No-backsies? Research grad student threatening to not add co-authorship

[sat0ri]

So I have been working in a lab for over one year, working about 20 hours a week and 30-40 hours during breaks. I have presented multiple times, and have two oral presentations. It was discussed many times with the grad student I work with that I would be on at least one or two papers. (The PI passed away). I'm not sure if I have any tangible evidence of this; I can think of a few proposal manuscripts that had my name on it, and it might have been discussed over messaging, facebook, and less likely over email.

Now, this grad student is known for being a bit capricious (one undergrad quit, he the grad student was reprimanded by the department chair dean of graduate students), but he generally has done a lot for our group of undergrads (presentations, award opportunities, et al). Now, and it might be a threat tactic, but he is saying that I will get no publication spots. (Maybe; i need to shape up; but now I don't feel like trusting this guy because I might put all this work in and he says still not enough).

So, is there anything I can do? Is this allowed? The only solid evidence I have (and even this is no for certain) as the manuscript revisions bearing my name, the conversations we had, and I think a few of the compounds were synthesized by me.

I am a bit exasperated after spending all this time (that could have gone to other things, say the MCAT) are now being called into question. Please help!

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[Goro]

IF you have made contribution to the research that are publication quality, a grad student has absolutely NO right to make that statement, and this needs to be reported to both the PI and the program director.

now, if you've goof ed off, or produced no data, that's a different story.

Again, TALK TO THE PI!

So I have been working in a lab for over one year, working about 20 hours a week and 30-40 hours during breaks. I have presented multiple times, and have two oral presentations. It was discussed many times with the grad student I work with that I would be on at least one or two papers. (The PI passed away). I'm not sure if I have any tangible evidence of this; I can think of a few proposal manuscripts that had my name on it, and it might have been discussed over messaging, facebook, and less likely over email.

Now, this grad student is known for being a bit capricious (one undergrad quit, he the grad student was reprimanded by the department chair dean of graduate students), but he generally has done a lot for our group of undergrads (presentations, award opportunities, et al). Now, and it might be a threat tactic, but he is saying that I will get no publication spots. (Maybe; i need to shape up; but now I don't feel like trusting this guy because I might put all this work in and he says still not enough).

So, is there anything I can do? Is this allowed? The only solid evidence I have (and even this is no for certain) as the manuscript revisions bearing my name, the conversations we had, and I think a few of the compounds were synthesized by me.

I am a bit exasperated after spending all this time (that could have gone to other things, say the MCAT) are now being called into question. Please help!

 

[Mr Roboto]

The PI passed away, per OP

IF you have made contribution to the research that are publication quality, a grad student has absolutely NO right to make that statement, and this needs to be reported to both the PI and the program director.

now, if you've goof ed off, or produced no data, that's a different story.

Again, TALK TO THE PI!

 

[mimelim]

So I have been working in a lab for over one year, working about 20 hours a week and 30-40 hours during breaks. I have presented multiple times, and have two oral presentations. It was discussed many times with the grad student I work with that I would be on at least one or two papers. (The PI passed away). I'm not sure if I have any tangible evidence of this; I can think of a few proposal manuscripts that had my name on it, and it might have been discussed over messaging, facebook, and less likely over email.

Now, this grad student is known for being a bit capricious (one undergrad quit, he the grad student was reprimanded by the department chair dean of graduate students), but he generally has done a lot for our group of undergrads (presentations, award opportunities, et al). Now, and it might be a threat tactic, but he is saying that I will get no publication spots. (Maybe; i need to shape up; but now I don't feel like trusting this guy because I might put all this work in and he says still not enough).

So, is there anything I can do? Is this allowed? The only solid evidence I have (and even this is no for certain) as the manuscript revisions bearing my name, the conversations we had, and I think a few of the compounds were synthesized by me.

I am a bit exasperated after spending all this time (that could have gone to other things, say the MCAT) are now being called into question. Please help!

IF you have made contribution to the research that are publication quality, a grad student has absolutely NO right to make that statement, and this needs to be reported to both the PI and the program director.

now, if you've goof ed off, or produced no data, that's a different story.

Again, TALK TO THE PI!

Depends on the lab and depends on the contributions of the student. For instance, in our department, I have complete say over who's names are on my papers and where they are authorship wise. They are all my ideas, from start to finish, with a lot of peripheral input from staff. If I don't think that a student (or another resident) is pulling their weight on a particular project, they aren't getting authorship. While technically staff can overrule me, why would they? They know that these are my babies and I know what is going on better than they do (on these projects at least).

Time spent is NOT the same as production. If you contributed to the project in a significant way, you should be given credit for it. This is not a court of law. This isn't about evidence or what was offered. This is about what you actually contributed to the project. At the end of the day, you only recourse is the PI or whoever inherited the project from the PI who died.

 

[sat0ri]

Ok (and to those other responders), what happens if I did contribute--which is why I originally was going to be given second author, and why my name's on manuscripts, and why I've been told I would have multiple publications--and the grad student is simply being moody? The grad student we work with has been known for fits and paroxysm (like crazy, please just take my word on this part).

What recourse do I have? Complain to the new PI who really doesn't know whats going on? Do I really stand a chance that way? The grad student hasn't made up his mind--and this might be one of his scare tactics as we've seen in the past--but I'm really fed up with pouring so much time under the pretense of publication, and now having this be so iffy.

It seems like some sort of bait-and-switch (due to an emotional/personal thing) and it just doesn't seem fair. I know research isn't contractual, but is this land really that lawless?

Depends on the lab and depends on the contributions of the student. For instance, in our department, I have complete say over who's names are on my papers and where they are authorship wise. They are all my ideas, from start to finish, with a lot of peripheral input from staff. If I don't think that a student (or another resident) is pulling their weight on a particular project, they aren't getting authorship. While technically staff can overrule me, why would they? They know that these are my babies and I know what is going on better than they do (on these projects at least).

Time spent is NOT the same as production. If you contributed to the project in a significant way, you should be given credit for it. This is not a court of law. This isn't about evidence or what was offered. This is about what you actually contributed to the project. At the end of the day, you only recourse is the PI or whoever inherited the project from the PI who died.

 

[mimelim]

Ok (and to those other responders), what happens if I did contribute--which is why I originally was going to be given second author, and why my name's on manuscripts, and why I've been told I would have multiple publications--and the grad student is simply being moody? The grad student we work with has been known for fits and paroxysm (like crazy, please just take my word on this part).

What recourse do I have? Complain to the new PI who really doesn't know whats going on? Do I really stand a chance that way? The grad student hasn't made up his mind--and this might be one of his scare tactics as we've seen in the past--but I'm really fed up with pouring so much time under the pretense of publication, and now having this be so iffy.

It seems like some sort of bait-and-switch (due to an emotional/personal thing) and it just doesn't seem fair. I know research isn't contractual, but is this land really that lawless?

Go to the PI. That is your only recourse.

Life is not fair. Don't work in a lab with/under someone who is 'crazy'.

 

[sat0ri]

Have any of your experimental results appeared in a figure in the paper? You say you synthesized a compound - was the synthesis the main thing in the paper or was it just synthesizing a compound that had a minor role in one of the experiments? What was your intellectual contribution? Did you just follow the synthesis protocol or did you devise the synthesis yourself? Why is the number of times you presented relevant? Not trying to be mean, but are you the type of kid who does research for a checkbox or do you actually enjoy it? Grad students hate the latter type of undergraduate, and it may explain why he doesn't want you on any of his pubs (if you are that type of researcher, that is).

I actually enjoy it. I'm not going to write a secondary on this, but yeah i don't work 40 hours to check a box, and Im in another lab (2.5 years and counting), and working on publishing my own research in another, and did a summer internship, and starting a job next week as a RA.
He just always underestimates our contributions. We stay late night on weekends. I mean, there is another guy there that I can admit works harder than me (like 60 hours a week over break) and the grad says that that this other guy doesn't work enough. Can we just accept he is subject to fits? Like he verbally says we are ****, we suck, even though we get prestigious awards (my one friend is interviewing at Harvard, Columbia, Yale, etc ,for md/phd, so we don't just "suck")

My question is does your word to the person you help mean nothing? If I tell you will get a publication, you put in 40 hours, then I change my mind (because after doing this the publication was still on the table), would you not be looking for options?

The number of times presenting was only remotely relevant because it shows on many instances he thought I contributed enough to present.

 

[sat0ri]

Go to the PI. That is your only recourse.

Life is not fair. Don't work in a lab with/under someone who is 'crazy'.

Crazy is a bad word I don't mean to sound insensitive, but subject to paroxyms maybe is better (as independently confirmed by outside parties).

But I'm learning about the life not being fair. I think it is him not being fair, not life.

Well thanks, and to all posters. I'd still appreciate any other thoughts on this. It looks like my options are limited to the new PI who is out of the loop.

I was thinking maybe the department chair for graduate students? We recently lost another undergraduate and he went to this and got him in trouble. I don't know if this will get my (purported) due-credit in an authorship though.

 

[sat0ri]

At this point I'm just venting about a bad experience of busting my hump for naught. But if someone thinks I have a case or a way to get what out what I put in, id like to hear it

 

[sat0ri]

I agree that your situation sucks and luckily I have never been in it. Do not let all your hard work go to waste because of one unstable graduate student, who is only a few years older than you and not much more experienced. Talk to the PI. Have a meeting with him if you have to. Just make sure that your work is recognized.

Thanks--I really appreciate the empathy, because this is pretty rough for me right now.

 

[Goro]

Someone has to be the senior author on the paper...meaning, that's the person who will be submitting the manuscript. Talk to THAT person.

The PI passed away, per OP

 

[ucfmcdonald]

Have any of your experimental results appeared in a figure in the paper

 

[moop]

Punch him in the d*ick

 

[sat0ri]

Just wanted to give a shoutout to @moop thanks for the timeless advice! lol

 

[Dr.Zoidberg]

IF you have made contribution to the research that are publication quality, a grad student has absolutely NO right to make that statement, and this needs to be reported to both the PI and the program director.

now, if you've goof ed off, or produced no data, that's a different story.

Again, TALK TO THE PI!

This has actually happened to me multiple times. I tried politely speaking with the PI twice, but both times it was unhelpful. Generally the PI simply doesn't realize the extent of your contributions and trusts the grad student over an undergrad. Some PIs are naturally resistant to publishing undergrads as well. I can literally point to graphs in publications that I produced, but you won't find my name on the papers. Lab notebooks are of little help too. If a grad student is willing to do this, chances are he/she has the same data written in their notebook, which they wrote down after you sat down to talk about the experiment you did.

This is our first introduction to the real world, where accomplishments are way harder to control and quantify. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not. We're judged simultaneously on something we can control (grades/scores) and on something we can't (publications/opportunities), so it's hard to stomach when things don't go your way.

 

[ridethecliche]

If this is pervasive, I would accuse them of academic dishonesty. Talk to the dean even. Have your lab notebooks, be able to back things up.

This is the flipside of why documentation is so important in the sciences.

 

[mimelim]

This has actually happened to me multiple times. I tried politely speaking with the PI twice, but both times it was unhelpful. Generally the PI simply doesn't realize the extent of your contributions and trusts the grad student over an undergrad. Some PIs are naturally resistant to publishing undergrads as well. I can literally point to graphs in publications that I produced, but you won't find my name on the papers. Lab notebooks are of little help too. If a grad student is willing to do this, chances are he/she has the same data written in their notebook, which they wrote down after you sat down to talk about the experiment you did.

This is our first introduction to the real world, where accomplishments are way harder to control and quantify. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not. We're judged simultaneously on something we can control (grades/scores) and on something we can't (publications/opportunities), so it's hard to stomach when things don't go your way.

I'm not sure how graphs in a publication = authorship?

 

[minor.groove]

If this is pervasive, I would accuse them of academic dishonesty. Talk to the dean even. Have your lab notebooks, be able to back things up.

This is the flipside of why documentation is so important in the sciences.

except there is no clearly defined standards for what is required to be granted authorship. just because you have data appear in a figure does not, in all labs, mean the senior and/or first author will find that contribution in and of itself worthy of an authorship. i know people who work with robots and qPCR machines, these are not awarded authorship.

Unfortunately, you likely have little recourse. I'm not advising against talking with the grad student, PI or even a department chair over it, but I wouldn't go around "demanding" anything (unless you are the major contributor of data, and wrote a large percentage of the manuscript which in this case it does not sound as if you did either).

 

[ridethecliche]

There's a lot open to interpretation here, but yeah @minor.groove is right that just doing research doesn't mean publication.

In many places I've been with reasonable PI's: Contributing to research, analysis, and/or the manuscript can lead to authorship. If this had already been dangled in front of you, it's disingenuous. Just working on an experiment that was part of someone else's project isn't enough. You have to contribute to it as well. If you were helping the PI and or the grad student refine what you were doing, then I think this counts, but others will disagree.

I've been so lucky with this stuff in my life.

I'm not sure how graphs in a publication = authorship?

I'm guessing they meant to say that were made as a result of the experiments they did.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

It looks like my options are limited to the new PI who is out of the loop.

I was thinking maybe the department chair for graduate students? We recently lost another undergraduate and he went to this and got him in trouble. I don't know if this will get my (purported) due-credit in an authorship though.

Follow your chain of command (i.e. talk to your PI), or you risk losing any support you may have gotten from him/her. If the issue is not resolved with the PI, then go to the department chair.

 

[Goro]

100% concur. Go up the chain of command, if needed.

If this is pervasive, I would accuse them of academic dishonesty. Talk to the dean even. Have your lab notebooks, be able to back things up.

This is the flipside of why documentation is so important in the sciences.

 

[moop]

Just wanted to give a shoutout to @moop thanks for the timeless advice! lol

Trust me, it works every time. Try to get at the scrotum sack for best results. Practice on your roommate first