Nervous Jitters: 3.18 cGPA, 3.46 sGPA, MCAT 32Q

[EEtoMDorDO]

Hi Everyone,


Thanks for having me on the boards. I'm looking forward to meeting other people with similar interests and goals!


After a 5 year break from an insanely challenging engineering curriculum that I performed poorly in (2.8 GPA, quarter system, what a mistake!), I decided to go all out and try to get into medical school clinging to the hope that a few US medical schools out there would be willing to look past my early blunders as a kid, and recognize my 2 straight years of 4.0 work at the graduate level in Biomedical Sciences.


My bad GPA in undergrad was hardly due to a lack of intellect, but can be better attributed to immaturity/youthful arrogance, lack of guidance, and bad organizational habits during my early college years.


2 years ago at the age of 32 I decided to aggressively pursue premed and then a post-bacc program to help my GPA.


I have the final numbers, and would like some input if you all have a few minutes. Your answers will help me make some final decisions before taking the application plunge. Also, any heavy doses of reality are welcome The sharper I can refine my focus before applying, the better.


Some information about my background:

ECs/Notables

Emergency room technician for 2 years with plenty of hands-on experience with patients and physicians

Conducted 24 interviews with physicians asking them what their biggest regrets are about choosing medicine as a profession. The reason I did this was strictly to dose myself with as much reality about the non-glamorous aspects of medicine as possible.

4 years as a volunteer math and science tutor at the university level

4.0 in the last 75 semester hours of post-bacc, earned a M.S. in Biological Sciences

Several years outside of the medical setting working closely with people in sales, customer service, and engineering in both paid and vounteer capacities

The Numbers:

My final BPCM GPA is 3.46

My final overall GPA is 3.18 (Engineering grades KILLED me. Yikes!)

My MCAT first attempt was 32Q which I am very happy with.


Based on the experiences of people on this board, is there anyone that can offer any suggestions or input as I start applying to various schools?

Thank you all in advance!

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[EEtoMDorDO]

I just located the Sticky about MCATs over 30. Apologies for adding any clutter to the "What are my chances?" forum.

Good luck everyone!

 

[Catalystik]

Are you planning to submit an application to AMCAS now (as opposed to waiting until June 2011)? You understand that AMCAS keeps the undergrad and grad GPAs separate, right?
Will you also apply through AACOMAS (as your screen name implies)? They DO merge undergrad and grad GPAs.

Is your Master of Biological Sciences one of the programs in the Postbaccalaureate Programs sticky of known programs that enhance chances of med school acceptance?

You know that AMCAS doesn't include most engineering courses in the BCPM, where AACOMAS does include it in the sGPA? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=552026

Also, if you retook any coursework, AACOMAS only includes the most recent grade.

EC-wise, your clinical experience is terrific. You imply you've shadowed "on the job" but did you do any formal shadowing of other physicians. Ideally, you will have done so, and included an office-based primary care doc. Did you shadow a DO to get a DO letter, or can you get one from one of the ER docs?

Have you contacted your state schools, or those that you plan to apply to to ask if they consider the BCPM of grad-level work in making their decisions? Many MD schools and some DO schools do not.

 

[EEtoMDorDO]

Hi Catalystik,

Thanks for taking the time to put together such a detailed reply to my post.

Are you planning to submit an application to AMCAS now (as opposed to waiting until June 2011)? You understand that AMCAS keeps the undergrad and grad GPAs separate, right?

Will you also apply through AACOMAS (as your screen name implies)? They DO merge undergrad and grad GPAs.

I am going to wait until 2011 to start applying. I'm not 100% confident at the moment that I am where I want to be to start applying.

I will be applying through both AMCAS and AACOMAS. I was not aware that AMCAS kept the GPAs separate!

Since this is the case, I'm in worse shape than I previously thought since I did very well in my post-bacc work and was counting on it to somewhat lift my UG GPA.

Crunching the new numbers under AMCAS rules, my BCPM is 3.33 and my cGPA is 3.08. Abyssmal.

Regarding AACOMAS, after crunching the numbers I am sitting at a sciGPA of 3.34 and a cGPA of 3.4 assuming I retake a few classes.

Is your Master of Biological Sciences one of the programs in the Postbaccalaureate Programs sticky of known programs that enhance chances of med school acceptance?

I took the MS-B program at Colorado State in Fort Collins and achieved a 4.0 (second on the list on the SDN thread).

EC-wise, your clinical experience is terrific. You imply you've shadowed "on the job" but did you do any formal shadowing of other physicians. Ideally, you will have done so, and included an office-based primary care doc. Did you shadow a DO to get a DO letter, or can you get one from one of the ER docs?

Not yet. I am currently in the process of getting an MD letter from one of the ER docs and I have not done any formal shadowing in the primary care setting. I plan on doing this in the next two months. I received quite a bit of resistance to my shadowing efforts even from my own PCP (known the guy for 17 years). He recommended shadowing a Hospitalist.

I have not shadowed a DO, although after taking another look at my GPAs this would probably be my best bet.

Have you contacted your state schools, or those that you plan to apply to to ask if they consider the BCPM of grad-level work in making their decisions? Many MD schools and some DO schools do not.

This is a work in progress.

How much emphasis do MD or DO schools place on recent GPA upswings combined with a slightly above-average MCAT?

Thanks again!

 

[USCTrojan11]

Personally I think if you apply early and apply broadly, plenty of schools will take a good hard look. The MCAT shows your competence and if you could post your postbac gpa which you say is close to 4.0 you're in great shape. Write the shiet out of your personal statement and make sure schools know your dedication and that you've learned your lesson. I've seen worse cases than yours get in while better get denied. There's no guarantees in this process but keep in mind. Some schools will take a holistic approach to your app if they think you are truly dedicated to service or research or something else thats found in their mission statement. Coordinate that well with a PS that explains the bad early performance and you could be in very good shape to get in to a mid-tier.

 

[Catalystik]

1) I am going to wait until 2011 to start applying. I'm not 100% confident at the moment that I am where I want to be to start applying.

2) Crunching the new numbers under AMCAS rules, my BCPM is 3.33 and my cGPA is 3.08. I took the MS-B program at Colorado State in Fort Collins and achieved a 4.0 (second on the list on the SDN thread).

3) Regarding AACOMAS, after crunching the numbers I am sitting at a sciGPA of 3.34 and a cGPA of 3.4 assuming I retake a few classes.

4) How much emphasis do MD or DO schools place on recent GPA upswings combined with a slightly above-average MCAT?

1) I'm glad you're not rushing into applying right now, as the timing would be poor, and you will have time to mend the hole in your application, ie shadowing. A hospitalist is fine. He/she may be able to give you other leads, as can an ER doc. If there is no DO on the ER staff, look in the phone book and make cold calls, asking to shadow.

2) Yes, for AMCAS, at first glance the numbers don't look good, but don't count yourself out yet. You have a steep upward grade trend going for you in the sciences. You're nontrad, which makes some programs give less weight to the early college years. And Colorado loves nontrads (if that happens to be your home state).

It is beneficial to have completed a well-known program with a good track record. The program's counselors can tell you what their past experience has been for folks with your numbers and what schools will give their alums stronger consideration. Talk to them, or if you did, tell us what they said.

3) You are in great shape for AACOMAS schools. No worries there. You will be a doctor.

4) Every school will be impressed with a recent GPA upswing, but some more than others when its part of a grad degree. What you're looking for, if your school advisor can't give you sufficiently specific information, is MD schools that do let a grad degree BCPM override the undergrad BCPM.

I've been watching this for awhile, and have evidence of four schools that do this: COLORADO (yeah), UCentral Florida, Minnesota, and Arizona. I'm sure there are more, and if you ferret out more of them, I'd appreciate it if you'd post to help future others who need to know.

 

[EEtoMDorDO]

USCTrojan11 and Catalystik,

Thank you both for the words of encouragement.

I will certainly keep this post updated with recent developments from schools I speak with regarding said circumstances so others can also benefit.

Thank you both again!

 

[EEtoMDorDO]

Catalystik

One aspect of my application I neglected to mention was that I took 90% of my pre-med at a Community College.

Although I managed a 4.0 in 3 semesters (16 units per semester), I understand some medical schools might look at this as a bad thing or that somehow it "wasn't rigorous enough".

In your experiences, is the Community College factor a formidable opponent for Non-Trads?

Thanks again.

 

[Catalystik]

Catalystik

In your experiences, is the Community College factor a formidable opponent for Non-Trads?

No.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Quote:
Originally Posted by EEtoMDorDO
Catalystik

In your experiences, is the Community College factor a formidable opponent for Non-Trads?

No.

This is not the consensus at SDN Catalystic. I took Bio 1&2, Gen Chem 1&2 at a Junior College (JC) and Organic 1 & 2 , Biochem1 and Genetics at a state school. I got As and Bs on all of them; and people on SDN keep saying that the classes that I took at JC will put a question mark in my application. I hope they are not right. I am a non trad student (RN) and I have almost identical GPAs with OP with good upward trend (3.7+ on my last year); however, my mcat is 27P ; I will retake it in May 2011..hoping for 30+. I will be applying to DOs exclusively so I hope these school overlook the prereqs I took at the JC. What do you suggest?

 

[EEtoMDorDO]

Quote:
Originally Posted by EEtoMDorDO
Catalystik

In your experiences, is the Community College factor a formidable opponent for Non-Trads?



This is not the consensus at SDN Catalystic. I took Bio 1&2, Gen Chem 1&2 at a Junior College (JC) and Organic 1 & 2 , Biochem1 and Genetics at a state school. I got As and Bs on all of them; and people on SDN keep saying that the classes that I took at JC will put a question mark in my application. I hope they are not right. I am a non trad student (RN) and I have almost identical GPAs with OP, however, my mcat is 27P ; I will retake it in May 2011..hoping for 30+. I will be applying to DOs exclusively so I hope these school overlook the prereqs I took at the JC. What do you suggest?

UPDATE:

I spoke with a few schools today and here is what I found:

U of A - Tucson campus: The person I spoke with was very direct about the requirements. Community College pre-reqs are "not looked down upon in any way".

For non-residents, you must have an MCAT of 25 or greater, 3.25 uGPA, and a 3.35 in sGPA along with excellent ECs and LoRs in order to even be considered. If you fall short in any area with regard to numbers only, you're automatically rejected.

For residents: Simply get a 22 or greater on the MCAT and they will consider you.

UConn: Very nice people here. They include grad work in their GPA calcs. Regarding Community College pre-reqs...it was somewhat of a non-issue but the person I spoke with said, "It's a possibility Community College may be viewed as less rigorous by the Committee, but if teamed up with MCAT scores of 30+, solid ECs and fantastic LoRs, your chances are just as good, so I encourage you to apply."

Essentially, a good MCAT score seems to offset the "Community College is not as rigorous" argument.

Albany Medical College: Had a fantastic time talking with them. They were friendly and completely open to all my concerns. They encourage diversity in every aspect, and love non-trads. Community College was a non-issue and they include all coursework, not just undergrad. I told them my numbers and concerns, and they mentioned the undergrad GPA will definitely come up in any interviews, but GPA upswings coupled with other strong components of the application can hold a lot of weight. Was told my chances were as good as anyone else if I were to apply.

University of Alabama: Nice people but won't budge much for people taking anything but the traditional path. They do not include Graduate work, and Community College work is viewed as "less than rigorous" and not encouraged. Undergrad GPA and MCAT hold 90% of the weight. After I got off the phone, I even got the notion undergrad GPA might hold more weight than the MCAT, although this is simply speculation.

The person I spoke with said, "Regardless of where you come from in your educational path, you're still going to be critiqued against people fresh from the university system who have extremely high numbers. We do not consider graduate work of any kind as a means to bolster GPA or compensate for early mistakes."

Won't be applying there!

University of Colorado, Denver: Was a bit of a difficult phone call since the person I spoke with seemed to be having a bad day. Strong preference is given for in-state applicants (75% of the most recent admissions were from CO). Most students are considered "non-traditional" and the Committee views the applicant's entire history including graduate work. Average MCAT is 32. Community College is a non-issue.

More updates coming soon.

 

[Catalystik]

More updates coming soon.

Great job! Keep it coming.

 

[Catalystik]

Quote:NO
This is not the consensus at SDN Catalystic.

I was not not making a general comment, BestDoctorEver, I was responding specifically to the OP, whose MCAT score proves sufficient rigor in coursework. Nontrad status also seems to inspire more openness to accepting any pathway of preparation. While some med schools have a distinct preference that one not have CC credits, especially in the prerequisites, they are in the minority. Lots of other schools will not look down on them. In fact, an SDNer last year got into Harvard with CC credits for half his college education. By following the admonition to "Apply broadly," one will inevitably hit some schools with an open atitude.

Of course, I am aware of the general consensus, and it is a good "general guide," but it is also true that not all CCs are created equal and that all students don't learn only what is taught in their class. When someone gets As at a CC and lower grades at a four-year, that casts a negative light on the rigor of the previous education. When someone continues to excel at the four-year, it suggests the student has a good, adaptive learning style. Thus, watching such trends is important. As is performance on standardized tests, like the MCAT, the great equalizer.

As an after note, BestDoctorEver, as another modifier of your low cGPA, don't underestimate the trumping power of your truly solid patient experience as a nurse. (sorry for the thread highjack, EE.)

 

[Catalystik]

EE,

Did UArizona confirm that they still consider grad level BCPM?

 

[EEtoMDorDO]

EE,

Did UArizona confirm that they still consider grad level BCPM?

Based on what they told me, they have an initial "hard screen" of undergrad cGPA and sGPA only.

For my situation, all of my pre-reqs were completed post bachelors, so none of them will be considered in the initial hard screen (ouch!). This is particularly frustrating because it's where I shine the most grade-wise on my application.

Once you've passed this tier, you'll then be considered based on other factors such as sGPA, Graduate work, and post-bacc work. Your Graduate science courses are factored into the BCPM GPA.

All in all it seems they have an interesting approach, but not a low-GPA friendly one. It seems you only get one chance to make an impression or you're out.

Keep in mind though, this "hard screen" only applies to non-residents! For residents, all that's needed to pass into the second tier of consideration is a 22 MCAT score.

So if you're a non-resident with less than a 3.2 cGPA and less than a 3.3 sGPA, it might be in your best interest to become a resident of Arizona first before applying if in fact U of A is a school you have your heart set on.

Hope this helps!

 

[Catalystik]

It's good to know all the nuances, like computer-filtered hard intial screening cutoffs. Saves money.

 

[EEtoMDorDO]

Hi Catalystik

Not that it matters much, but my initial GPA number crunch was incorrect. The actual GPAs are: cumulative: 3.23 and science 3.45. SMP performance not included here as it is graduate level.

Not the best numbers in comparison to my traditional counterparts, but 2 years of upward trend in full-time courses (GPA 4.0) in the sciences/prereqs and a 4.0 in a known SMP, I'm still hoping for allopathic admission somewhere.

I'm still putting together a list of my findings based on contacts with various allopathic schools. It made sense to make one larger and more informative post rather than 15 smaller ones. I'll post my results in the next week or two.

 

[Catalystik]

I'm still putting together a list of my findings based on contacts with various allopathic schools. It made sense to make one larger and more informative post rather than 15 smaller ones. I'll post my results in the next week or two.

I look forward to reading it!