PhD/PsyD New Psy.D program

[erg923]

I was aware this was coming, although I had no part in its development. I dont know how a feel about it. I'm not sure we need any more doctoral programs in psychology period, much less psyd programs. EKU has always had a solid department, so I am at a bit of a loss as to why they didn't make this a Ph.D program with solid funding that leaned towards the practice side.

Moreover, although I know Marshall has one like this, how do you assure you will be fullfilling this mission/goal? You would have to accept people at their word regarding where they want to work and stay for their careers, BEFORE they even begin their careers. People's interests and priorities change during grad school, of course. What's to stop this programs' grads from going out on intenrship never to return, or flocking to the cities like everyone else typically does? Plus, the Spalding Psy.D. program in Louisville is already pushing out 25-30 psychologists every year. Where are they all going? And whats to stop this programs' graduates from doing the same?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, SEPT. 20, 2014
EKU’S NEW DOCTORAL PROGRAM IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY TO ADDRESS
ACUTE HEALTH CARE NEED, ESPECIALLY IN RURAL KENTUCKY
RICHMOND, Ky. – The newest doctoral degree program at Eastern Kentucky University will address a significant health care void, particularly in rural Kentucky.
The University’s newly-approved Psy.D. program in Clinical Psychology, designed to prepare psychology practitioners, will focus on preparing practitioners to work in underserved rural areas when it launches in Fall 2015. The curriculum will provide opportunities for specialized training in substance abuse, mental health administration, school-based mental health, suicide risk assessment and prevention, and working with traditionally underserved populations, including veterans and their families, adults and children with developmental disabilities, and individuals who are deaf and hard of hearing. Additional specialized training opportunities will include forensic psychology and applied behavior analysis.
This will be the first practice-oriented Psy.D. program at a public university in Kentucky. Spalding University in Louisville offers the only other Psy.D. program in the Commonwealth; the University of Kentucky and University of Louisville offer research-oriented Ph.D. degrees in the field.
In its 2009 Grading the States report, the National Alliance on Mental Illness gave Kentucky’s mental health system, along with four other states, an “F.”
“There is a great need for clinical psychologists, particularly in rural areas,” said Dr. Dustin Wygant, director of clinical training, who will head the program. “The specialization in rural mental health will prepare graduates to work in the areas experiencing the greatest need for mental health services. In addition, the program will increase the number of qualified doctoral-level supervisors required by Kentucky law to oversee the practice of master’s level psychologists. The scarcity of doctoral-level supervisors has been a significant problem for rural mental health agencies for many years.”
The program builds on EKU’s long-standing and highly successful master’s degree program in clinical psychology, which likewise has a long history of preparing students to provide behavioral health care services in traditionally underserved regions. The doctoral students will benefit from many partnerships the Department of Psychology already enjoys with sites providing practicum and internship opportunities.
The program and its students will also benefit from the guidance and support of a Psy.D. Program Advisory Board comprised of professionals representing such area agencies, organizations and institutions as the Federal Medical Center, Kentucky Department of Corrections, Pathways Inc., The Adanta Group, Lexington VAMC, Bluegrass Comprehensive Care, Eastern State Hospital and the EKU Counseling Center.
Wygant said the emphasis on rural mental health “will be attractive to students in our region who wish to learn advanced clinical skills and remain in the Commonwealth. Each year between eight and ten graduates of our current M.S. Clinical Psychology program go on to doctoral programs, typically Psy.D. programs. Most have ties to Kentucky and would welcome the opportunity to earn a doctorate at EKU.”
Wygant noted a recent survey of EKU psychology majors that indicated nearly 80 percent anticipate going on to graduate school. “A number of these students either wish to pursue graduate work locally or are place bound and thus unable to leave the region. Offering the Psy.D. degree at EKU will serve these students.”
The presence of doctoral students, working under the supervision of the faculty, will also allow the EKU Department of Psychology to expand mental health services currently offered through its own Psychology Clinic, which provides affordable, evidence-based services to adults, children and families in the University’s service region and beyond, and open additional opportunities for undergraduate clinical psychology co-op placements.
Dr. Robert Brubaker, chair of EKU’s Department of Psychology, added that the new program will “provide another avenue for doctoral-level education for Kentuckians.”
EKU’s Psy.D. degree program, approved by the Kentucky Council on Postsecondary Education on Sept. 16, will accept 12 students in its inaugural cohort in Fall 2015, and students may begin to apply in December. For more information, contact Dr. Dustin Wygant at [email protected] or 859-622-6796.
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clinical psychology doctorate.doc/9-19-14/jdw
file: Dept. of Psychology

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[OneNeuroDoctor]

EKU may not have received approval for adding additional PhD program from the State Board of Education but having the only public university psyD was approved. A number of rural small universities have been denied PhD program in smaller states due to these programs being in the Large Flagship University programs.

EKU has had a well known MS clinical psych program and I was accepted there back in the 80's but chose to stay closer to home. Many of their MS graduates complete the doctorate at other universities.

With the PsyD model of training most states would benefit from having training locally so people can stay in state rather then moving to states that have PsyD programs. Oklahoma and Kansas and other states with a severe shortage of psychologist need to start up PsyD programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

If I were in that state, I think I'd rather do something to entice qualified personnel to come to the state (salary, benefits, etc) rather than get a bunch of what would likely be more poorly trained individuals considering it'd most likely be an alliant/argosy type place. There is no national shortage of psychologists, it's not a supply issue, the rural areas have a shortage of every kind of personnel.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

If students could stay in state locally to complete the PsyD then there would not be as much of a need for professional schools. It only make sense to have the training locally as in Kentucky rather than California.

 

[WisNeuro]

Kansas has training programs already. If people are leaving it's about keeping them there. Why would they stay if you simply added more training programs?

 

[erg923]

Kentucky. But yes, thats my point exactly.

Spalding already has a supposed focus on "serving underserved populations." But like most most programs, people go where the jobs, and the money, are.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Kansas does not have PsyD program and the smaller universities have attempted to add PhD program with no success. Kansas only has KU and WSU doctoral clinical Psych programs.

 

[erg923]

Kansas does not have PsyD program and the smaller universities have attempted to add PhD program with no success. Kansas only has KU and WSU doctoral clinical Psych programs.

He meant KY, not kansas

 

[WisNeuro]

It still doesn't answer the question of why would new students stay if other students are leaving anyway? Also, relatedly, why is this different than any other rural area? I feel like this would just further flood the saturated markets and do nothing for the markets with shortages. Last, at least in my subfield, there are no shortages from what I see, I don't remember the last time I saw a job opening in KS or KY.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, KS or KY, the same questions apply to both, doesn't make sense to add more supply if it's a retention issue.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

To be fair to Kansas…KU has three very good Ph.D. programs within the university. WSU has an active program. I don't recall if K-State has a program. Across the border is UMKC, who frequently has people stick around on the MO side of the border.

*edit*

Whoops…I wrote this before the above post(s) were clarified.

I don't believe KS is hurting for ppl as I know multiple psychologists who took other gigs waiting for spots to open up at KU, one of the VAs, etc. The two closest VAs are mostly staffed by KU & UMKC grads.

 

[WisNeuro]

A s a point of reference, APA has a grand total of 5 job listings for KS. There are currently 0 for npsych. Where is the evidence for this vast shortage?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A s a point of reference, APA has a grand total of 5 job listings for KS. There are currently 0 for npsych. Where is the evidence for this vast shortage?

As of about a year ago there were still a large backlog of C&Ps and neuropsych evals in the KS VA hospitals (Witchita and Levenworth). Across the border there were also shortages for the Kansas City VA. I'm not sure if that is still the case, but it was hard to get positions approved to cover the backlog.

 

[erg923]

The article also neglected to mention that both the University of Louisville and the University of Kentucky have counseling psychology Ph.D programs. Louisville's in particular produces 8-10 psychologists per year who are going into practice vs academics. So, we really already have 5 doctoral programs in applied psychology in this state.

So, this state produces about 50 psychologist per year, as has done so for well over a decade. I currently see 1 opening for a psychologist in a rural area KY.

 

[WisNeuro]

As of about a year ago there were still a large backlog of C&Ps and neuropsych evals in the KS VA hospitals (Witchita and Levenworth). Across the border there were also shortages for the Kansas City VA. I'm not sure if that is still the case, but it was hard to get positions approved to cover the backlog.

True, but the C&P issue is a different monster and more of an institutional problem rather than a locality specific supply issue.

 

[cara susanna]

Most students have to move away for internship and post doc. They'd have been better off giving funding to create APA-accredited internships in that area imo.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I remember hearing that word on the street from nearby universities was that my (state flagship) graduate institution had used its hefty state legislative sway to put the nix on other folks developing clinical Ph.D. programs in the area. Thus, perhaps UK and/or other Kentucky universities felt that another Ph.D. (or just psychology in general) program wasn't needed. However, the Psy.D. might've been a loophole or presented less resistance.

Just a guess.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I remember hearing that word on the street from nearby universities was that my (state flagship) graduate institution had used its hefty state legislative sway to put the nix on other folks developing clinical Ph.D. programs in the area. Thus, perhaps UK and/or other Kentucky universities felt that another Ph.D. (or just psychology in general) program wasn't needed. However, the Psy.D. might've been a loophole or presented less resistance.

Just a guess.

Yes this is common in most states and frequently the state pays for providing professional in other states.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yes this is common in most states and frequently the state pays for providing professional in other states.

I don't know about most states, just the one in which I trained. I'd imagine it probably has to do with a variety of factors, including how powerful, popular, respected, and well-funded the flagship university is relative to other colleges and universities in the state.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Usually in small states like Kansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Arkansas where there is only one flagship University. Due to fund limitation the legislature will only approve clinical programs in the flagship university.

 

[WisNeuro]

Is this all just conjecture, or is there some kind of actual legislative decree here?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Is this all just conjecture, or is there some kind of actual legislative decree here?

In my case, it's mostly just conjecture (i.e., things I was told by faculty at other universities in the state in which I trained).

I don't know about any sort of widespread clamping down on clinical psych programs. I haven't heard about it happening anywhere else, but I also haven't really asked.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Is this all just conjecture, or is there some kind of actual legislative decree here?

informed conjecture?

I was told that in California the two state systems cannot have the same type of doctoral program in the same city. That is why San Diego State and UCSD share a clinical psych program and no cities have 2 public clinical psych programs. So, I do believe this is somewhat of a common rule that state schools attempt to reduce duplicate doctoral programs and increase diversity in offerings.

 

[WisNeuro]

Still seems like conjecture to me, I can name plenty of cities that have multiple clinical psych PhD's. Maybe there are a few jurisdictions where that is so, but it is far from universal, if true at all.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

All of theses programs are tied political with the legislature of each state. Most states with smaller population only have one Medical school and only one doctoral clinical psychology program.

Some of the larger population states have multiple college system as in California and Texas and typically due to resources there may only be one or two clinical psychology program at the doctoral level in each system. In Louisiana only LSU has the doctoral clinical psychology program and the other public universities have MS or PhD in Counseling Psychology or Marriage and family therapy. Arkansas is similar as UA has the only doctoral level clinical psychology program.

 

[WisNeuro]

Show me where it says that smaller cities can only have one doctoral program. I'd be willing to buy it if there was some proof, but it just seems like anecdotal "someone once told me..." stuff.

 

[erg923]

I would suspect that your question will be met with yet another a story about this dude that he knew once.... 25 years ago...

 

[smalltownpsych]

This sounds like the type of solution that leads to a degradation of standards and compensation. All in the name of helping the "under-served". I work in an "under-served" area and what the people could benefit from are more jobs not more Walmart-quality "psychologists". I know I over use the quote thing but how else do I convey my opinion that terms are often misused?

 

[erg923]

In all fairness, I would expect EKU to have high standards and solid training. But, yes, rural areas need many things, and more psychologists/psychiatrists services are sometimes the last thing they need.

 

[smalltownpsych]

In all fairness, I would expect EKU to have high standards and solid training. But, yes, rural areas need many things, and more psychologists/psychiatrists services are sometimes the last thing they need.

It's good to know that it will likely be a good program. I guess they wouldn't be like the FSPS. I have worked with at-risk youth and I think that we could get more mileage working with them effectively in these communities. I had some great experiences working collaboratively with a school principal in a small town with a high dropout rate, but had to leave to go where I could get paid more than a post-doc.

 

[cara susanna]

Actually, a university about 70 miles from mine had to ask the legislature for permission to start another clinical PhD program. I believe that they had to promise that they had a different focus and wouldn't seek accreditation from the APA.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm still curious as to where this comes from. Where is this codified? It still seems like hearsay.

 

[Ollie123]

Quite certain it happens. I believe we even have a board member on faculty at an institution where this was the case and they had to make a case they were sufficiently different from the other program (not going to out him since I'm not sure how comfortable he is revealing that here).

I doubt you are going to find a "law" anywhere saying this, but the interactions between public universities and the legislature/budget folks are heinously complicated. I suspect its more an issue of politics and budgetary tug-of-war than "We'll arrest you if you try to open another PhD program". This is all occurring at the state level so nothing will be systematic.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't doubt it maybe has happened at one point in time, but I'm skeptical as to the widespread nature. At best it's a state funding issue. Can't just have places popping up all willy nilly and wanting hundreds of millions in public funds. Regardless, it's a red herring issue in the debate. Opening up another alliant/argosy in Kansas and Kentucky will do nothing to alleviate the rural "shortages."

 

[Ollie123]

Oh we are agreed on that front. I don't think its a particularly widespread or problematic issue, just that it can and does occur. Most people move for school anyways. The problem is one of incentives, resources and frankly - interest. The argument we sometimes see boils down to "If we flood the market, eventually a couple folks will end up in rural health so we're helping!" but 1) Its incredibly short-sighted and 2) It won't work anyways.

There is a reason most of the FSPSs are in "desirable" locations. I don't think we'll be seeing Argosy opening a campus in rural Idaho anytime soon. Its probably not a viable business model for them.

 

[bmedclinic]

Note that less than 4 hours away, ETSU has a clinical psych phd program that is already APA accredited with one of the major emphasis being on rural care.

I think this program is likely unnecessary, but then again I think alot of psyD programs are unnecessary.

 

[erg923]

Actually, a university about 70 miles from mine had to ask the legislature for permission to start another clinical PhD program. I believe that they had to promise that they had a different focus and wouldn't seek accreditation from the APA.

Is that ND state? I thought I saw that they had a clinical science phd? I remember seeing that paired with that tiny little no name of a school and thinking, Damn! Hardass Scandinavian decedents out there on the Dakotas!

 

[erg923]

Note that less than 4 hours away, ETSU has a clinical psych phd program that is already APA accredited with one of the major emphasis being on rural care.

I think this program is likely unnecessary, but then again I think alot of psyD programs are unnecessary.

Marshall is 3 hours away from EKU and they have a psyd program with the exact same focus. And again, it's not like Louisville and Kentucky's counseling psych phd programs only attract local city slickers.

 

[cara susanna]

Is that ND state? I thought I saw that they had a clinical science phd? I remember seeing that paired with that tiny little no name of a school and thinking, Damn! Hardass Scandinavian decedents out there on the Dakotas!

Yup! They're clinical science whereas UND is scientist-practitioner so their argument was that the two wouldn't compete with each other. They've been hiring rising research rock stars to serve on their faculty, so I think they will be very appealing to prospective students who want to be researchers, especially if they get APA accreditation.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

Most of these supply and demand issues seem like they could be resolved if psychology acted like a real profession. Medicine does a better job of controlling the output of new physicians.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Most of these supply and demand issues seem like they could be resolved if psychology acted like a real profession. Medicine does a better job of controlling the output of new physicians.

No arguments here. There are already articles popping up about how the pharmacy school bubble is bursting; if psychology doesn't get our collective act together, we'll be next (or, as some would argue, we're perhaps already there).

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Still seems like conjecture to me, I can name plenty of cities that have multiple clinical psych PhD's. Maybe there are a few jurisdictions where that is so, but it is far from universal, if true at all.

But can you name a city that has more than one publicly funded clinical psych programs in separate universities (or more precisely public university systems)?

 

[WisNeuro]

Los Angeles UCLA, USC

Edit, scratch that, USC is private. But besides the point. It's not that there can't be more than one in a city. Rather the opportunity to have multiple public universities in one city is contained more by budgetary restrictions rather than some shadow government agreement that "There shall exist no more than one clinical psych PHD program in one city funded by the state!"

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I don't really think its shadowy. It seems to make sense (not to say its proof) that publicly funded programs would be diverse in their educational offerings. You are correct that publicly funded programs are also going to be established throughout a state and less likely to have 2 in the same city. But small states seem to have a similar setup.

The one exception I could think of is the CUNY system in NYC, which 3 clinical programs but two are unaccredited and are specialized for forensics (John Jay) and neuro (Queens).

 

[WisNeuro]

I think it's just more practical in nature than people are making it out to be. There is a lot of competition for dwindling education funds, so it's hard for two public universities to exist in most cities. Irrespective of training programs.

 

[Sgt_Pepper55]

Since I am one of the people who you guys are talking about, I feel I should speak about my thoughts on this. Just keep in mind I'm only an undergrad.

I am a senior at UK, and a lifelong resident of a rural Kentucky area. Originally I was pre-med, with an intent to practice in rural KY, but changed my designation because clinical psych seemed a much better fit for my interests than psychiatry. Right now I'm interested in good PsyD programs located relatively close, with good fit.

And although Kentucky will have 6 doctorate programs for Psychology in state, UK and UL clinical programs are huge research centers in the two biggest cities. And since one of the biggest problems in the state is substance abuse (particularly prescription meds) in the east, I don't imagine Counseling Psych being the best field to address those problems. Also, I'd guess they are referring to more severe mental illness than a Counseling psychologist would typically handle. Though I may be wrong on that.

That leaves only Spalding U (as previously stated a private school) and this upcoming public program for students interested in rural in KY. Granted Marshall is very close to KY's border, but still.

I guess I am somewhat happy about it because I am one of those people truly planning on practicing within rural KY. It's something I've been passionate about before coming into college, probably because I grew up in a household with a sufferer of mental illness and knew firsthand the difficulties present in a rural setting.

But, I'm also a little skeptical since the doctorate program is totally new, despite having a solid reputation for it's (soon-to-be-former) master's program. Furthermore, if (like some have said) the program intends to try and "convince" people to stay and practice in KY, I don't see that happening on any consistent basis. I don't really see how somebody from out-of-state or from the city would care about the area (or why they would be expected to?)

Probably the main reasons I'm happy about it, are my solid interests in rural mental health, and the fact that it's another place to apply (I doubt I have an application good enough and with good enough fit for UK/UL). Though that reasoning in itself is dangerous. Quality of training is the most important consideration.

 

[erg923]

Graduates from the two counseling programs are represented in many different settings within the state. There are 3 in my VA, including one working in our SUDTP. There is nothing about counseling psychology that makes one ill equipped in treating substance abuse, or any other clinical presentations really. I also know UofL counseling graduates at the Federal Correctional complex, some in various state correctional institutions, and at local neurorehab centers.

 

[Sgt_Pepper55]

Graduates from the two counseling programs are represented in many different settings within the state. There are 3 in my VA, including one working in our SUDTP. There is nothing about counseling psychology that makes one ill equpped from treating substance abuse, or any other clinical presentations really. I also know UofL counseling graduates at the Federal Correctional complex, some in avrious state corrctional institutions, and at local neurorehab centers.

Ah. This is one of those instances where I am not as knowledgeable on the subject. Like I said, only an undergrad.

Though I've been considering both counseling and clinical as a career as my main interest is psychotherapy, so I guess I'll have to dig a little deeper regarding UK's counseling program.

 

[PikminOC]

I was aware this was coming, although I had no part in its development. I dont know how a feel about it. I'm not sure we need any more doctoral programs in psychology period, much less psyd programs. EKU has always had a solid department, so I am at a bit of a loss as to why they didn't make this a Ph.D program with solid funding that leaned towards the practice side.

Moreover, although I know Marshall has one like this, how do you assure you will be fullfilling this mission/goal? You would have to accept people at their word regarding where they want to work and stay for their careers, BEFORE they even begin their careers. People's interests and priorities change during grad school, of course. What's to stop this programs' grads from going out on intenrship never to return, or flocking to the cities like everyone else typically does? Plus, the Spalding Psy.D. program in Louisville is already pushing out 25-30 psychologists every year. Where are they all going? And whats to stop this programs' graduates from doing the same?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, SEPT. 20, 2014
EKU’S NEW DOCTORAL PROGRAM IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY TO ADDRESS
ACUTE HEALTH CARE NEED, ESPECIALLY IN RURAL KENTUCKY
RICHMOND, Ky. – The newest doctoral degree program at Eastern Kentucky University will address a significant health care void, particularly in rural Kentucky.
The University’s newly-approved Psy.D. program in Clinical Psychology, designed to prepare psychology practitioners, will focus on preparing practitioners to work in underserved rural areas when it launches in Fall 2015. The curriculum will provide opportunities for specialized training in substance abuse, mental health administration, school-based mental health, suicide risk assessment and prevention, and working with traditionally underserved populations, including veterans and their families, adults and children with developmental disabilities, and individuals who are deaf and hard of hearing. Additional specialized training opportunities will include forensic psychology and applied behavior analysis.
This will be the first practice-oriented Psy.D. program at a public university in Kentucky. Spalding University in Louisville offers the only other Psy.D. program in the Commonwealth; the University of Kentucky and University of Louisville offer research-oriented Ph.D. degrees in the field.
In its 2009 Grading the States report, the National Alliance on Mental Illness gave Kentucky’s mental health system, along with four other states, an “F.”
“There is a great need for clinical psychologists, particularly in rural areas,” said Dr. Dustin Wygant, director of clinical training, who will head the program. “The specialization in rural mental health will prepare graduates to work in the areas experiencing the greatest need for mental health services. In addition, the program will increase the number of qualified doctoral-level supervisors required by Kentucky law to oversee the practice of master’s level psychologists. The scarcity of doctoral-level supervisors has been a significant problem for rural mental health agencies for many years.”
The program builds on EKU’s long-standing and highly successful master’s degree program in clinical psychology, which likewise has a long history of preparing students to provide behavioral health care services in traditionally underserved regions. The doctoral students will benefit from many partnerships the Department of Psychology already enjoys with sites providing practicum and internship opportunities.
The program and its students will also benefit from the guidance and support of a Psy.D. Program Advisory Board comprised of professionals representing such area agencies, organizations and institutions as the Federal Medical Center, Kentucky Department of Corrections, Pathways Inc., The Adanta Group, Lexington VAMC, Bluegrass Comprehensive Care, Eastern State Hospital and the EKU Counseling Center.
Wygant said the emphasis on rural mental health “will be attractive to students in our region who wish to learn advanced clinical skills and remain in the Commonwealth. Each year between eight and ten graduates of our current M.S. Clinical Psychology program go on to doctoral programs, typically Psy.D. programs. Most have ties to Kentucky and would welcome the opportunity to earn a doctorate at EKU.”
Wygant noted a recent survey of EKU psychology majors that indicated nearly 80 percent anticipate going on to graduate school. “A number of these students either wish to pursue graduate work locally or are place bound and thus unable to leave the region. Offering the Psy.D. degree at EKU will serve these students.”
The presence of doctoral students, working under the supervision of the faculty, will also allow the EKU Department of Psychology to expand mental health services currently offered through its own Psychology Clinic, which provides affordable, evidence-based services to adults, children and families in the University’s service region and beyond, and open additional opportunities for undergraduate clinical psychology co-op placements.
Dr. Robert Brubaker, chair of EKU’s Department of Psychology, added that the new program will “provide another avenue for doctoral-level education for Kentuckians.”
EKU’s Psy.D. degree program, approved by the Kentucky Council on Postsecondary Education on Sept. 16, will accept 12 students in its inaugural cohort in Fall 2015, and students may begin to apply in December. For more information, contact Dr. Dustin Wygant at [email protected] or 859-622-6796.
-30-
clinical psychology doctorate.doc/9-19-14/jdw
file: Dept. of Psychology

It's all about access to care, right?

 

[PikminOC]

Most of these supply and demand issues seem like they could be resolved if psychology acted like a real profession. Medicine does a better job of controlling the output of new physicians.

Medical school and residency training is also highly standardized by the ACGME and multiple board exams.