New Arkansas School Pledges That No Graduate Misses Out On A Residency

[2021Doctor]

Groundwork has already started on site, which will include a 100,000-SF main building and several other buildings with an expected price tag of approximately $32 million. Parker, now the CEO of the newly named Arkansas Colleges of Health Education, said the opening date has been moved up a year to August 2016, and the college hired Ken Heiles as dean in May.

“Arkansas has a lot of virgin territory,” Edwards said. “Arkansas needs more primary care physicians in rural areas. To have other options for access to care is a good thing. Those rural areas need those physicians.”

Another asset the college will have is a program promised by the Degen Foundation of Fort Smith.

Degen — formerly the Sparks Foundation — has committed to paying hospitals and clinics the approximately $125,000 it costs to host a resident so that no graduate of the ACHE misses out on a residency. (Approximately 97 percent of graduates get residencies on their own, but those who don’t would otherwise have to wait a year before trying again.)

“Any student who comes into our school will pay a large amount of tuition, and if they can’t become a practicing physician, then we have both wasted their money and wasted our money,” said Tom Webb, Degen’s executive director, who served 16 years on the Sparks board of directors. “This isn’t idle talk. This is us living our mission.

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/art...pathic-med-schools-hope-to-fill-need?page=all

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[DermViser]

 

[SuckySurgeon7]

If someone offered my school millions of dollars in the form of GME guarantees, I'd advertise it, too. Most other D.O. schools are privately funded, and they're cropping up quickly, in part, because it's easier to get private funding than public funding. Less bureaucracy. Anyway, applying to a new school, M.D. or D.O., is a risk that's lessened by a millionaire's generosity.

 

[user3]

first year enrollment is already over 7,000. MD schools over 20,000. There are also countless FMG's. Total GME spots for ACGME (27k) and AOA are (2k) ~29,000. This margin is growing dangerously thin as new schools open. Unless we somehow allow only US students to match first (per the recent AOA HOD resolution), I worry we will start seeing more US students going unmatched.

 

[Mehd School]

I find it hilarious that the schools abbreviation in ache. Ha.

And secondly, I find this impressive. The school seems like it's off on the right foot. It will really sweep me off my feet if they leave out bogus cranial and chapmans points (and others...) from their education, but that's just wishful thinking.

 

[D4C]

I find it hilarious that the schools abbreviation in ache. Ha.

And secondly, I find this impressive. The school seems like it's off on the right foot. It will really sweep me off my feet if they leave out bogus cranial and chapmans points (and others...) from their education, but that's just wishful thinking.

Doubtful as it's represented on COMLEX

 

[Mehd School]

Doubtful as it's represented on COMLEX

Ah, that's a good point. It's really too bad.

 

[user3]

150 is the planned class size. If training one resident costs $125,000 per year it would cost ~$56 million total to train each class (assuming 3 yrs of GME). They can't actually be planning on spending $56+ million/year, unless I'm missing something.

 

[EMDO2018]

Welp, ACGME residencies will take MD grads first. Let the DOs and FMGs battle it out in the hunger games for the few remaining spots.

 

[hallowmann]

150 is the planned class size. If training one resident costs $125,000 per year it would cost ~$56 million total to train each class (assuming 3 yrs of GME). They can't actually be planning on spending $56+ million/year, unless I'm missing something.

First off, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, if you read it, they say things like 97% of graduates get GME anyways, so basically they want to "fill the gap" and cover GME funding for the remaining 3% (<$625k/yr). Plus who knows how long that'll last.

Welp, ACGME residencies will take MD grads first. Let the DOs and FMGs battle it out in the hunger games for the few remaining spots.

Right, because the 975 MD seniors and 864 MD grads didn't want to match, while the 2000+ DOs that matched ACGME last year just got lucky with the scraps.

Programs pick the residents they like best. Being a DO makes you less competitive, but it's not like we're sitting around waiting to see what the MDs left over.

 

[EMDO2018]

First off, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, if you read it, they say things like 97% of graduates get GME anyways, so basically they want to "fill the gap" and cover GME funding for the remaining 3% (<$625k/yr). Plus who knows how long that'll last.



Right, because the 975 MD seniors and 864 MD grads didn't want to match, while the 2000+ DOs that matched ACGME last year just got lucky with the scraps.

Programs pick the residents they like best. Being a DO makes you less competitive, but it's not like we're sitting around waiting to see what the MDs left over.

Probably aiming to high-ortho, optho, etc

 

[D4C]

Probably aiming to high-ortho, optho, etc

0/10

 

[67552931811]

0/10

Lol.

 

[user3]

VCOM-Auburn (160)
NYITCOM-Arkansas (115)
ACHE (150)
BCOM (150)
OU-HCOM Cleveland (50, though I favor this expansion)

so if everything goes to plan, 625 new DO spots opening between 2015-2016.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[user3]

Odd, considering the average matriculant stats for both MD and DO continue to rise. And, no, your n=8 sample size of people who got in with such stats does not constitute as significant evidence.

average MCAT for DO students rose a whopping 0.02 from 2012 to 2013. same GPA.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[user3]

Wrong, again. GPA increased. Rise = increase; thus, regardless of how meaningless you perceive it to be, it did indeed rise. Also, not very scientific to look at one year- try extrapolating the data over a 4 or 5 year span.

1. splitting hairs. GPA was nearly the same. MCAT nearly the same.
2. average encompasses a wide range of stats. below average =/= not competitive. How far below the average competitiveness (>50% chance of acceptance) begins is where we might disagree. I make my estimations based on experience of SDN and MDapps. I do not go by whims.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[SuckySurgeon7]

Aaaaaand getting back on track...

first year enrollment is already over 7,000. MD schools over 20,000. There are also countless FMG's. Total GME spots for ACGME (27k) and AOA are (2k) ~29,000. This margin is growing dangerously thin as new schools open. Unless we somehow allow only US students to match first (per the recent AOA HOD resolution), I worry we will start seeing more US students going unmatched.

I think the possibility of private funding for residencies is an interesting idea. While I loathe the idea of putting any more debt burden on med students, having someone pay privately for a residency funding spot could open up a lot of opportunities. Probably would only work for the high-paying specialties that could pay off the extra interest and loan accumulation.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Like I said before the other thread got locked...this sounds like lip service to me.

a) A lack of funding isn't what keeps grads from getting spots.

b) The ACGME already doesn't allow "self-pay" or self-funded residencies. Having a private party pay for your residency sounds awfully similar and I'd be interested to see what the ACGME says about such a proposal.

c) Sounds like a huge potential COI if this guy is essentially offering a 125K per year bribe to programs to take the schools' graduates.

First off, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, if you read it, they say things like 97% of graduates get GME anyways, so basically they want to "fill the gap" and cover GME funding for the remaining 3% (<$625k/yr). Plus who knows how long that'll last.

What he said didn't really make any sense. If the goal is to prevent ACHE grads from going unmatched, offering to fund residents who fail to match doesn't fix that. They've already failed to match, and the reason they didn't match was not due to their funding status. And a program can't just magically create a new residency slot if you give them $125K - their number of slots are approved by the ACGME. There are some rare instances where programs choose not to fill due to funding issues (i.e. they are approved for more slots than their GME cap from medicare) - I suppose these are what he is talking about. But again I'm not sure that forking over the cash is going to help align unmatched students with those slots, and I'm not even sure the ACGME would allow it.

Plus. If you knew that you could potentially get free bonus funding for one of these students for a slot that you would otherwise not be able to fill (due to a lack of funding from medicare and other sources) - wouldn't you actually be disincentivized from ranking the ACHE student to try and snatch them up in the scramble?

 

[SuckySurgeon7]

Like I said before the other thread got locked...this sounds like lip service to me.

a) A lack of funding isn't what keeps grads from getting spots.

b) The ACGME already doesn't allow "self-pay" or self-funded residencies. Having a private party pay for your residency sounds awfully similar and I'd be interested to see what the ACGME says about such a proposal.

c) Sounds like a huge potential COI if this guy is essentially offering a 125K per year bribe to programs to take the schools' graduates.




What he said didn't really make any sense. If the goal is to prevent ACHE grads from going unmatched, offering to fund residents who fail to match doesn't fix that. They've already failed to match, and the reason they didn't match was not due to their funding status. And a program can't just magically create a new residency slot if you give them $125K - their number of slots are approved by the ACGME. There are some rare instances where programs choose not to fill due to funding issues (i.e. they are approved for more slots than their GME cap from medicare) - I suppose these are what he is talking about. But again I'm not sure that forking over the cash is going to help align unmatched students with those slots, and I'm not even sure the ACGME would allow it.

Plus. If you knew that you could potentially get free bonus funding for one of these students for a slot that you would otherwise not be able to fill (due to a lack of funding from medicare and other sources) - wouldn't you actually be disincentivized from ranking the ACHE student to try and snatch them up in the scramble?

I didn't know they outright forbid people from self-funding residency, but I support that. It keeps the integrity of the profession alive. I've heard of several programs that basically shut down because the hospital wanted to fund a different in-house residency or just allocate the funds elsewhere, and I thought this might provide a third option.

To your last point, I completely agree with your logic. If they didn't match the first go around, there's probably some red flags or other non-monetary reason that they didn't match. And if money could 'solve' that problem, then the system would be broken.

 

[darklabel]

There are a ton of spots in FM and IM for DO's in both AOA and ACGME and people always say "Well DO's have a mission statement of producing primary care physicians." Its always funny seeing that go out the window once OMS-1 starts for a majority of DO students. Problem with this school (like a lot of other new DO (and some MD) schools cropping) is students will claim they want to fulfill the school's mission, but then try to match into something competitive the minute they're accepted. I don't entirely blame them since its hypocritical for a school to advocate for primary care while accepting an enormous class of 162 and probably charging high tuition.

Truthfully, we as medical students should just be glad to start as early as possible.

 

[hallowmann]

There are a ton of spots in FM and IM for DO's in both AOA and ACGME and people always say "Well DO's have a mission statement of producing primary care physicians." Its always funny seeing that go out the window once OMS-1 starts for a majority of DO students. Problem with this school (like a lot of other new DO (and some MD) schools cropping) is students will claim they want to fulfill the school's mission, but then try to match into something competitive the minute they're accepted. I don't entirely blame them since its hypocritical for a school to advocate for primary care while accepting an enormous class of 162 and probably charging high tuition.

Truthfully, we as medical students should just be glad to start as early as possible.

The whole system is an issue. A lot of people go into the specialties for the paycheck. I've said it before, but if PCPs were getting paid specialty money (or even just somewhat closer to it) or if med students didn't take out loans, we'd see way more people doing primary care.

 

[darklabel]

The whole system is an issue. A lot of people go into the specialties for the paycheck. I've said it before, but if PCPs were getting paid specialty money (or even just somewhat closer to it) or if med students didn't take out loans, we'd see way more people doing primary care.

Yeah, I would like to explore general IM more, but my debt load scares the crap out of me. I'm sure there are many other students who feel the same way. If IBR had a guarantee that it will stay and forgive loans after 25 years of payment, then maybe more people (like me) would consider primary care positions.

 

[hallowmann]

Yeah, I would like to explore general IM more, but my debt load scares the crap out of me. I'm sure there are many other students who feel the same way. If IBR had a guarantee that it will stay and forgive loans after 25 years of payment, then maybe more people (like me) would consider primary care positions.

You're not alone. Not at all.

 

[user3]

The whole system is an issue. A lot of people go into the specialties for the paycheck. I've said it before, but if PCPs were getting paid specialty money (or even just somewhat closer to it) or if med students didn't take out loans, we'd see way more people doing primary care.

hallowmann- what is your opinion on DO schools being tuition-driven? On one hand, our schools obviously still produce competent physicians. But then why does the LCME so strictly prohibit this?

Anyway, perhaps my biggest complaint with DO schools is they too often feel more like $$ making operations and NOT enough like legitimate, genuine institutions of learning. It hurts our image.

 

[hallowmann]

hallowmann- what is your opinion on DO schools being tuition-driven? On one hand, our schools obviously still produce competent physicians. But then why does the LCME so strictly prohibit this?

Anyway, perhaps my biggest complaint with DO schools is they too often feel more like money-making operations and NOT enough like legitimate, genuine institutions of learning.

All places of higher education are money making operations. Its just the nature of the beast right now. Very few are out there to make a more educated society for some higher purpose. I don't think it matters that DO schools get most of their money from tuition. It's not a great thing, because there's always this incentive to charge more, but it's not like DO tuition is really higher than MD tuition (if you compare private to private).

I have close connections with a very good (top 20) MD school. Its a money-making operation. Sure, the majority of the operation isn't funded off of their high tuition (~$45k), but how do they make their money? Improving the medical education? Nope. They did it by hiring a bunch of researchers (PhDs and MD/PhDs) that spend most of their time writing grant proposals, and barely any, if any, time in a classroom. That doesn't improve education. It improves research (which is certainly valuable), and it helps make their students more competitive at university residencies, but it doesn't really improve their medical education in medical school.

The one thing that honestly does bother me though (besides the crazy costs of higher education nowadays) is for-profit US med schools. I don't think they should exist. It's one thing for a non-profit med school to be cutting almost $1 million checks to their president, but its another thing altogether for that to be the primary motive of the entire organization.

With a non-profit, the money has to go into the school, which should ideally be making the school better. With a for-profit, the goal, the end all and be all is making a profit for the owners. I don't think that is compatible with how we should view medical education in this country. I have nothing against RVU students or grads, but I can't say I'm a fan of Tien or the system. I also don't like that more are opening up.

 

[user3]

All places of higher education are money making operations. Its just the nature of the beast right now. Very few are out there to make a more educated society for some higher purpose.

I agree with this. But they (DO schools) could at least make it less painfully obvious, what with things like a 10th branch campus of Touro, or massive opening class sizes.

 

[DermViser]

Welp, ACGME residencies will take MD grads first. Let the DOs and FMGs battle it out in the hunger games for the few remaining spots.

Says the guy who would have been doing DO, based on his name EMDO.

 

[hallowmann]

I agree with this. But they (DO schools) could at least make it less painfully obvious, what with things like a 10th branch campus of Touro, or massive opening class sizes.

Haha, fair enough.

 

[bajastapler]

Welp, ACGME residencies will take MD grads first. Let the DOs and FMGs battle it out in the hunger games for the few remaining spots.

I agree w/ you - to an extent - but at the end of the day the person with the better CV is going to get the spot.

 

[darklabel]

I agree w/ you - to an extent - but at the end of the day the person with the better CV is going to get the spot.

Not that I disagree with you, but medical students (at least in my class) are taking note and making sure to up their CVs along the way for residency. It's a low tier MD school, but i'm sure many other schools are noticing and trying harder than ever before knowing that the residency crunch is real. 2017 and 2018 will be an interesting year for matching.

 

[W19]

I agree w/ you - to an extent - but at the end of the day the person with the better CV is going to get the spot.

It should be that way in a perfect world, but it ain't... Look how many DO matched GS in the last 2 years... GS is something that is relatively easy for even low tier MD...

 

[Postictal Raiden]

It should be that way in a perfect world, but it ain't... Look how many DO matched GS in the last 2 years... GS is something that is relatively easy for even low tier MD...

I'm welling to bet that a good number of the 139 DO's that matched AOA GS spots last year could have matched ACGME had they pass on applying to AOA residencies.

Regardless, we can't draw any conclusions without having the data to show the number of DOs applied to each specialty.

 

[Goro]

BCOM??????

VCOM-Auburn (160)
NYITCOM-Arkansas (115)
ACHE (150)
BCOM (150)
OU-HCOM Cleveland (50, though I favor this expansion)

so if everything goes to plan, 625 new DO spots opening between 2015-2016.

 

[W19]

I'm welling to bet that a good number of the 139 DO's that matched AOA GS spots last year could have matched ACGME had they pass on applying to AOA residencies.

Regardless, we can't draw any conclusions without having the data to show the number of DOs applied to each specialty.

You really think that the majority of DO students would prefer to go to an AOA GS over an ACGME GS...

 

[NurWollen]

You really think that the majority of DO students would prefer to go to an AOA GS over an ACGME GS...

The way the match is timed, with the AOA match happens before the ACGME match. You can apply to both, but if you match successfully in the AOA match you are automatically withdrawn from the ACGME match. So student, even very competitive applicants, who are going for competitive specialties often forego the ACGME match so that they can have their best shot at matching somewhere in their desired specialty. People might rather have an ACGME spot than and AOA spot, but they would much, much, much rather have an AOA spot than no spot. This will affect the number of people applying ACGME.

 

[user3]

BCOM??????

Burrell COM (New Mexico)
also forgot, UIW (160 students)

all in all, ~800 more DO students come fall 2016 if everything goes to plan.

 

[hallowmann]

Burrell COM (New Mexico)
also forgot, UIW (160 students)

all in all, ~800 more DO students come fall 2016 if everything goes to plan.

OK this is starting to get a little out of hand. Is it seriously like 4 new schools in 1 year? I thought it was crazy when there were 3.

EDIT: Just checked COCA and all are still applicant status and none are pre-accreditation status. UIW hasn't moved, but BCOM and ACHE both applied this year. We'll see what happens, but this isn't quite a guarantee yet.

 

[hallowmann]

OK, after looking through COCA, it looks like the following is happening:

1) BCOM is going for pre-accreditation status in Dec (so it very well may open its doors in the fall of 2016)

2) A report on OU-HCOM's additional Cleveland site will likely reveal it ready for business

3) KCUMB is applying to open up a branch campus in Joplin, MO

4) NYIT's branch in Jonesboro, AR is on the table

5) RVU-COM is moving forward with it's Cedar City, UT branch campus

So yeah, it's very possible there will be 5 new schools in 2016...

 

[user3]

OK, after looking through COCA, it looks like the following is happening:

1) BCOM is going for pre-accreditation status in Dec (so it very well may open its doors in the fall of 2016)

2) A report on OU-HCOM's additional Cleveland site will likely reveal it ready for business

3) KCUMB is applying to open up a branch campus in Joplin, MO

4) NYIT's branch in Jonesboro, AR is on the table

5) RVU-COM is moving forward with it's Cedar City, UT branch campus

So yeah, it's very possible there will be 5 new schools in 2016...

Well if that's true, it should be great news for all the 3.0/23 folks.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

OK, after looking through COCA, it looks like the following is happening:

1) BCOM is going for pre-accreditation status in Dec (so it very well may open its doors in the fall of 2016)

2) A report on OU-HCOM's additional Cleveland site will likely reveal it ready for business

3) KCUMB is applying to open up a branch campus in Joplin, MO

4) NYIT's branch in Jonesboro, AR is on the table

5) RVU-COM is moving forward with it's Cedar City, UT branch campus

So yeah, it's very possible there will be 5 new schools in 2016...

time for COCA to die

 

[D4C]

time for COCA to die

They need to pump the breaks a little.

 

[hallowmann]

time for COCA to die

COCA cant stop places from applying, they can only make the requirements more stringent (which they did in the 2013). My guess is there are some loopholes that make applying for a branch way easier than applying for a new school. Pretty soon every DO school will have 2-3 branch campuses. They need to look into those...

Also, I'm really not sure how these places expect to fulfill the 98% GME placement rate. Starting new residencies? Or are they just hoping that they'll edge out IMGs from ACGME spots?

If they start in 2016, all programs will be ACGME accredited when their first class goes to residency... so maybe it's the latter.

 

[user3]

They need to pump the breaks a little.

We've only been complaining about this on sdn for about...the past 10 years or so

 

[Postictal Raiden]

COCA cant stop places from applying, they can only make the requirements more stringent (which they did in the 2013). My guess is there are some loopholes that make applying for a branch way easier than applying for a new school. Pretty soon every DO school will have 2-3 branch campuses. They need to look into those...

Also, I'm really not sure how these places expect to fulfill the 98% GME placement rate. Starting new residencies? Or are they just hoping that they'll edge out IMGs from ACGME spots?

If they start in 2016, all programs will be ACGME accredited when their first class goes to residency... so maybe it's the latter.

I don't know man. This is risky. I'm all for increasing the ratio of practicing DO's, because power is in numbers, but not at the cost of having hundreds of American medical graduates go unmatched every year. I'm not a big fan of increasing the number of residency spots either. With the increasing involvement of midlevel practitioners, upping the number of residency spots to accommodate the projected number of American graduates and thousands of IMGs will very quickly saturate the market, ruining the profession for everybody.

 

[hallowmann]

I don't know man. This is risky. I'm all for increasing the ratio of practicing DO's, because power is in numbers, but not at the cost of having hundreds of American medical graduates go unmatched every year. I'm not a big fan of increasing the number of residency spots either. With the increasing involvement of midlevel practitioners, upping the number of residency spots to accommodate the projected number of American graduates and thousands of IMGs will very quickly saturate the market, ruining the profession for everybody.

Nobody wants to see AMGs go without GME. I honestly don't know what's going to happen. This is getting out of hand though.

I really didn't think this expansion run would last add long as it did. Even MD schools are still expanding, but they're supposed to be done by 2016.

 

[user3]

COCA cant stop places from applying, they can only make the requirements more stringent (which they did in the 2013).

Yep. Sherman anti-trust act, baby.