Actually, per Bartlett, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." We all edit.
New York Ebola case
- Thread starter EM Junkie
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It was an attempt to add a light touch to the discussion. Birdstrike had chastised policy makers for being inconsistent in the same the post in which he had flipped flopped from his earlier position of advocating mandatory quarantine for volunteers before they could re-enter the US to a new position of advocating quarantine only for volunteers with "active" Ebola. Birdstrike had responded to the post where I pointed this out with a light comment and I replied in kind.
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Brevity is the soul of wit. The additional part of the quotation didn't add any gravitas.
The Emerson and Whitman were intended to be humorous, and I'm glad you got it. But actually, if I recall correctly, I didn't call you "hateful and bilious," I said a couple of your comments were, which is quite a different thing. That said, playing the victim card by saying you were being pilloried for having made a modest proposal, when in fact you had proposed something more extreme is pretty sketchy.
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What are you talking about? I thought this thread was about Kit Kats, Weezer, and the great Arthur Fonzarelli?
I don't remember Birdstrike saying he was against volunteers going over there and returning, so long as they were quarantined APPROPRIATELY--meaning someone is making sure they are keeping their azzes off the streets until they are clear. If they are symptomatic, then they need to be isolated in a hospital with the TRULY APPROPRIATE isolations rooms, equipment, and staff.
Those non-essential folks coming over here need to be banned from entry for now. Only essential personnel should be OK to go in and come out--and when they come out, they need to be quarantined to home, period, until they are cleared. If they can't do that, then they need to be mandated to quarantine somewhere. Let's keep this under wraps already. In time, the probability increases that a HCW that had cared for Ebola patients will be out and about and will infect someone else. It's just a matter of time.
I am so totally for people being free. Hell, I don't want people being able to read my emails--not that there is anything earthshattering in them--be a big waste of people's time, but yes. I am not for policing people. The problem with this virus is that it is so deadly, and at some point one person's freedom to do X stops at the actual potential to needlessly take away the freedom of others (by way of deadly infection)--and then exponentially others after that. When we are looking at spread here, and sadly putting aside the risk to life in the USA, but by looking at the bursting costs of this virus here, which has already been declared as pandemic in W.A., damn, who will be able to help then? Let it become an epidemic here. We are already under a crushing economy. Unfortunately, people often can't understand things until they have to look at overwhelming costs.
Anyone of us who wants and can go to W.A. to help with this virus should do so. We should be fully supported for doing so. I mean to the point of bringing us to approved "Ebola" centers here and getting the top treatment--if needed. (BTW, Honestly, I have to wonder if Dr. Brandt and the other missionary would have gotten such treatment if it were not for the work and insistence of Samaritan's Purse.)
But I'm good with all of that--take care of these people that are giving of their time, energy, money, etc, to go there and do this important work. But even I, as it were, a contributor to the supportive action over there, would have to accept the lumps of being put in the 21 d. quarantine after returning home--just as I also would have to honestly assess and accept my risks of working with these poor patients and contracting Ebola. Anyone that does this kind of work and doesn't count the costs shouldn't be doing it.
Those non-essential folks coming over here need to be banned from entry for now. Only essential personnel should be OK to go in and come out--and when they come out, they need to be quarantined to home, period, until they are cleared. If they can't do that, then they need to be mandated to quarantine somewhere. Let's keep this under wraps already. In time, the probability increases that a HCW that had cared for Ebola patients will be out and about and will infect someone else. It's just a matter of time.
I am so totally for people being free. Hell, I don't want people being able to read my emails--not that there is anything earthshattering in them--be a big waste of people's time, but yes. I am not for policing people. The problem with this virus is that it is so deadly, and at some point one person's freedom to do X stops at the actual potential to needlessly take away the freedom of others (by way of deadly infection)--and then exponentially others after that. When we are looking at spread here, and sadly putting aside the risk to life in the USA, but by looking at the bursting costs of this virus here, which has already been declared as pandemic in W.A., damn, who will be able to help then? Let it become an epidemic here. We are already under a crushing economy. Unfortunately, people often can't understand things until they have to look at overwhelming costs.
Anyone of us who wants and can go to W.A. to help with this virus should do so. We should be fully supported for doing so. I mean to the point of bringing us to approved "Ebola" centers here and getting the top treatment--if needed. (BTW, Honestly, I have to wonder if Dr. Brandt and the other missionary would have gotten such treatment if it were not for the work and insistence of Samaritan's Purse.)
But I'm good with all of that--take care of these people that are giving of their time, energy, money, etc, to go there and do this important work. But even I, as it were, a contributor to the supportive action over there, would have to accept the lumps of being put in the 21 d. quarantine after returning home--just as I also would have to honestly assess and accept my risks of working with these poor patients and contracting Ebola. Anyone that does this kind of work and doesn't count the costs shouldn't be doing it.
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So what is it then that you consider extreme? Quarantine of HCWs for less than a month after direct exposure to Ebola patients in the hot zone or a lot of direct, close-up care w/ Ebola patients somewhere, or is it blithely moving forward, believing every HCW or other persons exposed to these patients will not be a risk to people in the US? Let's see. One went out for soup--turned out OK--especially since I don't believe she was in close-direct patient interaction--but still a journalist came down with it and was in a hospital in Nebraska. Two nurses with questionable protective gear, education, and set-up came down with it--one of whom went flying around to work on wedding plans. (I mean that sounds reasonable enough; but it could have just as easily turned out to be a problematic exposure to others.)
Another doc with direct exposure over time comes home, goes all over the place, including bowling, subway trains, etc, and he comes down with Ebola. And somehow, it's all good; b/c the tertiary exposures were one person removed from high concentrations of infectious secretions. What I am saying is that one day, there's a good chance one of these people will be blowing off quarantine after having been in close contact with Ebola, and they will be sicker than they think--moving around in open community--and will get others sick, needlessly.
The only way you can keep everyone happy I suppose is to do the honor system; but people are human, and they don't follow the honor system enough--as we have seen. Not necessarily b/c they are bad people. It's b/c everyone believes that they will be the exception. It's b/c people are prone to denial. It's b/c HCWs push themselves when they feel under the weather or just out and out sick. It's also things like how people review and even confabulate in their own minds, "Hey I was ultra careful," or they get busy and miss some little thing that in fact made a difference. People are severely fallible humans. When they work under the stress of caring for really sick people and get busy, things can get missed and not even be recognized. How many HCWs so far have said, that they have no idea how they actually became contaminated with the virus. It's not b/c they were stupid or even totally careless. It's b/c crap happens, and it only takes a second. Most people doing sterile or close to sterile procedures break sterility IF they don't work where they live, eat, breath it all the time--where/when it becomes second nature, and even these people can make mistakes. Now sterile technique is an example. But if you are not well-versed in taking extreme precautions against exposure to stuff that is infectious, well, you are more likely to miss something for sure. Add on the crazy business of more and more patients and/or these patients getting sicker and not being unconscious, and not the potential flies out of control. In the OR, things are well established. Routines are laws like the Ten Commandments, and there must be strict adherence at all times. These people do this all day, every day, and they have help to try and maintain the controls. Hell they even have special UV lights, filtering systems to keep microbes down, and they keep it cooler than the morgue in most ORs. It doesn't stop all bugs, but it reduces them. The whole environment over here in our ORs is very stringent and strict--in general. So, in those environments, things are set up to help you succeed in being careful in this regard--and you are constantly be drilled and watched in terms of procedure. On top of that, you get the patient under, and that further controls potentially problematic situations.
In other clinical areas, this just doesn't happen--even if you are giving continuous IV sedation, it's not as deep as what's given in the OR. People get wild. Then you have multiple patients--and things can easily get crazier; hence the potential for inadvertent exposure is very, very real. No one that works with these patients should think it's impossible that they will become exposed--even with the best equipment and set-ups; b/c there are too many variables, which cannot be strictly controlled at all times.
But when one has an understanding of human behavior--and the general clinical environments and lessened controls in the clinical setting, Birdstrike's proposals are not at all necessarily extreme. Perhaps in time, they may prove to be so. I'd rather err on the side of caution though.
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Nobama( as in No Obama bc he shouldn't have been elected let alone re-elected) is a *****. The end.
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Nuh-uh, Bush was a *****. The end.
Posts like these make me lose hope America will ever de-polarize intelligently enough to actually make this country better ....
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@xaelia @fancymylotus
Neither of them are "*****s." Nor are any politicians. They're very smart (most are lawyers) and they do an incredibly good job of taking the reigns to line their own and their friends' pockets. They're extremely effective at doing what's best for their careers, finances and power. You could call them a lot of things, but the reality is that whatever they are, it's very different than being *****s. If you have any doubt about this, take a look at the career trajectory of some of the so-called *****s, who's terms ran out, or who were voted out of office after having "lost." They typically land epic private sector jobs that pay drastically more than their jobs in public office ever did. For example, Al Gore with his massive book and movie deals, Bill Clinton with his tens of millions $ consulting to the United Arab Emirates. Look at Dan Quayle, on the board of directors of Cerberus Capital (What's Cerberus Capital? They are only rich enough to buy Chrysler Corp at one point). Look at Eric Cantor and his new boutique investment bank job for 7 figures after his supposedly embarrassing reelection loss, with Moelis & Co. on Wall Street.
Who are the *****s?
Neither of them are "*****s." Nor are any politicians. They're very smart (most are lawyers) and they do an incredibly good job of taking the reigns to line their own and their friends' pockets. They're extremely effective at doing what's best for their careers, finances and power. You could call them a lot of things, but the reality is that whatever they are, it's very different than being *****s. If you have any doubt about this, take a look at the career trajectory of some of the so-called *****s, who's terms ran out, or who were voted out of office after having "lost." They typically land epic private sector jobs that pay drastically more than their jobs in public office ever did. For example, Al Gore with his massive book and movie deals, Bill Clinton with his tens of millions $ consulting to the United Arab Emirates. Look at Dan Quayle, on the board of directors of Cerberus Capital (What's Cerberus Capital? They are only rich enough to buy Chrysler Corp at one point). Look at Eric Cantor and his new boutique investment bank job for 7 figures after his supposedly embarrassing reelection loss, with Moelis & Co. on Wall Street.
Who are the *****s?
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.....birdstrike, youre supposed to be team FML no matter what nonsense i come up with!!!!!
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Well, I'm on your team, but you know, I have to throw my own spin on it........birdstrike, youre supposed to be team FML no matter what nonsense i come up with!!!!!
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Ebola Researchers Banned From Medical Meeting In New Orleans
"The Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals just ruled that anyone who's been in Sierra Leone, Liberia or Guinea in the past three weeks 'should NOT travel to New Orleans to attend the conference.' (That big "NOT" is in the original letter.)"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...rs-banned-from-medical-meeting-in-new-orleans
"The Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals just ruled that anyone who's been in Sierra Leone, Liberia or Guinea in the past three weeks 'should NOT travel to New Orleans to attend the conference.' (That big "NOT" is in the original letter.)"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...rs-banned-from-medical-meeting-in-new-orleans
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Damn I guess I can't go ;( I had my tix and everything
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Nothing will stamp out Ebola like inhibiting research on it.
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Yeah, all that tax deductible society-conference "research," like which New Orleans beer tastes best, which wine pairs best with Cajun food and which bar has the best New Orleans jazz and blues. Uh huh.
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Just because that's what I do at a conference doesn't mean that other people don't get together to develop projects and ideas...and then get drunk.
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Beer is gross
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It's beginning to appear as if the mortality rate of Ebola is much lower for those with access to advanced treatment facilities.
It's also beginning to appear that a widespread outbreak in the U.S. is, as the experts vilified on this thread have always claimed, not very likely.
It's also beginning to appear that a widespread outbreak in the U.S. is, as the experts vilified on this thread have always claimed, not very likely.
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Has a potential outbreak been snuffed out because of the policy to allow people with Ebola to freely fly to the US, or in spite of it, considering certain states have taken their own actions for protocols stricter than the Federal policy, and because of good common sense being used above and beyond the Federal policy, like that used by Lara Logan and the CBS team who, in contradiction to Federal policy, sensibly opted to quarantine before returning to the US?
"Lara Logan...has isolated herself in a South Africa hotel room as a precaution after filing a '60 Minutes' report 'The Ebola Hot Zone' from Ebola-ravaged Liberia that was aired..."
Thank you, Lara. Sounds like a very sensible decision to me.
http://mainenewsonline.com/content/...ntined-after-filing-60-minutes-report-liberia
Either way, there's a much more dangerous virus that needs to be stopped:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/finally-confirmation.1107434/
"Lara Logan...has isolated herself in a South Africa hotel room as a precaution after filing a '60 Minutes' report 'The Ebola Hot Zone' from Ebola-ravaged Liberia that was aired..."
Thank you, Lara. Sounds like a very sensible decision to me.
http://mainenewsonline.com/content/...ntined-after-filing-60-minutes-report-liberia
Either way, there's a much more dangerous virus that needs to be stopped:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/finally-confirmation.1107434/
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"Virus can be sexually transmitted months after original infection has disappeared, according to new study"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/14/ebola-survivors-virus-sperm-infection
"Ebola nurse Pauline Cafferkey's rapid decline after being 'cured' leaves experts staggered"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-is-staggering-says-professor-a6694201.html
"Ebola after-effects unclear as nurse becomes critically ill...her case shows how little we understand about the dangers of the Ebola virus, even now as the epidemic wanes."
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ects-unclear-as-nurse-becomes-critically-ill/
I thought you Ebola experts knew everything there was to know about the virus a year ago, and that a short observation period was sufficient, and disease and transmission were impossible after just a few days to weeks?
You had it figured out, right, you're trusted and infallible "experts"?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/14/ebola-survivors-virus-sperm-infection
"Ebola nurse Pauline Cafferkey's rapid decline after being 'cured' leaves experts staggered"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-is-staggering-says-professor-a6694201.html
"Ebola after-effects unclear as nurse becomes critically ill...her case shows how little we understand about the dangers of the Ebola virus, even now as the epidemic wanes."
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ects-unclear-as-nurse-becomes-critically-ill/
I thought you Ebola experts knew everything there was to know about the virus a year ago, and that a short observation period was sufficient, and disease and transmission were impossible after just a few days to weeks?
You had it figured out, right, you're trusted and infallible "experts"?
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You're right. We should have kept all of the American Ebola survivors in quarantine for the entire last year, just in case.
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Is it too late to blame Obama again.
Aren't we all supposed to be dead or locked in a battle with contagion per the talking heads and fearmongers from the wayback machine.
Aren't we all supposed to be dead or locked in a battle with contagion per the talking heads and fearmongers from the wayback machine.
Viruses. You just can't trust em. Thanks for posting this. Sad. I hope somehow she improves.
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I fixed your misprint for you.
