New Poll: Change D.O. to M.D.O. ? - Yes or No -

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Serenade, get it right before matriculation: Its "flung to the breeze the banner of osteopathy" - 1874 (June 22nd).

What exactly did this event entail tho... It's not even the day he opened Kcom right?

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[hallowmann]

What exactly did this event entail tho... It's not even the day he opened Kcom right?

Ah, another exam question: ASO received its charter on May 10th 1892.

I think the date was more just signifying when he decided officially that conventional medicine (of the time) was not valuable and osteopathy was real medicine.

 

[zoner]

I think the few headaches that will bee caused by the name change will be offset in the long run by the benefit it will bring. We are medical doctor and not just doctor of the bones. It's as simple as that. Hence we won't have to explain to every single person I meet that is not involved in the medicine world that we are also medical doctor and not just bone doctors. There are reasons why companies change logos and change names even though the costs are high and immediate effects minimal.

 

[RueTay]

If you don't want to be a DO then DONT GO TO DO SCHOOL. Complaining about your degree after the fact shows your lack of foresight. DOs should be proud of their degree. You sound inferior trying change your degree to become more like MDs, which of course you are not (inferior). Yes, some patients will be skeptical of your credentials... But YOU decided to avoid the mainstream medical training for whatever reason by going to DO school. You undoubtedly all wrote eloquent personal statements about why you WANTED to become a DO. Fortunately for you there are plenty of patients who know about your degree and willseek your services over MD.

If you change your degree, people will just laugh at you

 

[ILEMres]

you guys aren't MD's... period. Half your education is wasted on learning OMM. You also take a much easier version of the USMLE. If you want to be called MD, go to an MD school and take the Steps.

Yeah I took your USMLE. Scored higher on it than on the comlex (90th percentile on the USMLE). I also out scored all of my peers (who are MDs) during residency on the Inservice exam. Oh, and I got a 90 on my written boards. That's the ABEM written, not AOBEM. Go back to your mother's basement.

 

[DOFutureEM22]

Yeah I took your USMLE. Scored higher on it than on the comlex (90th percentile on the USMLE). I also out scored all of my peers (who are MDs) during residency on the Inservice exam. Oh, and I got a 90 on my written boards. That's the ABEM written, not AOBEM. Go back to your mother's basement.

Nice post! Obviously these guys who come to these forums to gripe and moan have a chip on their shoulder. I'm sure this guy barely passed his boards or matched into a crappy program and feels the need to make himself feel better by putting others down. My advice: don't waste your time with him.

 

[happypremed1]

Friends, this isn't just about pubic recognition - it is also about international distinction as physicians. There are too many schools around the world that offer a non-medical D.O. degree, and too many countries that do not allow U.S. D.O's to practice medicine.

Too many countries? Check your list, dude. There are only a handful of countries that restrict DOs from practicing medicine. For many reasons, I'm willing to put down my bet that you don't want to practice medicine in those countries such as Zimbabwe, South Africa, Indonesia. As DOs, you can still practice medicine on mission trips in those countries. They just don't want to see you settle down and open a private practice.

 

[happypremed1]

you guys aren't MD's... period. Half your education is wasted on learning OMM. You also take a much easier version of the USMLE. If you want to be called MD, go to an MD school and take the Steps.

This is utterly false. Please go look all the DO schools curriculum for your own education. We learn all the things that the MD students learn plus OMM. Actually, we get more education than you do.

 

[cbtk18]

Does the MBBS degree receive this much attention? I'm being facetious...

Anyways, there are a lot of good points here. I think the biggest differentiation between DO and MD (on a professional level) is the regulatory board exams and licensure. I think a big step that has been taken recently is the melding of the residency programs. This a very good thing, again on a professional level.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

From the patient and general public stand point... I really think that there needs to be more educating the public on the DO practices and what we are. Honestly, I think that should come from the medical schools themselves. Maybe a community project for 1st years. One of the big reasons why I applied so heavily to DO schools and accepted a DO school was the fact that I respect the philosophy of the DO. Meaning that I think that MD's can be overly eager to prescribe chemistry and treat things aggressively with interventions (disclaimer: In most cases, that is the correct path). Yet, I do feel that MD's don't try to utilize less invasive and less chemically oriented approaches to care of more minor things. "Oh, you have a cold... let's put you on this, this, and this... even though it's a virus and really I'm only treating your symptoms. You have high blood pressure, well let's see what kind of medicine we can dig up for you instead of me telling you to go out and exercise and decrease your salt intake. Your you have headaches... well maybe we should stent that 2 mmHg gradient lesion of your IJ..." True story.

I get what serenade is saying, but I don't think we should give up the DO. You are going to find it very confusing when you get into a hospital setting and trying to figure out the differences btw all the specialties and what they do differently from one another and how similar some of them practice, but their patients know. For example: critical care intensivist, critical care surg, critical care pulmonology, and critical care anesthesiology... in the CCU, ICU, MICU, SICU, etc... there is no distinction. Maybe that's not the best way to describe it, but I hope you can follow.

This post reveals the ignorance of many do students when it comes to osteopathic "distinction"

 

[Dr. Zombie]

This post reveals the ignorance of many do students when it comes to osteopathic "distinction"

Yeah I agree.

 

[RueTay]

Does the MBBS degree receive this much attention? I'm being facetious...

Anyways, there are a lot of good points here. I think the biggest differentiation between DO and MD (on a professional level) is the regulatory board exams and licensure. I think a big step that has been taken recently is the melding of the residency programs. This a very good thing, again on a professional level.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

From the patient and general public stand point... I really think that there needs to be more educating the public on the DO practices and what we are. Honestly, I think that should come from the medical schools themselves. Maybe a community project for 1st years. One of the big reasons why I applied so heavily to DO schools and accepted a DO school was the fact that I respect the philosophy of the DO. Meaning that I think that MD's can be overly eager to prescribe chemistry and treat things aggressively with interventions (disclaimer: In most cases, that is the correct path). Yet, I do feel that MD's don't try to utilize less invasive and less chemically oriented approaches to care of more minor things. "Oh, you have a cold... let's put you on this, this, and this... even though it's a virus and really I'm only treating your symptoms. You have high blood pressure, well let's see what kind of medicine we can dig up for you instead of me telling you to go out and exercise and decrease your salt intake. Your you have headaches... well maybe we should stent that 2 mmHg gradient lesion of your IJ..." True story.

I get what serenade is saying, but I don't think we should give up the DO. You are going to find it very confusing when you get into a hospital setting and trying to figure out the differences btw all the specialties and what they do differently from one another and how similar some of them practice, but their patients know. For example: critical care intensivist, critical care surg, critical care pulmonology, and critical care anesthesiology... in the CCU, ICU, MICU, SICU, etc... there is no distinction. Maybe that's not the best way to describe it, but I hope you can follow.

Wow. You go CaptainDO. You and your exercise prescription. yes!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This post reveals the ignorance of many do students when it comes to osteopathic "distinction"

I think you're just sad that your mind control cranial requires physical contact while the MDs use gas and pharma based mind control.

 

[VisceralFlame]

you guys aren't MD's... period. Half your education is wasted on learning OMM. You also take a much easier version of the USMLE. If you want to be called MD, go to an MD school and take the Steps.

14 credit hours / 280 credit hours is close to half lol

 

[Chinchillin']

Honestly, is this really a big problem? I'm not convinced that there are significant difficulties with patient perception or trust.

Many osteopathic physicians I have spoken to say most patients have no idea that they are a DO. It simply never comes up unless someone randomly notices it. Furthermore, there really are patients out there who prefer to have a DO over an MD. Maybe this preference is based on dubious distinctions, but its true nonetheless. Then, finally, there is the small minority who refuse to see a DO because they misunderstand their training or reject it. Then again, patients can discriminate based on whatever the hell they want, including which specific allopathic school you went to.

So, is this movement just about ego? if so, then I say No. If it's more than that, I would want to see some concrete evidence to back it up first.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't think it's exactly ego. Just that in an era of degrees like DOM or NMD or even DNP, we need to really consider what we're communicating to patients when we don't possess a MD.

I think in the end we can avoid issues by simply increasing PR and having medical centers/ hospitals inform patients about degrees and the workers they have. That way MD,
DOs, are grouped together and non-medical physicians are grouped elsewhere.

 

[zoner]

For example, you think some average Joe that live in LA who wants to get plastic surgery in Beverly hills is going to go to a plastic surgeon that has DO title after their name when the list consists predominantly of other M.D. plastic surgeons? I don't think so. In a hospital setting I don't think it matters but when it comes to specialties where people can choose and be selective, I think it's not fair to be discriminated based solely on not having the title MD.

Have you guys noticed when MDs are marketing their specialized pvt practices, they always make sure to put M.D.as part of their marketing logo but when DOs do it, they always hide it. I think this speaks volume.

 

[DocVapor]

For example, you think some average Joe that live in LA who wants to get plastic surgery in Beverly hills is going to go to a plastic surgeon that has DO title after their name when the list consists predominantly of other M.D. plastic surgeons? I don't think so. In a hospital setting I don't think it matters but when it comes to specialties where people can choose and be selective, I think it's not fair to be discriminated based solely on not having the title MD.

So we need to change the whole degree because you postulate that osteopathic plastic surgeons can't make it in Beverly Hills? I get what you are trying to say, but but the whole "it's not fair" attitude is childish and isn't doing ANY DO's any favors. If you have a problem with it, suck it up and try and change people's prejudices the right way by providing excellent medical care. Plenty of DO's all over the country are doing that right now and the word is spreading.

Have you guys noticed when MDs are marketing their specialized pvt practices, they always make sure to put M.D.as part of their marketing logo but when DOs do it, they always hide it. I think this speaks volume.

This just isn't true.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Point being is that the degree simply for a number of reasons fails to communicate the careers intentions and specialization.

Whether or not this needs to be fixed through better education about careers or whether state boards need to help push naturopaths and orientals or etc. There needs to be a better idea in the nation about what DOs do.

 

[Osteotastic]

MDO Medical Doctor of Osteopathy. The best solution.

Stop shooting your DO selves in your DO feet. Get out in the real world and experience job market bias then talk to me about the DO difference.


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[NurWollen]

MDO Medical Doctor of Osteopathy. The best solution.

Stop shooting your DO selves in your DO feet. Get out in the real world and experience job market bias then talk to me about the DO difference.


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Care to be specific? What 'job market bias" have you experienced?

 

[Osteotastic]

Care to be specific? What 'job market bias" have you experienced?

The time after residency when you put on your big boy pants (or girl) and look for a job and find that in rural areas of need employers love your DO but in the desirable cities - though yes some people do get jobs, you are considered second rate as a DO and in the big cities and academia people do not care about your "DO difference".

We need to show the world that we studied medicine and put an M in there for the love of God. Its a statement about who we are and what we practice. Medicine... not just Osteopathy.


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[Jwalker]

The time after residency when you put on your big boy pants (or girl) and look for a job and find that in rural areas of need employers love your DO but in the desirable cities - though yes some people do get jobs, you are considered second rate as a DO and in the big cities and academia people do not care about your "DO difference".

We need to show the world that we studied medicine and put an M in there for the love of God. Its a statement about who we are and what we practice. Medicine... not just Osteopathy.


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Do people still say osteopathy? That term's archaic. It's all about osteopathic medicine now.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

The time after residency when you put on your big boy pants (or girl) and look for a job and find that in rural areas of need employers love your DO but in the desirable cities - though yes some people do get jobs, you are considered second rate as a DO and in the big cities and academia people do not care about your "DO difference".

We need to show the world that we studied medicine and put an M in there for the love of God. Its a statement about who we are and what we practice. Medicine... not just Osteopathy.


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Plenty of DOs in NYC, Philly, Chicago and I haven't heard the bias being rampant post-residency as you are alluding to. Those isolated events are limited post residency and even more so that ALLLLLL residents are gonna be ACGME trained.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Do people still say osteopathy? That term's archaic. It's all about osteopathic medicine now.

Next year it will be the osteopathic paradigm of clinical medicine.

 

[Fergison2]

I agree that MDO is the best current option as change to MD across the board will probably not happen for a decade or so. This is the best in the meantime to separate us from European and old timey DOs and indicate an M for Medical training.

 

[Jwalker]

Next year it will be the osteopathic paradigm of clinical medicine.

I'll take you up on this bet.

 

[hallowmann]

I'll take you up on this bet.

"Osteopathic Medicine and Wizardry" - I'm callin it.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Can someone explain the bet. I'm not understanding lol

 

[lmcdavidkim]

I was thinking about this the other day too. But to convert from D.O. to M.D.O. seems to imply that D.O. are inferior... then again, seeing that non-phyician osteopathy school exists outside the US must confuse the heck out of people

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The time after residency when you put on your big boy pants (or girl) and look for a job and find that in rural areas of need employers love your DO but in the desirable cities - though yes some people do get jobs, you are considered second rate as a DO and in the big cities and academia people do not care about your "DO difference".

We need to show the world that we studied medicine and put an M in there for the love of God. Its a statement about who we are and what we practice. Medicine... not just Osteopathy.


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Did you have an ACGME residency? Do you practice a speciality that isn't DO friendly?

 

[rjgennarelli]

This thread is embarrassing.

 

[DocEspana]

"Osteopathic Medicine and Wizardry" - I'm callin it.

I usually reference myself as an 'osteopathic magician' to my friends.

 

[JStew32]

I like the MDO idea. I think MDO gives a more accurate representation.

"M for Medicine" Count me in!

 

[GUH]

Do people still say osteopathy? That term's archaic. It's all about osteopathic medicine now.

The American Academy of Osteopathy is still a (big) thing in the DO community.

 

[Freedoc]

I am for this change. There was a time when I was not but I am now. I too see the advantages to this after going through an acgme residency. I feel that MDO is a beautiful melding and encompassing of the degree I worked so hard for that involved laboring and toiling sweating and great amounts of effort perfecting Medicine. The MDO keeps the O for osteopathic and has the M for what I worked so hard for; to be a Medically trained Physician.

 

[sleepdoc17]

Poll is now closed after 1 month and 223 respondents:

Majority of those polled chose for degree to be changed from D.O. to M.D.O.

51.1% vs 48.9%

M.D.O. is preferred.

 

[Dharma]

MDO is rubbish. Let's make it even more confusing?

Regardless, it doesn't matter. I shouldn't have replied, because this thread should die!

 

[BMSc2DO]

Oh god. At least make it MD-O or something. Not MDO. Wtf is that?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

MDO is rubbish. Let's make it even more confusing?

Regardless, it doesn't matter. I shouldn't have replied, because this thread should die!

Agreed.

 

[NurWollen]

This just in: being an MA is actually more prestigious and advanced than being a PA. It's all about the 'M'

 

[Osteotastic]

Poll is now closed after 1 month and 223 respondents:

Majority of those polled chose for degree to be changed from D.O. to M.D.O.

51.1% vs 48.9%

M.D.O. is preferred.

Nice!

 

[Otto of the Silver-Hand]

Poll is now closed after 1 month and 223 respondents:

Majority of those polled chose for degree to be changed from D.O. to M.D.O.

51.1% vs 48.9%

M.D.O. is preferred.

Very interesting... After I completed my training one of the hospitals that I applied for privileges was non-teaching community hospital. The hospital had DOs and MDs on staff. There was a group of 5-6 old-time MDs that always kept among themselves. The other MDs didn't think much of their clinical skills ( and often ridiculed them behind their backs) and the DOs just wouldn't associate with them. They were specialists before but since neither MD nor DO would refer to them, they eventually became GPs. At first, I thought they were USFMGs, but then I learned: they were DOs that bought California MDs. Just food for thought.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Very interesting... After I completed my training one of the hospitals that I applied for privileges was non-teaching community hospital. The hospital had DOs and MDs on staff. There was a group of 5-6 old-time MDs that always kept among themselves. The other MDs didn't think much of their clinical skills ( and often ridiculed them behind their backs) and the DOs just wouldn't associate with them. They were specialists before but since neither MD nor DO would refer to them, they eventually became GPs. At first, I thought they were USFMGs, but then I learned: they were DOs that bought California MDs. Just food for thought.

So the MD and DO discriminated against the old timers? Did the old timer MDs discriminate against DOs first?

 

[Osteotastic]

Very interesting... After I completed my training one of the hospitals that I applied for privileges was non-teaching community hospital. The hospital had DOs and MDs on staff. There was a group of 5-6 old-time MDs that always kept among themselves. The other MDs didn't think much of their clinical skills ( and often ridiculed them behind their backs) and the DOs just wouldn't associate with them. They were specialists before but since neither MD nor DO would refer to them, they eventually became GPs. At first, I thought they were USFMGs, but then I learned: they were DOs that bought California MDs. Just food for thought.

This is much different from the accounts I have come across.

For instance. In medical school, we had a guest speaker who was a neurosurgeon from that era. He graduated from Kirksville I believe. He said he was 2nd in his class. He told us that when the MD was offered in CA he and several of his co-hort "jumped at the chance" and came to CA. He ended up having a very prominent, satisfying and lucrative career. He said that it was probably the best professional decision he'd ever made. I will search my old medical school notes for his name but it would be like finding a needle in a haystack at this point.


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[ChrisGriffen]

MDO is preferred by people who use this site, the overwhelming majority being pre-meds and med students. If the pool included more of the 90K practicing DOs, it would probably look a little different. I would assume that if the entire DO community were polled, it would lean more towards not changing the letters.

You gotta remember that the school gives you your degree, not the AOA. A practicing DO would not be able to change their letters, because the degree they were awarded upon graduation was DO. The only way to change the degree would be for the AOA and licencing boards to say they accept the X degree as well as DO and MD, then schools could offer it to their current and future students. There is no way that I am aware of to retroactively change the degree of past graduates.

To speak on the issue of DOs "hiding" their degree while MDs advertise it, there was a good thread a while back called "DO vs Doctor". I am pretty sure the consensus was that to the public face, a good amount of DOs put "Dr. Smith" on their white coat, business cards, etc... rather than put "Smith D.O.", whereas MDs usually put "Smith M.D." instead of "Dr. Smith".

 

[Osteotastic]

MDO is preferred by people who use this site, the overwhelming majority being pre-meds and med students. If the pool included more of the 90K practicing DOs, it would probably look a little different. I would assume that if the entire DO community were polled, it would lean more towards not changing the letters.

You gotta remember that the school gives you your degree, not the AOA. A practicing DO would not be able to change their letters, because the degree they were awarded upon graduation was DO. The only way to change the degree would be for the AOA and licencing boards to say they accept the X degree as well as DO and MD, then schools could offer it to their current and future students. There is no way that I am aware of to retroactively change the degree of past graduates.

To speak on the issue of DOs "hiding" their degree while MDs advertise it, there was a good thread a while back called "DO vs Doctor". I am pretty sure the consensus was that to the public face, a good amount of DOs put "Dr. Smith" on their white coat, business cards, etc... rather than put "Smith D.O.", whereas MDs usually put "Smith M.D." instead of "Dr. Smith".

Apparently in cases of degree changes in other fields such as DDS to DMD at several schools, the schools will allow retroactive change to alumni by issuing the new degree to them for a small processing fee.




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[NurWollen]

MDO is preferred by people who use this site, the overwhelming majority being pre-meds and med students. If the pool included more of the 90K practicing DOs, it would probably look a little different. I would assume that if the entire DO community were polled, it would lean more towards not changing the letters.

You gotta remember that the school gives you your degree, not the AOA. A practicing DO would not be able to change their letters, because the degree they were awarded upon graduation was DO. The only way to change the degree would be for the AOA and licencing boards to say they accept the X degree as well as DO and MD, then schools could offer it to their current and future students. There is no way that I am aware of to retroactively change the degree of past graduates.

To speak on the issue of DOs "hiding" their degree while MDs advertise it, there was a good thread a while back called "DO vs Doctor". I am pretty sure the consensus was that to the public face, a good amount of DOs put "Dr. Smith" on their white coat, business cards, etc... rather than put "Smith D.O.", whereas MDs usually put "Smith M.D." instead of "Dr. Smith".

I just want to add that the school can't just offer a given degree because they feel like it. Degree granting authority is bestowed by the state government, not an accrediting agency. So even if the AOA were on board, you'd have to change legislation in most of the 50 states.

 

[Osteotastic]

I just want to add that the school can't just offer a given degree because they feel like it. Degree granting authority is bestowed by the state government, not an accrediting agency. So even if the AOA were on board, you'd have to change legislation in most of the 50 states.

The AOA has agencies and lawyers in all 50 states. All it would take would be for them to give the order and in each state the process could be initiated.


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[ChrisGriffen]

The AOA has agencies and lawyers in all 50 states. All it would take would be for them to give the order and in each state the process could be initiated..

And then the states would tell those agencies to shove it, because there are a lot of things more important than putting an M in the initials of some DOs who are sad that sometimes patients dont know what a DO is

 

[Sublimazing]

Apparently in cases of degree changes in other fields such as DDS to DMD at several schools, the schools will allow retroactive change to alumni by issuing the new degree to them for a small processing fee.




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That's partially due to the fact that the DDS/DMD difference is completely intangible...and the only difference you could ever possible find would be a rewording of a school's mission statement