No Letter Of Reference to new schools

[iiii]

I've asked my long-time optometrist (and one of his partners) to write my LOR for my opt school application.

They both told me they won't write a letter for anyone applying to Western, Midwestestern, or Incarnate Word. They feel strongly that the new schools weren't necessary and will be substandard programs for the first 5-10 years.

I don't plan on going to any of these schools, but would consider it as a fall-back option if I couldn't get in anywhere else.

Do I commit to not applying to them, or look for another LOR from someone who doesn't know me?

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[optsuker]

He's doing you the favor, so I think it up to you to agree to the terms he's given (and keep your word later), or look elsewhere.

I don't see any arrogance, just someone making his position known, and being consistent.

I also think the new schools are unnecessary, will be a poorer quality education, and the early classes will be filled with the bottom of the barrel of applicants. I don't think I'd go so far as to withhold a LOR for someone I've had a long relationship though.

I probably would never consider hiring an associate from one of these schools unless they were truly exceptional & I think a lot of my colleagues think the same way.

 

[iiii]

Your optometrist's letter of recommendation will be sent directly to OptomCas and not to each school individually. Your optometrist doesn't even need to know where you are applying.

So you'd advise being dishonest as a means to getting the LOR?

If I was in your position, I'd give that optometrist a piece of my mind.

Really?
You'd chew out your family's long-time eye doctor because he adds a caveat to doing you a huge favor? I pressed him about this, and he truly believes that these new programs will be weak and may limit my ability to find a good practice opportunity after graduation. He stated that he has my best interest at heart, and wants to emphasize something that most applicants don't realize. I can now see his point.

I did show him your post, so here's your chance to give him a piece of your mind:

 

[KHE]

Dishonest? You don't have to tell your optometrist anything. Simply say that you are applying to optometry schools and leave it at that. It's your business to which schools you select to apply.

A level headed optometrist (basically a "good guy" in general) is going to write you a letter of recommendation based solely upon YOU, the applicant, and not the programs in which you select to apply.

As far as showing your optometrist my previous post, I find this pretty ridiculous and unnecessary. I am assuming you were one of those fifth grade "tattletales". Personally, I don’t feel like debating this back and forth with you so let’s just leave it at this:


Live and let live...

I don't generally agree with this. I don't think I would withold a letter for someone based solely on it being a new school but I've declined to write letters for people who are applying to schools that I know they won't be successful at.

I had a young man want me to write him a letter to go to Berkley. I declined. The kid was very bright, high GPA, high OAT, personable etc etc but he was by far and away the biggest mamma's boy I've ever come accross and he was like 24. He was even still living at home. There was NO WAY this kid would have made it being that far from home. NO WAY. But I gladly wrote him one to NEWENCO and last I heard he's doing well.

So there is merrit in knowing what schools you are applying to not just because of issues like that, but many of us have relationships or classmates who are now at some of the schools and sometimes a correctly worded letter sent to the right person can get you better results than a generic "I recommend this person."

Lastly, I disagree with your notion about the other person being a tattle tale. You yourself said you would give that doctor a piece of your mind. You had your chance and balked.

Let me offer up this piece of unsolicited advice to anyone out there:

DO NOT EVER PUT ANYTHING ON THE INTERNET, OR IN AN EMAIL, OR IN A TEXT MESSAGE, OR IN A VOICEMAIL THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE WILLING TO PUT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NEW YORK TIMES.

 

[KHE]

Balked? I have enough class to recognize this as being an inappropriate situation to express my opinions towards someone. I would gladly discuss this with that optometrist face to face. We all know that isn't a possibility, though.

In general, I agree with everything else mentioned...

I agree that putting it in a public forum is inappropriate but this forum does have a PM function. Try that if you really want to give someone a piece of your mind.

 

[optsuker]

Agree with Ken.

I read your post as advising iiii to deceive her OD to get a LOR.
Poor moral choice and you posted your weak ethics on a public forum.
Adding disclaimers later won't undo the damage.

I've had a student work in my office the last 2 summers & knowing where she'd applied made a huge difference. I hope a private note to my alma mater to watch for her application & having friends on faculty at another institution will make a difference for her.

I hope the students reading this exchange take you as an example of what not to do.

 

[pamin002]

i think the optometrist is doing you a favor. Why pursue a school in which you'll be the guinea pig? I'm not saying those schools don't have potential, but it'll take some time to get there.

In the meantime, there are plenty of established opt. schools you can consider.

 

[raidersfan]

I have been told by my letter of rec writers that they have received notice from some of the schools that I applied....

 

[bigdumy]

There's a lot of bigotry in these posts. Therefore, I will join in.

First, I'm surprised this "long-term family eye doctor" would take a stance like this. It's up to you to choose a school to apply to. For him to be concerned because he thinks the education may be poorer or the quality of students lesser is understandable. However, as a long term friend, it is silly that he wouldn't write a letter because of this. I would express your disappointment to this optometrist. He shouldn't be in control of your choices.

Another optometrist said he wouldn't write a letter because a 24 year old lived at home? How unjustified can you get? Just tell the student that you don't want to write the letter. A guy with a high GPA, OATs and a great personality..... he would make a terrible optometrist!! The poster didn't even go to Berkeley. How shady is that?

In the end it is up to you. If you want to apply to the new schools then go ahead. Just be aware of what you are getting yourself into. You can let the optometrist control where you apply or you can explain that it is not his choice to make. A letter from a person who knows you will be better than a stranger. Good luck with this dilemma.

 

[KHE]

There's a lot of bigotry in these posts. Therefore, I will join in.

Another optometrist said he wouldn't write a letter because a 24 year old lived at home? How unjustified can you get? Just tell the student that you don't want to write the letter. A guy with a high GPA, OATs and a great personality..... he would make a terrible optometrist!! The poster didn't even go to Berkeley. How shady is that?

.

Since that's obviously directed at me, I'll clarify.

I declined to write the letter to Berkely not because he was living at home per se or because of anything to do with Berkeley. If Berkeley was near where he lived, I would have written the letter. I firmly believed that there was no way the guy would have been successful being that far away from home. As I said in the posting, the guy was by far and away the biggest mamma's boy in the world. I'm not putting my signature on a recommendation letter if I don't think the person is going to succeed. I felt strongly he would succeed at NEWENCO so I gladly wrote the letter. I'm sure he'll make a fine doctor but he would not have made it in California.

 

[DawgOD]

Arizona will become one of the better optometry schools..

I had an interview there, and it is a state of the art school. Dr. Santiago will have that school where it needs to be in no time.

I came away very impressed, and have visited/ interviewed at other schools, so I do know what other schools have to offer.

 

[optsuker]

Arizona will become one of the better optometry schools..
I had an interview there, and it is a state of the art school. Dr. Santiago will have that school where it needs to be in no time.
I came away very impressed, and have visited/ interviewed at other schools, so I do know what other schools have to offer.

Wondering what your qualifications are to make this call?
I see from previous posts, you were rejected by all schools last year (including Midwestern) & less than a 3.00 GPA. I'm hoping noone makes a decision based on this observation.

I hope those reading this thread realize what comments are coming from OD's & that the opposing opinions are from fellow undergrads. Although I seldom visit SDN, realize that Ken & the other OD's who post often are trying to help you make good decisions with limited information (we were in the same boat & would have loved having a forum like this).

So, please read with your BS filter turned up to high.

 

[DawgOD]

Wondering what your qualifications are to make this call?
I see from previous posts, you were rejected by all schools last year (including Midwestern) & less than a 3.00 GPA. I'm hoping noone makes a decision based on this observation.

I hope those reading this thread realize what comments are coming from OD's & that the opposing opinions are from fellow undergrads. Although I seldom visit SDN, realize that Ken & the other OD's who post often are trying to help you make good decisions with limited information (we were in the same boat & would have loved having a forum like this).

So, please read with your BS filter turned up to high.

This is my first time applying to Midwestern. Thank You very much!! I take offense to that especially since you did your "research" on my stats...

Just b/c you are an OD, your opinion is not any more higher than mine!! Respect that!!

 

[Commando303]

DO NOT EVER PUT ANYTHING ON THE INTERNET, OR IN AN EMAIL, OR IN A TEXT MESSAGE, OR IN A VOICEMAIL THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE WILLING TO PUT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NEW YORK TIMES.

That's just silly.

Since that's obviously directed at me, I'll clarify.

I declined to write the letter to Berkely not because he was living at home per se or because of anything to do with Berkeley. If Berkeley was near where he lived, I would have written the letter. I firmly believed that there was no way the guy would have been successful being that far away from home. As I said in the posting, the guy was by far and away the biggest mamma's boy in the world. I'm not putting my signature on a recommendation letter if I don't think the person is going to succeed. I felt strongly he would succeed at NEWENCO so I gladly wrote the letter. I'm sure he'll make a fine doctor but he would not have made it in California.

I do think writers of letters of recommendation have the right to take into account such things; if one feels an applicant would not be successful somewhere, one has the right to consider this when asked to recommend him or her -- a letter of this nature is a personal statement, not a simple "compliment" to help you get into school. That said, with OptomCAS, people really don't have much control over this sort of thing: they're writing a general rec. letter for a candidate for to apply to a generic O.D. program; there's no room to tailor the piece to indicate in which particular settings the applicant might be more or less likely to do well. So, in the age of the universal application, perhaps even asking where a student will apply, with the hope of evaluating his or her decision in writing an L.O.R., is futile.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

but I've declined to write letters for people who are applying to schools that I know they won't be successful at.

There is nothing wrong with this. This reminds me of what a science assistant principal did of mine in high school. I knew him for 3 years, we were more of "best friends" than student-teacher. When it came time to apply to college, he was basically there every step of the way, so i knew he would write me the best recommendation. It was because of him my college applications went from 20 to 8. He rejected to write me any letter for a school out of my state, because simply he knew that i would not go. He ended up writing one to me which was out of state, that i told him i would go if i got in. Well i got in, i didnt go, and he said "i told you so."

I feel that even though KHE might not have had a 3 year relationship with the student who shadowed him, he meant well and i think was correct on his decision. Also its an optometrists choice, and im sure KHE was more confident (and because of that gave a better rec) in writing to a school that he knew the student would go to and succeed in as opposed to writing one to a school where the student still may succeed in, but would definitely not attend.

 

[flairy]

First off, for all those stating that the newer schools will only take the bottom of the barrel students that is 100% not true. Why would a new school do that? No, they want to get the best students who will succeed in their program with little to no drop out. I applied and was waitlisted to UIWSO. I will admit I don't have fantastic grades but they are on the lower end of the accepted spectrum. If they were so desperate to get students, why would they not accepted me? (As a side note, I have already been accepted to SCO And PCO. I will be attending SCO come the fall.)

I believe all three of these schools have a good chance of being one of the top optometry schools. Just like all the established schools, they all had to start sometime. I understand why optometrist may look down on these new schools because it will bring in more optometrists each year, which equals more competition for your own practice. I personally think that the person should ask for the LOR and send it to where they would like to go. Yes I understand they are going behind the person's back but it is up to the applicant where they feel they want to go. If not go to another optometrist to write a LOR for you.

Thanks for your time!

 

[DawgOD]

flairy..

 

[iiii]

I think the new schools are prone to accept the "looks good on paper" candidates.

I've been corresponding with a 1st year at one of the new schools and she said there's a lot of her classmates that were non-science majors & who took the pre-req classes at a community college, so their GPA's were artificially high as compared to science majors at 4 year universities.

Looking at opted.org, they already had lower GPA ave than everyone but Puerto Rico. Figure that fact into it, and they're probably even lower.

 

[IndianaOD]

There are a lot of "know it all" pre optometry students on here. I feel you guys will get slapped in the butt once you hit the real world. Enjoy the corporate gigs guys and gals.

I would not write a LOR to one of the new schools either. Anyone who wants to attend one of these drains on optometry is not worthy of a LOR in my opinion.

If I asked a pre opt where he was applying and found out they lied to me I'd make sure I did as much to revoke the recommendation as possible. Optometry is a small world.

 

[bigdumy]

There are a lot of "know it all" pre optometry students on here. I feel you guys will get slapped in the butt once you hit the real world. Enjoy the corporate gigs guys and gals.

I would not write a LOR to one of the new schools either. Anyone who wants to attend one of these drains on optometry is not worthy of a LOR in my opinion.

If I asked a pre opt where he was applying and found out they lied to me I'd make sure I did as much to revoke the recommendation as possible. Optometry is a small world.

I'm guessing your social circle is too.

 

[IndianaOD]

Personally, I feel there are plenty of "know it all" optometrists on these forums that continue to post their opinions in the pre-optometry sections. I guess doctors in the optometric field don't have anything better to do than to discuss their opinions on a public forum with undergraduate students. I am hoping when I become an optometrist, I will have something better to do with my time...

When I have a question on SDN from now on, I think I will start directing them towards the level-headed pre-optometry/current optometry students.

So I'm guessing none of the pre-opts on here want advice from actual working ODs? (sarcasm for the dense) Just keep sipping the OD school kool-aide.

Let us know when you actually know what you are talking about. OD oversupply, especially with the new schools, will have further crippled this profession. Most of you already head to commercial spin and grin gigs after graduation anyways. Wally has a blue smock waiting for you!

 

[Arctic]

No, but we certainly don't want a bunch of propaganda from you, IndianaOD. Very little of what you say is backed up by more than an "I'm an OD, you're not." There is some truth to your inherent argument about saturation of the field, but I fail to see why you spend time on here touting your anti-corporate crusade. So what if people want cheap glasses??? So what if corporate optometrists 'only' make 80-90k per year, maybe a little bit more (that's a lot of money to me anyway)???

I've also gotten PM's from other people saying more or less the same thing.

 

[iiii]

I personally find the mix of pre-, current students, & docs is what makes SDN so valuable. It's the only site where we can see all stages of the profession.

I'm also not naive/arrogant enough to think an undergrad or current student can do much more than guess at the answer to a lot of the questions posted here. Job-seeking, insurance, etc. are all topics that only the OD's can really answer.

Just the fact that some of the OD's posting are so fervant about some topics is enough to make me step back & say, "Hey, there must be something to this if multiple docs feel this strongly about it."

An it does seem that they usually reserve their venom for the pre-opts overstating opinion as facts and those throwing immature insults around.

 

[Arctic]

And it does seem that they usually reserve their venom for the pre-opts overstating opinion as facts and those throwing immature insults around.

Yeah, um, no....

I think comments such as "Wally has a blue smock waiting for you!" are quite immature, to be honest. My opinion of SDNers in general has gradually gone down ever since I joined.


As for the part about ODs being the authority on topics such as insurance, job-seeking, I fully agree. But keep in mind that a lot of pre-optometry students (I hope almost all) actually discuss these very topics with our local ODs, so many of our opinions are in fact based off of PLENTY of OD opinions. So I wouldn't just dismiss something said by a pre-opt student, so long as he/she backs it up (as I try hard to do).

 

[peter22]

The funny thing is SDN has this type of fights and negativity on all of its occupational forums, not only OD forums. Check them out! Many of them are much worse! My premed friends always talk about how negative their forums are...
What does that say about all the negative posters? There are a lot of immature people on these forums that need to grow up, both pre-opts and OD's. There is some truth to all the comments on here, but I honestly feel a lot of the posters who are constantly negative would have the same negativity regardless of which occupation they chose. This can be seen by a lot of their hypocritical comments posted here that often do not all add up and make sense. There is always something negative about every occupation, but also a lot of positives. The hard workers will succeed while the whiners will always be whiners and make excuses for their failures.

Most optometrists that I talk to who actually love their job have never said anything too negative about optometry. All have said the same thing, work hard and you will succeed.
My opinion about the other new school are the same as most people, I believe they should not have opened because there was no need to. There is no shortage of OD's so what is their justification of opening the schools for? I think it is for one of two things: 1)Money or 2) To boost up their reputation because they now offer another doctorate degree program. Many dental schools closed down years back because of an oversupply of dentists... If there is already enough optometrists opening more schools is pointless imho.

BTW- My optometrist wrote me a letter under one condition- that I promise to avoid corporate optometry..lol

To the original poster, do not go behind anyone's back to sneak LORs. My optometrist received letter's from different schools thanking them for their LOR.

 

[IndianaOD]

The funny thing is SDN has this type of fights and negativity on all of its occupational forums, not only OD forums. Check them out! Many of them are much worse! My premed friends always talk about how negative their forums are...
What does that say about all the negative posters? There are a lot of immature people on these forums that need to grow up, both pre-opts and OD's. There is some truth to all the comments on here, but I honestly feel a lot of the posters who are constantly negative would have the same negativity regardless of which occupation they chose. This can be seen by a lot of their hypocritical comments posted here that often do not all add up and make sense. There is always something negative about every occupation, but also a lot of positives. The hard workers will succeed while the whiners will always be whiners and make excuses for their failures.

Most optometrists that I talk to who actually love their job have never said anything too negative about optometry. All have said the same thing, work hard and you will succeed.
My opinion about the other new school are the same as most people, I believe they should not have opened because there was no need to. There is no shortage of OD's so what is their justification of opening the schools for? I think it is for one of two things: 1)Money or 2) To boost up their reputation because they now offer another doctorate degree program. Many dental schools closed down years back because of an oversupply of dentists... If there is already enough optometrists opening more schools is pointless imho.

BTW- My optometrist wrote me a letter under one condition- that I promise to avoid corporate optometry..lol

To the original poster, do not go behind anyone's back to sneak LORs. My optometrist received letter's from different schools thanking them for their LOR.

Well said. I think that many of the pre-opts should be much more appreciative of the ODs who take the time to address SDN. I haven't posted on here in a few months but will post for a couple days here and there while my patients are dilating or whatever.

I know many of the ODs on here and overall we are a group of accomplished and successful ODs. Many of us are honestly unhappy with the direction the profession is heading. The oversupply is real guys. VSP did a survey of OD students a couple years ago. Over 90% of 1st and 2nd year OD students wanted to be a private practitioner. The fact is over 50% of new grads are now working in crappy commercial jobs.

Review of Optometry had an article that showed that OD incomes are actually flat and if inflation is calculated in we are actually decreasing, with MDs and dentists still increasing.

 

[Arctic]

Appreciative???????




Almost half of all optometrists I shadowed work in "crappy" as you put it, corporate jobs, and not one of them had regrets about going into optometry. Maybe if you would just stop spewing worthless propaganda statements, which reflect quite poorly on you, you'd do a better job of presenting your case. Seriously, saying things like "Wally has a blue smock waiting for you!" is not going to earn you any respect from me..........


Trying to go out of your way to offend people is NOT going to help your argument. If you'd instead focus on presenting a sensible case, such as the fact you bring up that OD salaries have been stagnating recently, and that at the moment it doesn't appear to make sense to you to open up more OD schools, then I'd be FAR more likely to listen and possibly be persuaded by you.

 

[IndianaOD]

Appreciative???????




Almost half of all optometrists I shadowed work in "crappy" as you put it, corporate jobs, and not one of them had regrets about going into optometry. Maybe if you would just stop spewing worthless propaganda statements, which reflect quite poorly on you, you'd do a better job of presenting your case. Seriously, saying things like "Wally has a blue smock waiting for you!" is not going to earn you any respect from me..........


Trying to go out of your way to offend people is NOT going to help your argument. If you'd instead focus on presenting a sensible case, such as the fact you bring up that OD salaries have been stagnating recently, and that at the moment it doesn't appear to make sense to you to open up more OD schools, then I'd be FAR more likely to listen and possibly be persuaded by you.

I'm giving you realities and honestly if you think a corporate gig is acceptable I prefer you choose another profession.

FYI, I'm not hunting for respect from Pre-Opts I'm just trying to give you guys a heads up that it might not be pretty when you get out.

Those commercial docs you are following....what do they charge for an exam? do they bill medical insurance at all? Do they diagnose and Tx glaucoma like a real OD or refer it out?

Go talk with the 12,000 ODs on odwire.org then tell me if I'm full of it.

 

[peter22]

SAM, the negativity I was referring to is the immaturity and constant bashing of optometry like it is the worse profession in the world. What I said was my opinion of the schools and the fact that commercial optometry does limit the scope of the practice (I believe most people can agree with that). I do not believe what I said is considered bad, immature negativity as it is my honest opinion and is backed up with evidence that is clear and concise to avoid further arguments. To be positive about everything in optometry would be lying and with that gets everyone no where. Constructive criticism on the other hand is what the forum should be more about, not immature bashing on each other and mindless exaggerated comments with no merit (I.e. trollers).
As I said before, through shadowing multiple optometrists the occupation seems to have a bright, happy future as long as you are willing to work. I chose optometry for a reason, I love the field and am extremely excited to start, but also like any other occupation, it does have some problems that need to be pointed out and hopefully addressed. To be fake positive 100% would be ignorant on my part and in the end make the occupation worse by letting problems slide out of control.
-Peter

 

[Commando303]

There are a lot of "know it all" pre optometry students on here. I feel you guys will get slapped in the butt once you hit the real world. Enjoy the corporate gigs guys and gals.

I would not write a LOR to one of the new schools either. Anyone who wants to attend one of these drains on optometry is not worthy of a LOR in my opinion.

If I asked a pre opt where he was applying and found out they lied to me I'd make sure I did as much to revoke the recommendation as possible. Optometry is a small world.

How petty. How could you even be sure the person didn't just change his mind or decide to add a safety-choice? And how, by the way, would you "revoke" your recommendation-letter? Would you try to figure out each school to which the person applied, call its admissions office, and explain you'd like to rescind your comments on behalf of a particular applicant?

As I said (I'm bored, so I'll say it again), O.D.s have the right to recommend or not recommend people as they please; this is a personal matter, not one covered under some "official policy." But, with OptomCAS, there's little way to tailor a letter to a particular school, so optometrists probably need to be a bit less focused on the specific aspirations of applicants.

OD oversupply, especially with the new schools, will have further crippled this profession. Most of you already head to commercial spin and grin gigs after graduation anyways. Wally has a blue smock waiting for you!

Your fight, then, is with capitalism, nothing else. This is the wrong forum (or at least the wrong thread) for that.

VSP did a survey of OD students a couple years ago. Over 90% of 1st and 2nd year OD students wanted to be a private practitioner. The fact is over 50% of new grads are now working in crappy commercial jobs.

Of course they are: opening a practice is expensive and uncertain. Getting out of college, students need to pay back ~$200,00 in loans; most need immediate, salaried jobs, not the tribulations of starting a business. I believe many applicants to O.D. programs aspire to one day run a private practice, but that most of of them are well aware that won't happen until a number of years after graduation. It's funny: you rail against capitalism, but complain eye doctors don't earn enough money...

 

[xmattODx]

I know many of the ODs on here and overall we are a group of accomplished and successful ODs.

You are accomplished and successful?

 

[IndianaOD]

You are accomplished and successful?

Oh, I think so.... for how long I've been in this rat race!

 

[KHE]

Of course they are: opening a practice is expensive and uncertain. Getting out of college, students need to pay back ~$200,00 in loans; most need immediate, salaried jobs, not the tribulations of starting a business. I believe many applicants to O.D. programs aspire to one day run a private practice, but that most of of them are well aware that won't happen until a number of years after graduation. It's funny: you rail against capitalism, but complain eye doctors don't earn enough money...

You're missing the point there.

Wouldn't it be nice to able to have that private practice much sooner, rather than having to scrounge around piecing together a work week at a bunch of commercial locations for years just to pay off that big student loan? A flood of new graduates is going to continue to depress the marketplace for optometric salaries making that dream of practice ownership harder and pushing it further into the future.

Owner doctors will continue to do well, and actually probably more so. As a practice owner, I'm looking forward to the glut of new docs flooding the market so I can hire an associate for $25 an hour instead of $35 an hour.

 

[Commando303]

You're missing the point there.

Wouldn't it be nice to able to have that private practice much sooner, rather than having to scrounge around piecing together a work week at a bunch of commercial locations for years just to pay off that big student loan? A flood of new graduates is going to continue to depress the marketplace for optometric salaries making that dream of practice ownership harder and pushing it further into the future.

Owner doctors will continue to do well, and actually probably more so. As a practice owner, I'm looking forward to the glut of new docs flooding the market so I can hire an associate for $25 an hour instead of $35 an hour.

No offense, I think you've missed my point. If one is unhappy with the commercialism of optometric services, or with lower starting salaries for O.D.s, one should look to the capitalist structure of the economy, not to the three new schools of eye medicine. I'm not eager to wage Communist or other propaganda, but I do feel people are pointing their fingers in the wrong direction. Cut the number of O.D.-granting institutions down to eight, and most recent graduates probably still will work for a Lenscrafters for a few years before opening their own offices. No, I don't have statistics to back myself up (I'm not in court or in a formal debate), but I don't think I've completely missed the gist of what some people are claiming.

 

[Triplopia]

I've asked my long-time optometrist (and one of his partners) to write my LOR for my opt school application.

They both told me they won't write a letter for anyone applying to Western, Midwestestern, or Incarnate Word. They feel strongly that the new schools weren't necessary and will be substandard programs for the first 5-10 years.

I don't plan on going to any of these schools, but would consider it as a fall-back option if I couldn't get in anywhere else.

Do I commit to not applying to them, or look for another LOR from someone who doesn't know me?

Reading the SDN forum, it seems like nobody likes the new schools, I wonder why the optometrists in this forum didnt take it to the association, I heard from my opt that there is huge lobbying for everything happening in OPT world, so if you guys think it was such a bad idea, then you should have raised your voice,I think once the decision is made, it is rude to hate them, because students in those schools ( I am thinking the new school already started) will suffer, the money they are spending. just think about it..

 

[KHE]

No offense, I think you've missed my point. If one is unhappy with the commercialism of optometric services, or with lower starting salaries for O.D.s, one should look to the capitalist structure of the economy, not to the three new schools of eye medicine. I'm not eager to wage Communist or other propaganda, but I do feel people are pointing their fingers in the wrong direction. Cut the number of O.D.-granting institutions down to eight, and most recent graduates probably still will work for a Lenscrafters for a few years before opening their own offices. No, I don't have statistics to back myself up (I'm not in court or in a formal debate), but I don't think I've completely missed the gist of what some people are claiming.

No, I get the capitalist argument you're making. More supply of providers with the same demand generally means a lowering of prices and a corresponding lowering of salaries. As a practice owner, I'm fine with it because like I said, I can hire associates for much less money. Yay for me!

But that IS the issue because it affects the long term health and viability of the profession as a whole. What the schools (particularly the new ones) don't seem to realize is that optometric income for employees is stagnant and when adjusted for inflation is actually DOWN. The AOAs own numbers back this up.

A quick anecdote.....When I was first in school (1996) there were 4th year students and new graduates hanging around the school who were complaining that the job offers they were able to obtain in various parts of the country were for salaries that were consistent with what graduates were getting 5-6 years ago which was $350 per day.

Fast foward to when I graduated and finished my residency. The salary consistently offered was.....$350 per day.

Here in 2010, most offices in my area pay around.....$350 per day.

Do you think the cost of an optometric education has gone up in the last 20 years or stayed the same? Do you think the cost of a house, car, health insurance, office overhead has gone up in the last 20 years or stayed the same?

As this trend continues and almost certainly worsens, it will create a vicious cycle of students and new graduates competing for fewer and fewer jobs for lower and lower salaries.

So yes, you're right. It IS capitalism.

My concern is not that MY salary will go down. It's almost surely not going to. My concern is that all of YOUR salaries are going to go down and it will lead to less young graduates in practice ownership roles which will lead to more people working in commercial situations with increases the power of the commercial entities which will ultimately reduce the power of the optometric profession.

And the thing is.... as a profession, WE CAN CONTROL THIS. Yet we don't.

 

[KHE]

Reading the SDN forum, it seems like nobody likes the new schools, I wonder why the optometrists in this forum didnt take it to the association, I heard from my opt that there is huge lobbying for everything happening in OPT world, so if you guys think it was such a bad idea, then you should have raised your voice,I think once the decision is made, it is rude to hate them, because students in those schools ( I am thinking the new school already started) will suffer, the money they are spending. just think about it..

Oh trust me, we did. The state and national associations claim that it would be an anti-trust violation to even DISCUSS it, much less do anything about it. As such, they purposly do NOTHING about it.