New York Times article on Caribbean medical schools

[xffan624]

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner!!

If they were trying to show how equal DO med students are to MD med students, then they failed. It's funny bc out of all the DO schools - they picked the worst one - Touro in Harlem, NY.

It's also easily accessible to major media outlets, being in the middle of NYC. Journalists are lazy. They go for the closest place whether it's representative or not.

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[SouthernSurgeon]

Can any SDNer tell me what's wrong with this picture?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0

Students at the Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harlem work on a mannequin with a heart condition. CreditOzier Muhammad/The New York Times

Their superior physical exam skills must have revealed that the mannequin had situs inversus

 

[MU420]

Their superior physical exam skills must have revealed that the mannequin had situs inversus

Like the article said, the mannequin had a "heart condition".

 

[Flashfan]

Not to be picky, it is common for pictures to be inverted. And Touro-NY is hardly the worst DO school. That honor goes to Liberty.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Not to be picky, it is common for pictures to be inverted. And Touro-NY is hardly the worst DO school. That honor goes to Liberty.

Well...the thing is...chest compressions should be done directly over the sternum. So it doesn't particularly matter which side they were on...

 

[type12]

Well...the thing is...chest compressions should be done directly over the sternum. So it doesn't particularly matter which side they were on...

In addition, two people wearing a watch on their right hand seems unlikely. Both being left-handed? Possibly, but less likely than stupidity, which has a greater statistical likelihood.

 

[KnuxNole]

Can any SDNer tell me what's wrong with this picture?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0

Students at the Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in Harlem work on a mannequin with a heart condition. CreditOzier Muhammad/The New York Times

Oh, that's an EASY question!

Her nails.

 

[DermViser]

Oh, that's an EASY question!

Her nails.

At least her watch is fashionable.

 

[phisigman03]

At least her watch is fashionable.

No, it's a woman. Chest compression not effective maybe better for keeping time or watch from afar.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Here is an interesting read that supports what guywhodoesstuff mentioned.

http://www.aocd.org/?page=ACGMEMerge

I mean, that's straight from an osteopathic organization and it doesn't paint the rosiest of pictures.

I'm guessing most primary care AOA residencies are probably in good shape for the most part. I wonder if anyone has other info about other specialties' residency programs.

Interesting. However, I don't agree with the conclusion. I severely doubt they would grant these spots to a foreign MD. Why would they?

It's basically suggesting that the AMA is merging with the AOA to take there residencies spots and give it to foreign MDs. Again this is all speculation but that speculation is overly pessimistic and what is far more likely is that this would be used to push out foreign schools.

As far as the bottle neck to residency spots with the increasing med schools this affects both MDs and DOs.

Agree AOA primary care is fine as it always has been.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Again with the delusions! We cannot have a constructive conversation if you cannot admit your problems. By even saying this, you are contradicting yourself so many times, asking to be taken literally, but then do not do others the same courtesy? In what way is it MORE reasonable to assume that I meant something OTHER than what I said? This cuts at the core of your problem, and explains why you have a tough time seeing the other side. You aren't listening to words, but just choosing a meaning that you wish to fight with. You are shadow boxing.

Such a broken record on Doctors without Borders. You have to be because the burden of proof lies on you, to show there is equal treatment in all grey countries on that map (and no, Jones, an article listing four countries doesn't cut it, nor does it describe any friction/lack of friction DOs may have). If you are telling the AOA, the very people who manage osteopathic medicine, to shut the f### up and ignore the legalities in other countries, that's on you, not me.

You can say all you want about "third world" countries. It doesn't change my thesis, which you keep avoiding because you know I'm right. Hey, let's do an exercise since you're having so much difficulty: what was my point about DOs and practicing in other countries? You're still shadow boxing to hide what little respect and courtesy you have left but don't deserve. Calling people troll and c### shows your maturity level.

Get out of your delusions of grandeur, and stop acting like DOs are some persecuted cult or Scientology. The truth is what it is. I'm sorry if it hurts you.

Not all grey countries but third world ones (which is MOST grey countries anyway) in which you are providing humanitarian relief through programs like MSF is ok. I already gave proof that this is true. There are very few borders the DO's face in MSF. Sorry if you get mad by this but DO's can help poor countries and we (as in DOs) do care about them. This friction you talk about really is so minimal its not even worth talking about.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I just...I can't...I don't even know...

Why do I keep coming back to this thread?

You've done extensive shadowing at ONE hospital...therefore you can adequately judge the quality of their residency programs. And by extension all DO residencies.

Unbelievable.

Taking one line and cutting out the next? not cool. I shared my experience and asked people for theres. The insinuation that if you do an AOA program that its automatically substandard is silly though.

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh, that's an EASY question!

Her nails.

 

[Mad Jack]

Interesting. However, I don't agree with the conclusion. I severely doubt they would grant these spots to a foreign MD. Why would they?

It's basically suggesting that the AMA is merging with the AOA to take there residencies spots and give it to foreign MDs. Again this is all speculation but that speculation is overly pessimistic and what is far more likely is that this would be used to push out foreign schools.

As far as the bottle neck to residency spots with the increasing med schools with this affects both MDs and DOs.

Agree AOA primary care is fine as it always has been.

There are well over a thousand unfilled AOA positions every year. Giving them to a foreign graduate over no one at all really makes sense from a funding and accreditation perspective.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You chose to engage in conversation on the pre-ALLO board, so you can't get frustrated when everybody here is coming from an allo viewpoint. I don't think there's nearly as much "fear mongering" and "straw men" (or whatever other bad cliches you are choosing to use today in lieu of using facts) as you seem to see. I do think that as a premed doing shadowing you are at an absurdly bad vantage point to evaluate residency, whether DO or MD. Sorry but you have useless exposure. We all did when we shadowed. There's not a single person in the history of SDN who advanced from premed to residency who found that they had actually understood and appreciated everything accurately early on. This isn't a Transparent path. We hide our dirty laundry. We make people buy into the company line. Lots of eye openers, no matter your path. the most important skill in medicine is realizing what you don't know. This hasnt been your strong suit in this thread. You will get there, but fighting residents about what is involved in matching or what constitutes an up to par residency really is bringing your pocket knife to a Gunfight. In 4 years you might have some semblance of a useful perspective. Until then you are just a guy misunderstanding numbers and not having much of a vantage point.

I came to pre allo to warn people about Caribbean not to debate about DO's. Its others here that forced me to. Not interested in the allo viewpoint of DOs. I'm not interested in what allo residents have to say about DO residencies. I'm interested in what DO residents have to say about them. I'm not saying I understand everything about DO residencies, however, I do believe the allo guys don't know about them either. For them to pass judgement on the realities of DO and the roadblocks they face is uninteresting to me.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

There are well over a thousand unfilled AOA positions every year. Giving them to a foreign graduate over no one at all really makes sense from a funding and accreditation perspective.

Yea but they are saying they would give them to them over DO's in article which doesn't make sense to me.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I'm not nearly experienced enough to comment on residency statuses or issues one faces post-graduation from medical school, but I just wanted to mention that while reading the 7 pages of this thread, I've had an advert for the St. James School of Medicine in the Caribbean in the banner at the top of the page.

Carry on, I shall lurk. ^^

I got the same St james thing. No mcat requirement. Terrible school haha.

 

[type12]

Not all grey countries but third world ones (which is MOST grey countries anyway) in which you are providing humanitarian relief through programs like MSF is ok. I already gave proof that this is true. There are very few borders the DO's face in MSF. Sorry if you get mad by this but DO's can help poor countries and we (as in DOs) do care about them. This friction you talk about really is so minimal its not even worth talking about.

LMAO! OMG, this is the most hilarious post. You've done a full 360 and now are agreeing with me. I mean, sure, what you define as "very few" (or, "a fact that should be BANNED from the knowledge of those applying and forbidden from being stated") varies with my "very few" (or, "something you should know before going the osteopathic path in case you want to practice globally or do global medicine"), but hey, now you've done so much backpedaling and reached my original point, so it's refreshing to see you are making sense.

And it's a blessing you finally agree there's friction, but who do you think you are to say whether it is so minimal that we should hide this fact from applicants? It's not minimal, but again, I'm glad you finally are seeing things my way, so I'll let that slide. However, you thinking you have a right to restrict information (or not talk about, whatever that means) is opinionated and wrong. I'd rather facts be presented upfront, rather than hidden, and let the INDIVIDUAL use or discard that information as they see fit.

 

[FutureOncologist]

Wow. Huge shocker that a thread on Caribbean schools somehow erupted into an MD vs. DO debate.

 

[CrimsonKing]

I'm curious...what is the relationship between MCAT scores and Step 1 scores?

Direct but not 1:1.

r=.6 for MCAT Biological Sciences and USMLE Step 1 score for the population at my school.

r=.5 for M2 grades and r=.4 for M1 grades. Perhaps the correlation to grades would be stronger if we weren't a true P/F school and specific grades mattered more in the pre-clinical years.

Keep in mind that these results are for an analysis of five classes at one medical school. They cannot be completely generalized. However, I feel entirely too lazy to research any national correlations that have been found.

Back to Step-Up to Medicine

 

[CrimsonKing]

Not all grey countries but third world ones (which is MOST grey countries anyway) in which you are providing humanitarian relief through programs like MSF is ok. I already gave proof that this is true. There are very few borders the DO's face in MSF. Sorry if you get mad by this but DO's can help poor countries and we (as in DOs) do care about them. This friction you talk about really is so minimal its not even worth talking about.

Something I've been wondering reading this thread: do people actually care about international practice rights or is this just some silly component to the irrelevant MD v. DO debate? @DoctorSynthesis has been focusing on it pretty heavily, but I don't think people really care much about practicing overseas.

As far as practice rights are concerned in the US, MD's and DO's are equivalent.

'MURICA

 

[type12]

Something I've been wondering reading this thread: do people actually care about international practice rights or is this just some silly component to the irrelevant MD v. DO debate? @DoctorSynthesis has been focusing on it pretty heavily, but I don't think people really care much about practicing overseas.

As far as practice rights are concerned in the US, MD's and DO's are equivalent.

'MURICA

I'm not entirely sure either. I made a passing comment about "Doctors WITH Borders" and... the rest is history, lol. It's a trivial fact for most people. Even I have no intentional of practicing globally. He appears to agree with my point, but doesn't want to admit it because I said it in a way that offends him.

 

[ems2doc]

Sort of off topic—apologies, but does anyone know the international practice rights for US allopathic physicians? I saw a map for osteopathic once, but not for allopathic.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Sort of off topic—apologies, but does anyone know the international practice rights for US allopathic physicians? I saw a map for osteopathic once, but not for allopathic.

However, almost no one beyond the pre-med stage actually cares about this.

 

[type12]

View attachment 184530

Actually, I think Santa put up some serious restrictions for allopaths in the North Pole. Luckily, it's not a continent.

 

[Conflagration]

Something I've been wondering reading this thread: do people actually care about international practice rights or is this just some silly component to the irrelevant MD v. DO debate? @DoctorSynthesis has been focusing on it pretty heavily, but I don't think people really care much about practicing overseas.

As far as practice rights are concerned in the US, MD's and DO's are equivalent.

'MURICA

Definitely! And for those who still doubt if Doctors without Borders/MSF takes DO's, take a look at this link.

I'm not sure how many people here actually intend to practice abroad, and feel like they can't do that with a broader program.

And @ems2doc, I think as long as you go through the local departments of health and take their certification exams, you're fine.

 

[Dral]

Interesting. However, I don't agree with the conclusion. I severely doubt they would grant these spots to a foreign MD. Why would they?

It's basically suggesting that the AMA is merging with the AOA to take there residencies spots and give it to foreign MDs. Again this is all speculation but that speculation is overly pessimistic and what is far more likely is that this would be used to push out foreign schools.

As far as the bottle neck to residency spots with the increasing med schools this affects both MDs and DOs.

Agree AOA primary care is fine as it always has been.

The main thing I focused on is this:

"This merger mandates that an MD must be program director of a DO program, however a DO may be allowed on a case-by-case basis.

The requirements for granting such are not written anywhere, and will be arbitrary. This proves that DO's are not viewed equally under the terms of this merger.

Our current residency programs may become “pre-accredited” starting in 2015; however, they still have to meet all requirements before full accreditation can be obtained and many of our programs could close"


The way I understand it, there are some DO Derm programs that focus on clinical o/p aspect and give little to no inpatient experience/exposure. This i/p exposure is a requirement of ACGME accreditation of programs. This can be found here:

http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Porta...ements/080_dermatology_07012014_u06152014.pdf

Specifically sections IV.A.6.b) and IV.A.6.b).(1)

When the AOCD says "They still have to meet all requirements before full accreditation can be obtained and many of our programs could close", this is the type of thing to which they are referring.

Another issue is residency funding. It is against ACGME rules to provide privately funded or unfunded residency training. However, there are unfunded/privately funded osteo Derm residencies (I believe about half are not funded by CMS) Here is an example:

http://pacificdermresidency.com/?page_id=16

These unfunded/private funded spots will likely have problems during the pending merger. That means potentially half of osteo Derm residencies could close in the coming years. I'm not saying they will, but there is the real potential. The AOCD is concerned. They are the body that seems to deal with accrediting osteo Derm residencies currently.

Again, I think the AOCD knows best about this, and if they express concern, it is probably a real concern. Again, this is Derm only. I cannot speak about other osteo specialty residencies.

Here is a discussion on SDN about the topic:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-imgs-acgme-aoa-merger.1058075/#post-14967304

I'm not here to judge at this point. However, I do want to provide information so others early on in their careers can make the correct decisions for themselves.

 

[pathologylover]

I got the same St james thing. No mcat requirement. Terrible school haha.

What makes you say that?

 

[ems2doc]

However, almost no one beyond the pre-med stage actually cares about this.

It's just nice to know.

 

[Catman21]

What you're saying doesn't make sense at all.

Not matching is a complete waste of time, as you won't be able to practice medicine in the US.

You can do a research fellowship without an MD, or you can do a PhD. You can do an MBA or an MPH without an MD as well, so I don't understand why that's relevant. Also, if you're willing to spend enough money, you should be become a doctor? That's probably the most ridiculous thing you've posted yet. The Caribbean is an absolute horrible option, as many on this thread have commented. All the statistics are on my side, so your argument is based off nothing more than a biased opinion.

Clearly you plan on attending a Caribbean school, or may already attend one.

Either that or your just another pre-med who has absolutely no clue what he's talking about it.

you make it sound like once you dont match initially all hope is lost. extra degrees just make for a better resume? LOL "Also, if you're willing to spend enough money, you should be become a doctor?" you twisted the **** out of that. Im saying if you dream is to become a doctor and you've already sunk 250k into a caribbean school, an extra masters shouldnt make a huge difference. "no clue what im talking about" pot meet kettle.

You do understand that if you don't initially match, you can reapply the following year......right? You probably don't though.


No, I don't nor have I attended med school in the Caribbean, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to bash the **** out of those students.

 

[DarknightX]

you make it sound like once you dont match initially all hope is lost. extra degrees just make for a better resume? LOL "Also, if you're willing to spend enough money, you should be become a doctor?" you twisted the **** out of that. Im saying if you dream is to become a doctor and you've already sunk 250k into a caribbean school, an extra masters shouldnt make a huge difference. "no clue what im talking about" pot meet kettle.

You do understand that if you don't initially match, you can reapply the following year......right? You probably don't though.


No, I don't nor have I attended med school in the Caribbean, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to bash the **** out of those students.

Once you don't match, your chances go down even further. You can apply each year, but each year your odds decrease. It is much more difficult to match the farther the time elapses from medical school. You probably don't understand this because you have no idea how the match or residency works.

I'm not bashing the students, I'm stating the facts, which is going to a Caribbean medical school puts you at a significant disadvantage when it comes to matching for residency, regardless of the specialty. It's a fact that is not disputable. You do understand that these schools have around a 30% match rate? You probably don't though.

But hey, clearly you're the expert given all your vast experience. I'm sure you've sat on numerous admission committees, talked to a bunch of programs directors, and know exactly what residency programs are looking for. I'm sure your residency program has a ton of Caribbean grads and you guys all hold hands and sing about how great of doctors you are.

I'm done wasting time responding to you. You are clearly a premed or a med student who has no use what he's talking about. Or a troll. You're giving bad advice that isn't based on any facts, just emotional psychobabble about how people deserve to be doctors "if that's their dream."

"WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE but like Caribbean schools are just as good! Who cares about matching, if you don't match you can just apply next year! Like, going 250K in debt and only having a 30% chance of matching shouldn't be a big deal if you wanna be a doctor!!"

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Once you don't match, your chances go down even further. You can apply each year, but each year your odds decrease. It is much more difficult to match the farther the time elapses from medical school. You probably don't understand this.

Not matching also means your range of options the next time around is drastically different.

If you were trying to match into something competitive on round one --> the next year you'll realistically only have a shot at a less competitive field

If you were trying to match into something not that competitive --> the next year you'll only realistically have a shot at worse programs in that field.

So not matching means...
(a) Overall odds of ever finding a residency go down significantly
(b) Odds of matching into the field you originally had planned on for your career go down significantly
(c) Odds of being in a highly desirable location or prestigious program go down significantly

Now you could argue that all this means is that the applicant originally had an application that wasn't competitive for what they wanted to do, and all that happens via going through the match again in a subsequent year is that they end up in a program that was more realistically a fit for them in terms of their application (in other words had they applied to a proper range of programs the first time, they would have matched). This may to some degree be true.

But I would argue that not matching is a significant, separate variable that is an additional negative ding on your application.

 

[gyngyn]

But I would argue that not matching is a significant, separate variable that is an additional negative ding on your application.

I can independently corroborate this.

 

[DermViser]

2.5 to 1 isn't that bad and its going to closer with the upcoming merger. Even goro has pointed that out. So don't act like it isn't true.

Also you can't neglect the allo people are probably more interested in competitive specialties while DOs aren't.

Having a 2.5 times greater likelihood of matching or not is not that big of a difference? Having a 250% greater chance of either matching or not, isn't a big difference? Really?

 

[DermViser]

Well, I'm in Derm and my PD/Chair just doesn't interview DOs. Ever. Why bother? They get more than enough super well qualified MD applicants to choose from.

So, n=1, but as a DO your chances of matching at my program is 0.0%. Cue the butthurt pre-DOs whining about how they wouldn't want to be in such a terrible program that looked down upon DOs anyway.

And the phrase, "D.O. Discrimination".

 

[DermViser]

Would your PD incline to interview that applicant if he was from (Howard or Universidad Central Del Caribe or Meharry etc...)? If so, someone has to sue these PDs just to set an example...

That's your solution? Sue a PD for not interviewing you? Really?

 

[DermViser]

Not trolling, but that was obviously an hyperbole... My point was that I thought everyone was on the same playing field once they got admitted to med school (regardless it is MD or DO). And from there, your accomplishment should matter more than school you attend... I guess I am drinking from a different cup than these PDs... If were to be a PD, that is the way I would rank (choose) my residents...

Whoever told you this lied to you. This doesn't work in any occupation, much less medicine. You're not a PD for a reason.

 

[DermViser]

People consider medical schools because, as was pointed out above, you have a good idea regarding the overall quality of their clinical education if they attended an MD school.

As an intern, I oversaw a large handful of DO students. It was a comedy of errors. I honestly started to feel bad that their "core internal medicine rotation" consisted of shadowing the second year resident in a small community hospital.

What types of errors? I'm assuming they were MS-4s doing a sub-I.

 

[DermViser]

I'm also going to mention something that I know goes on in my hospital (universally, not just the Derm department) which I know is not unique to us: having a lot of DOs in the residency programs taints the image (of the hospital and of those residency programs specifically). This is not me just offering conjecture. There is a real pressure from the top down at our hospital to reduce the number of DO students interviewing at/matching into our hospital. Whether you think that's right or wrong, it's a very real thing.

It has caused a bit of turmoil, as there are of course DOs on faculty who don't take too kindly to the sentiment.

You mean from MBA suits who don't have a medical degree or MD suits?

 

[DermViser]

LOL now you're actually trolling, or you go to a DO school. When we say MD, we mean US allopathic MD. Obviously Caribbean MDs are easier to get than DOs and are discriminated against just as much if not more than DOs. We already established that. I'm willing to be his PD doesn't interview Caribbean students either.

He's a D.O. - his avatar is of A.T. Still

 

[DermViser]

I have never said they are superior.

And DOs that don't use it in practice can use skills they learned from it (palpations) and it reinforces anatomy.

And harvard wouldn't be offering an OMM equivalent if it didn't work.

Do you know what the word elective means?

 

[DermViser]

Let's not get carried away. They have exactly one IMG from South Korea (out of 3 residency classes) who has a ton of pubs. A lot of programs take non-Caribbean IMGs because they may be the best of the best in their home countries. No DOs.

http://www.imresidency.med.ucla.edu/residents.html

Maybe he's referring to UCLA-Olive View or UCLA-Harbor, or an offshoot program with the UCLA name in it.

 

[DermViser]

Maybe not top tier but a do I shadowed turn down Vanderbilt and went DO. He is now very successful in a very competive field with his do wife who matched well also. People do turn down MD for DO. Not everyone is prestige obsessed.

There is also no point arguing about specialties. The numbers are as clear as day go look at them and make up your own mind. I made up mine.

Vandy is considered to be a top tier. No way that actually happened.

Vanderbilt's medical school is a top-tier medical school. PERIOD. I hate to accuse people of lying but you're on that if you believe that someone turned down an acceptance from Vanderbilt to attend a D.O. school. It has absolutely nothing to do with prestige. The research opportunities, and VUMC as top notch and NOTHING is closed off to you by going there. Their match lists are absolutely spectacular - you can see their lists on their website, as well as their match day festivity in which people read off where they matched to. It's really fun to watch.

I think it's sad that @southernIM, @GuyWhoDoesStuff, and @Greenberg702, @Dral, @DarknightX have been very patient and calm with you in trying to educate as to the reality of the situation regarding the quality of med schools, quality of students, match statistics, match outcomes, and every nook and cranny to you, DoctorSynthesis, and it's like you're a tape recorder that repeats the same thing over and over no matter what actual real evidence is presented to the contrary. It's people like this who are the reason why people from Allo don't come over to Pre-Allo or Pre-Osteo to try to educate you guys to the reality of things, and it's bc you don't listen and just repeat the same falsehoods over and over again.

 

[DermViser]

No hard feelings but a ton of people already explained that those numbers are misleading. You have about a 65% of getting derm from an allopathic school (although perhaps some don't apply because they don't think they'll be competitive). If you want to look at the numbers your way, you would have to add up the percentages of every competitive specialty (derm, ortho, rad onc, ENT, neurosurgery, ophtho, uro, top tier IM/gen surgery, et al.) and then take a look.

Be that as it may, I find a very hard time believing ... "turned down top tier allopathic schools for DO school." Average matriculation numbers don't lie. Compare Wash U and a DO school (or in fact, any MD school that has already graduated a class and any DO school).

Derm also has a HUGE self-selection component. Many medical schools don't have a Derm department, so doing research is near impossible, with no other med school in vicinity. DO Derms as @DoctorSynthesis is referring to have their own residencies (which are essentially private practices that serve as residencies - many of whom are unfunded or a ridiculously low salary) which MDs can not apply to. Even these DO Derm programs are looked down upon bc their experience with complex medical dermatology is very low bc the residents job is essentially to be free/cheap labor.

 

[DermViser]

If they are so unequal how come when I go to a hospital I see MDs and DOs interchangeably? I call them both doctor. They both give me medicine. They have the same role and resonbilites. If they were no where close I would expect an MD to be far different. That's not the case though.

I don't share my MCAT score because I'm not about to start a pissing war on who has a higher score. I scored very well on my MCAT. I'm not insecure in any concievable way. I choose DO out of high school before I even took a class or MCAT.

Do you not know what a state medical license is? The same state medical license is given to MDs and DOs. It's the minimal requirement needed to practice in a hospital in a state. NO ONE HERE IS denying that. A state medical license is the MINIMAL requirement. You choosing DO out of high school then explains your naivete on this issue.

 

[DermViser]

I have spent a lot of time shadowing in a hospital that has one and is perfectly fine. I wouldn't fear monger of these programs. Maybe if someone here has done one they could comment on it. However when I speak to doctors about it I haven't heard any concerns.

How would you know an AOA residency is fine based on shadowing? @Dral is not fear mongering. There is a reason the AOCD (the DO Dermatology group) is actively lobbying against the merger - it's bc they're afraid of their residencies closing down.

 

[DermViser]

Not matching also means your range of options the next time around is drastically different.

If you were trying to match into something competitive on round one --> the next year you'll realistically only have a shot at a less competitive field

If you were trying to match into something not that competitive --> the next year you'll only realistically have a shot at worse programs in that field.

So not matching means...
(a) Overall odds of ever finding a residency go down significantly
(b) Odds of matching into the field you originally had planned on for your career go down significantly
(c) Odds of being in a highly desirable location or prestigious program go down significantly

Now you could argue that all this means is that the applicant originally had an application that wasn't competitive for what they wanted to do, and all that happens via going through the match again in a subsequent year is that they end up in a program that was more realistically a fit for them in terms of their application (in other words had they applied to a proper range of programs the first time, they would have matched). This may to some degree be true.

But I would argue that not matching is a significant, separate variable that is an additional negative ding on your application.

There is a reason the AAMC created the "Careers in Medicine" website and why medical schools are actively telling their students to read the Charting the Outcomes data from the match. Previous to these things, students were not taking to heart career advising (to be fair Student Affairs offices can be just as clueless so I can't blame students for not listening) and specialty faculty were reluctant to tell the truth to some people that they shouldn't apply bc they get a lot of backlash from the medical student, so it's essentially a game of hot potato as to who should tell the student.

See slide #22 - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1512467...ve-Specialty-and-the-Less-Competitive----AAMC (and this is from WashU no less)

 

[username456789]

DV, you went HAM up in this thread this morning.

 

[username456789]

You mean from MBA suits who don't have a medical degree or MD suits?

Some of both.