No clinical volunteering

[LizzyM]

Yeah I was super pissed and totally uncomfortable. My personal statement was obviously personal and while I'm very comfortable sharing it with an adcom it should have been at my discretion to share it with potential future peers. I thought this was very unprofessional of the school. Ugh not to mention the second year was completely unimpressive and said really idiotic and inappropriate things in our interview.

Sorry, but after working clinically for a few years I really don't see the point of having a student who's younger than me with less clinical experience sit there and pick apart my application like he/she is all-knowing, not to mention may possibly be a classmate of mine. Maybe 4th years would be fine but first and second have no business being involved in this process.

You are going to have superiors who are younger than you and with less clinical experience evaluate you when you become a medical student. I hope you are ok with that.

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[Affiche]

You are going to have superiors who are younger than you and with less clinical experience evaluate you when you become a medical student. I hope you are ok with that.

With something they've done before and non-personal? Totally fine. But to scrutinize my numbers and personal experiences for an admission decision rubs me the wrong way.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

Start now

If you're applying this cycle, then starting MCAT studying in Jan. will give you more than enough time even working full time. Write in May....that's 4 months which is plently of time

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Do you see sick people? Do you speak with them? Do they speak to you? If they are so far away that you can't catch a whiff of them then it isn't a clinical experience.

As a pharmacy tech I get the privilege of being the last leg of the patient's journey to wellness, the treatment step. We see and deal with sick people on a daily basis, they come expecting relief from a medical condition at the behest of their physician. We techs consult with doctor's offices, hospitals and insurance companies on the patient's behalf, monitor and maintain patient records, provide patient drug education and help them get flu shots, albeit this is in a retail nevertheless I've decided to volunteer at a hospital.

 

[El-Rami]

As a pharmacy tech I get the privilege of being the last leg of the patient's journey to wellness, the treatment step. We see and deal with sick people on a daily basis, they come expecting relief from a medical condition at the behest of their physician. We techs consult with doctor's offices, hospitals and insurance companies on the patient's behalf, monitor and maintain patient records, provide patient drug education and help them get flu shots, albeit this is in a retail nevertheless I've decided to volunteer at a hospital.

Well, you obviously have had clinical exposure, then. Volunteer at a hospital if you absolutely want to, but you are likely fine.

 

[MerYangBey]

When I applied I had zero shadowing hours, and no time in a hospital whatsoever.
After so many attempts I finally found a doctor to shadow but that was after I had sent out most apps.
I worked for a year in a nursing home type setting taking care of people that have chronic medical conditions.
At one interview my lack of hospital time was brought up. I was able to explain my situation and I talked about my job/other experiences...
I have a couple acceptances so far.

 

[El-Rami]

When I applied I had zero shadowing hours, and no time in a hospital whatsoever.
After so many attempts I finally found a doctor to shadow but that was after I had sent out most apps.
I worked for a year in a nursing home type setting taking care of people that have chronic medical conditions.
At one interview my lack of hospital time was brought up. I was able to explain my situation and I talked about my job/other experiences...
I have a couple acceptances so far.

Sorry if I am being dense, but how did you work a year in a nursing home prior to your interviews during applications? This sounds like you found a job during your cycle. How long did your orientation take?

 

[MerYangBey]

Sorry if I am being dense, but how did you work a year in a nursing home prior to your interviews during applications? This sounds like you found a job during your cycle. How long did your orientation take?

I started the summer after junior year- worked all through senior year-and I quit after graduation. I applied after graduation so I have a few glorious months to relax before I start med school (aka gap year).

 

[vellez]

You are the definition (currently) of an applicant who doesn't get in their first time. Spend time on GPA and MCAT and ignore volunteering/clinical. You WON'T get in without SIGNIFICANT time in these areas.

 

[Lawpy]

You are the definition (currently) of an applicant who doesn't get in their first time. Spend time on GPA and MCAT and ignore volunteering/clinical. You WON'T get in without SIGNIFICANT time in these areas.

How would you define significant?

 

[Glazedonutlove]

How would you define significant?

There is no strict definition of significant because people choose to do many different things to get clinical experience. Most volunteer at hospitals on a weekly basis, others work at nursing homes, and some do EMT/CNA work. I agree with her/him that anyone who is thinking of applying to med school without clinical experience is putting a lot at stake. I'm glad the posters above got accepted but I hope their stories do not encourage anyone here to take that risk.

 

[Lawpy]

There is no strict definition of significant because people choose to do many different things to get clinical experience. Most volunteer at hospitals on a weekly basis, others work at nursing homes, and some do EMT/CNA work. I agree with her/him that anyone who is thinking of applying to med school without clinical experience is putting a lot at stake. I'm glad the posters above got accepted but I hope their stories do not encourage anyone here to take that risk.

I'm a little confused here on two things.

1. Affiche and few others and OP were discussing about having no clinical volunteering. This is different from having no clinical experience at all, which i agree is lethal. But i don't see how having a lack of clinical volunteering itself is lethal when ample clinical experience through jobs and research can make up for it

2. vellez specifically underlined significant without giving any elaboration what significant means. Is it the hours? The experience? Is it possible to have a strong clinical experience with only a semester's work of clinical volunteering/work?

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I'm a little confused here on two things.

1. Affiche and few others and OP were discussing about having no clinical volunteering. This is different from having no clinical experience at all, which i agree is lethal. But i don't see how having a lack of clinical volunteering itself is lethal when ample clinical experience through jobs and research can make up for it

2. vellez specifically underlined significant without giving any elaboration what significant means. Is it the hours? The experience? Is it possible to have a strong clinical experience with only a semester's work of clinical volunteering/work?

1. altruism

2. If you become premed your freshman year, then I assume you would naturally want to spend time in a clinical setting to understand more about the field. If you like the activity, you would then likely accumulate hours over a long period of time until you apply. If you decide to be premed your senior year, then you would have a semester of premed activities. It depends on so many things in your application I'm not sure there is a definite answer to those questions (maybe @LizzyM can advice). For instance, let's say you have great numbers/research/non clinical volunteering + clinical work. If you had a semester of clinical volunteering, I think you would be fine bc you have given back to society in other ways. If you rack up all volunteering hours the semester you apply, I think you are aware how that will be seen.

 

[El-Rami]

1. altruism

That can be demonstrated by nonclinical volunteering, though. Clinical volunteering is not necessary because you can get clinical experience through work or other ways. Again, it's what you got out of it, not whether or not it has "volunteering" appended to the name.

 

[Lawpy]

1. altruism

2. If you become premed your freshman year, then I assume you would naturally want to spend time in a clinical setting to understand more about the field. If you like the activity, you would then likely accumulate hours over a long period of time until you apply. If you decide to be premed your senior year, then you would have a semester of premed activities. It depends on so many things in your application I'm not sure there is a definite answer to those questions (maybe @LizzyM can advice). For instance, let's say you have great numbers/research/non clinical volunteering + clinical work. If you had a semester of clinical volunteering, I think you would be fine bc you have given back to society in other ways. If you rack up all volunteering hours the semester you apply, I think you are aware how that will be seen.

Yeah that's the best possible solution. I mean, volunteering in nonclinical settings is great, since as you mentioned, it gives back to the society in many ways. Clinical work is also good, but it seems to be going a bit overboard to say that clinical volunteering itself is absolutely required even when nonclinical volunteering and clinical work/research (on top of other stuff) are taken care of and well established.

That can be demonstrated by nonclinical volunteering, though. Clinical volunteering is not necessary because you can get clinical experience through work or other ways. Again, it's what you got out of it, not whether or not it has "volunteering" appended to the name.

Yeah exactly. I think it's good to have clinical volunteering but saying that clinical volunteering is a must is exaggerating things, when nonclinical volunteering and clinical work are already described in detail.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

That can be demonstrated by nonclinical volunteering, though. Clinical volunteering is not necessary because you can get clinical experience through work or other ways. Again, it's what you got out of it, not whether or not it has "volunteering" appended to the name.

you should read the whole post

 

[vellez]

I'm a little confused here on two things.

1. Affiche and few others and OP were discussing about having no clinical volunteering. This is different from having no clinical experience at all, which i agree is lethal. But i don't see how having a lack of clinical volunteering itself is lethal when ample clinical experience through jobs and research can make up for it

2. vellez specifically underlined significant without giving any elaboration what significant means. Is it the hours? The experience? Is it possible to have a strong clinical experience with only a semester's work of clinical volunteering/work?

What I meant by significant is not by hours. I meant a volunteer experience that is significant to the applicant. # of hours help, but what really helps more is being able to write about (and talk about) and activity that the applicant is passionate about. You can't do that unless it was "significant" to you. Usually to make an activity significant, you need to spend a lot of hours on it (though not always).

 

[Dohnut]

I actually burned the M4 student interviewer real bad at the same school's MMI's where another interviewer gave me a double handed handshake. Thought it was an odd mixture, lol.

Indeed! My student interviewers would eat the OP alive. At one recent interview, one particularly voracious student just destroyed the interviewee. I had to kind of restrain my student.

 

[Dohnut]

It really depends on what setting (or class of pharmacy to be technical) you're working under. LTC pharm techs have no patient interaction whatsoever. Hospital pharm techs mostly fill up Pixus machines and I wouldn't consider that clinical experience.

Refer to LizzyM's reply.

Wouldn't my experience as a pharm tech count as work with sick people in a non-observational capacity?

 

[Dohnut]

Can I double or triple like this post?

Yeah I was super pissed and totally uncomfortable. My personal statement was obviously personal and while I'm very comfortable sharing it with an adcom it should have been at my discretion to share it with potential future peers. I thought this was very unprofessional of the school. Ugh not to mention the second year was completely unimpressive and said really idiotic and inappropriate things in our interview.

Sorry, but after working clinically for a few years I really don't see the point of having a student who's younger than me with less clinical experience sit there and pick apart my application like he/she is all-knowing, not to mention may possibly be a classmate of mine. Maybe 4th years would be fine but first and second have no business being involved in this process.

 

[Dohnut]

Unfortunately that's exactly what happened to me at one school. The student interviewer attacked me and I burned him alive in response.

Edit: the burn was done in a professional manner, the M4 had nothing to say and had to move on to the next questions, lol

Yeah except all of the students who interviewed me had no idea wth they were doing and were more nervous and unprepared than I was. After going through interviews this cycle I personally don't believe medical students have any business conducting interviews, and I would be incredibly put off if one of them started attacking me in the middle of my interview (that's not what an interview is for).

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

You are the definition (currently) of an applicant who doesn't get in their first time. Spend time on GPA and MCAT and ignore volunteering/clinical. You WON'T get in without SIGNIFICANT time in these areas.

As a pharmacy tech I get the privilege of being the last leg of the patient's journey to wellness, the treatment step. We see and deal with sick people on a daily basis, they come expecting relief from a medical condition at the behest of their physician. We techs consult with doctor's offices, hospitals and insurance companies on the patient's behalf, monitor and maintain patient records, provide patient drug education and help them get flu shots, albeit this is in a retail nevertheless I've decided to volunteer at a hospital.

 

[Dohnut]

That's patient experience, which is also very important. Add some spin you can say it's clinical experience, but that's stretching it because all clinical work in the pharmacy is legally supposed to be done by pharmacists.

I say paid work in patient experience trumps the hollow volunteer experience where you take on no responsibility whatsoever.

Try shadowing physicians though.

As a pharmacy tech I get the privilege of being the last leg of the patient's journey to wellness, the treatment step. We see and deal with sick people on a daily basis, they come expecting relief from a medical condition at the behest of their physician. We techs consult with doctor's offices, hospitals and insurance companies on the patient's behalf, monitor and maintain patient records, provide patient drug education and help them get flu shots, albeit this is in a retail nevertheless I've decided to volunteer at a hospital.

 

[Dohnut]

Having younger, more traditional medical students interview nontrads who have had a real life career and experience of at least 5 years without faculty oversight is a bad idea, especially when interviewing nontrad healthcare professional applicants one on one with real world clinical and patient experiences.

Applicants with one or two gap years shouldn't qualify for nontrads, and thus OK to be interviewed by med students, IMHO.

 

[LizzyM]

At my school, the medical student interview is closed file and the interviewers are M4 students. The point of the interview with a student is to answer the applicant's questions about the school and for both parties to assess whether the school is a good fit for the applicant's interests and personality.

Also, regardless of how much work experience/life experience you've had prior to medical school anyone with who is already in medical school will never be your "peer" (until you are both attendings) but will always be ahead of you so all this "will be my peer" stuff is malarkey. Unlike college where students of different graduating classes mix in the classroom, medical students do not.

 

[WedgeDawg]

@Lawper @Glazedonutlove

You need volunteering and you need clinical experience, but you don't necessarily need clinical volunteering.

 

[Gibbward]

@WedgeDawg How would you view non-clinical volunteering with constant interactions with sick people plus being a suicide support hotline volunteer (clinical experience with good interaction, but not physically interaction, with patients)? Sufficient or not?

 

[WedgeDawg]

@WedgeDawg How would you view non-clinical volunteering with constant interactions with sick people plus being a suicide support hotline volunteer (clinical experience with good interaction, but not physically interaction, with patients)? Sufficient or not?

Probably sufficient, but I would also wait for an adcom to weigh in too.

 

[bearintraining]

The question isn't whether you can check the box, it's whether you'll end up $200,000 in debt and starting M4 and hating all of your clerkships. The MD is a degree for those who want to practice medicine: it's not a jack-of-all-trades degree where you can spin it into a bunch of different careers (that's more Ph.D really).

It would be unfortunate if you realized you disliked medicine at that point. How do you KNOW medicine is the career for you, without experience? There's no takebacks on those student loans.

EEK, this is a horrible generalization. PhDs are much more pigeonholed these days than anyone else, IMO.

 

[Dohnut]

If it was a traditional 30 min interview with that same M4 then it'd have beena lot better and we might even be able to know each other well, if not becoming friends. Problem was, it was a short MMI so we had to get to the business first....

At my school, the medical student interview is closed file and the interviewers are M4 students. The point of the interview with a student is to answer the applicant's questions about the school and for both parties to assess whether the school is a good fit for the applicant's interests and personality.

Also, regardless of how much work experience/life experience you've had prior to medical school anyone with who is already in medical school will never be your "peer" (until you are both attendings) but will always be ahead of you so all this "will be my peer" stuff is malarkey. Unlike college where students of different graduating classes mix in the classroom, medical students do not.

 

[Affiche]

If it was a traditional 30 min interview with that same M4 then it'd have beena lot better and we might even be able to know each other well, if not becoming friends. Problem was, it was a short MMI so we had to get to the business first....

I agree with you. I think adcoms are blissfully unaware of how socially awkward and ill-prepared some of their students are for interviewing. They want to believe that their students epitomize professionalism and are high-functioning in these situations but many of us can speak from experience that that is clearly not always the case. I would give adcoms much more credit on this subject if they'd admit the flaws of student interviewing, but that remains to be unseen lol.

If you want students to answer questions then invite them to lunch, not to the interview. Tbh I'm more likely to filter questions in an interview than at lunch so student interviewing still isn't justified. Why should anyone be evaluated by a clueless student? It's the same reason PBL and TBL get negative feedback...why should anyone have to learn from their clueless classmates?

 

[Azete]

Just as a contrarian point-of-view, I had zero clinical volunteering and it did not impact my application process even slightly (received an interview at 20% of the schools I applied to). I had over 1200 hours of non-clinical volunteering and less than 100 hours of shadowing (which was all of my clinical experience).

I would still recommend clinical volunteering as I'm sure some of the schools I applied to rejected me due to my lack of clinical exposure. But it's not an absolutely necessity as long as you have a history of altruism and you can adequately convince an admissions committee that you know what you're getting into.

 

[Affiche]

Also, regardless of how much work experience/life experience you've had prior to medical school anyone with who is already in medical school will never be your "peer" (until you are both attendings) but will always be ahead of you so all this "will be my peer" stuff is malarkey. Unlike college where students of different graduating classes mix in the classroom, medical students do not.

Multiple schools that I've interviewed at do not allow students in different grade levels to evaluate younger students, but encourage them to mingle in social settings and through mentoring to establish support. One of the schools in particular encourages socializing with "your older peers", which was stated over and over on interview day, so while they may be "ahead" in the curriculum they are still considered "peers". I guess it depends on the school how medical students are viewed.

One of my student interviewers was legitimately so nervous that her voice was shaking throughout our entire interview. Like wtf I should not be comforting you while you're supposed to be interviewing me lol.

 

[Gibbward]

Probably sufficient, but I would also wait for an adcom to weigh in too.

Thanks for the reply!

Anyone other thoughts on this would be very much appreciated!

 

[Portablemed]

it is important and also allows you to figure out if you really like medicine

 

[StaphMorpheus]

Multiple schools that I've interviewed at do not allow students in different grade levels to evaluate younger students, but encourage them to mingle in social settings and through mentoring to establish support. One of the schools in particular encourages socializing with "your older peers", which was stated over and over on interview day, so while they may be "ahead" in the curriculum they are still considered "peers". I guess it depends on the school how medical students are viewed.

One of my student interviewers was legitimately so nervous that her voice was shaking throughout our entire interview. Like wtf I should not be comforting you while you're supposed to be interviewing me lol.

that is because some socially awkward people make it into medical school

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Can you guys stop hating on the student interviewers? Give it a break. Just because you had that experience with one person does not give you an excuse to generalize. I thought mine were professional and did their job really well.

 

[Affiche]

A few doing a decent job doesn't mean the practice should continue, resulting in tons of applicants having substandard interview experiences. And it wasn't one person, it was literally all four student interviewers that I had lol but okay, let's keep quiet about our multiple awful experiences so schools don't realize how common these experiences are

I won't derail the thread anymore though...didn't expect it to become this large of a discussion...sorry OP

 

[Glazedonutlove]

A few doing a decent job doesn't mean the practice should continue, resulting in tons of applicants having substandard interview experiences. And it wasn't one person, it was literally all four student interviewers that I had lol but okay, let's keep quiet about our multiple awful experiences so schools don't realize how common these experiences are

I won't derail the thread anymore though...didn't expect it to become this large of a discussion...sorry OP

I don't mean to discredit what you experienced. I'm just wondering why you feel the need to post here about this topic continuously when most schools give you a survey that lets you give feedback about your interview experience. Keeping silent is not right, but complaining about it in a place where you likely won't make a different is not helping.

 

[MerYangBey]

I don't mean to discredit what you experienced. I'm just wondering why you feel the need to post here about this topic continuously when most schools give you a survey that lets you give feedback about your interview experience. Keeping silent is not right, but complaining about it in a place where you likely won't make a different is not helping.

Sharing an opinion/experience is very different than complaining. Granted we did get a little off topic but student interviews were discussed by several other people.

 

[Dohnut]

A lot of the specific job duties you listed here are legally restricted to registered pharmacists, and there's MD's and DO's out there who were BS Pharm and RPh's, so tread lightly. Your biggest advantage is patient experience/interaction here.

- A practicing pharmacist of nearly 7 years going thru med school interviewing process right now

As a pharmacy tech I get the privilege of being the last leg of the patient's journey to wellness, the treatment step. We see and deal with sick people on a daily basis, they come expecting relief from a medical condition at the behest of their physician. We techs consult with doctor's offices, hospitals and insurance companies on the patient's behalf, monitor and maintain patient records, provide patient drug education and help them get flu shots, albeit this is in a retail nevertheless I've decided to volunteer at a hospital.

 

[Dohnut]

It sounds like we got a lot in common. Would you mind if I PM you to ask some questions please?

A few doing a decent job doesn't mean the practice should continue, resulting in tons of applicants having substandard interview experiences. And it wasn't one person, it was literally all four student interviewers that I had lol but okay, let's keep quiet about our multiple awful experiences so schools don't realize how common these experiences are

I won't derail the thread anymore though...didn't expect it to become this large of a discussion...sorry OP

 

[Affiche]

It sounds like we got a lot in common. Would you mind if I PM you to ask some questions please?

Nope, go ahead

 

[Goro]

Excellent!

@WedgeDawg How would you view non-clinical volunteering with constant interactions with sick people plus being a suicide support hotline volunteer (clinical experience with good interaction, but not physically interaction, with patients)? Sufficient or not?

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

A lot of the specific job duties you listed here are legally restricted to registered pharmacists, and there's MD's and DO's out there who were BS Pharm and RPh's, so tread lightly. Your biggest advantage is patient experience/interaction here.

- A practicing pharmacist of nearly 7 years going thru med school interviewing process right now

I don't actually administer flu shots or accept incoming prescriptions from docs but I do help with the similar clerical duties most medical assistants or secretaries do. I can inform patients what meds they're taking and what they do I just can't give consults.

 

[dreamadream]

I don't have any clinical experience either, I'm working part-time as a dining server at a nursing home.

 

[Cawolf]

I was accepted with zero volunteering, clinical or non-clinical. It is just a matter of how you present your experiences to demonstrate you have the capacity to be a capable physician. I would say that if you lack volunteering, you should have a large amount of experience in another area; for me that was paid clinical experience.