No clinical volunteering

[Dr. Bob Doe]

I plan on applying to med school this upcoming cycle of 2016 with only some shadowing hours under my belt and no hospital volunteering hours. I've done non-clinical volunteering events for school clubs and programs but no clinical.

I will begin studying for the MCAT this January and with it and my full time job as a pharmacy tech, I'm not sure I'd be able to devout even 3 hours a week for a year to a volunteer gig. Should I just suck it up and do it, compromising a high test score in the process, or can I go with a less time consuming option, like a flexible, come in as you please shadowing opportunity (which I'd enjoy even more)?

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[WedgeDawg]

You need to have some sort of active clinical experience. It doesn't necessarily have to be volunteering, but it has to be working with sick people in a non-observational capacity. If you don't have that, don't apply to medical school until you do. Shadowing doesn't count as active clinical experience. You need both.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Would you post a topic and say "I've never taken organic chem and I think it's a waste of my time, can I apply to med school anyway?"

 

[piii]

.

 

[Doctor Dream]

How do you know with certainty that you want to be a physician if you haven't had ANY exposure to any patients?

 

[whatever5]

To paraphrase Goro, high stats applicants who have never stepped foot in a hospital are the ultimate reject-bait.

 

[619959]

I plan on applying to med school this upcoming cycle of 2016 with only some shadowing hours under my belt and no hospital volunteering hours. I've done non-clinical volunteering events for school clubs and programs but no clinical.

I will begin studying for the MCAT this January and with it and my full time job as a pharmacy tech, I'm not sure I'd be able to devout even 3 hours a week for a year to a volunteer gig. Should I just suck it up and do it, compromising a high test score in the process, or can I go with a less time consuming option, like a flexible, come in as you please shadowing opportunity (which I'd enjoy even more)?

you still have time! Get some volunteering done over the winter break and over the summer! Or do it over the weekend!

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I wouldn't cram in a lot of hours over winter break. Ideally you would do it over a long period of time. I would devote a couple hours each week this semester or take a gap year.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I wouldn't cram in a lot of hours over winter break. Ideally you would do it over a long period of time. I would devote a couple hours each week this semester or take a gap year.

I crammed in a bunch of (read: all of my) hours over a 3 month period. It's not a deal-breaker, but if you're doing a lot in a small amount of time, taking on more responsibility as you go is always a good way to show you're actually invested in what you're doing and not just trying to rack up meaningless hours.

 

[Pastamahn]

You need to have some sort of active clinical experience. It doesn't necessarily have to be volunteering, but it has to be working with sick people in a non-observational capacity. If you don't have that, don't apply to medical school until you do. Shadowing doesn't count as active clinical experience. You need both.

While it's only an n=1, I've gotten into a couple schools this cycle with only shadowing hours for clinical experience. I know it isn't recommended to do what I did, but it's not to say it's a complete app killer. Although, I did have a lot of other volunteer work that I was able to indirectly talk about my interest in medicine.

 

[WedgeDawg]

While it's only an n=1, I've gotten into a couple schools this cycle with only shadowing hours for clinical experience. I know it isn't recommended to do what I did, but it's not to say it's a complete app killer. Although, I did have a lot of other volunteer work that I was able to indirectly talk about my interest in medicine.

Of course, it's definitely possible (though highly improbable), but that doesn't mean that I should recommend that somebody applies to medical school without attempting to procure some active clinical experience.

 

[coldcase331]

I will just say this, when I applied, I had 0 clinical volunteering on my application, only shadowing. While I've gotten plenty of clinical exposure now, the schools have no idea about it. Yet I've managed to get 4 II and 1 acceptance so far. I think that as long as you have meaningful experiences that make you a well rounded applicant, it isn't absolutely necessary. However if you have time to get some clinical exposure, I would definitely do so, since I believe that my lack of it may have hurt my chances at other schools.

 

[Goro]

Indeed! My student interviewers would eat the OP alive. At one recent interview, one particularly voracious student just destroyed the interviewee. I had to kind of restrain my student.

To paraphrase Goro, high stats applicants who have never stepped foot in a hospital are the ultimate reject-bait.

 

[El-Rami]

While it's only an n=1, I've gotten into a couple schools this cycle with only shadowing hours for clinical experience. I know it isn't recommended to do what I did, but it's not to say it's a complete app killer. Although, I did have a lot of other volunteer work that I was able to indirectly talk about my interest in medicine.

This is something that can vary from school to school. Also, out of curiosity, was this a committed thing or just the typical 1-3 weeks of shadowing?

The bottom line, I believe, is whether or not you have meaningful experiences that answer the question 'Why medicine?' That's the entire point of clinical exposure (working or volunteering). Most of the time, shadowing is not enough, but there are exceptions to every rule. Typically, shadowing will only make you more aware of the different duties that physicians perform on the job but will not answer the question of why you want to do medicine (excluding personal stories such as illness of someone you were close to or your own personal illness that gave you an interest in the first place).

Also to answer the OP more directly, the shadowing that you are describing likely will not be enough to make a convincing case for your desire to become a physician. You need something that gives you patient interaction of some sort (even though most of us don't have licensing in anything that allows us to do much of anything), allows you to see the complexities of interaction between physician and patient and other staff, and gives you enough that you can write about a specific experience(s) that made you decide medicine was definitely right for you.

 

[Doug Underhill]

The question isn't whether you can check the box, it's whether you'll end up $200,000 in debt and starting M4 and hating all of your clerkships. The MD is a degree for those who want to practice medicine: it's not a jack-of-all-trades degree where you can spin it into a bunch of different careers (that's more Ph.D really).

It would be unfortunate if you realized you disliked medicine at that point. How do you KNOW medicine is the career for you, without experience? There's no takebacks on those student loans.

 

[Affiche]

Indeed! My student interviewers would eat the OP alive. At one recent interview, one particularly voracious student just destroyed the interviewee. I had to kind of restrain my student.

Your students sound too intense for me.

 

[Lawpy]

Indeed! My student interviewers would eat the OP alive. At one recent interview, one particularly voracious student just destroyed the interviewee. I had to kind of restrain my student.

Remind me to bring a broom if and when I have an opportunity to interview at your school.

 

[LizzyM]

You have done some volunteer service that was non-clinical. [check]
You have done some shadowing. [check]

You have been employed as a pharmacy assistant.

What does this mean? What did you do? Did you speak to people who would be taking medications? Did they ask you questions? Did you respond to them (even if it was to say, "let me get the pharmacist.")? Did you have no interaction with anyone other than fellow workers? Did you have interactions with other health care workers such as nurses, CNAs, unit secretaries, etc? What was the setting in which you worked (hospital, retail pharmacy, nursing home)?

Whether this can count as clinical employment hinges on the sorts of things you did on the job and the setting. If you've never been in close proximity to patients (face to face with them) then it is hard to say that you know what you are getting into and are a good candidate for med school.

 

[Turkishking]

I plan on applying to med school this upcoming cycle of 2016 with only some shadowing hours under my belt and no hospital volunteering hours. I've done non-clinical volunteering events for school clubs and programs but no clinical.

I will begin studying for the MCAT this January and with it and my full time job as a pharmacy tech, I'm not sure I'd be able to devout even 3 hours a week for a year to a volunteer gig. Should I just suck it up and do it, compromising a high test score in the process, or can I go with a less time consuming option, like a flexible, come in as you please shadowing opportunity (which I'd enjoy even more)?

Clinical volunteering is a must have.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Indeed! My student interviewers would eat the OP alive. At one recent interview, one particularly voracious student just destroyed the interviewee. I had to kind of restrain my student.

What's the point of inviting an applicant to an interview if they have no chance? Seems like an enormous waste of time and resources.

 

[blackroses]

Your students sound too intense for me.

I have to say, I had the opposite reaction! Having that strong of a reaction tells me that student really cares about what they're doing - I'd much rather be around that attitude for 4 years than a student body that doesn't feel invested!

 

[Affiche]

I have to say, I had the opposite reaction! Having that strong of a reaction tells me that student really cares about what they're doing - I'd much rather be around that attitude for 4 years than a student body that doesn't feel invested!

Yeah except all of the students who interviewed me had no idea wth they were doing and were more nervous and unprepared than I was. After going through interviews this cycle I personally don't believe medical students have any business conducting interviews, and I would be incredibly put off if one of them started attacking me in the middle of my interview (that's not what an interview is for).

 

[blackroses]

Yeah except all of the students who interviewed me had no idea wth they were doing and were more nervous and unprepared than I was. After going through interviews this cycle I personally don't believe medical students have any business conducting interviews, and I would be incredibly put off if one of them started attacking me in the middle of my interview (that's not what an interview is for).

RE: the last part.. Again I have to say I disagree. I can tell a lot about whether or not I'll be able to put up with a person by how they react when they're baited a bit. I suspect that this is not an uncommon tactic (@Goro, I'm looking at you!)

 

[Affiche]

RE: the last part.. Again I have to say I disagree. I can tell a lot about whether or not I'll be able to put up with a person by how they react when they're baited a bit. I suspect that this is not an uncommon tactic (@Goro, I'm looking at you!)

Have you interviewed yet? Just wondering

 

[huskygirl123]

When I went to tour a school in NY last month I heard an anectote from an adcom about a bright guy from Harvard, 3.9 sGPA, 38 MCAT, lots of publications, glowing LOR that didn't even get an II because he had no clinical experience. Maybe it does depend on the school and on what the OP wants to get from medical school (service vs academic medicine vs med research).
I knew I wanted to go to medical school (for multiple reasons) before I started clinical volunteering, however I think that the clinical "experience" shows your commitment, and in my opinion it makes the hole process of applying more worthwhile. ED volunteering is what I do for fun, because I enjoy it not because it will "look good."
I'm sure you can squeeze some hours in (I did 15 hrs/week on top of working full time and taking 3 classes - that's the time I'd have spend watching TV or doing other things otherwise).
BUT... as someone else said you might have already had clinical experience through your work (I worked as a pharm tech years ago but in the setting I worked I could not count it as clinical but more clerkical).
Good luck!

 

[blackroses]

Have you interviewed yet? Just wondering

Case in point

 

[Affiche]

Case in point

So no, you haven't. And that doesn't support your point lol it supports that you're speculating about something you have no experience with.

 

[Affiche]

And for the OP I applied with zero clinical volunteering hours. I shadowed a lot and work in clinical research but I never volunteered in hospital or clinical setting. The pre-meds saying that it's a must don't know what they're talking about. LizzyM's post is on point though that how much patient interaction you have as a pharmacy tech will be important.

FWIW, I was accepted to every school I interviewed at, had to cancel interviews because I received too many and ended up getting a full tuition scholarship to one of my top choices. As long as you have a lot of shadowing hours and some clinical work experience you will be fine.

 

[Goro]

Admissions deans have different mandates (fill seats with warm bodies) than do faculty and student interviewers (fill seats with people who will make good doctors.)

What's the point of inviting an applicant to an interview if they have no chance? Seems like an enormous waste of time and resources.

 

[Affiche]

Admissions deans have different mandates (fill seats with warm bodies) than do faculty and student interviewers (fill seats with people who will make good doctors.)

And a student with no interviewing experience or experience actually being a doctor yet is going to find that? I'm unconvinced.

 

[blackroses]

So no, you haven't. And that doesn't support your point lol it supports that you're speculating about something you have no experience with.

If what you're doing can't be considered baiting, I don't know what can!

 

[Glazedonutlove]

And a student with no interviewing experience or experience actually being a doctor yet is going to find that? I'm unconvinced.

Most of my student interviewers were fourth year students. Having just gone through the entire process of med school, I think they are qualified to discern who would be a good fit for their specific school. Sorry you had that experience though

 

[Affiche]

Most of my student interviewers were fourth year students. Having just gone through the entire process of med school, I think they are qualified to discern who would be a good fit for their specific school. Sorry you had that experience though

I mean it worked out because I was admitted lol but I still don't think med students should be interviewing. The fourth year who interviewed me was incredibly kind and thought I would be a great fit for her school, but I wish I had a faculty member interview me instead. I interviewed there early so the year just started, but she wasn't able to tell me much about fourth year beyond what her own experience was starting to look like. I also just think having experience as an interviewer is invaluable in this process lol who wants to risk having a bad interview because the med student botched their 30 minutes to ask questions?

I also had a second year interview me which I thought was incredibly inappropriate. Anyone who may become my future classmate should not have access to my application. Plus, second years have had like one year of medical school and can't answer hardly anything about clinical rotations or even preparation for step 1.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I mean it worked out because I was admitted lol but I still don't think med students should be interviewing. The fourth year who interviewed me was incredibly kind and thought I would be a great fit for her school, but I wish I had a faculty member interview me instead. I interviewed there early so the year just started, but she wasn't able to tell me much about fourth year beyond what her own experience was starting to look like. I also just think having experience as an interviewer is invaluable in this process lol who wants to risk having a bad interview because the med student botched their 30 minutes to ask questions?

I also had a second year interview me which I thought was incredibly inappropriate. Anyone who may become my future classmate should not have access to my application. Plus, second years have had like one year of medical school and can't answer hardly anything about clinical rotations or even preparation for step 1.

huh that's interesting-- I've always had one or two faculty interviews in addition to student. I suppose it depends on the school
It was nice to have insight from both personally

btw congrats on your acceptance!

 

[deleted393595]

Remind me to bring a broom if and when I have an opportunity to interview at your school.

You'll also have to bring those Hefty Extra-Strength Glad trash bags to take out the bodies.

 

[Goro]

The students know who they want as colleagues. Keep in mind they've been down this road before (as pre-meds and interviewees). As interviewers they get mentoring from the Admissions dean, Faculty and senior students as well.

And I firmly believe that students should always be on the interview panel. After all, they made the choice to come to the med school!

And a student with no interviewing experience or experience actually being a doctor yet is going to find that? I'm unconvinced.

 

[Affiche]

The students know who they want as colleagues. Keep in mind they've been down this road before (as pre-meds and interviewees). As interviewers they get mentoring from the Admissions dean, Faculty and senior students as well.

And I firmly believe that students should always be on the interview panel. After all, they made the choice to come to the med school!

Meh, I'm still unconvinced. Making the decision to attend med school doesn't give you the credentials or experience to help decide for other people. Besides, you say yourself all the time that your students are overly harsh on the people they interview and faculty often has to reel them back in to save good candidates. They're too inexperienced and don't know what they're doing.

 

[Goro]

Having worked with them for well over a decade, I'd say that they're simply overprotective of their school and their professions. If they were inexperienced, they'd ask poor questions. I agree we need to jerk them back into reality at times, but that's the value of having multiple interviewers.

Meh, I'm still unconvinced. Making the decision to attend med school doesn't give you the credentials or experience to help decide for other people. Besides, you say yourself all the time that your students are overly harsh on the people they interview and faculty often has to reel them back in to save good candidates. They're too inexperienced and don't know what they're doing.

 

[Affiche]

Having worked with them for well over a decade, I'd say that they're simply overprotective of their school and their professions. If they were inexperienced, they'd ask poor questions. I agree we need to jerk them back into reality at times, but that's the value of having multiple interviewers.

Right, and their overprotective behavior seems like it's obstructive. I find it to be incredibly unprofessional to lash out at an applicant during an interview, especially coming from a student interviewer. That gives me the impression that the students are immature and unprofessional more than it does that they care deeply. Obviously they care, otherwise why volunteer to interview me? Lol

The best interview experience I had used two faculty members to interview so that we still had multiple interviewers but no students. We had lunch with fourth years and had ample time to ask them questions and socialize. How it should be lol.

 

[Goro]

Ahhh, I understand the source of the confusion. I should have been more clear when I say " my students will eat you alive".

What I mean is that my students are in reality very professional and honestly interested in the candidates and conduct themselves very professionally. However they will evaluate candidates with little or no clinical experience much more harshly than other candidates.

They will typically state what the faculty members state, that is, this person doesn't understand what he or she is getting into.

Right, and their overprotective behavior seems like it's obstructive. I find it to be incredibly unprofessional to lash out at an applicant during an interview, especially coming from a student interviewer. That gives me the impression that the students are immature and unprofessional more than it does that they care deeply. Obviously they care, otherwise why volunteer to interview me? Lol

The best interview experience I had used two faculty members to interview so that we still had multiple interviewers but no students. We had lunch with fourth years and had ample time to ask them questions and socialize. How it should be lol.

 

[allanMED15]

The students know who they want as colleagues. Keep in mind they've been down this road before (as pre-meds and interviewees). As interviewers they get mentoring from the Admissions dean, Faculty and senior students as well.

And I firmly believe that students should always be on the interview panel. After all, they made the choice to come to the med school!

I completely agree with this. The school that I have interviewed at has 10 full standing 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year students on their admissions committee. I really enjoyed hearing that as I would want a say in who joined my community if given the opportunity.

 

[123456123456]

I feel even if you do good on the MCAT and have a good GPA, you need more clinical experience then some shadowing and being a pharmacy tech.

I am not sure if this is offered in your area but I volunteered at a fire station for about 815 hours and once you get established and earn your spot there, you usually can have some time to study if it is a slow station. I received all my certifications through the station, they only required a first responder class which only took a few weeks for a few hours that they paid for and CPR. However, if nothing like this is offered in your area then you need to try to figure out time to volunteer at the hospital or clinic or some other type of clinical experience for at least a few hours weekly minimum since you are lacking hours. If you cannot find time to do that, I suggest taking an extra year before applying and get your MCAT over with and then try to rack up clinical experiences consistently (maybe 2 different experiences if you take an extra year)

 

[KaBoom'd]

Have you tried to find clinical volunteering or are you just saying you don't have time? I just started volunteering in a hospital on Saturday mornings because that's the only free time I have. Saturday mornings aren't ideal, but whatever. I'm applying 2016 as well, so it's not too late. Some is better than none.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

You need to have some sort of active clinical experience. It doesn't necessarily have to be volunteering, but it has to be working with sick people in a non-observational capacity. If you don't have that, don't apply to medical school until you do. Shadowing doesn't count as active clinical experience. You need both.

Wouldn't my experience as a pharm tech count as work with sick people in a non-observational capacity?

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

And for the OP I applied with zero clinical volunteering hours. I shadowed a lot and work in clinical research but I never volunteered in hospital or clinical setting. The pre-meds saying that it's a must don't know what they're talking about. LizzyM's post is on point though that how much patient interaction you have as a pharmacy tech will be important.

FWIW, I was accepted to every school I interviewed at, had to cancel interviews because I received too many and ended up getting a full tuition scholarship to one of my top choices. As long as you have a lot of shadowing hours and some clinical work experience you will be fine.

Superb, Regina!

 

[LizzyM]

Wouldn't my experience as a pharm tech count as work with sick people in a non-observational capacity?

Do you see sick people? Do you speak with them? Do they speak to you? If they are so far away that you can't catch a whiff of them then it isn't a clinical experience.

 

[Annabell Lee]

I also had a second year interview me which I thought was incredibly inappropriate. Anyone who may become my future classmate should not have access to my application. Plus, second years have had like one year of medical school and can't answer hardly anything about clinical rotations or even preparation for step 1.

Oi, that makes me nervous. I'm only a sophomore but I'm still trying to decide just how personal certain aspects of my application should be. I'm sure they would be professional about any information gained, but still, that makes me a bit more hesitant.

Do you see sick people? Do you speak with them? Do they speak to you? If they are so far away that you can't catch a whiff of them then it isn't a clinical experience.

Every time you mention your smell based philosophy on clinical experience I want to ask if I can get bonus points for being able to identify C. Diff from the opposite end of the hall.

 

[Affiche]

Ahhh, I understand the source of the confusion. I should have been more clear when I say " my students will eat you alive".

What I mean is that my students are in reality very professional and honestly interested in the candidates and conduct themselves very professionally. However they will evaluate candidates with little or no clinical experience much more harshly than other candidates.

They will typically state what the faculty members state, that is, this person doesn't understand what he or she is getting into.

Yeah but tbh I don't think a second year or even third year early in the cycle has the experience to even comprehend what they've signed up for yet, either. When I've worked with my godparents and their residents it's largely understood that the interns are only just starting to grasp what they've gotten themselves into.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Affiche]

Oi, that makes me nervous. I'm only a sophomore but I'm still trying to decide just how personal certain aspects of my application should be. I'm sure they would be professional about any information gained, but still, that makes me a bit more hesitant.


Every time you mention your smell based philosophy on clinical experience I want to ask if I can get bonus points for being able to identify C. Diff from the opposite end of the hall.

Yeah I was super pissed and totally uncomfortable. My personal statement was obviously personal and while I'm very comfortable sharing it with an adcom it should have been at my discretion to share it with potential future peers. I thought this was very unprofessional of the school. Ugh not to mention the second year was completely unimpressive and said really idiotic and inappropriate things in our interview.

Sorry, but after working clinically for a few years I really don't see the point of having a student who's younger than me with less clinical experience sit there and pick apart my application like he/she is all-knowing, not to mention may possibly be a classmate of mine. Maybe 4th years would be fine but first and second have no business being involved in this process.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Whenever I had an interview with a student who was not a fourth year, it was a closed file interview, where we just had a conversation. I wouldn't care if a classmate read my ps, but I can see how it may be awkward if it was very private stuff.