP office and the Army Health recruiters will tell you what to do?? or do I need to somehow find the contact info for army hospitals on the internet myself to request a slot in their department? Also, will I be able to receive the information regarding funding for rotations if I contact the HPSP office (is that what you did?) ??

To be honest, I have lost a lot respect for the health recruiters because I have heard so many different things from so many of them...

 

[milomoneepood]

Everybody thanks so much for your input!

I hope I am not causing too much trouble by asking different questions.. but I can't find decently creditable information and it seems like there are people who have been through similar situations like mine that I can ask advice from based on their own personal experience.

 

[NavyFP]

The four years toward pay is not from IRR. It's from the ed-delay.

They still have to fit somewhere. They are commissioned when they graduate, so they are acite duty, active reserve, or IRR. What other category would they possibly be placed?


As for a paid ADT, which pot of money would that come from? HPSP? No, they will spend those rather limited dollars on people in the program. AMEDD? they don't have the right kind of money for that. It would have to come from Army Reserve Command, and they are spending it on reservists over here in the wars.

Thanks for the answers!
but now I am hearing two different things on the same topic... Which one is the correct one for the Army Medical Corp?? Maybe the current policies are changed now...?

Mirror Form - how does the process work to find rotations?? Contact the HPSP office and the Army Health recruiters will tell you what to do?? or do I need to somehow find the contact info for army hospitals on the internet myself to request a slot in their department? Also, will I be able to receive the information regarding funding for rotations if I contact the HPSP office (is that what you did?) ??

To be honest, I have lost a lot respect for the health recruiters because I have heard so many different things from so many of them...

 

[Gastrapathy]

The major reason this is hard to sort out is that very few people take this path. I suspect that your ROTC obligation is basically the same as an HPSP obligation except that you were IRR for the 4 years of medical school.

You'll be at a major disadvantage applying for residency if you are unable to rotate at Army sites. If you want something competitive, particularly with a long residency (ie 5+), you might want to take a look at a 2 year scholarship.

 

[colbgw02]

They still have to fit somewhere. They are commissioned when they graduate, so they are acite duty, active reserve, or IRR. What other category would they possibly be placed?

They're still IRR, but that's not what's important. If you obtain a degree on your own dime that the military then deems useful for your military job, then you get credit toward pay for that time. In theory, I suppose a finance officer could get an MBA by going to night school while on active duty and do the same (he'd have to convince the relevant paper-pushers, but the principle is the same). In practice, I've only known MC and JAG officers to be included under this reg.

 

[colbgw02]

Thanks for the answers!
but now I am hearing two different things on the same topic... Which one is the correct one for the Army Medical Corp?? Maybe the current policies are changed now...?

Mirror Form - how does the process work to find rotations?? Contact the HPSP office and the Army Health recruiters will tell you what to do?? or do I need to somehow find the contact info for army hospitals on the internet myself to request a slot in their department? Also, will I be able to receive the information regarding funding for rotations if I contact the HPSP office (is that what you did?) ??

To be honest, I have lost a lot respect for the health recruiters because I have heard so many different things from so many of them...

Contact the HPSP office since they should be the ones starting the process to get your ADT orders. You'll also need to contact the medical student coordinator for whichever rotation(s) you do directly. Parallel processes. The folks in Falls Church (are they still there?) won't have a clue about who is in charge of arranging rotations at MTF XYZ. You will probably need to start this many, many months before you rotate. That is, it'll probably be well before you've completely made up your mind about a specialty, much less a location.

 

[colbgw02]

2) For your time in ROTC, you owe 4 years not in training. Any time spent in GME will not count towards that obligation. As others have stated, if your GME2+ time is longer than 4 years, you will owe more than 4 years, otherwise you will owe 4 years after residency.

Strictly speaking, this is not correct. Assuming he does an active duty residency, he will technically start his ROTC payback on day one of his PGY-2 year. On that same day, he will simultaneous incur a payback for his residency. If he does a 5-year residency (including internship), then his remaining ADO stems solely from GME, because the ROTC commitment was paid from PGY 2-5. The nuance is unimportant for the overwhelming majority of people, because it comes out the same in the end, as you stated in the second sentence above.

 

[NavyFP]

Strictly speaking, this is not correct. Assuming he does an active duty residency, he will technically start his ROTC payback on day one of his PGY-2 year. On that same day, he will simultaneous incur a payback for his residency. If he does a 5-year residency (including internship), then his remaining ADO stems solely from GME, because the ROTC commitment was paid from PGY 2-5. The nuance is unimportant for the overwhelming majority of people, because it comes out the same in the end, as you stated in the second sentence above.

Ummmmmmm........no.

You can't pay back time in training. It just does not work that way. If it did, there would be absolutely no reason for an ROTC student to not take HPSP. ROTC time would be paid back during residency and then the HPSP/GME time would be paid back following residency allowing them to be free and clear 4 years after residency. They are not. They owe 8 years after residency.

Now because of concurrent payback with GME for other educational obligations, I will grant it is a moot point for the most. But if you went this path and went straight through FM/Peds/IM you would still have 4 years of active service owed at the end and not 2 which is what would happen under your assumption.

 

[milomoneepood]

Strictly speaking, this is not correct. Assuming he does an active duty residency, he will technically start his ROTC payback on day one of his PGY-2 year. On that same day, he will simultaneous incur a payback for his residency. If he does a 5-year residency (including internship), then his remaining ADO stems solely from GME, because the ROTC commitment was paid from PGY 2-5. The nuance is unimportant for the overwhelming majority of people, because it comes out the same in the end, as you stated in the second sentence above.

Ummmmmmm........no.

You can't pay back time in training. It just does not work that way. If it did, there would be absolutely no reason for an ROTC student to not take HPSP. ROTC time would be paid back during residency and then the HPSP/GME time would be paid back following residency allowing them to be free and clear 4 years after residency. They are not. They owe 8 years after residency.

Now because of concurrent payback with GME for other educational obligations, I will grant it is a moot point for the most. But if you went this path and went straight through FM/Peds/IM you would still have 4 years of active service owed at the end and not 2 which is what would happen under your assumption.

One thing I know for sure is that the Director of the Army General Medical Education told me on the phone that ROTC time will be served concurrently while doing residency...

However, based on the replies, it seems like I will also incur AD obligations as I do AD residency??

So how many years will I owe after residency..?? (then what is the difference in obligation years between ROTC/HPSP and ROTC/non-HPSP? - I would have to have less number of years for AD obligation considering I didn't take the money for medical school from the Army...)

I'm really confused now with the different types of information given here.....

 

[milomoneepood]

The major reason this is hard to sort out is that very few people take this path. I suspect that your ROTC obligation is basically the same as an HPSP obligation except that you were IRR for the 4 years of medical school.

You'll be at a major disadvantage applying for residency if you are unable to rotate at Army sites. If you want something competitive, particularly with a long residency (ie 5+), you might want to take a look at a 2 year scholarship.

How important is it to do Army rotations?? Would you have to do rotations at the sites you would like to do your residency? or is it still okay to do rotations as long as you do them at Army sites?

Besides doing rotations during summer breaks, is it possible to (or should I) do rotations during my 4th year? (I was told by my school that I get to pick certain number of sites for clinical rotations as long as the school approves them)

 

[Mirror Form]

They still have to fit somewhere. They are commissioned when they graduate, so they are acite duty, active reserve, or IRR. What other category would they possibly be placed?

There is a military wide policy on ed-delays that is designed to keep officers who take them on track with their peers. If any military officer gets granted an ed-delay, and then uses their degree for their military job, they get credit for the number of years spent getting their ed-delay toward their years in service in regard to pay scale.

Therefore, if you take an ed-delay for med school, every year you're in medical school counts toward your years in service for your pay scale.

As for a paid ADT, which pot of money would that come from? HPSP? No, they will spend those rather limited dollars on people in the program. AMEDD? they don't have the right kind of money for that. It would have to come from Army Reserve Command, and they are spending it on reservists over here in the wars.

I don't know which pot the money comes from, but that's been the policy for a long time. I assume it comes from HPSP or GME's pot.

 

[Mirror Form]

Thanks for the answers!
but now I am hearing two different things on the same topic... Which one is the correct one for the Army Medical Corp?? Maybe the current policies are changed now...?

Mirror Form - how does the process work to find rotations?? Contact the HPSP office and the Army Health recruiters will tell you what to do?? or do I need to somehow find the contact info for army hospitals on the internet myself to request a slot in their department? Also, will I be able to receive the information regarding funding for rotations if I contact the HPSP office (is that what you did?) ??

To be honest, I have lost a lot respect for the health recruiters because I have heard so many different things from so many of them...

Just contact same people HPSP students contact. They'll tell you what I told you (unless the policy changed very recently). You're not HPSP, but since you're ROTC they'll still be nice and fund you for one ADT.

 

[Mirror Form]

So how many years will I owe after residency..?? (then what is the difference in obligation years between ROTC/HPSP and ROTC/non-HPSP? - I would have to have less number of years for AD obligation considering I didn't take the money for medical school from the Army...)

In regard to you obligation, just think of it this way. Your obligation will be the same as someone who did a four year HPSP scholarship. There is absolutely no difference in length. So you'll probably owe four years after residency, unless you do one of the few longer residencies like neuro-surg.

Don't worry about IRR at this point. At most you might owe one year of it after your AD commitment, but probably not.

 

[milomoneepood]

In regard to you obligation, just think of it this way. Your obligation will be the same as someone who did a four year HPSP scholarship. There is absolutely no difference in length. So you'll probably owe four years after residency, unless you do one of the few longer residencies like neuro-surg.

Don't worry about IRR at this point. At most you might owe one year of it after your AD commitment, but probably not.

Thanks for the answer! I see... but if I had done HPSP for my medical education, then at the end of residency I would owe 4 years AD from ROTC and 4 years AD (more if neuro, or etc) from HPSP... so total of 8 (or more) years AD after residency??

Also, regarding to the funding for ADT to do a rotation, you said they would at least provide for 1 ADT (unless policies changed recently).. Would you be getting paid as an O-1 like HPSP students doing their summer rotations for 40 something days (including base pay, BAH, and etc)?
Do you know if doing summer ADT incurs any AD obligation as a ROTC/non-HPSP (assuming the Uncle Sam never gives money for free..)?

 

[colbgw02]

Ummmmmmm........no.

You can't pay back time in training. It just does not work that way. If it did, there would be absolutely no reason for an ROTC student to not take HPSP. ROTC time would be paid back during residency and then the HPSP/GME time would be paid back following residency allowing them to be free and clear 4 years after residency. They are not. They owe 8 years after residency.

That's not my understanding of it. In this scenario, the person would still owe 8 years, but the 8 years would be from HPSP and GME (assuming a 5 year residency). Similarly, if it were a 3 year residency, then the 8 years would be 2 years ROTC, 4 years HPSP, and 2 years GME.

Now because of concurrent payback with GME for other educational obligations, I will grant it is a moot point for the most. But if you went this path and went straight through FM/Peds/IM you would still have 4 years of active service owed at the end and not 2 which is what would happen under your assumption.

Not at all. I'm not sure if I didn't word it well enough or what, but that would not happen under my understanding.

 

[yoskram]

Like the OP, I am a first year medical student on Ed Delay from ROTC and not on the HPSP scholarship. I scrutinized the decision very carefully and talked to pretty much everyone I could about it for the entirety of undergrad. Here is my understanding of the situation.

First, time in medical school counts as the IRR portion of your ROTC commitment. Most people who come straight out of ROTC into active duty (AD) do their four years of AD and then their four years of IRR after they're out. Thus, after I complete my AD in the Army, I have no IRR commitment left. Time in medical school makes it so that I start as an O3 with four years of pay. How much difference does this make? Well assuming that you do a four year residency (pretty standard) and a four year AD, it's roughly 1000$ more per month for 8 years, somewhere between an 80,000$ and 100,000$ difference at the end of AD commitment. Even if you know that you want to be in the Army for the full 20 years, then even more of a difference in pay adds up after those 20 yrs (n vs. n+4 for every year that you're in the Army). You can see how if you went to a relatively cheap medical school (like myself), this would cover a good amount of your debt, let alone re-sign bonuses that you would be eligible for sooner if you don't take HPSP.

Second, your commitment works like this: residency DOES count as your commitment, but it also adds a year of commitment. The first year (PGY1) is null and doesn't count as your commitment or add a year on to your commitment. This plays out into 2 scenarios.

Possibility A: your residency is X<=5 years. Then you will simply do residency for X years and then your 4 year commitment from ROTC. Total time in Army: X+4.
Possibility B: your residency is X>5 years. Then you will do residency for X years, followed by X-1 years. Total time in Army: 2X -1.

Examples that span all possible residency lengths in the Army:
You do Internal Medicine, which is a 3 year residency (X=3). So you do residency for 3 years, followed by 4 years of active duty (Possibility A). Total time in Army: 7.

You do Dermatology, which is a 4 year residency (X=4). So you do residency for 4 years, followed by 4 years of active duty (Possibility A). Total time in Army: 8.

You do Radiation Oncology, which is a 5 year residency (X=5). So you do residency for 5 years, followed by 4 years of active duty (Possibility A). Total time in Army: 9.

You to Urology, which is a 6 year residency (X=6). So you do residency for 6 years, followed by 5 years of active duty (Possibility B: X-1). Total time in Army: 11.

You do Neurosurgery, which is a 7 year residency (X=7). So you do residency for 7 years, followed by 6 years of active duty (Possibility B: X-1). Total time in Army: 13.

Notably, your total time in the Army begins jumping 2 years instead of 1 if your residency is 6 years or longer. Also notable is that this is the EXACT same obligation commitment system as if you didn't do ROTC but did HPSP only. The upside of our path (ROTC w/ out HPSP) is that we get that n+4 years toward pay while we're in the Army, although we do have medical school debt. Really, the only situation that I can think of where the HPSP would benefit an ROTC cadet would be to take a 2 year scholarship if you knew for sure you wanted to do Neurosurgery specifically. If you did that, you would end up with the exact same commitment as the boat you're in now, but with half of medical school paid for. But to be honest that seems like a very specific situation.

Where all this can get very complicated is with fellowships, where apparently each year of fellowship adds two years of commitment. Seems like a pretty raw deal if you ask me, so I feel like I might wait to get out of the Army to do a fellowship, if I feel like it at that point.

Thirdly, even if you didn't need to do a rotation to be competitive, I would still recommend it. Wouldn't you want to experience a lifestyle, location and specialty before committing to be there long term? My understanding is that reimbursement doesn't really happen at all for the non-HPSP people like us, but it isn't difficult for us to set up a rotation. I also don't think they give preference to the HPSP kids over us ROTC folk (I mean, we have the exact same commitment after all).

Fourthly, go here to get an ID card: www.dmdc.osd.mil/rsl/. I was able to convince Sprint and Toyota to give me the military discount, so look into that!

I really recommend reading the LOI on this website as well as exploring residency options: http://www.mods.army.mil/MedicalEducation/

One important note that I found on this website is that you need to take both parts of USMLE Step II before residency applications to be considered for a military residency. A lot of civilian medical students wait till after residency match to take those, but we have to prior to residency applications.

Finally, don't stress. I think we made the right choice. Yeah, we picked up some debt, but we will pay it back. Also we haven't committed ourselves to the Army forever, but even if you decide you want to stay in the Army you're still in a better situation since you didn't take HPSP. Finally, I found all this out through my own investigations with doctors currently in the Army, AMEDD administration and SDN posters. The information I got from my HPSP recruiter was largely inaccurate.

 

[milomoneepood]

Like the OP, I am a first year medical student on Ed Delay from ROTC and not on the HPSP scholarship. I scrutinized the decision very carefully and talked to pretty much everyone I could about it for the entirety of undergrad. Here is my understanding of the situation.

First, time in medical school counts as the IRR portion of your ROTC commitment. Most people who come straight out of ROTC into active duty (AD) do their four years of AD and then their four years of IRR after they're out. Thus, after I complete my AD in the Army, I have no IRR commitment left. Time in medical school makes it so that I start as an O3 with four years of pay. How much difference does this make? Well assuming that you do a four year residency (pretty standard) and a four year AD, it's roughly 1000$ more per month for 8 years, somewhere between an 80,000$ and 100,000$ difference at the end of AD commitment. Even if you know that you want to be in the Army for the full 20 years, then even more of a difference in pay adds up after those 20 yrs (n vs. n+4 for every year that you're in the Army). You can see how if you went to a relatively cheap medical school (like myself), this would cover a good amount of your debt, let alone re-sign bonuses that you would be eligible for sooner if you don't take HPSP.

Second, your commitment works like this: residency DOES count as your commitment, but it also adds a year of commitment. The first year (PGY1) is null and doesn't count as your commitment or add a year on to your commitment. This plays out into 2 scenarios.

Possibility A: your residency is X<=5 years. Then you will simply do residency for X years and then your 4 year commitment from ROTC. Total time in Army: X+4.
Possibility B: your residency is X>5 years. Then you will do residency for X years, followed by X-1 years. Total time in Army: 2X -1.

Examples that span all possible residency lengths in the Army:
You do Internal Medicine, which is a 3 year residency (X=3). So you do residency for 3 years, followed by 4 years of active duty (Possibility A). Total time in Army: 7.

You do Dermatology, which is a 4 year residency (X=4). So you do residency for 4 years, followed by 4 years of active duty (Possibility A). Total time in Army: 8.

You do Radiation Oncology, which is a 5 year residency (X=5). So you do residency for 5 years, followed by 4 years of active duty (Possibility A). Total time in Army: 9.

You to Urology, which is a 6 year residency (X=6). So you do residency for 6 years, followed by 5 years of active duty (Possibility B: X-1). Total time in Army: 11.

You do Neurosurgery, which is a 7 year residency (X=7). So you do residency for 7 years, followed by 6 years of active duty (Possibility B: X-1). Total time in Army: 13.

Notably, your total time in the Army begins jumping 2 years instead of 1 if your residency is 6 years or longer. Also notable is that this is the EXACT same obligation commitment system as if you didn't do ROTC but did HPSP only. The upside of our path (ROTC w/ out HPSP) is that we get that n+4 years toward pay while we're in the Army, although we do have medical school debt. Really, the only situation that I can think of where the HPSP would benefit an ROTC cadet would be to take a 2 year scholarship if you knew for sure you wanted to do Neurosurgery specifically. If you did that, you would end up with the exact same commitment as the boat you're in now, but with half of medical school paid for. But to be honest that seems like a very specific situation.

Where all this can get very complicated is with fellowships, where apparently each year of fellowship adds two years of commitment. Seems like a pretty raw deal if you ask me, so I feel like I might wait to get out of the Army to do a fellowship, if I feel like it at that point.

Thirdly, even if you didn't need to do a rotation to be competitive, I would still recommend it. Wouldn't you want to experience a lifestyle, location and specialty before committing to be there long term? My understanding is that reimbursement doesn't really happen at all for the non-HPSP people like us, but it isn't difficult for us to set up a rotation. I also don't think they give preference to the HPSP kids over us ROTC folk (I mean, we have the exact same commitment after all).

Fourthly, go here to get an ID card: www.dmdc.osd.mil/rsl/. I was able to convince Sprint and Toyota to give me the military discount, so look into that!

I really recommend reading the LOI on this website as well as exploring residency options: http://www.mods.army.mil/MedicalEducation/

One important note that I found on this website is that you need to take both parts of USMLE Step II before residency applications to be considered for a military residency. A lot of civilian medical students wait till after residency match to take those, but we have to prior to residency applications.

Finally, don't stress. I think we made the right choice. Yeah, we picked up some debt, but we will pay it back. Also we haven't committed ourselves to the Army forever, but even if you decide you want to stay in the Army you're still in a better situation since you didn't take HPSP. Finally, I found all this out through my own investigations with doctors currently in the Army, AMEDD administration and SDN posters. The information I got from my HPSP recruiter was largely inaccurate.

Awesome info.

Thanks a lot!

One last thing - how is it X<=5? I thought X would be 4 since we owe 4 years of AD from ROTC...

 

[BigRedDeal]

Anyone know a good POC for those on Ed Delay who have questions on Ed Delay policy? So far, I've sent an email to [email protected] ; I then spoke on the phone with the person who replied to that email, and he was not particularly knowledgeable.

 

[yoskram]

Right, so the very first year of GME (AKA internship) doesn't do anything to your commitment (doesn't count as a year of your commitment and doesn't add a year of your commitment). This is what mirrorform meant as a "wash." Every year after the first year of residency will start adding a year on to your commitment and also fulfilling a year of your commitment. If your not interested in surgery (general, urology, ortho, oto, neuro), then this doesn't really apply. I don't quite know the logic behind this rule. This is what I've heard, but if it is incorrect I would love to know.

 

[dsl8va]

Hi, I'm currently a sophomore at UVa and I recently contracted. I'm doing SMP so I'm serving in the ARNG while doing ROTC. I now realize that HPSP would be too much of a commitment to me so I am now considering non-HPSP options to go through med school. I'm sure this topic may have been covered, but I'm new to this whole thing and I want to just lay out all my options.

These are my options to my knowledge:

1. Commission into the ARNG with an 8 year contract and go to med school during. So let's say I get a specialty bonus for $75,000 and loan repayment for $50,000. I understand that adds 6 years to my service obligation on top of my 8 years. So I could be serving 6 years after I complete residency (assuming med school + residency = 8 years). I could also access federal loans and GI bill right?

So ultimately, I will serve 6 years after residency, with a $75,000 bonus and $50,000 loan repayment on top of my GI bill and state/federal loans.

2. My other option is an education delay, rack up student loans and then commission active duty for 4 years. I'd be getting paid O-3 with 4 years in during residency, but my service obligation starts after residency so I'd be active 4 years after I complete my residency. Are there loan repayment plans or such?

Although I rack up student loans, seems like the compensation during residency and the 4 years I serve after seem to be pretty decent. But, there are no compensations during the 4 years of medical school without acquiring more service obligation, correct? So I'll just have to bear being broke for 4 years.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of these options. I just want to know if I have a good grasp of my options. So far, I seem to be leaning towards an education delay, but I'm not so sure. The guard route seems to be the most cost-effective.

I apologize once again because I may come across as lazy or arrogant for not searching other threads, but I did about an hour of reading and I just want clarification.

Help? Thanks!