Need Some Brutally Honest Advice

[sgregory89]

So, I graduated with a B.A. in Psychology from a UC school back in 2011. I was under pretty extreme family stress at the time, so I didn't do all that great. I don't want to use my hardships as an excuse for poor academic performance, especially when there are others who go through worse and still manage to succeed.

Anyway, after working for several years, I'm very much interested in pursuing veterinary school. I'm currently volunteering at several shelters and am possibly about to get an office job in a veterinary clinic in order to get a better grasp of what the environment is like, first-hand.

I have several classes I still need to take at my local CC in order to complete the prerequisites, although there was some cross-over from the science classes I was required to take for psychology.

My question is this: although it would mean even more student debt, do you think it would be a good idea to pursue another bachelor's degree that prepares one for vet school and then apply to veterinary school after that? UC Davis and Cal Poly Pomona both offer this sort of program. It seems to me that it would reflect better for my applications if I had a bachelor's degree in Animal Science, and with better grades.

I need a realistic answer... when it comes to applications, I know it's naive to be overly optimistic. But any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!

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[cadisestrama]

So, I graduated with a B.A. in Psychology from a UC school back in 2011. I was under pretty extreme family stress at the time, so I didn't do all that great. I don't want to use my hardships as an excuse for poor academic performance, especially when there are others who go through worse and still manage to succeed.

Anyway, after working for several years, I'm very much interested in pursuing veterinary school. I'm currently volunteering at several shelters and am possibly about to get an office job in a veterinary clinic in order to get a better grasp of what the environment is like, first-hand.

I have several classes I still need to take at my local CC in order to complete the prerequisites, although there was some cross-over from the science classes I was required to take for psychology.

My question is this: although it would mean even more student debt, do you think it would be a good idea to pursue another bachelor's degree that prepares one for vet school and then apply to veterinary school after that? UC Davis and Cal Poly Pomona both offer this sort of program. It seems to me that it would reflect better for my applications if I had a bachelor's degree in Animal Science, and with better grades.

I need a realistic answer... when it comes to applications, I know it's naive to be overly optimistic. But any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!

I say that if you really want to be a veterinarian and can see yourself doing vet medicine for the rest of life (if it's your passion) despite the student debt, then go for it. (And if you're not already burnt out by so much school and classes). Though... you could do post-bac programs rather than getting another B.A. I think post-bac programs are cheaper? (Not sure since I haven't done the research for post-bac programs). There are a couple in California:
https://services.aamc.org/postbac/getprogs.cfm (though these are pre-medical programs...)

As long as you can obtain enough vet (and animal) experience and get good grades, etc, you have a good chance of getting into vet school. You could also apply just to the ones who place less emphasis on grades (or take the more recent grades only) or something along those lines... (depending on what your overall gpa is and what the cut-off and average gpas, etc, are for the schools you're applying to).

Edit: Actually, I think, the tuition of post-bacc programs depend on the school/location. So you could compare the costs of getting another bachelor's vs getting a post-bacc.

 

[anotherbusybee]

Uhhh...

My question is this: although it would mean even more student debt, do you think it would be a good idea to pursue another bachelor's degree that prepares one for vet school and then apply to veterinary school after that? UC Davis and Cal Poly Pomona both offer this sort of program. It seems to me that it would reflect better for my applications if I had a bachelor's degree in Animal Science, and with better grades.

NO NO NO. You do NOT need another bachelor's degree. Do NOT go into extra debt for an extra bachelors. Ugh *shudder* They don't call it a "BS" for anything. In fact, I'm familiar with many people who aim for a Masters before entering a Doctorate level program, and they chide themselves because many in academia now see "MS" as the new "BS". Just take the pre-reqs you need - without entering a degree program. Community colleges are fine. Distance programs, if acceptable at your prospective vet school, are fine. Do what you gotta do. Don't get another bachelors... unless, I mean, you really like throwing money away. But, hey, I guess if you're applying to vet school, you do like throwing money away

Seriously. The debt load is no freaking joke. It's pathetic, and it's discouraging. I highly suggest pre-vet students consider their finances seriously. Remember: Vet schools WANT lots of new applicants because we're sources of income. They're kind of pushing propaganda. Don't believe everything (anything...) they say to you about debt and job prospects. Look at the numbers, look at the job market, make a decision based on reality. It's not a pretty world out there for new graduates, and the financial/economic climate for vet students is not improving. I can't tell you whether you should apply or not, but DON'T get another bachelors!!!!

 

[epivetlove]

I would echo the other sentiments in this thread and advise on just taking the pre-reqs to save time and money. CC is fine, but be sure that the vet schools you are interested in applying to accept CC credit (most will accept lower level courses, but not upper division sciences and such).

 

[that redhead]

Another bachelors isn't necessary. Get As in your pre-reqs and that should go a long way toward rectifying your previous grades, especially with solid experience under your belt.

 

[Virginger]

(A) try to take courses at CC first (look at teacher reviews pick out courses and people tend to perform better in small class sizes). CCs dont charge graduate tuition rates like universities do (vet schools care more about grades then where you took the course work anyways)
(B) you dont need to get another BS... look at the weaknesses in your GPA for cumulative, sci and last 45 and develop a plan to increase your GPAs to a competitive level ... some schools average or replace coursework, and it is much easier to fix your GPA than cushion it from bad grades. also, some schools do not account for graduate course work in some GPA calculations, so dont be mislead by the benefit of additional graduate degrees.
(C) call schools to see how they evaluate applicants. some schools have VERY strict cut offs for GPAs, especially if you think you have some weaknesses in GPA. if you are VERY serious and you think your IS is not going to let you in for GPA, look at other schools and consider moving to that state (but that is one year commitment that has to (at least) start in july a year before the start of class.
(D) the GRE is a good place to dramatically help your stat at some schools, so do well on it if your grades are not to hot
(E) try to go in state for vet school (SERIOUSLY, there is no way that veterinarians can reasonably pay of huge student debts in this industry)
(F) diverse and quality veterinary experience is always good, but does not fix bad grades... i have known people to use experience as a crutch, and not focus on the harder task of improving grades.

if you didnt master the academic setting before you enter vet school, you will be very miserable because vet school is infinitely harder than anything you will ever experience. you can only benefit from mastering prerequisite coursework and learning how to balance a tough schedule.

I wish you good luck!!! It is a lot of fun (or at least thats what they tell us to think ). Sorry if i gave out the captain hardass advice, but i think it is what helped me get into school.

 

[cowgirla]

(vet schools care more about grades then where you took the course work anyways)
.

Not neccessarily - Depends on the school. If you plan on applying to OK, for instance, a lot of your upper level science courses must be taken at a 4 year institution.

 

[Virginger]

Not neccessarily - Depends on the school. If you plan on applying to OK, for instance, a lot of your upper level science courses must be taken at a 4 year institution.

...but thats given that you cant take upper level coursework at CC, so thats a moot point.
but for courses like physics, general chemistry, and other 200-level-or-less coursework there are options at CC, and one should play those options to their advantage.

...mildly unrelated, but some of the best profs I have had were at CC when i was working on my "self-improvement" year, so i think it is unfortunate that people try to look down upon those programs when preparing for professional programs.

 

[onisteverina]

So.. I pretty much have the same background. B.A. in psych from a UC.. worked a bit and decided that I wanted to pursue vet med. I discussed my options with an advisor from the UC I attended and they suggested against getting a second bachelors and opt for some CC or post-bacc program. Where my situation differs from yours is that I had to pretty much take ALL of my pre-reqs...only had stats and other English/humanities/etc requirements. I decided to do a post-bacc health professions program through UCB extension. The classes are definitely more expensive than CC, but they are treated as coming from a 4 year and you don't have to compete with other undergrad students for spots (as you would if you were going to a 4 yr school as a non-degree seeking student). I wouldn't go the second degree route, but just focus on getting the pre-requisites and getting good grades.. I don't think it really matters what your degree was as long as you take the appropriate classes..

 

[cowgirla]

...but thats given that you cant take upper level coursework at CC, so thats a moot point.
but for courses like physics, general chemistry, and other 200-level-or-less coursework there are options at CC, and one should play those options to their advantage.

...mildly unrelated, but some of the best profs I have had were at CC when i working on my "self-improvement" year, so i think it is unfortunate that people try to look down upon those programs when preparing for professional programs.

At most schools "animal nutrition" is a basic level course, but for OK it's considered "upper level" and needs to be taken at a 4 year university. Just saying that anyone looking into CC courses needs to be aware that not all schools will take all CC courses, and every school is different. Some CC also offer organic, biochem, etc, but those wouldn't be accepted by some vet schools.

 

[DVMDream]

...but thats given that you cant take upper level coursework at CC, so thats a moot point.
but for courses like physics, general chemistry, and other 200-level-or-less coursework there are options at CC, and one should play those options to their advantage.

Some CC's do offer upper division courses, so you have to be careful and plan according to which vet schools you will apply to. Some vet schools care that upper division courses were taken at a CC and some do not; just depends. I know a few people on these forums have done all of their pre-reqs through a CC, so it is possible.

Just need to be aware of what schools you plan on applying to require.

 

[jerseyshoregirl]

Yeah definitely don't do another BS degree. The vet schools don't seem to care that my BA is in art history and I took all my pre-reqs in a non matriculated post-bac program - I have already been accepted at one school and have a bunch of interviews! Only take the courses you need to take to apply in order to save both time and money. The post bac program I did had me remain non matriculated so I could take whatever courses I needed and didn't have to complete a specific program. I don't know if all of them work the same way tuition wise, but I had to pay regular undergrad tuition for each semester I was enrolled full time (12 + credits) and pay undergrad per credit rates for each part time semester (anything up to 11 credits). I did 1 year full time and 4 semesters part time in order to complete my 40 to 50 credits. It definitely cost me less than getting another Bachelors degree though was still pricey. I took all my science courses at the university but I took statistics online at a community college over the summer to save money. I know some other people are proponents of taking all of the courses at community colleges, but honestly I wanted to ensure I had the best possible shot at getting in since I devoted so much time and money into changing careers, and when I called and spoke to individual schools, many of the ones I applied to told me they would prefer I took them at a 4 yr institution. Not that taking the courses at a community college will be a deal breaker (and certainly many people on here have been successful doing it), but it wasn't the right path for me. If your option financially is to take them at cc though, then definitely do it! Try to find a job in the vet profession while you are taking post bac classes so you can get vet exp and also save money at the same time! Good luck!

 

[bunnity]

...but thats given that you cant take upper level coursework at CC, so thats a moot point.
but for courses like physics, general chemistry, and other 200-level-or-less coursework there are options at CC, and one should play those options to their advantage.

...mildly unrelated, but some of the best profs I have had were at CC when i was working on my "self-improvement" year, so i think it is unfortunate that people try to look down upon those programs when preparing for professional programs.

My friend was rejected from Penn mostly because she took her pre-req's at a "no name" college (they told her this at a file review). People aren't trying to be snooty by recommending that the OP consider the type of school they choose for their pre-req's. You're right that some vet schools will not care where classes are taken - but some will, and whether that is right or wrong, people planning their applications should know that up front before they spend their money.

 

[Falina]

I got a BS in animal science at Fresno State before getting into Davis.
By doing an animal science BS, you'd get animal experience as well as take a few classes that pertain to animal health that other majors don't take (animal nutrition, animal anatomy, feeds & feeding, animal repro aren't required by Davis, but you'd take them).
That being said, the advantage isn't all that great. The cal-state animal science programs are extremely large-animal based, so if you're interested in small animal medicine you may not find it that interesting. Also, in my class of 138 students, just 44 of us had animal-related undergraduate degrees. 16 had humanities/sociology/etc degrees. When cost and time is taken into consideration, I wouldn't recommend going and getting another BS.

I spent 2 years of my undergrad at a community college. Don't worry about Davis/Western being picky about that. (Just remember to find out what classes they require to be taken at a 4 year university).

 

[jerseyshoregirl]

My friend was rejected from Penn mostly because she took her pre-req's at a "no name" college (they told her this at a file review). People aren't trying to be snooty by recommending that the OP consider the type of school they choose for their pre-req's. You're right that some vet schools will not care where classes are taken - but some will, and whether that is right or wrong, people planning their applications should know that up front before they spend their money.

Yes, penn is one of the ones I was referring to that strongly prefer a 4 yr university over cc... They also told me that they preferred no online courses, but wouldn't terribly mind 1 or 2. They said they did not like 100 % online post bac programs. I have 2 online courses and they seem to be ok with this atm bc I got an interview... Cornell had the same kind of advice. However, Davis told me that they did not care...

 

[StartingoverVet]

If you are still in calif, then I highly recommend the extension programs at Berkeley or UCLA etc. they are a bit more expensive, but they have all the courses you will need, and there is no question the are viewed the same as other students from those schools. I found those class's more geared to the adults wh have t take them..so less undergrad BS and not as cut throat students.

Tha eliminates all problems about cc or not.

Also you can take that the undergrad listed classes as well through the extension programs. I got a science certidicate which is meaningless but looks good on the app.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

As others have said, don't bother with another Bachelor's degree - just get the pre-reqs you need. I had a BA and then over 12 years later decided I wanted to go to vet school. I went back to university for the prerequisites I needed, then applied to vet school.

 

[tangowhiskey]

I have an AAS...and no BS. Just did the prereqs when I decided to go back to school some 5 or 6 years later. Rock the prereqs, gain vet experience, and have confidence in yourself. I think that's the best any if us can/could do.

 

[LetItSnow]

My friend was rejected from Penn mostly because she took her pre-req's at a "no name" college (they told her this at a file review). People aren't trying to be snooty by recommending that the OP consider the type of school they choose for their pre-req's. You're right that some vet schools will not care where classes are taken - but some will, and whether that is right or wrong, people planning their applications should know that up front before they spend their money.

Totally agree with you.

I'll be blunt; I think that's a stupid thing for Penn (or any other school) to do, and they *REALLY* ought to reconsider it. Many schools accept CC credits or don't concern themselves with where pre-reqs were done, and it doesn't appear to be impacting their ability to get students through the program. Assuming that's correct, forcing students to do pre-reqs at more expensive schools just adds to the student-debt burden that vet students undertake.

So for a school like Penn it would take ZERO changes in their program, their funding, their curriculum, or anything else in order to allow some of their students to undertake less student debt. And, assuming the experience of schools like UMN (which even goes so far as to publish lists of classes at local schools that meet the pre-req requirements) is a good reflection, it wouldn't have any impact on their program. So I can't think of a single compelling reason to stick with that kind of attitude.

Not trying to single Penn out; I know some other schools are the same way.

 

[bunnity]

Totally agree with you.

I'll be blunt; I think that's a stupid thing for Penn (or any other school) to do, and they *REALLY* ought to reconsider it. Many schools accept CC credits or don't concern themselves with where pre-reqs were done, and it doesn't appear to be impacting their ability to get students through the program. Assuming that's correct, forcing students to do pre-reqs at more expensive schools just adds to the student-debt burden that vet students undertake.

So for a school like Penn it would take ZERO changes in their program, their funding, their curriculum, or anything else in order to allow some of their students to undertake less student debt. And, assuming the experience of schools like UMN (which even goes so far as to publish lists of classes at local schools that meet the pre-req requirements) is a good reflection, it wouldn't have any impact on their program. So I can't think of a single compelling reason to stick with that kind of attitude.

Not trying to single Penn out; I know some other schools are the same way.

Yeah, and I feel like there is so much variability between professors within a school that being picky about schools probably doesn't work anyway. I went to a state school (so not a CC or a fancy school) so it's hard for me to say first hand if there is any difference in difficulty, but I am right with you when it comes to keeping debt down! I love that my state school was affordable enough that I could graduate undergrad debt free.

 

[WillowLeaf]

Yeah, and I feel like there is so much variability between professors within a school that being picky about schools probably doesn't work anyway. I went to a state school (so not a CC or a fancy school) so it's hard for me to say first hand if there is any difference in difficulty, but I am right with you when it comes to keeping debt down! I love that my state school was affordable enough that I could graduate undergrad debt free.

I think that's very true. I've had an unusual pathway through college, and have taken classes from multiple universities and CC's. I had some challenging classes and some ridiculously easy classes at each. I just got an A in a 4-year-university class for which I failed the final... how does that even happen, and how is that considered good teaching/learning?! It was a disaster of a class. And for one class at another university, all our exams were actually online and open-book (with a time limit that was supposed to mean we needed to at least know where in the book to look up the information, but still...). Some of my CC classes were excellently taught, reasonably challenging, and I learned a lot. I hope vet schools stop caring where the prerequisites were taken...

 

[anotherbusybee]

It is imperfect, but it is what it is. Generally (not always, but generally), 4-year institutions have a different student body, different faculty, and different standards from CCs. Generally, the student population is of a higher caliber for many different reasons. Generally, 4-year-institutions tend to be more similar to each other in terms of their course structures and course difficulties than they are to community colleges. Generally, if the 4-year-institution is accredited by the appropriate regional education association, the standards are sufficiently high to indicate that an "A" in a class indicates significant mastery of content. So, that seems to be the crux of the issue - generally, 4-year-institutions are more comparable to each other than they are to CCs. So, generally, it's more reliable and predictive to compare GPAs from across 4-year-institutions than CCs. Generally. Always? No. But, generally, this is true.

And if you think Penn's rule is harsh, you should check out the MD schools. Due to the insane amount of applicants many MD schools receive for shockingly limited seats, they outright will tell you that 1) CC courses reflect negatively on your application 2) applicants from Ivy/HYPSM/Top 20 universities get a nod 3) they actually consider a school's pattern of grade inflation and deflation, etc. So, I consider DVM adcoms to be quite generous and fair, given how strict they could be with where you take your courses and GPA calculations. Like I said, it's imperfect, but it is what it is.

 

[StartingoverVet]

It is imperfect, but it is what it is. Generally (not always, but generally), 4-year institutions have a different student body, different faculty, and different standards from CCs. Generally, the student population is of a higher caliber for many different reasons. Generally, 4-year-institutions tend to be more similar to each other in terms of their course structures and course difficulties than they are to community colleges. Generally, if the 4-year-institution is accredited by the appropriate regional education association, the standards are sufficiently high to indicate that an "A" in a class indicates significant mastery of content. So, that seems to be the crux of the issue - generally, 4-year-institutions are more comparable to each other than they are to CCs. So, generally, it's more reliable and predictive to compare GPAs from across 4-year-institutions than CCs. Generally. Always? No. But, generally, this is true.

And if you think Penn's rule is harsh, you should check out the MD schools. Due to the insane amount of applicants many MD schools receive for shockingly limited seats, they outright will tell you that 1) CC courses reflect negatively on your application 2) applicants from Ivy/HYPSM/Top 20 universities get a nod 3) they actually consider a school's pattern of grade inflation and deflation, etc. So, I consider DVM adcoms to be quite generous and fair, given how strict they could be with where you take your courses and GPA calculations. Like I said, it's imperfect, but it is what it is.

I agree most about the student bodies. Having taking a single CC class, classes at UCLA extension, UCLA regular, and Penn undergrad, I can tell you the intelligence of the students at Penn >>> UCLA > UCLA extension > CC . No one is going to convince me otherwise. And being around smart people is generally a good thing.

BUT, having said that, I don't know that the quality of the learning is really any different AT ALL.

So, if you are going to be picking a student body that is highly competitive and intelligent, then perhaps you could argue that you want applicants who are used to that environment. Not sure I buy it though. I don't think it would really matter much once you are in vet school.

 

[anotherbusybee]

Intelligence is a sticky thing. I wouldn't say that, perhaps, Princeton undergrads necessarily make up a more intelligent student body than, say, UCLA, but they bring different strengths to their community. The difference between Top 20 university student bodies is probably negligible. The difference between Top 20 universities and CCs, however, is not negligible.

All I knew was.. whenever I felt bad about DVM admissions, I just swung over to the pre-MD forums, held my mouth agape at their trials and tribulations, and felt pretty good about my apps after that. MD apps are incredibly numbers driven. We are really fortunate that DVM apps are less numbers/prestige driven and more content/experientially based. We're fortunate that "As long as you mastered the material, it doesn't matter where you mastered it" still applies.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Intelligence is a sticky thing. I wouldn't say that, perhaps, Princeton undergrads necessarily make up a more intelligent student body than, say, UCLA, but they bring different strengths to their community. The difference between Top 20 university student bodies is probably negligible. The difference between Top 20 universities and CCs, however, is not negligible.

.

Having spent a considerable amount of time at Penn undergrad and at UCLA taking several classes with undergrads (and now at Princeton a little as well), IMHO there is a big difference in intelligence. It is obvious in the classrooms to me. Of course not across the board, just on average. Feel free to differ, but I speak from my personal experience.

 

[anotherbusybee]

I'm not here to argue that one undergrad is smarter than another. Not at all. That's an entirely moot point, and it is a debate bashed into the ground and beaten into the dirt. College admissions issues are well known (legacies, lack of critical mass for URMs, parsing out advantages vs disadvantages, SES disparities, etc.). To explain your observations, however, keep in mind that many UC students (hell, majority?) are first-generation children of poor immigrants or immigrants themselves. Many are undocumented people fleeing terrible conditions of their home country and living in still-very-poor conditions in America. This is NOT the case for most Ivy students. I don't doubt that if you overheard a conversation amongst a group of these folks at UCLA and compared it to a typical conversation amongst the children of parents with advanced degrees at Princeton, you'd notice a clear disparity. (Even the socioeconomic "word gap" doesn't go away in college) But is this disparity really a deficiency in intellect? Or is it parent's education/jobs? Familial connections? Differences in early childhood ed? Is it a true disparity of intellect or is it simply a salient signal that one perceives due to social and cognitive biases or indicators? For what it's worth, I learned everything I know in the UC system and I love UCs, and being in Ivy-land has only made that love stronger.

 

[StartingoverVet]

fair enough.

 

[yogapony]

I feel like I noticed a huge difference between the undergrads when I was an undergrad, versus when I returned as a graduate student. But I'm not sure that it is a reflection of the undergrad population at the different schools I've gone to so much as it reflects the difference in myself as a student. As an older, wiser (ha!) student, a lot of what I would see from the undergrads made me cringe....but I don't doubt that I was the same way in my time; I just didn't notice it back then.

 

[gfa240]

Uhhh...

NO NO NO. You do NOT need another bachelor's degree. Do NOT go into extra debt for an extra bachelors. Ugh *shudder* They don't call it a "BS" for anything. In fact, I'm familiar with many people who aim for a Masters before entering a Doctorate level program, and they chide themselves because many in academia now see "MS" as the new "BS". Just take the pre-reqs you need - without entering a degree program. Community colleges are fine. Distance programs, if acceptable at your prospective vet school, are fine. Do what you gotta do. Don't get another bachelors... unless, I mean, you really like throwing money away. But, hey, I guess if you're applying to vet school, you do like throwing money away

Seriously. The debt load is no freaking joke. It's pathetic, and it's discouraging. I highly suggest pre-vet students consider their finances seriously. Remember: Vet schools WANT lots of new applicants because we're sources of income. They're kind of pushing propaganda. Don't believe everything (anything...) they say to you about debt and job prospects. Look at the numbers, look at the job market, make a decision based on reality. It's not a pretty world out there for new graduates, and the financial/economic climate for vet students is not improving. I can't tell you whether you should apply or not, but DON'T get another bachelors!!!!

I am one of those pre-vets who has researched the crap out of the financial aspect of becoming a vet and it has gotten me petrified.So I am not the only one who is totally discouraged by the debt:income ratio and market saturation?? Am I hallucinating? if that's the case, then why are SOOO many people dying to get into vet school? all these people that apply 6 times? Am I the only crazy person here who thinks 2+2 in this case does not equal 4?

 

[gfa240]

I agree most about the student bodies. Having taking a single CC class, classes at UCLA extension, UCLA regular, and Penn undergrad, I can tell you the intelligence of the students at Penn >>> UCLA > UCLA extension > CC . No one is going to convince me otherwise. And being around smart people is generally a good thing.

BUT, having said that, I don't know that the quality of the learning is really any different AT ALL.

So, if you are going to be picking a student body that is highly competitive and intelligent, then perhaps you could argue that you want applicants who are used to that environment. Not sure I buy it though. I don't think it would really matter much once you are in vet school.

I like you have taken classes at USC, UCLA, UCLA ext and CC. The most surprising to me was the quality of the teaching in these classes. I thought CC did the best job out of all them. However, I will say this. Most (not all ) CC students were the weakest in terms of academic abilities. I would not directly correlate that with intelligence though. Being a good student takes more than just intelligence. There is discipline, study methods/habits, determination, etc. that goes into academic success. There are also socio-economic factors that go into this equation. I have always said it and firmly believe that the school doesn't make the student. The student makes the school. Plenty of successful people have at one time or another attended CC. Granted, the Ivy name will probably carry you further than CC. I mean the who wouldn't stare at a Ferrari?