NIH Post-bac IRTA Advice

[SynBio]

Hi all,

So I am getting ready to apply for the 2014-2015 cycle and would like some advice on how to improve/spend the remaining time until application submission and matriculation.

I am thinking about applying to the NIH Post-bac IRTA program for the next year but I have a few issues to consider. Currently, I have been in the same lab ~3 years and I know the lab quite well. I have had multiple projects resulting in posters, oral presentations, abstracts, and publications.

I am wondering if leaving the lab I am in to a new place will be productive towards my goal (i.e. getting into an MD/PhD program)? I know that the NIH Post-bac IRTA offers a great environment, but I am wondering if 1 year is enough time to make progress on a project? I feel I could make substantial progress on my project in the lab I am in now (maybe have a third publication) since I know what we focus on, but would admissions committees prefer diversifying my research if I have already produced significant work in the lab I am in?

I feel doing the NIH Post-bac IRTA would be great allowing an environment change, to learn new techniques, and network with others. I am just concerned it might not be that significant of a change and wanted some opinions?

Also I am a little worried about the three letters of recommendation. I was thinking about asking my current PI, my old boss (a pharmacist, I worked as a pharmacy technician for four years), and a professor I had several classes with and TA'ed for. I feel the biggest problem is the third letter since I got to know him the least. Since I have only researched with one PI, does this combo of letters look ok, with more focus on the PI's letter?

Thanks

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[ratherbefishing]

If you think you can get pubs out of your current lab, I would stay. Going to the NIH has the benefits you mention, but likely will not be as productive.

 

[okemba]

Take it from someone who did research at the NIH this past summer - it's not that cool.

Things I thought would be cool about doing research at the NIH:
1. Meeting and working with world-class scientists.
2. Networking with said scientists, as well as fellow motivated peers.
3. Living in/or near Washington D.C.
4. Getting a better feel for what translational research entails.
5. zomg its the agency that funds the vast majority of biomedical scientific research in America! My resume will magically sparkle after having worked at the NIH, and I will learn a great deal.

Reality:

1. From my perceptions, about... half of the labs at NIH do stunning, world-class research. The other half are mediocre and not very productive (Perhaps you think my black-and-white division of hundreds of labs into two groups is a testament to the adolescent character of my mind. You are probably correct, but I'm not that wrong.) And because the NIH's website is so terrible (Pick an NIH PI and see if you can actually find a lab or research page that lists their publications or current lab members or research focuses...) it's actually much more difficult than you might think to place yourself into a lab in the former category.

2. Will you network with people in your lab and division? Absolutely. Outside of that? Are you going to barge into other buildings' labs and introduce yourself (I did this...)? Try to make scientific connections at the never-ending stream of seminars? Marvel at Francis Collins' open office door in Building 1? NIH as a whole reaaaally does not offer that many opportunities to meet your fellow scientist (but again, there are literally multiple seminars every day. You could make a full-time job out of going to NIH seminars if you wanted to.) If you are *actually* hyper-motivated and proactive to network, you are going to have to cold approach people at seminars (I did this. It went okay.)

That being said, if you do end up working there, be sure to join the 'Club PCRmini' facebook group. It's basically made up of the lower-20s people who work at NIH. Every once in a while (weekly or so) people will post plans to meet up or something, but it was usually the same 3 people posting and trying to make friends. It didn't seem like many people responded.

3. I would advise you to find an apartment in DC rather than Bethesda. There's waaaay more going on. Print out a scientific article (iPad ftw) to read on the 40-minute subway ride to the NIH. (The subway has an NIH stop called Medical Center.) 40-minutes? Too long you say? Tough. Even living in Bethesda it will take you around 30 minutes to get to work anyways. Might as well live in DC, where you can do more things.

4. Again, hiiiiiiiighly dependent on which lab you work in. Of course, in the future you can always just bull**** about how your time at NIH taught you more about translational research, but... it depends a great deal.

5. Tremendously lab and project dependent, as always.



....now all that being said, I had a great time in DC.

Also, I would recommend at this stage in your career to branch out and try something new. It's easy to get stuck in a rut in your undergraduate field and keep pushing to churn out papers. That's fine, it will certainly benefit your CV somewhat, but I think it's better to get a broader exposure to biomedical research. Though I'm in the exact same position as you, so my opinion doesn't really matter.

 

[cpi89]

"From my perceptions, about... half of the labs at NIH do stunning, world-class research. The other half are mediocre and not very productive"

What? Based on what sampling? Don't take this personally, but that's rediculous. Tenured NIH investigators have gone through a more rigorous selection process than likely any university in the US.

I'm coming up onto my two year mark at the NIH. I'm not even at the main campus, but research at the NIH is a privilege. I don't think it even necessarily has to do with the networking (especially not out here in the boonies), it's more about the kind of science you will have the opportunity to do and the resources you will have access to. A great deal of independence come with those sorts of resources that you will likely not be privy to elsewhere.

 

[mTORC]

Take it from someone who did research at the NIH this past summer - it's not that cool.

Things I thought would be cool about doing research at the NIH:
1. Meeting and working with world-class scientists.
2. Networking with said scientists, as well as fellow motivated peers.
3. Living in/or near Washington D.C.
4. Getting a better feel for what translational research entails.
5. zomg its the agency that funds the vast majority of biomedical scientific research in America! My resume will magically sparkle after having worked at the NIH, and I will learn a great deal.

Reality:

1. From my perceptions, about... half of the labs at NIH do stunning, world-class research. The other half are mediocre and not very productive (Perhaps you think my black-and-white division of hundreds of labs into two groups is a testament to the adolescent character of my mind. You are probably correct, but I'm not that wrong.) And because the NIH's website is so terrible (Pick an NIH PI and see if you can actually find a lab or research page that lists their publications or current lab members or research focuses...) it's actually much more difficult than you might think to place yourself into a lab in the former category.

2. Will you network with people in your lab and division? Absolutely. Outside of that? Are you going to barge into other buildings' labs and introduce yourself (I did this...)? Try to make scientific connections at the never-ending stream of seminars? Marvel at Francis Collins' open office door in Building 1? NIH as a whole reaaaally does not offer that many opportunities to meet your fellow scientist (but again, there are literally multiple seminars every day. You could make a full-time job out of going to NIH seminars if you wanted to.) If you are *actually* hyper-motivated and proactive to network, you are going to have to cold approach people at seminars (I did this. It went okay.)

That being said, if you do end up working there, be sure to join the 'Club PCRmini' facebook group. It's basically made up of the lower-20s people who work at NIH. Every once in a while (weekly or so) people will post plans to meet up or something, but it was usually the same 3 people posting and trying to make friends. It didn't seem like many people responded.

3. I would advise you to find an apartment in DC rather than Bethesda. There's waaaay more going on. Print out a scientific article (iPad ftw) to read on the 40-minute subway ride to the NIH. (The subway has an NIH stop called Medical Center.) 40-minutes? Too long you say? Tough. Even living in Bethesda it will take you around 30 minutes to get to work anyways. Might as well live in DC, where you can do more things.

4. Again, hiiiiiiiighly dependent on which lab you work in. Of course, in the future you can always just bullcrap about how your time at NIH taught you more about translational research, but... it depends a great deal.

5. Tremendously lab and project dependent, as always.



....now all that being said, I had a great time in DC.

Also, I would recommend at this stage in your career to branch out and try something new. It's easy to get stuck in a rut in your undergraduate field and keep pushing to churn out papers. That's fine, it will certainly benefit your CV somewhat, but I think it's better to get a broader exposure to biomedical research. Though I'm in the exact same position as you, so my opinion doesn't really matter.

You were a summer student.... your experience is definitely not representative of most people at the NIH I know. Of course, you have to work hard and show people that you have talent, diligence, and insight to offer the community. Once people recognize your potential, then you can take advantage of the phenomenal world-class research surrounding you and networking opportunities. I have benefited more than I could have imagined from the networking here; you just have to be the type of person who seeks out these opportunities (but that should be obvious).

 

[histidine]

Of course half the labs at the NIH aren't mediocre. But I know several people that have had miserable experiences here at the NIH, myself included. I went from an undergraduate lab that valued my insight and suggestions to a NIH lab that excludes me from our group meetings. I'm not much more than a dishwasher and technician.

Apply to the NIH. There are great labs here and lots of postbacs have wonderful experiences. Just choose wisely.

 

[okemba]

I'm sorry if I came off as vitriolic. My lab at NIH over the summer was phenomenal, but... I don't know. Onward...

recarboxylated histamine -

As someone applying to the NIH IRTA program, how would you recommend choosing a lab that will provide a valuable experience? I don't really want to join my old lab again.

It's possible to get in touch with current lab members before joining, but I might feel a tad uncomfortable about asking someone I'd never met before whether their PI's lab is worth joining.

 

[ilikeargyle]

It's not about whether a lab is "worth joining", it's about whether you will fit in and be happy with the lab environment and your role. You should be clear about your expectations and the PI's/supervisor's, including projects, time to study for an exam, taking FAES courses, time off for preparing applications, interviewing, vacation, work hours, etc. Contacting the previous/current IRTA is fine, and you should feel free to ask honest and open questions about the lab, lab culture, and the IRTA's responsibilities. The IRTA should give an honest answer and summary of his/her experience, and he/she should not be obligated to discuss your conversation with his/her PI. Many PIs will offer the chance to email the IRTA post-offer, and if not, you shouldn't feel bad to ask for it.

 

[ratherbefishing]

The OP's questions was whether it was a good idea to change labs in his/her year before applying MD/PhD. There is too much risk in the IRTA as you can tell in the posts above. Staying and pumping out papers will look better on your CV.

 

[Scienceyesplease]

I went to NIH for a summer and enjoyed my time. It really depends on the lab I guess. As a post-bac you can do more than what I did as a summer student. Maybe you should make it clear when you get a interview that you want to publish and whatever your other goals are to the PI and see if this is something the PI can help with. Also, look into labs with PIs that have recent publications....

 

[Solarium90]

I've been an Postbac at the NIH for about two years now and I have had a great time (Of course, your experience may vary as almost any research experience is highly dependant on your PI/lab). OP, the IRTA program can be a very positive experience. You may get exposed to new areas of research, mentorship styles, have new chances to collaborate and network, and to have another stellar letter of rec. Most of all... it is up to you to communicate what you want out of the IRTA 1-2 yrs to your prospective lab and then to follow through and make the most out of the experience. It will make you a more well rounded applicant of course and might expose you to new areas you didn't even think you would enjoy. My advice is to just apply to the program and (hopefully) once you are invited for interviews you can see if there is any tangible option you would actually take. Heck, if you don't find a lab you like and you can just stay in your current one it will not be a problem. I am a current MD-PhD applicant, and if I could go back I would do it all just the same. As an aside, no paper is guaranteed... But of course you are the better judge of your own situation than I! If you want to talk more and bounce ideas off of someone, feel free to shoot me a PM.

Okemba, it might feel a bit uncomfortable to ask but it is certainly not unwarranted to ask that sort of question. You will be committing a year or more of your life to that lab/program and it is important not only that you are a good fit for the lab, but that they are a good fit for you. Ask questions like: "Are you comfortable with the mentorship style?" or "How does the lab resolve conflicts?" or "What is the division of responsibility for communal lab tasks?" and so on regarding whatever might concern you. Try to overcome that feeling of discomfort and be confident in asking something that is totally appropriate and even professionally warranted. In fact if they react as you might fear that they are offended or unwilling to answer... that is a red flag to begin with.

 

[SynBio]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Good points made.

I think I will go ahead and apply and see what happens. I don't think any harm will come out of applying and I think it will be nice to have the opportunity to get involved in a new place.

 

[okemba]

Okemba, it might feel a bit uncomfortable...

You're quite right. I may just go back to my old lab - it was a great work environment and really interesting work, its just not what I see myself doing in the long-term.

SynBio, I might see you there over the summer.

 

[Solarium90]

Best of luck to both of you =)

 

[highhopes92]

I'm going to jump in on this thread real quick. How did you go about getting in contact with the PI's? Did you just e-mail those who you thought fit your research interests and then sent them an e-mail with your resume and a letter of interest? And what was the idea of the email, name, why you want to do research and why you are interested in their research?

 

[Solarium90]

My situation may not have been typical, as I did not actively seek out labs. Instead, I received 4-5 interview invites based on search hits by the labs themselves within months of applying. I went with my second interview because I loved the work and the PI. I cancelled the rest of my interviews. At the time I had no publications and 1.5 yrs of research experience, maybe I was just lucky. Others will probably have better advice and I urge you to consult more experienced sources. With that caveat heres what I can come up with...

I imagine that if you did get in contact with PI's individually, it would be prudent to note:

1) 1-2 sentence about your current situation and that you are aiming to do a 1 or 2 year postbac (I graduated from xyz with a B.S. in blah did research in blah)
2) Why you are interested in working with them specifically (Be reasonable... if you say that lipid droplet secretion was what you wanted to do since you were born it will sound quite disingenuous and pretty funny)
3) Your long term career goals/next steps and why you are seeking training at the nih (MDPHD? DDSPHD?)
4) Indicate you have applied through the central portal and that your pertinent documents (LORs etc) can be found their.
5) Attach your CV and LOI in the email for their convenience.
6) Make it clear to them that you are available to speak with them via email or phone or that you would certainly oblige a lab visit at their convenience.​

In terms of these sorts of emails, with regard to the postbac irta position and any sort of lab interest email, you want to be concise and to the point while showcasing your strengths. I Wish I could offer a bit more of a substantive answer, but I did not go through that route unfortunately. I'd be happy to proofread a draft but I'm sure you've already noticed several grammatical errors in this one post alone .

Sidenote: When applying to the postbac irta, PIs can locate you through by searching through a database of applications and they will do so mainly based off of keywords or research interests that you indicate. So... select these with care and in areas that you are actually interested in.

 

[ilikeargyle]

Another sidenote: you can also be searched by institution, GPA cutoff, and the PI/mentor can see how many "hits" you have (# of views). I know a lab who has had a string of UCLA students and now I know why. If you're from a smaller institution, have a lower GPA, or have changed interests, it's advised to email investigators yourself.

@Solarium90, I think a lab visit is unnecessary and rarely asked for. If the lab requires it and it's your dream lab, okay, but you will have to pay for travel most likely. I was interested in joining an NCI lab but they required me to visit in person, which I couldn't afford being on the west coast. I already had other interviews/offers by that time, so declined. Recommend Skype if possible.

 

[Solarium90]

@ilikeargyle - Interesting most of the labs that contacted me required a lab visit. Perhaps because they saw that I was on the east coast and only a 4 hr drive? Oh and I absolutely echo what you said about Skype!

 

[highhopes92]

How long after your submission did it take to hear from interested PI's?

I didn't think PI's actually went out of their way to find post-bacc's from their website it sounds like the applicant does most of the work by locating potential labs.

 

[Solarium90]

Within about 8 weeks I heard from 3, and another 2 IIRC in the month after that.

It's not so difficult to search the database and a good postbac can be a cheap source of labor as a productive lab member. Bear in mind it is may not necessarily be the PI searching, and it is often current post-bacs, staff scientists, post-docs, or other members of the lab tasked with screening applications. It certainly varies from lab to lab, and institute to institute, but I think it is somewhat a mixture of hearing from them versus you contacting people.

In hindsight, I should have started contacting PIs immediately. I was just lucky I did not have to. As Ilikeargyle said, it is highly advisable to do so and it really does not take much time to draft an email.

 

[SynBio]

Does anyone have cover letter examples they would be willing to share?

 

[Solarium90]

Does anyone have cover letter examples they would be willing to share?

Pm me i can send you mine when i get home tmrw. I cringe when I read now it but it got the job done...

 

[btdn311]

Hello SynBio! Sorry this a super late post but did you apply and end up going to an NIH lab?

 

[SynBio]

Hey @btdn311 ,

Yes, I ended up applying, but decided not to go.

I contacted several investigators, all of whom were unable to take Post-bacs. I got tired of emailing people and decided to stay in my current lab and finish up a project (I was a little restrictive of labs I contacted).

That being said, there are many investigators at the NIH willing to take Post-bacs, so if your proactive (with a good application), you should be able to find someone who will hire you.

 

[JackieChanFan]

If you choose to apply to the NIH Postbac program, make sure to do your research and find a good lab. Some PIs end up using IRTAs as cheap labor, and skimp on the mentorship aspect of the program.

 

[Summerlands]

If you choose to apply to the NIH Postbac program, make sure to do your research and find a good lab. Some PIs end up using IRTAs as cheap labor, and skimp on the mentorship aspect of the program.

I'm currently in the process of applying for this program. Do you have any tips regarding how to determine which PIs/labs are friendly to postbacs (as opposed to using them for cheap labor)? What sorts of questions would you recommend that I ask the PI and/or current/former postbacs to gauge the lab environment? Thank you!

 

[itsthat1guy]

For those that successfully applied in previous years, how many PIs did you email before you found a lab willing to take you on?

 

[itsthat1guy]

.

 

[JackieChanFan]

Sorry Summerlands, but I don't have any advice to give in regards to finding a good mentor, unless you happen to know someone who can give you an inside scoop. Email as many PIs as you can, and if you are given a phone interview be sure to prepare an extensive list of questions to ask.

Itsthat1guy: It helps if you know someone. Ask your PI (if you are currently conducting research at your university) if he knows anyone at the NIH and to put in a good word for you. I know of a couple of people who got in after single phone call by their research mentor. But I also know others who emailed close to 50 investigators before finding a good lab.