New Medical School at University of Virgin Islands

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You have made some arguments with great support. But you have also made a few with lack of support and completely wrong assertions. To deny this would be disengenuous. Just look at your second post in this thread. You're claiming an accredited school are St. Croix would make a mockery of the standards - how so? If they meet the standards. You've claimed that this is a "problem" for the LCME, because of it's geographical location in the caribbean? You've said PR is an "exception," but not according to any LCME rule that exists. You have claimed PR is included, because it's "huge" and has "infrastructure." Where might I find this on the LCME website? I see it included because it is a part of the US. You're applying international LCME policy to domestic LCME policy. You claim this is a political nightmare for the LCME because of a medical school like the other Caribbean schools would be on the island, when in fact the medical school in question would be affiliated and a part of an already established American university.

It's true, we're running in circles. I won't be surprised one way or the other if they are accredited.

But there is one thing I'm certain of: If they are not accredited, it will have nothing to do with the fact that the school is affiliated with UVI on St. Croix.
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ReeseC said:
You have made some arguments with great support. But you have also made a few with lack of support and completely wrong assertions. To deny this would be disengenuous. Just look at your second post in this thread. You're claiming an accredited school are St. Croix would make a mockery of the standards - how so? If they meet the standards. You've claimed that this is a "problem" for the LCME, because of it's geographical location in the caribbean? You've said PR is an "exception," but not according to any LCME rule that exists. You have claimed PR is included, because it's "huge" and has "infrastructure." Where might I find this on the LCME website? I see it included because it is a part of the US. You're applying international LCME policy to domestic LCME policy. You claim this is a political nightmare for the LCME because of a medical school like the other Caribbean schools would be on the island, when in fact the medical school in question would be affiliated and a part of an already established American university.
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I've answered all of these already. Again, I invite you to re-read my posts. Can I back these up with precedent? No. Of course not. There is no precedent. And, that's part of the point.

I've stated my reasons why I believe the LCME, both concrete and abstract, won't accredit this school. Again, you personally may not agree with those reasons, but I understand (maybe) a little better about how the game is played. And, it is a game. I don't think you appreciate that aspect of this. The LCME simply will do everything in their power not to accredit this school. It would make a mockery, as I already stated, of everything the LCME and AAMC stands for.

ReeseC said:
But there is one thing I'm certain of: If they are not accredited, it will have nothing to do with the fact that the school is affiliated with UVI on St. Croix.
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It will have EVERYTHING to do with this.

-Skip
 
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If it ever happened it would probably be liking applying to a Puerto Rico US Med School, Just as hard to get accepted.
 
laricb said:
If it ever happened it would probably be liking applying to a Puerto Rico US Med School, Just as hard to get accepted.
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Forget that. If it happens, I'll be applying to be faculty there!

-Skip
 
Enjoyed your discussion, guys. I'm here on the ground, and wanted to give anyone who cared an update. My girlfriend and I both are at the university, and the President, David Hall, is working hard to make UVI a world class institution. Basically, we have a very corrupt Government. Honestly, it makes Chicago, DC, Pittsburgh (insert your corrupt local government here) look very, very tame. Anyways, they are doing everything they can to stop this from going through. St. Croix is not doing so well, and the final decision was to have the classrooms built on St. Thomas, and some kind of simulation center on St. Croix. The electorate on St. Croix is furious because the medical facilities over there are legitimately 3rd world, and many are interpreting the decision as St. Thomas getting "more." Sensing an opportunity, a senator has started raising hell about the, incredibly generous, 30 million dollar gift. Like many transactions of that size, they don't just dump the money into an account, and the agreement is 10 million up front plus a 20 million endowment. It's also dependent on a 10 million dollar loan from the Virgin Islands. This has been passed and signed by a Governor who, surprise, surprise, is rumored to be on the shortlist for a position inside the school. They kept the terms of the agreement secret and the a particular senator is calling corruption and demanding a re-vote on what is now a hot button issue right before election day. Yikes, and the thing is they do arbitrarily, like illegal things "re-votes" and the budget is 65% pension, etc, etc. Anyways, don't hold your breath ;]

Edit for clarity: The senator from St. Croix has a sort of argument from ignorance thing she's attempting. Like, "I didn't know about this endowment thang, gimme my vote bak" (her accent)
 
Interesting. Keep us posted. (Still not holding my breath...)

-Skip
 
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FYI... as of right now (today, Pearl Harbor day +73 years), they are still "applicant" status. They've paid their $25K fee. And, they are awaiting further direction. It's been at least 5 months.

Still not holding my breath... (otherwise, I would've croaked long already).

-Skip
 
It's been a few months since this thread has had anything in response,

I guess I just have a simple question has anyone heard anything else about the school (med school) at UVI? Has it made any progress?
 
They are still "applicant" status. I seriously doubt they will ever get past this point.

Here's why:

1) UVI already has an affiliation with Boston University to get interested students from the island who want to pursue a medical degree a pathway to get to medical school.

2) The amount of infrastructure they will be required to build is a multi-million dollar prospect, and is staggering. This alone will make it not financially viable.

3) They will have to maintain their accreditation, which will require a stream of qualified candidates to fill the classroom seats. So, unlike the current Caribbean schools, they will be heavily scrutinized in how they recruit and retain students.

4) Potential future graduates will still have the "stigma" (if you will) of having gone to this school by some GME programs, despite the fact that it would be an LCME school. The only material difference for the graduates will be that they can skip the ECFMG requirements.

I just don't see this as a financially smart or viable option. And I'm still not holding my breath...

-Skip
 
Here's the latest news: http://uvivoice.net/2014/11/20/uvi-board-approves-school-of-medicine-documents/

We'll see what happens from there.

Skip Intro said:
They are still "applicant" status. I seriously doubt they will ever get past this point.

Here's why:

1) UVI already has an affiliation with Boston University to get interested students from the island who want to pursue a medical degree a pathway to get to medical school.

2) The amount of infrastructure they will be required to build is a multi-million dollar prospect, and is staggering. This alone will make it not financially viable.

3) They will have to maintain their accreditation, which will require a stream of qualified candidates to fill the classroom seats. So, unlike the current Caribbean schools, they will be heavily scrutinized in how they recruit and retain students.

4) Potential future graduates will still have the "stigma" (if you will) of having gone to this school by some GME programs, despite the fact that it would be an LCME school. The only material difference for the graduates will be that they can skip the ECFMG requirements.

I just don't see this as a financially smart or viable option. And I'm still not holding my breath...

-Skip
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Skip, your points 1 and tw2o are totally valid, as far as 3 and 4 go: don't be ridiculous. This is going to be a fully accredited US school - they will have no problem attracting good candidates. It may not be at the level of most USMD schools, but it will easily settle along with DO schools and other HBCUs. It's easy to clip add a school to your application.

And point 4... what? As if the "stigma" of Ross or Saba are because they are geographically located in the Caribbean? The stigma of those schools are that they are where students go when they can't get into school in the US and they're strictly for-profit enterprises. So what "stigma" would UVI and Ross share? PDs aren't stupid - they won't be confused when a app from a UVI student comes across their desk. The stigma will be that it's a new school - that's it.
 
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No one is 100% certain that the UVI school will not become a for-profit model, first off. Not that this is even really relevant in any argument for-or-against any particular school. This is now allowed by the LCME and AAMC.

http://www.lcme.org/orggovmodels.pdf

The planned medical school in Martinsville, VA will be for-profit, and one of its primary aims will be to attract students away from the Caribbean pathway.

Secondly, even if such as school is successfully established, it's primary aim is not going to be to cater to students wanting to go offshore in the first place.

A medical school in the Virgin Islands would enhance the quality of healthcare, help address the nation’s and Territory’s anticipated physician workforce shortages in the future, help populate the physician workforce in the VI and Caribbean with the regions’ own residents and citizens, and contribute to economic development.
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http://www.uvi.edu/news/articles/2014/12_126_medscho.aspx

So, while I have no clue what their admissions criteria will be, I think there will be a stigma in the eyes of some program directors if students go down there. When I was at Ross, we actually had three students transfer from Puerto Rican school into my class because they did not feel they could otherwise get a good residency placement in the U.S. mainland. Of course, this happened over 12 years ago.

Thirdly, getting approval and maintaining approval are two different things. Just ask the University of Saskatchewan or Oral Roberts University, the former who is currently on probation and the latter closed in 1986 after graduating only 333 doctors. Also, numerous prospective schools have made it to the applicant stage without getting approved.

Everything else I have reasoned on this thread still stands. As such, still not holding my breath...

-Skip
 
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Skip Intro said:
Not to me. Many schools have tried to get an exception and get accredited. Hasn't happened to date. And, Puerto Rico is the exception because basically it's the "51st state" of the U.S.

Personally, I wouldn't enroll in this school unless and until this happens. We'll see.

-Skip
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This wouldn't be an exception. The school is on the Virgin Islands, which is a U.S. territory. Any school located in Guam, the Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, or the Northern Mariana Islands would be eligible for LCME accreditation without an exception being required.
 
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I'm curious what PR school students transferred from. I'd be willing to bet that all three students came from San Juan Bautista, a school in PR that would not have been LCME accredited 12 years ago - and yeah, in that case, Ross probably would have been a better option. Now all PR schools, including SJB, are LCME accredited and transferring from one of them to a Caribbean school would be incredibly foolish.

You also highlighted a piece of their mission - "help populate the physician workforce in the VI and Caribbean with the regions’ own residents and citizens,"

I would like to highlight this point - "help address the nation’s and Territory’s anticipated physician workforce shortages in the future." The nation it is referring to is the USA.

You're right - they won't be catering to students who want to go offshore... because no student should want to go offshore. They'll be catering to students that want to get into an LCME program (i.e. - all American students), like every other medical school in the country.
 
Skip Intro said:
http://www.uvi.edu/news/articles/2014/12_126_medscho.aspx

So, while I have no clue what their admissions criteria will be, I think there will be a stigma in the eyes of some program directors if students go down there. When I was at Ross, we actually had three students transfer from Puerto Rican school into my class because they did not feel they could otherwise get a good residency placement in the U.S. mainland. Of course, this happened over 12 years ago.

Thirdly, getting approval and maintaining approval are two different things. Just ask the University of Saskatchewan or Oral Roberts University, the former who is currently on probation and the latter closed in 1986 after graduating only 333 doctors. Also, numerous prospective schools have made it to the applicant stage without getting approved.

Everything else I have reasoned on this thread still stands. As such, still not holding my breath...

-Skip
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It would be crazy for a student at a LCME accredited school to transfer carib unless they were failing... I won't buy that if they say they transfer from PR school to Ross or SGU because 'they did not feel they could otherwise get a good residency placement in the U.S. mainland' These students were probably failing... You did not actually buy that! I worked at some hospitals in FL and I saw a lot of these PR physicians that are ortho, general, uro surgeons from PR and they all told me they did not have any issues getting into these competitive residencies...
 
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You guys have a difficult time understanding that being part of the USA doesn't mean you are included in the USA. States have rights enumerated by the constitution that cannot be stripped by the Federal government. Unincorporated territories are subject to the whim of Congressional vote and can have their status changed at any time.

In the law of the United States, an unincorporated territory is an area controlled by the government of the U.S. "where fundamental rights apply as a matter of law, but other constitutional rights are not available".[1]
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All modern inhabited territories under the control of the federal government can be considered as part of the "United States" for purposes of law as defined in specific legislation;[4] but, the judicial term "unincorporated" was coined to legitimize the U.S. late 19th-century territorial acquisition without citizenship and their administration without constitutional protections temporarily until Congress made other provisions.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_territories_of_the_United_States

The laws and interpretation are at the whim of the government and, by extension, the LCME. Are they going to change them at this point? Not likely. Are they going to find a reason to not approve this school on some technicality or otherwise? Probably.

I'm still not holding my breath.... but I am warming the oven and getting my crow-gun out. Now just waiting for someone in Guam to apply for an LCME school now.

[And, no, I don't recall which Puerto Rican school they transferred from. But, you might be, and probably are, right. Even so, the school was located in part of the U.S. and was not at that time accredited (for whatever reasons) by the LCME. The fact that that can happen underscores a bigger point I was making: getting accreditation and maintaining accreditation are two separate things.]

Lastly, if we want to continue to toss around anecdotes, I know plenty of Ross and SGU grads who are right now professors at various U.S. medical schools teaching U.S. medical students and residents. They also landed equally prestigious residencies. However, that's not at all what this discussion is about. So, don't get sidetracked.

-Skip
 
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@Skip Intro ... It's not about anecdotes. It just does not make sense that someone who was not failing would leave a LCME accredited schools to transfer to a carib school. As far as LCME accreditation, I don't know what they can do, and I think these people have given themselves too much power over US allo schools.
 
W19 said:
@Skip IntroIt just does not make sense that someone who was not failing would leave a LCME accredited schools to transfer to a carib school.
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It was not one person. It was three. I'm sorry I can't further recollect from which school, but I will stipulate and concede that it was likely San Juan Batista.

Don't miss the bigger point.

-Skip
 
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On May 1, 2014 Skip said:

Skip Intro said:
.... but I understand (maybe) a little better about how the game is played. And, it is a game. I don't think you appreciate that aspect of this. The LCME simply will do everything in their power not to accredit this school. It would make a mockery, as I already stated, of everything the LCME and AAMC stands for.
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This is dead in the water. Thanks for posting the link, aProgDirector.

-Skip
 
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