New York Ebola case

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Birdstrike,

I like Option #1, but considering the source countries cannot adequately treat patients, and the U.S. seems to be doing a pretty damn good job of it, wouldn't it be cruel to those volunteering to quarantine them in the host country where they don't have access to healthcare?

Option #3: Quarantine them until the ambulatory jet service can remove them to a better location, as was the case with Dr. Brantley.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that we'll strand our volunteer HCWs in Sierra Leone to fend for themselves.

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Since some of you have mentioned quarantine protocols & the like, what are your opinions about the recent self-quarantine for the nurse who is hitting the interview circuit (http://www.today.com/health/nurse-kaci-hickox-says-she-wont-obey-maines-ebola-quarantine-1D80251330)? Basic synopsis : entered New Jersey ---> put under mandatory quarantine ---> complained to the media ---> mandatory quarantine lifted ---> allowed to travel home to Maine ---> Maine determines self-quarantine necessary ---> complains to media.

From what I've seen/read (as a layperson), if symptoms don't manifest after 21 days the person is deemed ok. The nurse mentioned how the quarantines aren't "evidence-based," but without her providing additional info. regarding this it's hard for me to tell if she is making valid points or is just using buzzwords to get her own way.
 
"International MSF staff members commit to burdensome four-to-six week assignments in the Ebola-affected countries. The risk of being quarantined for 21 days upon completion of their work has already prompted some people to reduce their length of time in the field. Others will be less inclined to volunteer in the first place. This will present significant operational disruptions at the field level for MSF and other organizations, and lead to an overall shortage of desperately needed health workers, precisely when the Ebola outbreak is as out of control as ever.

As it is, MSF draws on a small pool of people with highly specific skill sets required in an Ebola setting. Further restricting access to that group of aid workers could have devastating consequences. Since March, MSF has sent more than 700 international staff to West Africa as part of its Ebola response.

Enhanced restrictions on returned aid workers in the United States could lead to similar measures being adopted in other countries, leading to an even greater impact on the ability to fight the outbreak in West Africa."
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/ebola-quarantine-can-undermine-efforts-curb-epidemic

Some HCWs go treat Ebola patients during the limited periods they have off from work and would have to reduce in-field time by quarantine time, others take unpaid leave and would suffer financial hardship if forced to stay away from work for 21 more days (Cuomo did say the State would pay those in quarantine if their employer did not, which is essential). If there are going to be quarantines, a more thought and resources have to go into how to limit the number of HCWs in quarantine, how to make the quarantines better for the HCWs and how to get more HCWs to Africa since quarantines will reduce the numbers going and their time in field. Maybe more military personnel and members of the uniformed PHS with civilian contractors providing backfill at military hospitals; maybe financial subsidies (cash, student loan forgiveness, etc.); maybe formal honors; maybe preferred future immigration status (just thought I'd push that button).

I agree that HCWs should be treated well, and offered paid time off etc. But this article, just like the others, fail to provide proof of the purported science.

"Medical science has demonstrated that asymptomatic people with Ebola infection do not transmit the virus. Ebola is also not an airborne virus, like cold or flu viruses. It is only transmitted through direct contact with an infected, symptomatic person’s body fluids, such as blood, vomit, and feces."

Again, I'm sorry where's this "science" showing me that someone's viral load is is zero when they have no subjective sx of ebola and that they don't shed ANY virus? Where's the "science" telling us precisely what those sx are and how to measure them? i.e does nausea before vomiting count, does a belly upset before diarrhea count? When is the moment that precisely someone becomes infectious? No one knows, stop using the word science, science has not answered this question.

Additionally, just because something is not airborne does not mean it is HARD to transmit. Per CDC website Ebola has been detected in "saliva, mucus, vomit, feces, sweat, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen." We can't be so naive as to say that a person with an early case of Ebola running around in public, working, socializing do not shed any of those fluids on to the glasses they drink from, the toilets they use, the treadmill they were running on etc. No one is saying that the chances are high to transmit ebola, but notice that NO one is saying the chances are zero, because they aren't.

"Furthermore, the risk of stigmatization of health workers is very real. It is imperative that the public maintains trust and confidence in all health workers. Medical professionals specializing in infectious diseases, such as tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS, do not face stigma and burdensome restrictions on their movements. "

First of all, the public has already lost trust and confidence in this government and the CDC's botched response in Dallas based on inaction. There is a reason why those exposed to TB and HIV/AIDs aren't stigmatized because those diseases don't have mortality rates that even come close to approaching Ebola's whopping 50% mortality rate. I would be surprised if there are EM employers who are OK with healthcare worker who has actively been exposed to Ebola for weeks to go straight back to work based on self reporting of symptoms alone. Additionally, if patients find out that their doctor just hopped off plane from Liberia after treating dying Ebola patients, I can bet you that there will be a decrease in census and media hysteria.

I can understand MSF's concerns - I think they should be acknowledged, I don't think that eliminating self quarantine or mandatory quarantine is the answer.




 
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Leaving the merits of her argument aside, she's squandering the good will she earned after NJ's awful treatment of her. Seems a bit unhinged.
 
Birdstrike,

I like Option #1, but considering the source countries cannot adequately treat patients, and the U.S. seems to be doing a pretty damn good job of it, wouldn't it be cruel to those volunteering to quarantine them in the host country where they don't have access to healthcare?

Option #3: Quarantine them until the ambulatory jet service can remove them to a better location, as was the case with Dr. Brantley.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that we'll strand our volunteer HCWs in Sierra Leone to fend for themselves.
What are you talking about that in the source countries they can't adequately treat such patients? The very volunteers that know the most about how to treat Ebola, are the ones there, treating Ebola in those source countries, which they do so st their own risk. They are the experts in treating Ebola. We aren't the experts. Less than one percent of the doctors and nurses in the US have ever treated Ebola. I bet the so-called experts you, xaelia and the others are referring to as "experts" have never donned an Ebola hazmat suit and gotten in the trenches to treat Ebola, either. Yet their word is unquestionable Gospel. The doctor in NYC was telling his doctors how to treat him. So don't tell me they "don't know how to treat Ebola over there." Of course they do. They're the only ones that really do. If that's your argument, that the United States is the only place Ebola can be effectively treated and that the United States is responsible for giving the highest level of medical care to all Ebola patients in the world, then you should be arguing to bring every single Ebola patient here. After all "a life is a life" isn't it? Yet you won't advocate bringing all Ebola patients here. Why, because that would expose US citizens to the risk of Ebola. Yet by your logic, the best way to protect US citizens is to treat Ebola at the source, and the only way to get Ebola patients adequate care is to bring them to the best medical care which is here. Your reasoning is circular.

It's not very contagious, but wear a hazmat suit.

The only way to keep Ebola out, is to bring it in.

Ebola volunteers must be brought here because it's the best place to treat Ebola and the "experts" are here, but there really over there.

"Science does not support quarantine," but just today the Obama administration announced all returning troops will be quarantined:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/29/politics/military-ebola-quarantine/

It's truly mind boggling to watch all of this unfold.
 
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Are you serious? You think it'd be better to be treated in Sierra Leone than in the U.S.?

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I was under the impression that the affected countries lacked the resources to give the best treatment available, (facilities and basics, not just manpower), and that many people were being treated in suboptimal conditions (no gloves, no IV's, sporadic electricity, lack of advanced lab testing.) Frontline had a mini-documentary on the subject a few weeks ago, and the conditions were deplorable.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you if the conditions in the affected countries allowed for better treatment than in the U.S. So it seems that the underlying assumption of your argument is really the root cause of any disagreement.
 
My argument isn't circular. It's the same argument that the New England Journal of Medicine put forward in its editorial a few days ago.

Ebola needs to be contained in the affected countries. We do not want to restrict the flow of supplies and personnel to those countries. We need MORE volunteers and involvement, not less, so a travel ban would be counterproductive in that it would allow the virus to gain a stronger foothold, before inevitably exporting itself to a larger population in similar conditions (Nigeria, India, etc.)Travel bans have been proven rather ineffective as means of containing outbreaks.

I am not against quarantine in the U.S. I said that a while back, that I think mandatory quarantine in the U.S. is a good compromise.

I am against quarantining HCW's in the affected countries, because that would be akin to sentencing them to death, and once we do that, no one will be incentivized to volunteer. This is operating under the assumption that health care in the U.S. is far superior to that in Sierra Leone, et. al.

New England Journal of Medicine:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe1413139
 
Are you serious? You think it'd be better to be treated in Sierra Leone than in the U.S.?

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I was under the impression that the affected countries lacked the resources to give the best treatment available, (facilities and basics, not just manpower), and that many people were being treated in suboptimal conditions (no gloves, no IV's, sporadic electricity, lack of advanced lab testing.) Frontline had a mini-documentary on the subject a few weeks ago, and the conditions were deplorable.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you if the conditions in the affected countries allowed for better treatment than in the U.S. So it seems that the underlying assumption of your argument is really the root cause of any disagreement.
No I don't think it's best to be treated in Sierra Leone. I was mirroring back your argument and your circular reasoning, which is, "It's inhumane to quarantine our volunteers in Sierra Leone at risk that they might end up being stranded and treated for Ebola there, yet it's it's okay to leave tens of thousand of locals 'stranded' there." If you and the experts think the only way to prevent Ebola from coming here is to knock it out at the source, and the only human way to do that without inhumanely "stranding" people is to bring them to the US for the best care, then you should want to bring all patients with Ebola to the US for medical care, not just US citizen volunteers. Yet you don't support that, because too many patients brought here with Ebola, put people in the US at risk. Which exposes the other flaw in your logic, that bringing Ebola patients here doesn't put Americans at risk.
 
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Okay. Got it. Well, that's just a straw-man, since the actual reason I've stated, as have others, that we don't want to strand our volunteers is that it will disincentivize the flow of volunteers, which will make the outbreak worse.

This could still be wrong (say, if it didn't actually disincentivize volunteers or our efforts weren't actually that helpful anyway), but it's not that people don't want to strand them merely because it's cruel (which it is, by the way).

I feel like you know that you are misrepresenting the argument and boiling it all down to some liberal do-goodery politically incorrect impulse, when in fact, all along, the refrain has been "Don't Stop the Flow of Personnel and Supplies to the Affected Regions".

There is a very real fear this gets into a large population where no amount of quarantining or travel bans will be able to stop its spread. That's why, we're told, they want to make sure volunteers can get to and from the affected regions safely.
 
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My argument isn't circular. It's the same argument that the New England Journal of Medicine put forward in its editorial a few days ago.

Ebola needs to be contained in the affected countries. We do not want to restrict the flow of supplies and personnel to those countries. We need MORE volunteers and involvement, not less, so a travel ban would be counterproductive in that it would allow the virus to gain a stronger foothold, before inevitably exporting itself to a larger population in similar conditions (Nigeria, India, etc.)Travel bans have been proven rather ineffective as means of containing outbreaks.

I am not against quarantine in the U.S. I said that a while back, that I think mandatory quarantine in the U.S. is a good compromise.

I am against quarantining HCW's in the affected countries, because that would be akin to sentencing them to death, and once we do that, no one will be incentivized to volunteer. This is operating under the assumption that health care in the U.S. is far superior to that in Sierra Leone, et. al.

New England Journal of Medicine:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe1413139
Your argument is circular as are the policies on this issue. Why do you need to contain Ebola in the affected countries?

"Because it's dangerous and could spread to other countries."

You're solution:

"Not to contain it, and allow cases in to other countries."
 
BBH2008, I'm done talking about Ebola. Are you sure you wanna give up that attorney gig, I think you'd be pretty good at it?
 
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I agree that HCWs should be treated well, and offered paid time off etc.
I discussed the effect of quarantines on volunteers, as described in this MSF quote:

"The risk of being quarantined for 21 days upon completion of their work has already prompted some people to reduce their length of time in the field. Others will be less inclined to volunteer in the first place. This will present significant operational disruptions at the field level for MSF and other organizations, and lead to an overall shortage of desperately needed health workers, precisely when the Ebola outbreak is as out of control as ever."

This undercuts your earlier statement that quarantines won't affect volunteerism. Even without MSF's hands-on experience, it seems obvious, even tautological, that if someone has 6 weeks leave to treat Ebola patients and 3 weeks have to spent in quarantine, the time spent in-field will decrease. Per WHO, Liberia, a country with 4M people, had ~50 indigenous doctors before the crisis; some have died and many have fled. Most docs in the country are foreign volunteers. It seems reasonably clear that a reduction in the number of volunteer doctors and other HCW could have severe adverse effects on the population and the progress of the pandemic. You should not brush that under the carpet and ignore it.

If quarantines are imposed how do you propose filling in for the reduction in volunteers in Africa that will follow? This shouldn't be an afterthought; it should be addressed before implementing quarantines that will diminish the supply of volunteers.

Again, I'm sorry where's this "science" showing me that someone's viral load is is zero when they have no subjective sx of ebola and that they don't shed ANY virus? Where's the "science" telling us precisely what those sx are and how to measure them? i.e does nausea before vomiting count, does a belly upset before diarrhea count? When is the moment that precisely someone becomes infectious? No one knows, stop using the word science, science has not answered this question.

I'm not a doctor or expert on this, and I'm not saying this refutes your statement, but it does touch on it (and I do note the "reason to believe" and "often" language):

"Health care professionals treating patients with this illness have learned that transmission arises from contact with bodily fluids of a person who is symptomatic — that is, has a fever, vomiting, diarrhea, and malaise. We have very strong reason to believe that transmission occurs when the viral load in bodily fluids is high, on the order of millions of virions per microliter. This recognition has led to the dictum that an asymptomatic person is not contagious; field experience in West Africa has shown that conclusion to be valid. Therefore, an asymptomatic health care worker returning from treating patients with Ebola, even if he or she were infected, would not be contagious. Furthermore, we now know that fever precedes the contagious stage, allowing workers who are unknowingly infected to identify themselves before they become a threat to their community. This understanding is based on more than clinical observation: the sensitive blood polymerase-chain-reaction (PCR) test for Ebola is often negative on the day when fever or other symptoms begin and only becomes reliably positive 2 to 3 days after symptom onset."
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe1413139?query=featured_ebola

First of all, the public has already lost trust and confidence in this government and the CDC's botched response in Dallas based on inaction.

CBS Poll (pub 10-28) says 47% of Americans approve of Obama's handling of the Ebola threat while 41% disapprove.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-do-americans-feel-obama-is-handling-ebola/

WP-ABC poll (pub 10-29) puts the numbers at 49% favorable, 41% unfavorable
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/10/29/obamas-ebola-comeback/

The polls show, no surprise, a strong party bias. It would probably be accurate to say Republicans lost trust and confidence in Obama before he took office; Ebola had little to do with it.

There is a reason why those exposed to TB and HIV/AIDs aren't stigmatized because those diseases don't have mortality rates that even come close to approaching Ebola's whopping 50% mortality rate.

I don't disagree with that, but there seems to be some cautious optimism that Ebola will not be nearly as fatal in developed countries as in Africa. To date, only one person treated in the US has died (the Liberian man who was not admitted on his first visit to the Dallas ER), while 7 have recovered and one is still in treatment. Europe's numbers aren't as good but are better than 50%. As I understand it, in each death, the victim did not receive prompt care.

Paul Farmer, the infectious disease expert who runs Partners In Health hospitals in Rwanda and Haiti (and thus knows a lot about third world medical care) states:

"An Ebola diagnosis need not be a death sentence. Here’s my assertion as an infectious disease specialist: if patients are promptly diagnosed and receive aggressive supportive care—including fluid resuscitation, electrolyte replacement and blood products—the great majority, as many as 90 percent, should survive."
http://www.pih.org/blog/dr.-paul-farmer-an-ebola-diagnosis-need-not-be-a-death-sentence

I am not suggesting that this potential for decreased mortality control the policy response, I'm just throwing it out there.
 
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"Most docs in the country are foreign volunteers. It seems reasonably clear that a reduction in the number of volunteer doctors and other HCW could have severe adverse effects on the population and the progress of the pandemic. You should not brush that under the carpet and ignore it."

No one is ignoring this. What is being suggested is that quarantine and selfless acts of volunteering are not mutually exclusive. You can't just resort to simple statements like if we quarantine in the states, then we would take all the blame for this disease getting out of hand. That is ridiculous. All the responses from various institutions including MSF are knee jerk responses without actually any proposal for a solution that would satisfy successfully containing the disease in the states in addition to promoting additional volunteer work. The argument that "these people are endangering their lives because they are so good and selfless and therefore don't deserve to be quarantined" just doesn't ring right with me.

"I'm not a doctor or expert on this"

That is clear and I will say I'm a physician, but I'm not an expert on this either, because it seems like no one is. First of all the article you are quoting is a NEJM editorial, not a study, it is the opinion of some people, not evidence. Second of all, you acknowledge the language isn't convincing in of itself. The PCR is negative for many Ebola patients with fevers for 2-3 days? You are telling me that that equates a zero viral load? This is saying that the body is manifesting a fever before it sees the pathogen. That makes no damn sense to anyone with any scientific background. The body has to be responding to a pathogen to manifest symptoms - Ebola is there, whether the test reveals it or not - if it is there, there is a possibility that it will spread. Let me offer an alternative example. Troponin testing in evaluation for acute coronary syndromes is often negative in people who actually have acute coronary syndrome within the first few hours. Do we as doctors just say to ourselves "well I guess it's negative so we'll just send them home" No, we repeat the test, we admit the patients if they are moderate or high risk. Same with ebola, if the testing is negative, if they are at risk individuals, they should be retested and continuously monitored regardless of what the initial PCR test results are. I respect Dr. Drazen and his colleagues opinions on this matter, but I humbly disagree and the article pointing out the fact that Thomas Duncan's family members didn't get the disease when exposed early as evidence that the general public is not at risk is woefully insufficient. There is a reason why anecdotal evidence isn't well regarded/or at least used to support policy and clinical care by the medical community. The best that NEJM and all doctors can say right now is we don't know, and if we don't know, it's f-ing dangerous to pretend we do or to falsely reassure ourselves. We did that in Dallas and we had 2 infected nurses who thankfully are okay now.

"as many as 90 percent could survive"

I'm sorry the mortality rates for TB and HIV still pales in comparison.

Lastly a poll today showed 8/10 Americans support a mandatory quarantine.

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2014/10/8555593/poll-finds-majority-support-quarantines

Though this is not a direct indication of public trust, if the American people fully trustful of CDC/government statements on how unlikely it is to get Ebola, you just wouldn't see these types of numbers. I'd hate to believe that 80% of our population are now republicans...

As some docs have stated on this forum, if they are ever exposed to ebola, they will voluntarily self quarantine, because they understand that this is not a black and white matter, they understand the low but real potential danger they pose to others and their families. And I would have to say I would do the same if it happened to me and it baffles me that any healthcare professional wouldn't consider that a reasonable thing, especially when you exclusively take care of Ebola patients for weeks.
 
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Allow me to respond as a member of a disaster medical team seriously considering deployment to Liberia.
Quarantines requiring strict 21 day isolation upon return to the US will decrease the enthusiasm of certain team members to participate. Personally, I feel that a 21 day quarantine is reasonable and intend to do this myself if I go, regardless of the current law at the time. This is easy for me because I have 9 weeks of vacation I can burn. Many people do not.
My team had 16 volunteers ready to go(including me) as of a week ago. We need a min of 12 to go. Given new quarantine requirements, we are making an assessment to see if we still can field 12 individuals. I'm guessing the answer will be no as many of these folks were having a hard enough time meeting the min time commitment of 6 weeks set forth by USAID. There has been some talk in NYC of the city/state/fed. govt paying volunteers for their lost time while in quarantine. This might be one solution to meet the needs of all involved parties.
 
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NEJM: 5% of Ebola patients, have their first onset of symptoms beyond the 21 day cutoff chosen for quarantine, with a certain number developing first symptoms as late as 40 days or more after exposure (95% develop within 21 days).

Results section, "Key Time Periods" and Figure 3A

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1411100#results
 
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"Most docs in the country are foreign volunteers. It seems reasonably clear that a reduction in the number of volunteer doctors and other HCW could have severe adverse effects on the population and the progress of the pandemic. You should not brush that under the carpet and ignore it."

No one is ignoring this. What is being suggested is that quarantine and selfless acts of volunteering are not mutually exclusive. You can't just resort to simple statements like if we quarantine in the states, then we would take all the blame for this disease getting out of hand. That is ridiculous.

I never said anything about blaming anybody and don't understand why you think it is important to assign blame like that. But you continue to fail to come to grips with the main point: Quarantines will reduce the amount of volunteering in Africa; reducing the amount of volunteering in Africa will exacerbate the pandemic there; exacerbating the pandemic in Africa will kill lots of Africans and will lengthen the time the rest of the world remains at risk of contagion.

All the responses from various institutions including MSF are knee jerk responses without actually any proposal for a solution that would satisfy successfully containing the disease in the states in addition to promoting additional volunteer work.

I agree more effort needs to go into methods to encourage volunteering. Of course, the argument of MSF and others is that the disease can be contained in the US without quarantine. You obviously disagree with that, but there are a lot of experts making the same argument, and it seems unlikely all of them are making knee-jerk responses.

The argument that "these people are endangering their lives because they are so good and selfless and therefore don't deserve to be quarantined" just doesn't ring right with me.

I said nothing like this. If the volunteers were all ax murderers who get reduced sentences for going, it wouldn't matter. What matters is getting skilled people to Africa to help out.

I'm a physician, but I'm not an expert on this either, because it seems like no one is. First of all the article you are quoting is a NEJM editorial, not a study, it is the opinion of some people, not evidence. Second of all, you acknowledge the language isn't convincing in of itself. The PCR is negative for many Ebola patients with fevers for 2-3 days? You are telling me that that equates a zero viral load? This is saying that the body is manifesting a fever before it sees the pathogen. That makes no damn sense to anyone with any scientific background. The body has to be responding to a pathogen to manifest symptoms - Ebola is there, whether the test reveals it or not - if it is there, there is a possibility that it will spread. Let me offer an alternative example. Troponin testing in evaluation for acute coronary syndromes is often negative in people who actually have acute coronary syndrome within the first few hours. Do we as doctors just say to ourselves "well I guess it's negative so we'll just send them home" No, we repeat the test, we admit the patients if they are moderate or high risk. Same with ebola, if the testing is negative, if they are at risk individuals, they should be retested and continuously monitored regardless of what the initial PCR test results are. I respect Dr. Drazen and his colleagues opinions on this matter, but I humbly disagree and the article pointing out the fact that Thomas Duncan's family members didn't get the disease when exposed early as evidence that the general public is not at risk is woefully insufficient. There is a reason why anecdotal evidence isn't well regarded/or at least used to support policy and clinical care by the medical community. The best that NEJM and all doctors can say right now is we don't know, and if we don't know, it's f-ing dangerous to pretend we do or to falsely reassure ourselves. We did that in Dallas and we had 2 infected nurses who thankfully are okay now.

An interesting in the Atlantic on transmission, with links to studies. . http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...transmission-science/382026/?single_page=true and an interview with a researcher wit 20 years of exerience working with Ebola http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/10/reality-check-how-catch-ebola

I suppose the problem I'm having is the absolute nature of your argument. As I understand it Ebola first is deep in the body in places from which it cannot, or at least has not been known to, shed. You say "if it is there, there is a possibility that it will spread." I don;t know that to be true, and the sources above suggest it is false. Moreover, based on the test you seem to advocate, if someone had Ebola but appears recovered, you'd still have to quarantine them; after all, how do we know the virus is not lurking somewhere in their body where test won't currently detect it? Must we quarantine everyone who ever had Ebola until we are absolutely sure of this? At some point you have to say, 'We know enough, and this is a level of risk that is acceptable.' We do that with all sorts of things, from treating diseases to administering new drugs to using ordinary consumer goods. The many experts who claim Ebola won't spread could be wrong. But there are costs to the quarantines, and that has to enter into it.

I'd hate to believe that 80% of our population are now republicans...

I agree with you entirely.

As some docs have stated on this forum, if they are ever exposed to ebola, they will voluntarily self quarantine, because they understand that this is not a black and white matter, they understand the low but real potential danger they pose to others and their families. And I would have to say I would do the same if it happened to me and it baffles me that any healthcare professional wouldn't consider that a reasonable thing, especially when you exclusively take care of Ebola patients for weeks.

I've never really been hotly anti-quarantine. My concern is simply that quarantines will drastically reduce the number of volunteers and will therefore result in the deaths of lots of Africans and exacerbate and extend the pandemic. My initial response was to your claim that quarantines would not impede volunteers. You no longer seem to make that contention.
 
Obama:

"...we may still continue to see individual cases in America in the weeks and months ahead...We can't hermetically seal ourselves off."

Hmm..That's good to know.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0II2A020141029?irpc=932

Meanwhile:

US troops returning from Ebola territory are sealed off in quarantine, not in the US, but overseas, in Italy. Hmm...Wonder why, since that's not "based in science" or "necessary."

http://www.thelocal.it/20141029/us-soldiers-ebola-quarantine-in-italy-sparks-alarm

"Army said Chief of Staff General Raymond Odierno ordered the 21-day monitoring period 'to ensure soldiers, family members and their surrounding communities are confident that we are taking all steps necessary to protect their health."

That's weird. I thought quarantining overseas was pointless, unnecessarily restrictive and offered zero health benefit to anyone. Hmm...

At the same time Australia bans travel from Ebola stricken countries:

http://news.yahoo.com/u-isolates-troops-australia-slaps-visa-ban-ebola-041640921.html

Hmm...I don't get it. I'm just confused. Don't their "experts" read the same English language Public Health and ID textbooks that our experts do? Clearly they aren't aware that the more people they have traveling back and forth to stamp out Ebola at it's source, the better their chances of protecting themselves from Ebola. Weird. Always thought those Australians seemed pretty smart. I guess I just don't "get it."
 
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"International MSF staff members commit to burdensome four-to-six week assignments in the Ebola-affected countries. The risk of being quarantined for 21 days upon completion of their work has already prompted some people to reduce their length of time in the field. Others will be less inclined to volunteer in the first place. This will present significant operational disruptions at the field level for MSF and other organizations, and lead to an overall shortage of desperately needed health workers, precisely when the Ebola outbreak is as out of control as ever.

As I pointed out a while ago, I thought that this was the only strength in the argument not to ban. But even w/o a ban, people just have this fantasy idea that they will be safe to go back home and return to business as usual. My question to them is this? Would they rather wait out there 21 days here or over there? But there are inherent risks, and it is irresponsible to not FULLY address them--and that means take reasonable measures to contain spread in other lands.
 
Italy is not West Africa.

Military are not civilians. (Resources, central command / coordination, ability to control peoples lives).

You're going to equate this with forcing HCWs to stay in West Africa for 3 weeks? C'mon.
 
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Italy is not West Africa.

Military are not civilians. (Resources, central command / coordination, ability to control peoples lives).

You're going to equate this with forcing HCWs to stay in West Africa for 3 weeks? C'mon.

Italy is not West Africa.

Military are not civilians. (Resources, central command / coordination, ability to control peoples lives).

You're going to equate this with forcing HCWs to stay in West Africa for 3 weeks? C'mon.


What? I know about Italy TY. Been there. Point is if people aren't going to keep themselves under wrap at home, heck yes, it's a problem. It's great to go; but be intelligent and lay low at home. Don't go train-hopping and being all out and about. Helping others in W. A. doesn't give you the right to put others at risk over here--or anywhere else for that matter. Come on. Be sensible.
 
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Helping others in W. A. doesn't give you the right to put others at risk over here--or anywhere else for that matter. Come on. Be sensible.


I feel like I've been suffocating and just got air. Thank you.

:slowclap:
 
At the same time Australia bans travel from Ebola stricken countries:

http://news.yahoo.com/u-isolates-troops-australia-slaps-visa-ban-ebola-041640921.html

Hmm...I don't get it. I'm just confused. Don't their "experts" read the same English language Public Health and ID textbooks that our experts do? Clearly they aren't aware that the more people they have traveling back and forth to stamp out Ebola at it's source, the better their chances of protecting themselves from Ebola. Weird. Always thought those Australians seemed pretty smart. I guess I just don't "get it."

I'm in Australia, although just a medical student, and yes this happened. Second what Birdstrike said here.
 
I'm sorry about using the word blame, but you are suggesting that if we quarantine people, there will be less volunteers in Africa and more Africans will die and therefore the Ebola pandemic will worsen? I'm not sure what word to use other than blame.

The disease hasn't been well contained here without a quarantine - we have had a Liberian lie and come over here and gave Ebola to two American nurses, we have a physician who contracted it while volunteering who ran all over NYC with no symptoms, but oh yeah I guess he felt pretty tired, so who knows what the heck that means and whether he was infectious or not, and now we have a MSF nurse in Maine who thinks that her "civil rights" are being violated because she is being asked to stay away from the public for 21 days. There is a reason why the public is supporting a quarantine, because the disease hasn't been well contained despite statements from CDC/MSF/politicians etc. Absolutely more efforts should go into promoting volunteering - but quarantine should be apart of this particular disease in this setting.

The articles you have linked just reiterate my prior point. Neither one proclaims that Ebola isn't infectious in its early stages, they just say it's damn hard to get it, btw without any references to any actual studies on people (pigs and monkeys on reston virus just don't hack it IMO). Well we know that it's damn hard to get it in it's early stages. It's just a matter of what is the acceptable level of risk we are willing to take - does mandatory quarantine save more lives in the states or does it kill more people in Africa or both? There is no answer to that question.

I will state again, in my opinion, I think quarantines and volunteering are not mutually exclusive things. AND I think if there is no mandatory quarantine, those volunteering will find their employers probably mandating some sort of home monitoring program or not allow them to work until 21 days are up before they are allowed to go back to taking care of American citizens in this current climate.

You're right, I should've made my initial point clearer, it is my opinion and reasoning (and not a result of any study or survey I did) that quarantine shouldn't deter a right minded healthcare professional from volunteering in West Africa. It is your opinion and some others that quarantines will DRASTICALLY reduce volunteer numbers. We can go our separate ways on that topic because neither of us really know do we? I will guess that it may reduce some numbers of volunteers? I don't know how many more Africans will die per 1 less volunteer. I don't know how many Americans will freak out (probably a lot though), contract Ebola, or die for every unmonitored volunteer returning. I have strong opinions on this but I'm okay with saying I don't know.

AND I'm done having this conversation, Birdstrike seems to be having much more fun with this than I am.
 
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I'm sorry about using the word blame, but you are suggesting that if we quarantine people, there will be less volunteers in Africa and more Africans will die and therefore the Ebola pandemic will worsen? I'm not sure what word to use other than blame.

The disease hasn't been well contained here without a quarantine - we have had a Liberian lie and come over here and gave Ebola to two American nurses, we have a physician who contracted it while volunteering who ran all over NYC with no symptoms, but oh yeah I guess he felt pretty tired, so who knows what the heck that means and whether he was infectious or not, and now we have a MSF nurse in Maine who thinks that her "civil rights" are being violated because she is being asked to stay away from the public for 21 days. There is a reason why the public is supporting a quarantine, because the disease hasn't been well contained despite statements from CDC/MSF/politicians etc. Absolutely more efforts should go into promoting volunteering - but quarantine should be apart of this particular disease in this setting.

The articles you have linked just reiterate my prior point. Neither one proclaims that Ebola isn't infectious in its early stages, they just say it's damn hard to get it, btw without any references to any actual studies on people (pigs and monkeys on reston virus just don't hack it IMO). Well we know that it's damn hard to get it in it's early stages. It's just a matter of what is the acceptable level of risk we are willing to take - does mandatory quarantine save more lives in the states or does it kill more people in Africa or both? There is no answer to that question.

I will state again, in my opinion, I think quarantines and volunteering are not mutually exclusive things. AND I think if there is no mandatory quarantine, those volunteering will find their employers probably mandating some sort of home monitoring program or not allow them to work until 21 days are up before they are allowed to go back to taking care of American citizens in this current climate.

You're right, I should've made my initial point clearer, it is my opinion and reasoning (and not a result of any study or survey I did) that quarantine shouldn't deter a right minded healthcare professional from volunteering in West Africa. It is your opinion and some others that quarantines will DRASTICALLY reduce volunteer numbers. We can go our separate ways on that topic because neither of us really know do we? I will guess that it may reduce some numbers of volunteers? I don't know how many more Africans will die per 1 less volunteer. I don't know how many Americans will freak out (probably a lot though), contract Ebola, or die for every unmonitored volunteer returning. I have strong opinions on this but I'm okay with saying I don't know.

AND I'm done having this conversation, Birdstrike seems to be having much more fun with this than I am.
The only fun part was your post of the Halloween costume. I'm willing to let them have this round, until and unless there are more US cases.
 
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maine RN is cracking me up making the talk show circuit.
 
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maine RN is cracking me up making the talk show circuit.


I saw that coming from jump street. Seriously. I could see which political side she buttered her bread on too. Aw, well. What's the world with all this excessive drama!
 
I saw that coming from jump street. Seriously. I could see which political side she buttered her bread on too. Aw, well. What's the world with all this excessive drama!
She's threatening legal action. My guess is she's been promised that any litigation would be funded by a group with a vested interest (ACLU, etc.)
 
You should really look up the definition of "vested interest".
 
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A thread full of unfettered hyperbole and fear-mongering.

If intelligent physicians can't recognize the true level of infectivity of the virus – e.g., Duncan was sent home to live with his family in a fully symptomatic state, and none of them contracted it – nor listen to the infectious disease physicians at the WHO, now we're in the realm of radioactive unicorns and the illuminati. Where's Glenn Beck's chalkboard?

Military personnel who have been constructing clinics in W.A., and not in any contact with the infected, do not need to be quarantined – here, there, or anywhere.

The physician in New York City caused no public health threat by traveling the city, going bowling, etc. while absent significant symptomatology.

The nurse in Maine should be allowed to do whatever she pleases.

The inmates are running the asylum.
 
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A thread full of unfettered hyperbole and fear-mongering.

If intelligent physicians can't recognize the true level of infectivity of the virus – e.g., Duncan was sent home to live with his family in a fully symptomatic state, and none of them contracted it – nor listen to the infectious disease physicians at the WHO, now we're in the realm of radioactive unicorns and the illuminati. Where's Glenn Beck's chalkboard?

Military personnel who have been constructing clinics in W.A., and not in any contact with the infected, do not need to be quarantined – here, there, or anywhere.

The physician in New York City caused no public health threat by traveling the city, going bowling, etc. while absent significant symptomatology.

The nurse in Maine should be allowed to do whatever she pleases.

The inmates are running the asylum.
The most accurate statement made on this thread yet, is your last line in bold.

I must say though, I'm a little tickled to see you taking such a strong opinion on who's right, who's wrong, all of a sudden and implying everyone is a little looney over Ebola (true, we all are a little bit) when a few posts ago you were explicitly deferring to expert opinion, stating neither you, nor I, or any of us, had any basis for any opinion on any of this; but I digress.

Now, those running the show, those "experts" you were deferring to are setting policy and now are the "inmates running the asylum." The disjointed leaderless-conglomerate of "experts" are warring with each other. Each state has their own MD, MPH, with their own state expert-opinion based policies. The Feds have their own warring MD, MPH and ID experts, with one group saying the civilian asymptomatic-exposed need not be strictly quarantined, yet the same federal government has different experts stating that asymptomatic soldiers that weren't ever even exposed, let alone symptomatic must be strictly quarantined before even being allowed to enter the country.

All I was suggesting, was that we not invite active Ebola cases in the country. That was deemed "bile-filled" and hateful, and it was implied I should basically shut up and trust the so-called experts who at this current time, still are okay with allowing active Ebola cases in the country, but have enacted harsh and strict quarantines on those without Ebola and without even any exposure, in the case of the military. The inconsistencies, I think, have contributed to more fear and panic, than anything.

Personally, I'm starting to get "Ebola-fatigue" and at the moment I'm pretty content that we haven't had any more new cases of Ebola in a while. Whether it will remain that way, is yet to be determined. But you're definitely right, it's been a hot steaming mess of inconsistencies, disorganization and mixed messages. It's no wonder people are freaked out. There is a general sense that no one has any frickin' clue what they're doing. Hopefully this will turn out to be a test run and a wake up call for if we ever get a larger outbreak in this country, and that the response will be more well-oiled than the current Keystone Cop fumbling. Knock on wood, hopefully we won't. But you certainly are correct in saying that, "The inmates are running the asylum."
 
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If all you're saying is: quarantine active Ebola at the source – that still has a potentially chilling effect on those headed overseas to assist, considering the treatment conditions available. Some sort of secure repatriation protocol for infected medical aid workers should be established such that they receive top-quality medical care for their sacrifice – whether it be a specialized treatment center like Emory, or a temporary biohazard facility constructed at a U.S. military base on foreign soil.

And, don't confuse the poor decision-making capacity of our policy-makers as reflective of uneven science. The loudest voice isn't always the rightest voice, and – I'm sure you've seen this before – the smartest folks are rarely in charge, leaving such mundane tasks of meetings and speeches to those who can tolerate such humdrum banality.

Also, I'm glad to see the judge in Maine has recognized the quarantine positions of the states as invalid and inconsistent with science and set the young nurse free.
 
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If all you're saying is: quarantine active Ebola at the source – that still has a potentially chilling effect on those headed overseas to assist, considering the treatment conditions available. Some sort of secure repatriation protocol for infected medical aid workers should be established such that they receive top-quality medical care for their sacrifice – whether it be a specialized treatment center like Emory, or a temporary biohazard facility constructed at a U.S. military base on foreign soil.

And, don't confuse the poor decision-making capacity of our policy-makers as reflective of uneven science. The loudest voice isn't always the rightest voice, and – I'm sure you've seen this before – the smartest folks are rarely in charge, leaving such mundane tasks of meetings and speeches to those who can tolerate such humdrum banality.

Also, I'm glad to see the judge in Maine has recognized the quarantine positions of the states as invalid and inconsistent with science and set the young nurse free.
The risk of potentially getting stranded overseas and dying from Ebola hasn't dissuaded volunteers up until now. Their incredibly high threshold for risk tolerance, does nothing to ease increase my comfort with their traveling back and forth subject to voluntary protocols. In fact, hundreds of healthcare workers have gone to Ebola hot zones accepting tremendous risk, and hundreds have gotten sick and died in the process. They've accepted the risk up to now, and prior to this outbreak I haven't heard one publicly asking for the right to come back to the US with active or incubating Ebola disease. In just one outbreak recently,

"Around the globe, about 400 health care staff have contracted Ebola, and more than 230 have died."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiam...-doctors-nurses-and-other-healthcare-workers/

It's certainly a noble humanitarian goal to send people to fight Ebola outbreaks overseas. Whether it truly is in the US public interest to do so, I'm sure there's plenty that would debate you on that. But assuming for a minute, that "fighting Ebola at it's source" is truly the best way to protect Americans, let's take a rationale approach. Open this up for public debate. Argue your point. Lobby Congress to authorize some funding to ship volunteers back and forth on military or government planes that can best keep those at risk isolated from the general population. Don't invite people with active Ebola or those at high-risk get on commercial planes. That was irrational from the get go.

You can quote all the science you want and you maybe right, but no one is ever going to be comfortable with that policy as long as they're quoting outbreak death-rates of 50-70% from a disease bad enough we need to be going overseas to fight in the first place. If you want to ship American doctors back and forth on hazmat equipped jets funded by the US government, then have public debate this. Let the elected representatives vote on it. Vote it up or vote it down.

There's enough people who are, and will continue to be, panicked about Ebola that we need a coherent policy that everyone is comfortable with. To be relying on travelers to voluntarily quarantine themselves has already led to at least one doctor lying about his travels,

http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/ebola-doctor-lied-about-his-nyc-travels-police/

another that refused to follow restrictions,

http://m.theweek.com/speedreads/ind...rman-apologizes-for-breaking-ebola-quarantine

a nurse that thumbed her nose at what she was told to do,

http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/30/kaci-hickox-and-boyfriend-leave-home-on-bikes/

and Ebola "patient zero," who it turns out may have lied about his risk factors after coming to the US on a commercial flight, subsequently infecting two people, who fortunately survived,

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/221905-er-nurse-duncan-lied-about-exposure-to-ebola

Like I said from the get go, this is unavoidably political, and there needs to be a solution that the majority is comfortable with. Yes, it should be "science based," but on one hand touting science in the effort to release one group from a supposed unnecessary quarantine (civilians/Maine nurse), yet at the same time thwarting that same science and quarantining government personnel/soldiers with the utmost of strict quarantines before even allowing them to set foot in the country, only breeds more distrust in those people who are supposed to be providing rational leadership and protecting citizens. As much as we all want to protect the citizens of Ebola stricken countries, we don't want our own citizens to be afflicted.

I think what people are looking for, is a consistent, rational and uniform policy. Strict quarantines and a ban on crossing the border for one group (military) and a lax policy for another group allowing commercial travel of Ebola or potential Ebola patients across borders without any enforceable monitoring, is not consistent, rational or uniform. Someone needs to grab a hold of the controls, and fly this plane in a rational, cohesive manner. That's what we hire our leaders to do.
 
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All I was suggesting, was that we not invite active Ebola cases in the country.

Then who posted these?

You want to go to West Africa to help those with Ebola? I'm fine with it. It's a noble goal. Just don't come back to this country until you've quarantined for 21 days before returning.


The policy should start here, "Stop. Quarantine where you are, and then fly back after 21 days and cleared by a foreign government. Then..."


The doctor [who had no symptoms when in Brussels] connected through Brussels, Belgium. He could have been quarantined there
 
A thread full of unfettered hyperbole and fear-mongering.

If intelligent physicians can't recognize the true level of infectivity of the virus – e.g., Duncan was sent home to live with his family in a fully symptomatic state, and none of them contracted it – nor listen to the infectious disease physicians at the WHO, now we're in the realm of radioactive unicorns and the illuminati. Where's Glenn Beck's chalkboard?

Military personnel who have been constructing clinics in W.A., and not in any contact with the infected, do not need to be quarantined – here, there, or anywhere.

The physician in New York City caused no public health threat by traveling the city, going bowling, etc. while absent significant symptomatology.

The nurse in Maine should be allowed to do whatever she pleases.

The inmates are running the asylum.

Point is, he certainly could have--he did have some symptomology. He repressed it, as often HCWs have been programmed to do.

It will be interesting to see , one day, a HCW repressing symptoms, who is out and about doing God know what, only to no longer be able to suppress the need to vomit or run to a public rest room splattering the bowl. Someone not as prissy as I am may use it or touch something that has been contaminated, and there you go. You now have a person with Ebola that has never stepped foot in W.A. comes down with it. Are you OK with HCWs taking this risk? Would you be OK if you were the person that get's splattered with vomit or some other droplet particles or somehow has interaction with the still active virus? See, I don't think so.

It's easier than you think to spread fluid on to fomites or other people. God forbid, if such situations occur here in the US, how will you feel then?

Or, and please God forbid, will you be one of those people on the far left that deep inside believe that it serves America right for 1. Not participating enough in helping these areas (It's a good point, but really?), 2. not funding another to these areas (Well, we are in a financial hole now, aren't we?), or 3. Just b/c we are a capitalistic nation, with many that shun socialism and do not suffer like those in the 3rd world--so, now, it's the USA's turn! You don't think there are radicals that think like this? Think again. You don't think radical Islam isn't rooting for Ebola in America? You don't think that there are many on the left that feel this way but don't have the gonads to say it--or at least say it beyond their own private circles lest they get Hell for it? You are kidding yourself if you think there are NOT people that think this way.

But for the overly simplistic thinkers with a more distant but not too dissimilar political stance, it's ridiculous to call being careful fear-mongering and hyperbole. I'm laughing at the word hyperbole, b/c it is something those of a particular political persuasion use constantly in their own devices, but hypocritically they are now using it as an argument against being very careful about potentially spreading this deadly virus. What BS.

Maine girl was playing into the game. Let's hope she is keeping her azz at home away from others until the 21 days are done.

The NY doctor was repressing, in all probability, as he was trained to do. He could just as easily vomited on you or someone like you, or sneezed bodily secretions into your nose, eyes, and/or mouth. No one said he is a horrible person. He is a victim of the superman-HCW programming, and the idea, subconsciously, that he was careful enough over there, and so the virus would NEVER attack him. Untrue for sure.
 
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Oooh...Kallen. You're being extra scary because it's Halloween, aren't you?

You're in good company when it comes to inconsistency. As Walt Whitman said, "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes," and Emerson said "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Of course, I imagine that makes it a little awkward to talk about a
"consistent, rational and uniform policy."

Happy Halloween!
 
You're in good company when it comes to inconsistency. As Walt Whitman said, "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes," and Emerson said "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Of course, I imagine that makes it a little awkward to talk about a

Happy Halloween!

Not getting the relevancy at all with those quotes--and I do pretty well with the abstract.
 
You're in good company when it comes to inconsistency. As Walt Whitman said, "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes," and Emerson said "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Of course, I imagine that makes it a little awkward to talk about a

Happy Halloween!
You haven't been on this forum very long. But if you had, you'd know that over the years I've been called a lot of things. I've been compared to the Russian double-agent Ana Chapman, Stephen King, a glass half-empty alarmist, a "wise Buddha," brilliant, "touching," "Debbie Downer, "illuminating," and a full array of other colorful compliments and insults based on my SDN posts. Now you've called me "hateful and bilious," and a the same time compared me to the poets Emerson and Walt Whitman. Lol. Now whether I share anything in common with any of those people or things I do not know. But the one thing I do know for sure, is that I've sure as hell never been accused of being "consistent, rational and uniform."

:)

Damn it, I love Kit Kats.
 
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I loved the Happy Days reruns too. While I'm at it, I'll really go out on a limb and claim that this was one of the best videos of the 90s.
If you like Weezer they just dropped a new album that shockingly is as good as their first couple albums. Yeah, no one else can believe it either. Miracles do happen. Weezer is back from the dead. I already quoted from it on the Dallas Ebola thread:


<3 =w=
 
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:)

Damn it, I love Kit Kats.

Yea, I had one and only one--and I ended up sharing it with someone else--and that was last week, before Halloween.

Don't want to do too much sugar and hurt my immune system; since too much of it can inhibits phagocytosis of viruses and bacteria. I might come down with Ebola after shaking the snot-drenched hand of a noble Ebola worker. ;)
 
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