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Thank you for sharing your experience, Ed. Congratulations on getting in!
Non-Trad "Secrets" of Application Success
- Thread starter QofQuimica
- Start date
As I read this, I couldn't help but remembering our discussion back in October (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=768845&highlight=schools+applied+to):
I did remember a few comments about DO's you made in general, which I remember responding to. So I was a bit surprised to see you go Osteopath. Anywho, glad you got in and good luck.
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You went to a lot of effort to say "I told you so." I would have confessed without the proof. But if you want me to say it, I will try. You were right and I was wr..., I was wrooo.... I was not exactly entirely correct.
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Meh, I've seen it happen plenty of times before.
Anyhoo, good luck to those accepted this year!
Lol. Well, I only did because I thought we had the discussion, but wasn't sure. When I found the old thread, I figured, why not post it.
I wasn't "right" though. I was fortunate to receive good advice from SDN'ers and my cycle turned out great. But so did yours. The goal is to become a physician and we both completed the first big step.
The point I tried to make in my earlier post was that I'm very lucky I listened to others, because now out of my 7 interviews and ~handful of acceptances, only 2 of those schools were on my shorter list, and unfortunately, those are the ones I lack acceptances from! So I'm very lucky I followed the motto, "apply early and broadly." This process is super random and I got denied from lower ranked schools that I thought I'd have better chances at, and a few random interviews/acceptances from top 25's that I wouldn't have applied to normally.
Great interview because of chemistry with person = random
Adcom loves essay = random
Adcom hates essay = random
student interview, don't click = random
All these little things play big in admissions and anything can happen. For future applicants, I think my only take away from all this is, have a healthy amount of fear about this process. There are a lot of great applicants and you need every edge. I certainly never thought I'd be guaranteed acceptance anywhere.
Anyway, I think you will be a great doc. Good luck bro.
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This gets to the heart of the issue. All of the interview skills in the world won't get the student in. Getting the interview is usually a matter of numbers. After that point, everything is subjective, and, in fact, random. In one of my out-of-state interviews the adcom asked about our state's senator, who is also a doctor and has been getting some publicity. The adcom liked him. I happened to know the senator and was able to tell some anecdotes about him and his wife. I ended up on the wait-list because the other adcom thought I needed some more clinical experience. If necessary I could have done a little bit more shadowing and gotten into the school - because I understand that my interview was very positive, otherwise.
Here was a really positive interview outcome from a random fact - I am well-acquainted with political figures in my state.
However, I'm have a pretty good suspicion that this same fact worked against me in my state school interview. The FORMER senator from my state is the president of the university and is of the opposite party. My resume is full of my political experience. I walked into the most hostile interview environment that I have ever read or heard about and got an unexpected denial and even a refusal to discuss what went wrong.
The reason to apply widely is because there are no "safe" schools. Murphy is alive and well.
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Applied: 7
Interviews: 6
Interviews attended: 3
(I had to cancel 3 because they were scheduled about 2 weeks before my dissertation defense. At the moment that was my priority.)
Acceptances: 3
GPA: Hard to say. I've been in school for the past 10 years of my life. Undergrad was alright (below 3.5, above 3.0). Grad was much better (3.9). For AMCAS I was okay at best since my undergrad GPA had a heavier weight in the calculation. For ACOMAS I looked much better.
MCAT: I took a Kaplan course. I'm really glad that I did or I would have done worse but even then I should have studied more. I ended up with a high 20's score and wasn't quite sure what to do about it. This was all done in the final year of my PhD so I was stressed to get done and I opted not to take it again. I probably should have. Over all it worked out well for me though since I ended up in the school I wanted.
Essays: Same as a lot of stories on here, my initial PS was crap and I had to revise it several times. In the end it was good but I still felt like I could have paid more attention to it. Do not ignore this one. This is the Adcoms window to who you are (i.e proof that you are not just a good applicant, like everybody else) Non-trads have a great opportunity to excel here. Maturity is important when becoming a physician.
LORs: Again a place were non-trads can really make bank. Being in research for so long I was able to get ample LOR's from prestigious faculty at my University. I also volunteered my time to help on a few cases that were presented at conferences through the tox program at the University. I also attended their rounds on a weekly basis since I really wanted to see how chemistry could be integrated with clinical medicine. This lasted for a year and a half. I also received LORs from the Chiefs of two EM departments. (The tox group was bridged between a few different hospitals.) I think that my continued interest in merging my PhD knowledge base with clinical medicine showed my desire to utilize all of my background.
ECs: Between volunteering my knowledge base to help out on cases, fund raising for cancer research, multiple poster presentation at conferences and 7 publications I covered my basis. I'm not sure that I have to much to suggest to others in this area. My experience is fairly specific to the academic environment that I was in. The hardest part was trying to tell everyone why I wanted to go into medicine instead of continuing down the research track. Honestly I want to do both. I guess I'll wait and see. If you are the unfortunate PhD --> MD/DO I guess I would suggest that you take your time to figure out a thoughtful explanation for why you want to do this and stick to it. Then prove that you mean in your spare time with your volunteer activities.
Interviews: Being subjected to having to give multiple presentations really helped. (from grad school) I really felt comfy at my interviews and didn't have any real problems. One of my interviewers actually knew one of my old bosses (he was a basic science researcher). We ended up talking about that for about 10 minutes. All of them wanted me to talk about a fault or two and trust me I am not perfect so this was no problem. But I've also spent a lot of time thinking about my own pitfalls and how I might change them and make them better. Having the maturity to talk about those things was very helpful. Over all I had a pretty good time during my interviews. They seemed to like me to since I was accepted to all the places that I interviewed at.
Overall advice: Don't ignore the MCAT, PS or GPA repair. If you are a PhD thinking about becoming a physician know that you will NOT get special treatment for having the advanced degree. It actually makes your application more complicated since you have to continually explain why you had a change of heart. Oh, and try to take the MCAT before you start writing your dissertation and have to wrap up the many projects you had as a graduate student. This test deserves your time and attention. Try to schedule all of your interviews before or after your dissertation as well. Having to think about medical school acceptances and whether your smart enough to graduate with your PhD is stress I do not wish on anyone.
Sorry if this is a bit specific to PHD --> MD/DO but that was the path that I ended up taking. It seems that most of the other areas of a non trads app are covered in other posts here. I hope this helps.
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Applied: 30 (Thank God for the fee waiver)
Interviews: 6
Interviews attended: 3
Acceptances: 3 (Updated 3/16/2011)
AGE: I'm currently 34, and I'll be 34 when I matriculate this year. I was 30 when I left the military in 2007 and started on my post-bacc.
GPA: When I graduated with my first bachelor's degree in 2000, my GPA was below 3.0. My degree was liberal arts, but I had still taken a few science classes and done poorly. There's no getting around the fact that I wasn't a good student during my first few years of undergrad. I knew that if I was going to be successful in applying to medical school, that I would have to show admissions committees that I could handle the academic workload required in medical school. Hence, I decided to start from scratch in the summer of 2007 and complete a second bachelor's degree in Molecular Biology. As a full-time student - I took almost all science and math courses, and in those science courses I earned all A's - except for a B in Biochem (stupid Biochem). I ended up with a 3.87 post-bacc GPA and a 3.97 post-bacc sGPA, with 114 semester hours and 90 semester hours, respectively. My overall AMCAS GPAs were 3.33 overall and 3.29 science.
MCAT: I used ExamKrackers and Berkley Review, and I took every AAMC computer test under timed conditions. I wish I had started using the Berkley books sooner, because I really felt that they helped me understand the concepts better. I was getting ready for a military deployment during the time that I was studying for the test, so I had more interference in my studying than I would have liked, but who doesn't have interference of some kind? My actual exam score (31Q: 12BS, 10PS, 9V) was right around my AAMC average, so I can't really complain too much. If I hadn't gotten accepted this year I would have studied over this upcoming summer and taken the test again in August. Thank God I won't have to do that now, because I'm looking forward to spending that time with my fiance before school starts. Anyway, it's been said again and again on these boards, but the key for me was taking AAMC tests under timed conditions.
ESSAYS: I think the biggest thing with the essays and personal statements are making your story interesting to the reader. I can tell you that I did horribly on essays that asked why I wanted to go to school X. The application, and essays, that I felt I did well on included prompts that tried to get to know me better as a person. Essays describing ethical dilemmas, interests, etc. were the ones that I felt good about, and I'm pretty sure all of the schools that I received interviews at included essays like this in their secondary applications. Duke's application was a beast, as they say, but it gave me the opportunity to show them who I really am. Use that to your advantage.
LORs: I was fortunate to have a couple of professors for multiple courses and a job in the military where I could get a decent LOR from a Battalion Surgeon who knew what I'd done as a medic. I also had a pre-health committee at my school that wrote me a committee letter. A former military team leader also wrote a LOR for me. I'm not sure what advice can be given with regards to LOR's, but if you have a professor that you like try taking multiple courses with that professor. That way, he can write about your academic performance over a longer period of time.
ECs: I had plenty of clinical experience with about 8 years in the military at the time of my application, including both Active Duty and National Guard time as a medic. However, when I started back to school I also became an ER tech in a Level I Trauma Center. I worked about 30 hours per week there for the first two years of my post-bacc, in addition to my duties with the National Guard. My scope of practice was a little more limited as an ER Tech than it has been in the military as a medic, but I saw a side of civilian medicine that I wasn't able to see in the military. I was also able to witness first-hand how the ER is misused by those who choose to use it as their primary care provider. I think this is the most overlooked aspect of working in a hospital. While on Active Duty I deployed to Iraq, and I'm currently on a deployment with the National Guard. I hadn't even thought of going to medical school prior to joining the military, and some would consider my job to be pretty unique, so I owe everything to the experiences that I've had as a soldier. I've done a little bit of volunteering as an advisor to a campus organization, but other than that I didn't have a lot of volunteer work this time around. There just wasn't that much time for it. I did volunteer quite a bit during my first undergraduate degree. Maybe between that and my military service I've been philanthropic enough. I have absolutely no research experience, but I'm looking forward to getting some in the future.
INTERVIEWS: Being overseas has definitely complicated things in the interview department. Upon submission of each secondary that I completed, I informed the admissions offices of each school that I would be away on a deployment for pretty much the entire cycle. I'm certain that being upfront about that has helped my cause. I have done two phone interviews and one Skype interview thus far, although I'm fairly certain that I'm done interviewing for the cycle. I declined a few other interviews for good reasons. I'd definitely prefer to interview in person, but beggers can't be choosers. I'm humbled that anyone even thought enough of me as an applicant to give me the chance to interview. Anyone can see that my stats themselves aren't overly impressive, so I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had. I enjoyed the Skype interview, and I would prefer it to a phone interview - just because you're able to see the expressions and body language of the interviewer.
OVERALL ADVICE: Don't worry about what your chances are or what everybody else is doing with regards to their stats. I know that numbers and stats are important in this process, but don't rely too heavily on those as indicators of what you're capable of. Personally, I can't stand the what are my chances threads. My stats are certainly nothing to be in awe of, and I think that's the case for a lot of nontrads. I was surprised about some of the out-of-state interviews that I received, but I was even more surprised about some of the rejections that I got from schools that my numbers fit more closely with. Who knows who's reading your application? Maybe that person has been through an experience similar to yours - or just finds your story appealing. Do your best, and in your essays make yourself become somebody that admissions committees want to meet.
Good luck to everyone, and please let me know if I can be of any help to you. It can be a long road, but I'm definitely happy about how things turned out. Plus, I met my fiancee during my post-bacc. WIN WIN..
Interviews: 6
Interviews attended: 3
Acceptances: 3 (Updated 3/16/2011)
AGE: I'm currently 34, and I'll be 34 when I matriculate this year. I was 30 when I left the military in 2007 and started on my post-bacc.
GPA: When I graduated with my first bachelor's degree in 2000, my GPA was below 3.0. My degree was liberal arts, but I had still taken a few science classes and done poorly. There's no getting around the fact that I wasn't a good student during my first few years of undergrad. I knew that if I was going to be successful in applying to medical school, that I would have to show admissions committees that I could handle the academic workload required in medical school. Hence, I decided to start from scratch in the summer of 2007 and complete a second bachelor's degree in Molecular Biology. As a full-time student - I took almost all science and math courses, and in those science courses I earned all A's - except for a B in Biochem (stupid Biochem).
I ended up with a 3.87 post-bacc GPA and a 3.97 post-bacc sGPA, with 114 semester hours and 90 semester hours, respectively. My overall AMCAS GPAs were 3.33 overall and 3.29 science. MCAT: I used ExamKrackers and Berkley Review, and I took every AAMC computer test under timed conditions. I wish I had started using the Berkley books sooner, because I really felt that they helped me understand the concepts better. I was getting ready for a military deployment during the time that I was studying for the test, so I had more interference in my studying than I would have liked, but who doesn't have interference of some kind? My actual exam score (31Q: 12BS, 10PS, 9V) was right around my AAMC average, so I can't really complain too much. If I hadn't gotten accepted this year I would have studied over this upcoming summer and taken the test again in August. Thank God I won't have to do that now, because I'm looking forward to spending that time with my fiance before school starts. Anyway, it's been said again and again on these boards, but the key for me was taking AAMC tests under timed conditions.
ESSAYS: I think the biggest thing with the essays and personal statements are making your story interesting to the reader. I can tell you that I did horribly on essays that asked why I wanted to go to school X. The application, and essays, that I felt I did well on included prompts that tried to get to know me better as a person. Essays describing ethical dilemmas, interests, etc. were the ones that I felt good about, and I'm pretty sure all of the schools that I received interviews at included essays like this in their secondary applications. Duke's application was a beast, as they say, but it gave me the opportunity to show them who I really am. Use that to your advantage.
LORs: I was fortunate to have a couple of professors for multiple courses and a job in the military where I could get a decent LOR from a Battalion Surgeon who knew what I'd done as a medic. I also had a pre-health committee at my school that wrote me a committee letter. A former military team leader also wrote a LOR for me. I'm not sure what advice can be given with regards to LOR's, but if you have a professor that you like try taking multiple courses with that professor. That way, he can write about your academic performance over a longer period of time.
ECs: I had plenty of clinical experience with about 8 years in the military at the time of my application, including both Active Duty and National Guard time as a medic. However, when I started back to school I also became an ER tech in a Level I Trauma Center. I worked about 30 hours per week there for the first two years of my post-bacc, in addition to my duties with the National Guard. My scope of practice was a little more limited as an ER Tech than it has been in the military as a medic, but I saw a side of civilian medicine that I wasn't able to see in the military. I was also able to witness first-hand how the ER is misused by those who choose to use it as their primary care provider. I think this is the most overlooked aspect of working in a hospital. While on Active Duty I deployed to Iraq, and I'm currently on a deployment with the National Guard. I hadn't even thought of going to medical school prior to joining the military, and some would consider my job to be pretty unique, so I owe everything to the experiences that I've had as a soldier. I've done a little bit of volunteering as an advisor to a campus organization, but other than that I didn't have a lot of volunteer work this time around. There just wasn't that much time for it. I did volunteer quite a bit during my first undergraduate degree. Maybe between that and my military service I've been philanthropic enough. I have absolutely no research experience, but I'm looking forward to getting some in the future.
INTERVIEWS: Being overseas has definitely complicated things in the interview department. Upon submission of each secondary that I completed, I informed the admissions offices of each school that I would be away on a deployment for pretty much the entire cycle. I'm certain that being upfront about that has helped my cause. I have done two phone interviews and one Skype interview thus far, although I'm fairly certain that I'm done interviewing for the cycle. I declined a few other interviews for good reasons. I'd definitely prefer to interview in person, but beggers can't be choosers. I'm humbled that anyone even thought enough of me as an applicant to give me the chance to interview. Anyone can see that my stats themselves aren't overly impressive, so I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had. I enjoyed the Skype interview, and I would prefer it to a phone interview - just because you're able to see the expressions and body language of the interviewer.
OVERALL ADVICE: Don't worry about what your chances are or what everybody else is doing with regards to their stats. I know that numbers and stats are important in this process, but don't rely too heavily on those as indicators of what you're capable of. Personally, I can't stand the what are my chances threads. My stats are certainly nothing to be in awe of, and I think that's the case for a lot of nontrads. I was surprised about some of the out-of-state interviews that I received, but I was even more surprised about some of the rejections that I got from schools that my numbers fit more closely with. Who knows who's reading your application? Maybe that person has been through an experience similar to yours - or just finds your story appealing. Do your best, and in your essays make yourself become somebody that admissions committees want to meet.
Good luck to everyone, and please let me know if I can be of any help to you. It can be a long road, but I'm definitely happy about how things turned out. Plus, I met my fiancee during my post-bacc. WIN WIN..
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I'm now 31, married with a 2 year-old son, and pursuing a plastic surgery residency!
I'm from a family of surgeons - on my residency interviews I joked that the question asked of me at 5 years old was not "what do you want to do when you grow up?" but rather "what kind of doctor do you want to be?" or even "what kind of surgeon do you want to be?"
I loved math & science but also had talent for arts & the humanities, going so far as to audition for music conservatories at 16 and gain acceptances to top places for cello performance.
In the end, I went to a great college but at a very young age, and halfway through I questioned whether I was premed for me or for some kind of family fulfillment or legacy thing. During this time I interned for a general practice attorney in New Jersey, loved it, and thought that law school would be a great fit for me to apply my interests and talent in analysis and writing to help folks with their social issues.
So at 20 I matriculate to law school in NYC, single and excited at the chance to become a bigshot attorney as seen on all the TV courtroom dramas. I interned in a variety of practices, ranging from personal injury to landlord tenant to the DA's office.
In September 2001, though, I was working Mondays and Fridays for a boutique entertainment law firm whose penthouse suite overlooked Downtown Manhattan. As you may or may not recall, 9/11 occurred on a Tuesday. I witnessed the devastation across the East River from the Brooklyn Promenade, and eventually, after our offices moved uptown to Union Square and back downtown again to Park Place, I would take my breaks on the rooftop near our office suite and stare at what used to be a striking part of the New York skyline, now utter ruin.
It was during those breaks that I thought "what if?" regarding my choice of not going to medical school. I started communicating with my college premed office and was greeted with laughter over the phone after I mentioned my lackluster college transcript. The advisor suggested I consider dental school, osteopathic school, or the Carribbean, but I insisted on pursuing an allopathic MD at an American school.
So while in law school I start taking graduate biochemistry classes, and by the time I sat for the NY Bar at 23, I was all set to matriculate into a Biology Master's program. I do very well, mostly A's, sit for the MCAT a 2nd time and do well but not great. I end up with 2 interviews and ultimately waitlisted at my top pick.
My best friend, himself an OMFS resident at a top program, then suggested I work at his old lab on Long Island. I take up his suggestion, his PI hires me within 5 minutes of meeting, and I spend 2 years doing benchwork. I take the MCAT a 3rd time, up my score by 9 points, and get many more interviews on reapplying, getting 3 acceptances and choosing to attend medical school in Western NY.
Since coming up here with my wife, I've done well, worked hard, and while not the most stellar student to come through here, I've created a good enough profile to generate interviews at plastic surgery programs and many top general surgery programs. I've matched, and where I go remains to be seen tomorrow at 12 noon.
So folks, keep you chin up but your nose to the grindstone. Learn from failures and setbacks, and whatever you do, remember that the fruits of your labor may come useful years down the line, as my benchwork and law degree did for me as a residency applicant. Listen to constructive criticism but don't get overly dejected from the naysayers.
And remember that you can't do it alone - mentors are key, whether they are friends, family, or employers. Someone going to bat for you, be it an e-mailed introduction to someone, making a phonecall to a program director, etc., makes the difference between getting what you want and struggling.
I'm from a family of surgeons - on my residency interviews I joked that the question asked of me at 5 years old was not "what do you want to do when you grow up?" but rather "what kind of doctor do you want to be?" or even "what kind of surgeon do you want to be?"
I loved math & science but also had talent for arts & the humanities, going so far as to audition for music conservatories at 16 and gain acceptances to top places for cello performance.
In the end, I went to a great college but at a very young age, and halfway through I questioned whether I was premed for me or for some kind of family fulfillment or legacy thing. During this time I interned for a general practice attorney in New Jersey, loved it, and thought that law school would be a great fit for me to apply my interests and talent in analysis and writing to help folks with their social issues.
So at 20 I matriculate to law school in NYC, single and excited at the chance to become a bigshot attorney as seen on all the TV courtroom dramas. I interned in a variety of practices, ranging from personal injury to landlord tenant to the DA's office.
In September 2001, though, I was working Mondays and Fridays for a boutique entertainment law firm whose penthouse suite overlooked Downtown Manhattan. As you may or may not recall, 9/11 occurred on a Tuesday. I witnessed the devastation across the East River from the Brooklyn Promenade, and eventually, after our offices moved uptown to Union Square and back downtown again to Park Place, I would take my breaks on the rooftop near our office suite and stare at what used to be a striking part of the New York skyline, now utter ruin.
It was during those breaks that I thought "what if?" regarding my choice of not going to medical school. I started communicating with my college premed office and was greeted with laughter over the phone after I mentioned my lackluster college transcript. The advisor suggested I consider dental school, osteopathic school, or the Carribbean, but I insisted on pursuing an allopathic MD at an American school.
So while in law school I start taking graduate biochemistry classes, and by the time I sat for the NY Bar at 23, I was all set to matriculate into a Biology Master's program. I do very well, mostly A's, sit for the MCAT a 2nd time and do well but not great. I end up with 2 interviews and ultimately waitlisted at my top pick.
My best friend, himself an OMFS resident at a top program, then suggested I work at his old lab on Long Island. I take up his suggestion, his PI hires me within 5 minutes of meeting, and I spend 2 years doing benchwork. I take the MCAT a 3rd time, up my score by 9 points, and get many more interviews on reapplying, getting 3 acceptances and choosing to attend medical school in Western NY.
Since coming up here with my wife, I've done well, worked hard, and while not the most stellar student to come through here, I've created a good enough profile to generate interviews at plastic surgery programs and many top general surgery programs. I've matched, and where I go remains to be seen tomorrow at 12 noon.
So folks, keep you chin up but your nose to the grindstone. Learn from failures and setbacks, and whatever you do, remember that the fruits of your labor may come useful years down the line, as my benchwork and law degree did for me as a residency applicant. Listen to constructive criticism but don't get overly dejected from the naysayers.
And remember that you can't do it alone - mentors are key, whether they are friends, family, or employers. Someone going to bat for you, be it an e-mailed introduction to someone, making a phonecall to a program director, etc., makes the difference between getting what you want and struggling.
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I thought as I might as well share. I did electrical & biomedical engineering (4 years) for my undergrad. My science GPA was <3.0. Coming from Canada, that doesn't help too much either. I had 0 medical volunteering experience and 2 days of shadowing a cardiologist. So what made me stand out? I have 3 published papers and a 1 provisional patent. Due to this, my LORs were excellent (not from any science profs). Don't listen to those admission ppl who say that you must get an LOR from science. Get it from a prof you did research under and who will write you a GOOD letter. No point going to a science prof, whose course you did average, you will get an average LOR.
I studied for the MCAT 2 months after I graduated in June. I studied for 2 months, no course, straight-up Kaplan books and practice tests. There was a lot of new **** that I had to learn since I never learned it in undergrad, but oh well. I got an average score, not bad, not good. I only took it once as I didn't want to waste any time. After this, I collected my LORs and yes, I HIGHLY recommend using Interfolio. I actually still have my LORs in Interfolio. I submitted all my applications somewhat late, but I got interviews in late November. I did have some trouble with prerequisites since I wasn't exactly from a pure science program, but certain schools made an exception. I KILLED my interview. I got accepted to US DO schools and Caribbean MD schools. I chose the latter, going to SGU.
Oh, and while I was doing all of this, I did apply to grad school as my back-up and I DID get accepted. I could've gone, wasted another year and re-applied, but again, as I said, I didn't want to waste any time. So I just took the caribbean route and I have no regrets.
So what's the moral of the story? Get AMAZING LORs and KILL your interview. Make sure you emphasize on your strengths. Don't be picky, apply to your top schools, but go where you can. In the end, everyone takes the same board exams.
I studied for the MCAT 2 months after I graduated in June. I studied for 2 months, no course, straight-up Kaplan books and practice tests. There was a lot of new **** that I had to learn since I never learned it in undergrad, but oh well. I got an average score, not bad, not good. I only took it once as I didn't want to waste any time. After this, I collected my LORs and yes, I HIGHLY recommend using Interfolio. I actually still have my LORs in Interfolio. I submitted all my applications somewhat late, but I got interviews in late November. I did have some trouble with prerequisites since I wasn't exactly from a pure science program, but certain schools made an exception. I KILLED my interview. I got accepted to US DO schools and Caribbean MD schools. I chose the latter, going to SGU.
Oh, and while I was doing all of this, I did apply to grad school as my back-up and I DID get accepted. I could've gone, wasted another year and re-applied, but again, as I said, I didn't want to waste any time. So I just took the caribbean route and I have no regrets.
So what's the moral of the story? Get AMAZING LORs and KILL your interview. Make sure you emphasize on your strengths. Don't be picky, apply to your top schools, but go where you can. In the end, everyone takes the same board exams.
Applied: 30 (Thank God for the fee waiver)
Interviews: 6
Interviews attended: 3
Acceptances: 3 (Updated 3/16/2011)
AGE: I'm currently 34, and I'll be 34 when I matriculate this year. I was 30 when I left the military in 2007 and started on my post-bacc.
GPA: When I graduated with my first bachelor's degree in 2000, my GPA was below 3.0. My degree was liberal arts, but I had still taken a few science classes and done poorly. There's no getting around the fact that I wasn't a good student during my first few years of undergrad. I knew that if I was going to be successful in applying to medical school, that I would have to show admissions committees that I could handle the academic workload required in medical school. Hence, I decided to start from scratch in the summer of 2007 and complete a second bachelor's degree in Molecular Biology. As a full-time student - I took almost all science and math courses, and in those science courses I earned all A's - except for a B in Biochem (stupid Biochem).
MCAT: I used ExamKrackers and Berkley Review, and I took every AAMC computer test under timed conditions. I wish I had started using the Berkley books sooner, because I really felt that they helped me understand the concepts better. I was getting ready for a military deployment during the time that I was studying for the test, so I had more interference in my studying than I would have liked, but who doesn't have interference of some kind? My actual exam score (31Q: 12BS, 10PS, 9V) was right around my AAMC average, so I can't really complain too much. If I hadn't gotten accepted this year I would have studied over this upcoming summer and taken the test again in August. Thank God I won't have to do that now, because I'm looking forward to spending that time with my fiance before school starts. Anyway, it's been said again and again on these boards, but the key for me was taking AAMC tests under timed conditions.
ESSAYS: I think the biggest thing with the essays and personal statements are making your story interesting to the reader. I can tell you that I did horribly on essays that asked why I wanted to go to school X. The application, and essays, that I felt I did well on included prompts that tried to get to know me better as a person. Essays describing ethical dilemmas, interests, etc. were the ones that I felt good about, and I'm pretty sure all of the schools that I received interviews at included essays like this in their secondary applications. Duke's application was a beast, as they say, but it gave me the opportunity to show them who I really am. Use that to your advantage.
LORs: I was fortunate to have a couple of professors for multiple courses and a job in the military where I could get a decent LOR from a Battalion Surgeon who knew what I'd done as a medic. I also had a pre-health committee at my school that wrote me a committee letter. A former military team leader also wrote a LOR for me. I'm not sure what advice can be given with regards to LOR's, but if you have a professor that you like try taking multiple courses with that professor. That way, he can write about your academic performance over a longer period of time.
ECs: I had plenty of clinical experience with about 8 years in the military at the time of my application, including both Active Duty and National Guard time as a medic. However, when I started back to school I also became an ER tech in a Level I Trauma Center. I worked about 30 hours per week there for the first two years of my post-bacc, in addition to my duties with the National Guard. My scope of practice was a little more limited as an ER Tech than it has been in the military as a medic, but I saw a side of civilian medicine that I wasn't able to see in the military. I was also able to witness first-hand how the ER is misused by those who choose to use it as their primary care provider. I think this is the most overlooked aspect of working in a hospital. While on Active Duty I deployed to Iraq, and I'm currently on a deployment with the National Guard. I hadn't even thought of going to medical school prior to joining the military, and some would consider my job to be pretty unique, so I owe everything to the experiences that I've had as a soldier. I've done a little bit of volunteering as an advisor to a campus organization, but other than that I didn't have a lot of volunteer work this time around. There just wasn't that much time for it. I did volunteer quite a bit during my first undergraduate degree. Maybe between that and my military service I've been philanthropic enough. I have absolutely no research experience, but I'm looking forward to getting some in the future.
INTERVIEWS: Being overseas has definitely complicated things in the interview department. Upon submission of each secondary that I completed, I informed the admissions offices of each school that I would be away on a deployment for pretty much the entire cycle. I'm certain that being upfront about that has helped my cause. I have done two phone interviews and one Skype interview thus far, although I'm fairly certain that I'm done interviewing for the cycle. I declined a few other interviews for good reasons. I'd definitely prefer to interview in person, but beggers can't be choosers. I'm humbled that anyone even thought enough of me as an applicant to give me the chance to interview. Anyone can see that my stats themselves aren't overly impressive, so I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had. I enjoyed the Skype interview, and I would prefer it to a phone interview - just because you're able to see the expressions and body language of the interviewer.
OVERALL ADVICE: Don't worry about what your chances are or what everybody else is doing with regards to their stats. I know that numbers and stats are important in this process, but don't rely too heavily on those as indicators of what you're capable of. Personally, I can't stand the what are my chances threads. My stats are certainly nothing to be in awe of, and I think that's the case for a lot of nontrads. I was surprised about some of the out-of-state interviews that I received, but I was even more surprised about some of the rejections that I got from schools that my numbers fit more closely with. Who knows who's reading your application? Maybe that person has been through an experience similar to yours - or just finds your story appealing. Do your best, and in your essays make yourself become somebody that admissions committees want to meet.
Good luck to everyone, and please let me know if I can be of any help to you. It can be a long road, but I'm definitely happy about how things turned out. Plus, I met my fiancee during my post-bacc. WIN WIN..
Good job bro, another win for the non-trads!
I was accepted this cycle so I thought I´d put in my .02 in case it helps anyone:
GPA: My gpa wasn´t too bad, but it is still under average to every school I applied to (between 3.3-3.4) so this was certainly something I worried about constantly, especially reading people´s experiences on SDN...I did have an upward trend however and when I completed my pre-reqs (at the University part-time) I made sure to get all A´s. I think this helped show that when I put my mind to it, I could nail my courses.
MCAT: This is killer for everyone who has to make up a little for their GPA. There are plenty of study tips on here so I won´t elaborate.
LOR´s: This is also something that worried me, as I only really knew one professor from undergrad who I was sure could write me a LOR. However, when I took my pre-reqs, I made a point to go to office hours (even if I didn´t really need to) just to get to know the professor. It paid off bigtime! If you have a chance to take classes again, don´t miss the opportunity to network as much as possible! I also had a LOR from a former boss (from my career after college) and I asked many schools if I could use it as a non-science LOR and they all said if I was at least 2 years out of school that I could substitute it.
EC´s: Up until about 2 years ago I really hadn´t done any volunteering to be honest, but after I left my career to pursue medicine I had several volunteer experiences abroad. When I came back to the US to take my pre-reqs, I volunteered at a nursing home with alzheimers patients, as well as at the hospital. At my interviews, not ONE person asked me about my hospital volunteering, but I had one really really interested in my nursing home experience, and everyone was interested in my experiences abroad. As people have said, do something that is passionate for you, don´t just go to the hospital because that´s what all the pre-meds do...
I´ll address jobs as well, I´d advise to include ALL of them. I am an engineer and I tied my experience and education as an engineer into every aspect of my application. I think it made me stand out, and I think this is an area that non-trads have a significant advantage, so USE it! When I was 13-18 I worked in corn fields over the summer and several people mentioned this in my interviews as something GREAT hahaha so like I say, no matter how menial, include your work experiences!
I had no experience shadowing apart from what I saw as a volunteer...
Essays and Interviews: Every one of us non-trads has an advantage over the traditional students, and that is life experience and a more profound insight into why we want to study medicine. For us, medicine probably wasn´t that thing we grew up saying "I´m going to do this when I grow up", it was something that we realized later on. Make your essays and interviews about that reason, and feel confident that it is a good one. After all, you´ve gotta have a pretty good reason to go to all the trouble of becoming a student again after you´ve gotten away from it!
Finally, use SDN to gain knowledge and insight into the process, but I can tell you I was depressed more than once after reading some of the stuff on here, specifically people with great stats and ECs posting about rejections...Don´t let it get you down, there are MANY variables that you don´t know about, and each person is different. Be confident, make a plan, and go for it!
Good Luck to all my fellow non-trads!
GPA: My gpa wasn´t too bad, but it is still under average to every school I applied to (between 3.3-3.4) so this was certainly something I worried about constantly, especially reading people´s experiences on SDN...I did have an upward trend however and when I completed my pre-reqs (at the University part-time) I made sure to get all A´s. I think this helped show that when I put my mind to it, I could nail my courses.
MCAT: This is killer for everyone who has to make up a little for their GPA. There are plenty of study tips on here so I won´t elaborate.
LOR´s: This is also something that worried me, as I only really knew one professor from undergrad who I was sure could write me a LOR. However, when I took my pre-reqs, I made a point to go to office hours (even if I didn´t really need to) just to get to know the professor. It paid off bigtime! If you have a chance to take classes again, don´t miss the opportunity to network as much as possible! I also had a LOR from a former boss (from my career after college) and I asked many schools if I could use it as a non-science LOR and they all said if I was at least 2 years out of school that I could substitute it.
EC´s: Up until about 2 years ago I really hadn´t done any volunteering to be honest, but after I left my career to pursue medicine I had several volunteer experiences abroad. When I came back to the US to take my pre-reqs, I volunteered at a nursing home with alzheimers patients, as well as at the hospital. At my interviews, not ONE person asked me about my hospital volunteering, but I had one really really interested in my nursing home experience, and everyone was interested in my experiences abroad. As people have said, do something that is passionate for you, don´t just go to the hospital because that´s what all the pre-meds do...
I´ll address jobs as well, I´d advise to include ALL of them. I am an engineer and I tied my experience and education as an engineer into every aspect of my application. I think it made me stand out, and I think this is an area that non-trads have a significant advantage, so USE it! When I was 13-18 I worked in corn fields over the summer and several people mentioned this in my interviews as something GREAT hahaha so like I say, no matter how menial, include your work experiences!
I had no experience shadowing apart from what I saw as a volunteer...
Essays and Interviews: Every one of us non-trads has an advantage over the traditional students, and that is life experience and a more profound insight into why we want to study medicine. For us, medicine probably wasn´t that thing we grew up saying "I´m going to do this when I grow up", it was something that we realized later on. Make your essays and interviews about that reason, and feel confident that it is a good one. After all, you´ve gotta have a pretty good reason to go to all the trouble of becoming a student again after you´ve gotten away from it!
Finally, use SDN to gain knowledge and insight into the process, but I can tell you I was depressed more than once after reading some of the stuff on here, specifically people with great stats and ECs posting about rejections...Don´t let it get you down, there are MANY variables that you don´t know about, and each person is different. Be confident, make a plan, and go for it!
Good Luck to all my fellow non-trads!
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Thank you all for the great tips and insight, starting with Q and going down from there. This topic has so many posts and they are all so detailed, I'll admit I haven't read everything yet, but it seems to be great advise.
I'm in my mid-30's, beginning to take my pre-meds this fall, so the earliest class I'll be applying for is 2014. But I like to get as much info as early as possible.
I am in the same boat as a lot of folks here, my undergrad GPA is only so-so, about a 3.2 (no studying at all) and my law school GPA was an even 3.0 (about 50-60% effort... I REALLY didn't want to be there). But instead of looking at that as an obstacle, I'm looking at it as an opportunity, as I encourage you all who are still working towards admissions, like myself, to do the same. I'm looking at it as I have a huge number of opportunities to make myself shine to the ADCOMS, working hard on the MCAT (if studying for it is anything like studying for the Bar Exam... well that is just a special little dose of hell,) and pre-med classes, as well as the PS and essays.
I particularly liked, and will be copying, the statement by Q (I believe) that various Deans were kept abreast of your progress as you moved through this process. I think that would definitely be in my best interest, after all, it is always harder to say "no" to someone you have a rapport with.
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for all the great posts! For all you guys who made it, congratulations, you will be/are great doctors I'm sure! For all of us going through this process, regardless of how far along, stay focused and stay positive! You can do it!
I'm in my mid-30's, beginning to take my pre-meds this fall, so the earliest class I'll be applying for is 2014. But I like to get as much info as early as possible.
I am in the same boat as a lot of folks here, my undergrad GPA is only so-so, about a 3.2 (no studying at all) and my law school GPA was an even 3.0 (about 50-60% effort... I REALLY didn't want to be there). But instead of looking at that as an obstacle, I'm looking at it as an opportunity, as I encourage you all who are still working towards admissions, like myself, to do the same. I'm looking at it as I have a huge number of opportunities to make myself shine to the ADCOMS, working hard on the MCAT (if studying for it is anything like studying for the Bar Exam... well that is just a special little dose of hell,
) and pre-med classes, as well as the PS and essays.I particularly liked, and will be copying, the statement by Q (I believe) that various Deans were kept abreast of your progress as you moved through this process. I think that would definitely be in my best interest, after all, it is always harder to say "no" to someone you have a rapport with.
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for all the great posts! For all you guys who made it, congratulations, you will be/are great doctors I'm sure! For all of us going through this process, regardless of how far along, stay focused and stay positive! You can do it!
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With a little over a month to go before I officially start as an M1, I wanted to share my own experiences before too many of the details go fuzzy due to old age. Also, post 3,000.
I consider myself a non-trad because I'm changing careers, but when I think about so many of you who are making the transition to medicine, I sometimes doubt if that's accurate. My story in comparison is rather traditional, as I don't have family responsibilities to balance or past academic hurdles to overcome. I also lacked some of the stressors others have had to deal with: I had a solid job, my manager was supportive of my career plans, I could take time off (within reason, so long as I completed my deliverables) for school, and if my application was unsuccessful, I still had my job and could try again.
Having spent a lot of time on SDN during the application cycle, I don't think my experience is anything new under the sun. I do know that when I started, I thought I was a pretty unique snowflake and none of the guidance I had read was directly applicable to my situation. In retrospect, that was probably a little arrogant. In this post, perhaps hopeful applicants will see aspects of themselves reflected in my attitudes and actions and take the advice here and elsewhere to heart. Also, with respect to SDN, it can be quite the valuable resource, but it can also feed paranoia/neurosis. Be careful. Especially when reading what I wrote below.
Details of my bio, stats, and application experience can be found on my MDApplicants profile.
GPA:
With acceptable cumulative and BCPM GPAs from undergrad, this was not a concern of mine. My grades in my remaining prerequisites completed as a post-bacc student did not appreciably change my numbers.
MCAT:
Scheduling: I scheduled mine for the September after I completed my prereqs (June), giving me ample time to study while the material is somewhat fresh in my head. I thought this worked well for me. If I missed my target score, I had the remainder of the year to study for a January sitting, and I'd get my score back in plenty of time to make decisions about where to apply based on it.
Preparation: generally, make sure to take as many practice FLs as you can and make sure you're scoring higher than where you want to be. I took only three and feel I was overconfident in retrospect. Whether you should take a prep course is a personal decision. I felt I would derive no benefit from a course, as test-taking doesn't faze me and all I wanted was a review book that outlined/summarized what I should know for the test. My course textbooks and notes were more than adequate supplements. Materials I used: Kaplan MCAT Premier, Qbank, and AAMC practice exams 3, 9, and 10. I would recommend the Kaplan materials to anyone interested.
Essays:
I do think being a non-trad helps for the personal statement, as I think our maturity and experience (and indeed the very fact that we're changing our lives to pursue a career in medicine) means we have a better awareness of why we are doing this and are better prepared to answer the question "why medicine?". The only difficulty should be in putting pen to paper (fingers to keyboard?), but I think those are issues of mechanics that can be overcome.
Advice and opinions about what you should do with your statement are a dime a dozen on SDN. Many people feel that if other aspects of your application are less than stellar, the personal statement is the area where you need to shine. While I think there's some truth there, some people will be tempted to resort to flash over substance, which, if executed improperly, can make one's statement crash and burn. I doubt anyone would dispute that. The advice I would give: don't get hung up in everyone's advice and opinions to start with. Just write. Then, when you think you have a decent draft, get feedback from as many people as possible. Solicit feedback from the volunteer PS readers, both here and in pre-allo (even though it's not half-bad advice to avoid pre-allo usually). Edit. Repeat. Now, it's obviously up to you to decide whose feedback to take to heart and whose to ignore; but if you see trends in people's responses, don't ignore that.
Secondary essays are easier in comparison, as they tend to be shorter and have more focused questions. I don't think there's a need to have those reviewed externally, unless you're really a terrible writer.
LORs:
I shared the same unease as many others wondering what to do for letters, especially academic ones. For those, I relied on my post-bacc biology teacher and my lab instructor. Because my teacher teaches as part of an established post-baccalaureate pre-health program, he's written many letters over the years for nontrads, even those with whom he did not have significant contact with in class. I didn't have much of a choice here, but I didn't have any concerns about the letter he would write, either. I supplemented it with my lab instructor, who did have more significant contact with me.
I was lucky to have a supportive manager at work write me a letter, as well as a very awesome supervisor at my volunteering organization who agreed to write me a letter at the last minute when another letter writer went incommunicado.
In general, solicit early and often. Give them enough time, but don't hesitate to hold them to their commitment. Don't be in the position of having to scramble for a letter. And I also recommend using Interfolio.
ECs:
In retrospect, I could have improved on this part of my app. Because I rushed my app, I didn't have the time to find or fit in any official shadowing opportunities. I think my occupation in the medical devices industry and my personal experiences with family and friends in the hospital may have made up for this, but I did not list those personal experiences on my primary app, only a description of my job. I probably should have taken the time to ensure that the description adequately conveyed what I did in my job; I treated it as a rehash of the job posting description, which barely scratches the surface of what I do. Additionally, if I waited a year, I would have also had so much more to talk about with respect to my Red Cross work, especially with respect to the added mentoring and leadership responsibilities I took on after I submitted my app.
Interviews:
I didn't find my interviews generally difficult. When I interviewed over seven years ago for the job I'm now leaving, it was a full-day affair, consisting of multiple 30-minute interviews with 1-2 people at a time, involving both technical and non-technical questioning, and delivering a presentation on my research to a team of about 20 people. In comparison, my med school interviews were easy. I found them kind of fun, actually: they're kind of like the improv exercises we'd do when I did drama club back in school. If you have a good sense of self-awareness and know your application inside and out (which you should), most interviews should not throw you. I didn't do any real interview prep, so I can't advise anyone in this respect.
One time I did stumble was when the very first question I was asked by an interviewer was "So, tell me a little bit about yourself." I really didn't know where to start.
Other advice:
Do try to make your application as best as it can be before you go through with it. If this means taking extra time to prep for your MCAT, to log hours doing "unspoken prerequisite" EC activities, or to cultivate relationships with people who can provide you strong recommendation letters, do it. Don't count on doing well in interviews to make up for weak areas in your application, because you need to look good on paper before you can show yourself off in person. Just like a balanced MCAT score is desirable, a balanced application is, too. Do your best to avoid needing to reapply: in retrospect, I can't imagine going through the application process a second time.
Also, post 3,000.I consider myself a non-trad because I'm changing careers, but when I think about so many of you who are making the transition to medicine, I sometimes doubt if that's accurate. My story in comparison is rather traditional, as I don't have family responsibilities to balance or past academic hurdles to overcome. I also lacked some of the stressors others have had to deal with: I had a solid job, my manager was supportive of my career plans, I could take time off (within reason, so long as I completed my deliverables) for school, and if my application was unsuccessful, I still had my job and could try again.
Having spent a lot of time on SDN during the application cycle, I don't think my experience is anything new under the sun. I do know that when I started, I thought I was a pretty unique snowflake and none of the guidance I had read was directly applicable to my situation. In retrospect, that was probably a little arrogant. In this post, perhaps hopeful applicants will see aspects of themselves reflected in my attitudes and actions and take the advice here and elsewhere to heart. Also, with respect to SDN, it can be quite the valuable resource, but it can also feed paranoia/neurosis. Be careful. Especially when reading what I wrote below.
Details of my bio, stats, and application experience can be found on my MDApplicants profile.
GPA:
With acceptable cumulative and BCPM GPAs from undergrad, this was not a concern of mine. My grades in my remaining prerequisites completed as a post-bacc student did not appreciably change my numbers.
MCAT:
Scheduling: I scheduled mine for the September after I completed my prereqs (June), giving me ample time to study while the material is somewhat fresh in my head. I thought this worked well for me. If I missed my target score, I had the remainder of the year to study for a January sitting, and I'd get my score back in plenty of time to make decisions about where to apply based on it.
Preparation: generally, make sure to take as many practice FLs as you can and make sure you're scoring higher than where you want to be. I took only three and feel I was overconfident in retrospect. Whether you should take a prep course is a personal decision. I felt I would derive no benefit from a course, as test-taking doesn't faze me and all I wanted was a review book that outlined/summarized what I should know for the test. My course textbooks and notes were more than adequate supplements. Materials I used: Kaplan MCAT Premier, Qbank, and AAMC practice exams 3, 9, and 10. I would recommend the Kaplan materials to anyone interested.
Essays:
I do think being a non-trad helps for the personal statement, as I think our maturity and experience (and indeed the very fact that we're changing our lives to pursue a career in medicine) means we have a better awareness of why we are doing this and are better prepared to answer the question "why medicine?". The only difficulty should be in putting pen to paper (fingers to keyboard?), but I think those are issues of mechanics that can be overcome.
Advice and opinions about what you should do with your statement are a dime a dozen on SDN. Many people feel that if other aspects of your application are less than stellar, the personal statement is the area where you need to shine. While I think there's some truth there, some people will be tempted to resort to flash over substance, which, if executed improperly, can make one's statement crash and burn. I doubt anyone would dispute that. The advice I would give: don't get hung up in everyone's advice and opinions to start with. Just write. Then, when you think you have a decent draft, get feedback from as many people as possible. Solicit feedback from the volunteer PS readers, both here and in pre-allo (even though it's not half-bad advice to avoid pre-allo usually). Edit. Repeat. Now, it's obviously up to you to decide whose feedback to take to heart and whose to ignore; but if you see trends in people's responses, don't ignore that.
Secondary essays are easier in comparison, as they tend to be shorter and have more focused questions. I don't think there's a need to have those reviewed externally, unless you're really a terrible writer.
LORs:
I shared the same unease as many others wondering what to do for letters, especially academic ones. For those, I relied on my post-bacc biology teacher and my lab instructor. Because my teacher teaches as part of an established post-baccalaureate pre-health program, he's written many letters over the years for nontrads, even those with whom he did not have significant contact with in class. I didn't have much of a choice here, but I didn't have any concerns about the letter he would write, either. I supplemented it with my lab instructor, who did have more significant contact with me.
I was lucky to have a supportive manager at work write me a letter, as well as a very awesome supervisor at my volunteering organization who agreed to write me a letter at the last minute when another letter writer went incommunicado.
In general, solicit early and often. Give them enough time, but don't hesitate to hold them to their commitment. Don't be in the position of having to scramble for a letter. And I also recommend using Interfolio.
ECs:
In retrospect, I could have improved on this part of my app. Because I rushed my app, I didn't have the time to find or fit in any official shadowing opportunities. I think my occupation in the medical devices industry and my personal experiences with family and friends in the hospital may have made up for this, but I did not list those personal experiences on my primary app, only a description of my job. I probably should have taken the time to ensure that the description adequately conveyed what I did in my job; I treated it as a rehash of the job posting description, which barely scratches the surface of what I do. Additionally, if I waited a year, I would have also had so much more to talk about with respect to my Red Cross work, especially with respect to the added mentoring and leadership responsibilities I took on after I submitted my app.
Interviews:
I didn't find my interviews generally difficult. When I interviewed over seven years ago for the job I'm now leaving, it was a full-day affair, consisting of multiple 30-minute interviews with 1-2 people at a time, involving both technical and non-technical questioning, and delivering a presentation on my research to a team of about 20 people. In comparison, my med school interviews were easy. I found them kind of fun, actually: they're kind of like the improv exercises we'd do when I did drama club back in school. If you have a good sense of self-awareness and know your application inside and out (which you should), most interviews should not throw you. I didn't do any real interview prep, so I can't advise anyone in this respect.
One time I did stumble was when the very first question I was asked by an interviewer was "So, tell me a little bit about yourself." I really didn't know where to start.
Other advice:
Do try to make your application as best as it can be before you go through with it. If this means taking extra time to prep for your MCAT, to log hours doing "unspoken prerequisite" EC activities, or to cultivate relationships with people who can provide you strong recommendation letters, do it. Don't count on doing well in interviews to make up for weak areas in your application, because you need to look good on paper before you can show yourself off in person. Just like a balanced MCAT score is desirable, a balanced application is, too. Do your best to avoid needing to reapply: in retrospect, I can't imagine going through the application process a second time.
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Oh, I"m glad this thread got bumped up. Here is my tale since I'm starting school in three weeks! I am a PhD to MD story. I'm 31, married but with no children and I ended up having to apply twice. The difference between the application cycles was earlier timing, more schools, and more clinical experience on my resume.
GPA:
I had a decent undergrad GPA (3.6), especially considering it was from about ten years ago so I wasn't worried about that. I also had already taken all of my prereqs because I majored in biochemistry as an undergrad and they were just par for the course.
MCAT:
By the time I decided to apply the first time around I couldn't take my MCAT until late July (earliest test date available in my admittedly pre-med saturated area). This meant my primary wouldn't be verified until late august/ early september. Which is okay if you have better numbers and a wider net than I did, but otherwise is basically death. I don't think I did nearly enough practice questions. If I had it to do over again I would have found the EK 1001 books much sooner and pored through those rather than focusing on content review. Also I probably would have taken a class to refresh myself on stuff that was 10yrs old in my head (physics I'm talking to you!). As it was I got lower than my practice exams and did just average (31) so I had to decide whether I should take it over again or not. I decided not mostly out of pure laziness--I just didn't want to and I felt my score was good enough to get by. Plus I read so much about how not to retake unless you felt sure you could bump your score by 4+ points and I just didn't think I was likely to go up by more than 3 max so I let it be.
Essays:
My first application essay I thought was terrible but I didn't really know how to make it better. My second one was much better in my eyes and also in the eyes of colleagues of mine who were willing to read it. Definitely get readers and make sure they are telling you the truth! Those folks are hard to find.
I actually don't think the PS is really all that important (or maybe I just didn't write a good enough one) but definitely do spend enough time on it so it doesn't seem like a throw-a-way to you. Also, please don't start it with an interesting 'hook'. I've now read enough PSes to know how formulaic and trite that is. Tell your story! Don't be afraid to show emotion and passion. Be who you are, have faith that you are an interesting person.
LORs:
Because I had been in grad school I had plenty of people who were available to write letters for me. Make sure to ask people who you know will write great letters. I know I had at least two letters that made me sound AMAZING and that those helped.
ECs:
Because I've always been the type of person to pursue activities outside of work I had no shortage of these. However the first time I applied I had no recent medically relevant clinical experience and I think that was a big downfall. Second time around I had volunteered at a hospital and on a hotline and those experiences came up in every single interview. Definitely have this and definitely have enough of it to show that you know how to work with people and that you know what you're getting into.
Interviews:
My first interview (first cycle of apps) I think I was too casual and honest, actually. The interviewer wants to know the best part of you and that is all. Don't reveal faults or weakness, don't make any criticisms of anything. Be positive, outgoing, and eager. I used this strategy and on my second round I got acceptances at 4/4 places, ultimately.
Other advice:
Prepare yourself for a long, grueling process which will seriously harm your ego (if you have any more than a doormat). Be humble, and thankful. Be nice to everyone you meet. Try to stay excited. You will get through it even if it takes multiple cycles.
GPA:
I had a decent undergrad GPA (3.6), especially considering it was from about ten years ago so I wasn't worried about that. I also had already taken all of my prereqs because I majored in biochemistry as an undergrad and they were just par for the course.
MCAT:
By the time I decided to apply the first time around I couldn't take my MCAT until late July (earliest test date available in my admittedly pre-med saturated area). This meant my primary wouldn't be verified until late august/ early september. Which is okay if you have better numbers and a wider net than I did, but otherwise is basically death. I don't think I did nearly enough practice questions. If I had it to do over again I would have found the EK 1001 books much sooner and pored through those rather than focusing on content review. Also I probably would have taken a class to refresh myself on stuff that was 10yrs old in my head (physics I'm talking to you!). As it was I got lower than my practice exams and did just average (31) so I had to decide whether I should take it over again or not. I decided not mostly out of pure laziness--I just didn't want to and I felt my score was good enough to get by. Plus I read so much about how not to retake unless you felt sure you could bump your score by 4+ points and I just didn't think I was likely to go up by more than 3 max so I let it be.
Essays:
My first application essay I thought was terrible but I didn't really know how to make it better. My second one was much better in my eyes and also in the eyes of colleagues of mine who were willing to read it. Definitely get readers and make sure they are telling you the truth! Those folks are hard to find.
I actually don't think the PS is really all that important (or maybe I just didn't write a good enough one) but definitely do spend enough time on it so it doesn't seem like a throw-a-way to you. Also, please don't start it with an interesting 'hook'. I've now read enough PSes to know how formulaic and trite that is. Tell your story! Don't be afraid to show emotion and passion. Be who you are, have faith that you are an interesting person.
LORs:
Because I had been in grad school I had plenty of people who were available to write letters for me. Make sure to ask people who you know will write great letters. I know I had at least two letters that made me sound AMAZING and that those helped.
ECs:
Because I've always been the type of person to pursue activities outside of work I had no shortage of these. However the first time I applied I had no recent medically relevant clinical experience and I think that was a big downfall. Second time around I had volunteered at a hospital and on a hotline and those experiences came up in every single interview. Definitely have this and definitely have enough of it to show that you know how to work with people and that you know what you're getting into.
Interviews:
My first interview (first cycle of apps) I think I was too casual and honest, actually. The interviewer wants to know the best part of you and that is all. Don't reveal faults or weakness, don't make any criticisms of anything. Be positive, outgoing, and eager. I used this strategy and on my second round I got acceptances at 4/4 places, ultimately.
Other advice:
Prepare yourself for a long, grueling process which will seriously harm your ego (if you have any more than a doormat). Be humble, and thankful. Be nice to everyone you meet. Try to stay excited. You will get through it even if it takes multiple cycles.
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I'll post my story. I'm a Canadian Applicant to DO schools only. I lived the majority of my life in an underserved rural area of Northern Ontario that would have made me a competitive applicant to a few Canadian MD schools that do not require the MCAT, but I like the DO philosophy and have a great DO mentor that I want to work with.
GPA: My gpawas over 10 years old when I applied. 3.76 science GPA. I'm also a Dentist. My dental school GPA was not included in my AACOMAS application, but it was 3.5 and I graduated 14/77 in my dental school class. I scored in the 90th percentile on my dental school board exams which I made known to a few DO schools I applied to.
MCAT: With Prereqs over 15 years old, I took the MCAT with 2.5 months studying and scored a mediocre 25. Being Canadian this was a little bit of a problem. Schools with MCAT averages around this didn't invite me for interviews because there were other Canadians with higher MCAT scores.
EC's--Well I have 10 years of direct clinical experience as a dentist. I've worked in the ER and I've assisted Oral surgeons in orthognathic reconstruction cases. I've also shadowed a DO. I took CME related to Family Medicine. Also all my jobs throughout high school and college involve teaching either through summer camps or tutoring.
I applied very late in 2010 and was wait listed at 2 schools. In 2011 I applied early and received 4 interviews. I was accepted to my number one choice early september and only attended one interview.
Advice: I had to find a school that valued my clinical experience. Most schools value numbers which is understandable, but I expected more schools to value my ability to talk to people. As a dentist I interact with fearful patients daily and it is a skill to ease them. I am grateful my number one choice realized this.
GPA: My gpawas over 10 years old when I applied. 3.76 science GPA. I'm also a Dentist. My dental school GPA was not included in my AACOMAS application, but it was 3.5 and I graduated 14/77 in my dental school class. I scored in the 90th percentile on my dental school board exams which I made known to a few DO schools I applied to.
MCAT: With Prereqs over 15 years old, I took the MCAT with 2.5 months studying and scored a mediocre 25. Being Canadian this was a little bit of a problem. Schools with MCAT averages around this didn't invite me for interviews because there were other Canadians with higher MCAT scores.
EC's--Well I have 10 years of direct clinical experience as a dentist. I've worked in the ER and I've assisted Oral surgeons in orthognathic reconstruction cases. I've also shadowed a DO. I took CME related to Family Medicine. Also all my jobs throughout high school and college involve teaching either through summer camps or tutoring.
I applied very late in 2010 and was wait listed at 2 schools. In 2011 I applied early and received 4 interviews. I was accepted to my number one choice early september and only attended one interview.
Advice: I had to find a school that valued my clinical experience. Most schools value numbers which is understandable, but I expected more schools to value my ability to talk to people. As a dentist I interact with fearful patients daily and it is a skill to ease them. I am grateful my number one choice realized this.
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I'm a MS -> MD/DO, with two DO acceptances and one MD waitlist thus far into the season.
GPA:
I had a decent undergrad GPA (3.7/3.8). Still, I decided to take a couple of upper-division biology classes as a post-bacc student for a couple of reasons.
MCAT:
I took the MCAT twice. The first time I scored a 25, with a 6 in verbal. At first I thought the problem was less time, so I took the live Kaplan course + EK verbal 101 passages. I scored a 28O the second time around, with a 7 in verbal. If there's a red flag on my application, verbal would definitely be it. I've gotten some heat and even some nasty comments from people on this site, but haters gon' hate. It is what it is.
Essays:
I definitely paid attention when people told me my first few drafts didn't thoroughly explain WHY MEDICINE? Other than that, I decided to take a chance by using my experiences as a HIV tester/counselor as an opening "hook," which has gone well in interviews so far.
*knock on wood*
LORs:
Because I had been in grad school I had plenty of people who were available to write letters for me. Make sure to ask people who you know will write great letters.
ECs:
Do 1-2 long term activities. Try not to spread yourself too thin. And do something that interests YOU. It'll come out when asked about it in an interview. I had plenty of research, teaching and mentoring experiences prior to switching gears to medicine. I added in the usual hospital ER volunteer gig, which turned out to be a big help as my current job has me interacting with some of the physicians and staff at that same hospital. The HIV tester gig was about being at the right place at the right time.
Interviews:
I'm pretty straightforward in interviews and was surprising as to how relaxed these were compared to some of my job interviews in big pharma, which required a presentation on my research and multiple interviews. For the MMI format, just utilize the full amount of time to read through the prompts. I felt like I was back in high school drama class doing improv exercises.
Other advice:
Do whatever it takes to stay sane. Exercise. Eat healthy. Find friends that are warm, loving, supportive, and can have conversations that do not revolve around medical school applications. Try not to refresh your smartphone email every 10 seconds.
GPA:
I had a decent undergrad GPA (3.7/3.8). Still, I decided to take a couple of upper-division biology classes as a post-bacc student for a couple of reasons.
MCAT:
I took the MCAT twice. The first time I scored a 25, with a 6 in verbal. At first I thought the problem was less time, so I took the live Kaplan course + EK verbal 101 passages. I scored a 28O the second time around, with a 7 in verbal. If there's a red flag on my application, verbal would definitely be it. I've gotten some heat and even some nasty comments from people on this site, but haters gon' hate. It is what it is.
Essays:
I definitely paid attention when people told me my first few drafts didn't thoroughly explain WHY MEDICINE? Other than that, I decided to take a chance by using my experiences as a HIV tester/counselor as an opening "hook," which has gone well in interviews so far.
*knock on wood*LORs:
Because I had been in grad school I had plenty of people who were available to write letters for me. Make sure to ask people who you know will write great letters.
ECs:
Do 1-2 long term activities. Try not to spread yourself too thin. And do something that interests YOU. It'll come out when asked about it in an interview. I had plenty of research, teaching and mentoring experiences prior to switching gears to medicine. I added in the usual hospital ER volunteer gig, which turned out to be a big help as my current job has me interacting with some of the physicians and staff at that same hospital. The HIV tester gig was about being at the right place at the right time.
Interviews:
I'm pretty straightforward in interviews and was surprising as to how relaxed these were compared to some of my job interviews in big pharma, which required a presentation on my research and multiple interviews. For the MMI format, just utilize the full amount of time to read through the prompts. I felt like I was back in high school drama class doing improv exercises.
Other advice:
Do whatever it takes to stay sane. Exercise. Eat healthy. Find friends that are warm, loving, supportive, and can have conversations that do not revolve around medical school applications. Try not to refresh your smartphone email every 10 seconds.
I am a current allopathic medical student who started med school at age 31. I applied at age 30 to 22 medical schools. Of those, I received 21 secondaries, was invited on 19 interviews, attended 17 of them, and received 12 acceptances, six with full scholarships.
I'll start by saying that my general philosophy is that there are two broad categories that you must consider as you go through the app process. The obvious one that we spend a lot of time discussing in this forum and elsewhere on SDN is how to improve your weak areas. That is certainly a major component of improving your competitiveness as an applicant. But one equally important aspect to being a successful applicant that we don't discuss nearly as often is that you must also highlight your strengths. Do not underestimate the importance of doing this: medical schools are not charities, and they are looking for people who are successful. You must show them that you are successful, as well as that you have the potential to continue being successful in med school and beyond.
I would say that there are six areas where medical school applicants must strive to distinguish themselves, whether they are trads or non-trads. These include the obvious ones like GPA and MCAT, but also ECs, essays, LORs, and interviewing skills. I will go through each one and give some examples from my own application saga.
GPA: This is a big area of weakness for a lot of non-trads because many of us have subpar UG GPAs for allopathic medical schools, and I am no different. I had an especially sticky problem in this respect because I had no UG GPA at all. I took all of my UG coursework (including the pre-med pre-reqs) P/F, and I have no credit hours or grades. AMCAS calculated my UG GPA as zero. As you can imagine, this caused me significant problems at several schools. I was able to overcome this problem in several ways. One was that I scored very high on the MCAT. A second was that I had graduate grades and GPAs for my MS and PhD. The third was that I copied my narrative evaluations from college and sent copies of them to all 22 schools along with a cover letter explaining how my college worked, as well as that it was accredited! This was amazingly expensive and time-consuming, but I believe that it helped considerably. When I went for pre-app counseling, one admissions office suggested that I consider taking a year of post-bac classes at the UG level in order to establish an UG GPA and prove that I could still handle the work. I elected not to do this since I was in grad school for my PhD at the time. My decision to not follow this advice may have hurt me at a few of the schools, particularly the ones that rejected me with no interview. In my applications and interviews, I stressed that my graduate record and MCAT scores both "proved" that I was capable and ready to handle medical school coursework.
MCAT: This was an area of immense strength for me. I scored a 43S on the MCAT in August 2004, and I have posted extensively about how to study for the MCAT on SDN over the past two years. You can find most of my MCAT advice in the MCAT forum and Study Questions subforum if you are interested. The MCAT score was not an area that I particularly had to do much explaining about on applications or at interviews; it basically spoke for itself.
Essays: This is another crucial aspect of your application. Both your PS and your secondary essays are read by the adcoms, and at most schools, by your interviewers. In general, your PS should answer the questions of why you want to go to med school, and what experiences you've had to back this assertion up. Initially, my PS was not very appropriate for a medical school application. I got a lot of feedback from some SDNers (thanks again, njb!) and the preadmissions counseling sessions about this. I decided to follow their advice, and I rewrote my PS from scratch along much more conventional lines. It wasn't nearly as entertaining to read, but it was a lot more appropriate. I think that this was one area where the pre-admissions counseling I received both at the med schools and from some SDNers helped me improve my app tremendously. I do not think I would have been as successful of an applicant if I had obstinately stuck with my first essay. In general, I advise all of you to ask others in the know (med students, admissions counselors, etc.) to read your essays. If everyone keeps making the same criticism, you probably should seriously consider taking their advice.
LORs: These are not directly in your control, but what *is* in your control is to carefully chose whom you are going to ask for letters, and to get the proper letters. Most schools require three LORs but will permit you to submit up to six. I usually sent four, but I had five total. I got letters from my PI for my PhD, my PI on the clinical trial where I volunteered, my manager at Kaplan, one of my PhD committee members, and one peer. (My state schools require peer letters. I asked a former UG student of mine who was an M1 at the time to write the peer letter for me.) Second, I advise you all to use interfolio ( www.interfolio.com ) or another online clearinghouse for your LORs. This makes both your life and the life of your recommenders MUCH easier. It costs a little more, but I think it was completely worth it in terms of the decreased stress associated with submitting LORs to the schools. Third, many schools want letters from non-science faculty. This was not possible in my case, because my UG Spanish professor had retired some time in the past ten years since I left the college. I asked those schools for permission to substitute the employer letter instead, and they all agreed to this. I advise you non-trads who have been out of school for a long time to ask your schools for permission to substitute employer letters too. It will make your life a lot easier. Also, when you ask people to write your letters, impress upon them that these letters must be strong, and they must attest to your abilities to succeed in medical school. The best LORs cite specific examples of things you have done to show that you possess characteristics like responsibility, a good work ethic, honesty, etc. Give the person a copy of your transcript and your CV to use in crafting the letter. Finally, it goes without saying that you should send thank you notes to everyone who writes you a LOR.
ECs: This was another area where I was kind of lopsided and did not have a very good appreciation of my strengths and weaknesses before I went for the preadmissions counseling. It was obvious to us all that my research background was one of my strengths. I was also extensively involved as a volunteer for BBBS, doing science demonstrations for inner-city elementary school kids, working on the MCAT subforum here on SDN, and volunteering as a co-investigator and project manager of the clinical trial. I thought that should be enough. However, what I learned from the counseling is that many medical schools would like to see RECENT CLINICAL volunteering. I was advised to volunteer in a hospital or clinic on top of these other things. I decided to take this advice, and I began volunteering in a hospital surgery waiting room. At the time, I was in my last year of grad school, and the only time I could do it was from 6-8 AM. This was incredibly painful. Every week, I would turn off the alarm clock at 5 AM and wish I could go back to sleep, but then I would ask myself: Q, would you rather get two more hours of sleep, or do you want to go to med school? And then I would get my butt out of bed and go volunteer. That I did this was TREMENDOUSLY important. I got asked about it at a third to a half of my interviews, even at several heavily research-intensive schools. What makes this all the more incredible is that I would not have even known about this weakness of mine, let alone taken steps to correct it, had I not gotten the preadmissions counseling.
One other thing I came to discover is that I had a "hidden" strength that I hadn't ever really considered before, and that was as an educator. Look again at my list of volunteering ECs, and you will see that nearly all of them involve teaching of some kind. I had also won two major teaching awards, and I was employed as an instructor for Kaplan and at my university. I didn't come to appreciate how important a strong teaching background is to the medical schools until after I had the preadmissions counseling. Now that I am in medical school, I appreciate the importance of it even more. Doctors spend their entire working lives teaching people: their patients, their colleagues, and themselves. Thus, medical schools are extremely interested in applicants with a teaching background. I wound up making this personal strength one of the central themes of my PS and discussing it extensively at my interviews. Again, I doubt I would have thought to do this had I not gone for preadmissions counseling.
Interviews: Once you have reached this point, the acceptance is still not in the bag. It is essential that you practice expressing the points you made in your PS in a clear, concise, and engaging way. It is also essential that you can articulate why you want to attend each school where you interview. I did several things to prepare for interviews. First of all, I studied extensively for every interview. I would estimate that it took me about 2-3 hours EACH to prepare for them. What was I doing for that long? Reading the school's entire website and making notes of interesting features or questions I had about the school. (Sometimes I even knew more about the features of the curriculum than my interviewer did.) Going through the interview feedback from that school on SDN. (There were several schools where I got asked the exact same questions I had already seen on SDN.) Re-reading my apps and making sure I could explain my UG thesis research from 12 years ago. (I actually did get asked about it at one school, and the interviewer was d*** impressed that I could rattle off the entire title of my UG thesis!) Engaging in mock interviews. This is key. Some of my fellow Kaplan instructors were home from med school for the summer, and I got a few of them to mock interview me. They were so combative and tough on me that every real interview I had was a cinch in comparison. They accused me of being arrogant because of my MCAT score, or claimed I was using their school as a safety school, or demanded that I "prove" that I had sufficient social skills to be a doctor, etc. It really made me think about how I presented myself and made me aware of how careful I had to be about what impression I was giving off to the interviewers.
Some other tips: I also got help with my essays and interviewing skills from the Office of Diversity at one of my state schools. This may sound strange, but it really isn't when you consider that diversity is a broad term that encompasses much, much more than just race and ethnicity. If you are a non-trad, you will add diversity to your class based on that reason alone. Second, I called every single school before I applied, explained my grade situation, and asked whether I should realistically apply there. A couple of schools discouraged me from applying. One actually outright told me no, that I almost certainly would not be accepted there. I decided not to apply to any school that was not encouraging, with the exception of the one school that rejected me presecondary.
I hope that this post has been helpful, and if anyone has any further questions, feel free to post them or PM me. Best of luck to the current applicants.
Hi Q, When you say that you had pre-application counseling, do you mean with each individual school to which you applied? I did not realize one should reach out to the deans of the schools. I thought that they would frown at that as they get thousands of applications and are busy people. Care to elaborate a little? Thanks!
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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No, from two of my state schools and also UMich by phone. I just called and asked for an appointment with someone in the admissions office.
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ortho, your post is fantastic and really inspiring.
P.S. I've heard from other people about not wearing black suits because everyone does. But I decided that I better wear one too, because I figured I already stood out enough based on my freako transcript and the little Einstein thing I have going with my hair whenever it gets humid....I have to confess that I did wear a leopard print shirt under my suit at some of my interviews though.
Me too! The transcript AND the hair...I was recently informed that I'm known at work as "the smart girl with 'the crazy hair'"....The problem is it's long and unruly so I stick it in a bun, but throughout the day my glasses or the pen behind my ear or whatever slowly wrecks havoc (which I don't notice until well into the afternoon, when I look up at the mirror in the bathroom while washing my hands). Hoping I'll have a better "nickname" in medschool, but if not, "crazy hair" is fine with me too....
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I am a 31 yr old environmental engineer. I have a 3.15 sGPA and a 3.23 cGPA. I graduated from my degree with a 3.51 magna cum laude from NC State. The reason my gpa is so low is that I retook Calc a couple times at the beginning of my journey and failed a computer programming class. The old scores are from 2005 and my degree was from 2012-2015, I had a couple semester with a 3.8 while working full time (with engineering courses this was not easy). I have most of my courses already except organic chem which I am planning on taking through a community college. I am working full time as a civil engineer currently and want to get into med school. I really don't have any ec's. I was married while going to school and working full time....had no life.
I really dont want to go back to school for a masters or anything and I believe my transcript shows that I can do well in science courses while working full time. Should I just focus on DO school and start volunteering? I plan on taking the MCAT after I take organic chem.
I really dont want to go back to school for a masters or anything and I believe my transcript shows that I can do well in science courses while working full time. Should I just focus on DO school and start volunteering? I plan on taking the MCAT after I take organic chem.
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Depending on the rest of your application (especially your timeline, the goals you set to achieve in that time, etc) and your expectations, it may not be necessary to do a master's/postbac/whatever to get into MD/DO schools. I wouldn't just "start volunteering". It appears it would behoove you to come up with a plan, complete with deadlines and milestones. Once you draw that up, it will be easier to evaluate you as an applicant. I suggest you do some research to see what schools are looking for, and take an inventory of your skillsets and opportunities, and go from there. SDN is a good resource for such plans, provided you don't get sucked into the nonsense (but hopefully your age and life experience will afford you some immunity).
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The path to med school as a non traditional is a long one, a lot of things you may consider accomplishments are also held out against you as people question your motivations to stick out on this long road when you are already doing well. No easy way to get there quickly. You especially have the extra burden to show schools and yourself that this is absolutely what you want to do with life, more so if you are coming from an unrelated field in which you are doing fine. For that reason, you have to volunteer quite a bit with ideally a letter of recommendation e.g. you become part of the local free clinic team etc. Secondly, the GPA will weigh on your app. The best way is to have a clean break from it. You don't need to do an MS but you need to consider doing a "post bacc" which doesn't need to be a degree program but just you taking a bunch of classes to show you can do well in Chem/Bio etc. I would suggest not doing it at a community college but at a university and do everything you can to get a 4.0. Now I realize this will require work but to be competitive and have a serious shot vs. the tons of applicants out there and to show your true commitment to this journey, it is something that is expected. Perhaps OD would be easier than MD, and that is something you can research, but you'd still have to do a lot of this to show commitment as a nontrad and be competitive. I get the sense that you want to get in quickly but that will make it getting in much harder and reduce the chance of success.
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I'm an end-of-20s MS0. I didn't know anything about applying to med school when I applied, so my first thought would be to find multiple trusted mentors who can help you understand the process. I hadn't seen anyone apply and didn't have a premed advisor and I think I assumed that it was a lot more like a job application than it is.
GPA: Not heinous, not great. It definitely didn't do me any favors, but I think my grades did show that I was capable. Related: I learned that when you go back and start taking classes, you should take them all at one institution and take multiple classes a semester. For my post-back work, there was just one really unfortunate bad grade pulling me down. Oh well.
MCAT: not bad at all, but along the lines of not knowing the process well enough - I took my first one thinking I'd take it twice. I did plenty well enough the first time and learned that retaking is not a thing you should plan to do, but I'm positive I could have done better with more prep time. I hardcore studied for a little over two weeks, working through 2 sets of books and a bunch of exams. I enjoy and am good at testing, so I had some fun with it. It was also the first time I really sat down and learned test-taking strategies. I think one of the most beneficial things I did was to consciously design stress-reduction and repeatedly revisit and brainstorm ways to optimize my performance.
It's not an exam, it's a puzzle. Treat it as such.
Essays: I wrote a ton of drafts and edited and got input and made a PS. I used the good leftovers for secondaries. I had to get over the fact that I hate the PS style. It's so much more a cover letter than an essay one would choose to read, but it's a cover letter where there's no job posting to go off of. A friend kept reminding me to decide what one or two things I wanted them to know about me and write to those. I got over having to essentially write 'I am an excellent candidate and this is why.' I got over comparing myself to trads feeling like being a non-trad was something to apologize for and focused on conveying all the qualities I have that come with time and experience. It's not bad to be older and wiser!
LORs: I did a diy post-bacc and had two professors volunteer to write for me, one before I even asked them! I was nervous because I couldn't use my old engineering professors for science letters, which meant I had professors who hadn't known me long at the post-bacc or basic science profs from long ago in undergrad. The one prof I knew I wanted agreed, and the one who volunteered was not someone I was so sure about but he was enthusiastic and I assume he wrote something good. I got a non-science letter from an undergrad prof I knew well. Later I got a letter from a doc I know, but I really shouldn't have been all timid about asking docs I know or have shadowed for letters.
I did have problems with LORs not getting transmitted or turned in properly. Be sure to check on your application status and make sure it's all in order, even if admissions staff blow you off or discourage you from asking questions. Don't assume anything is where it should be until you have definite confirmation, preferably from 2 sources.
ECs: I've done a lot since college that I could talk about, although I did run into the issue of not having contacts for a lot of them since there were things I'd founded or organized on my own. I pulled a resume from the end of college to look back on my ug ECs and included some of them. I didn't have so much of the classic hospital volunteering, and while I should have had more clinical exposure to write down, I think it was ok that my experiences were very different from those of my premed classmates. The ECs I did have were rockin'.
Overall, I'd recommend doing a way better job than me of planning out your application process and remediating any weak points, including school list. Don't get pulled into the trap of comparing yourself to the traditional applicants who have the apps that check all the boxes - you've probably done some interesting and relevant stuff that's just out of reach to college students. Emphasize the skills and abilities that set you apart from your perfect-app traditional classmates. Use your time well, and apply workplace knowledge to studying. School is your job, so you have to give it its due and find the techniques, tools, and strategies that work for you. Use your age and insight! And get to know your professors at the start of every term. Also your classmates, it's good to have school friends, even if they're sooo young.
GPA: Not heinous, not great. It definitely didn't do me any favors, but I think my grades did show that I was capable. Related: I learned that when you go back and start taking classes, you should take them all at one institution and take multiple classes a semester. For my post-back work, there was just one really unfortunate bad grade pulling me down. Oh well.
MCAT: not bad at all, but along the lines of not knowing the process well enough - I took my first one thinking I'd take it twice. I did plenty well enough the first time and learned that retaking is not a thing you should plan to do, but I'm positive I could have done better with more prep time. I hardcore studied for a little over two weeks, working through 2 sets of books and a bunch of exams. I enjoy and am good at testing, so I had some fun with it. It was also the first time I really sat down and learned test-taking strategies. I think one of the most beneficial things I did was to consciously design stress-reduction and repeatedly revisit and brainstorm ways to optimize my performance.
It's not an exam, it's a puzzle. Treat it as such.
Essays: I wrote a ton of drafts and edited and got input and made a PS. I used the good leftovers for secondaries. I had to get over the fact that I hate the PS style. It's so much more a cover letter than an essay one would choose to read, but it's a cover letter where there's no job posting to go off of. A friend kept reminding me to decide what one or two things I wanted them to know about me and write to those. I got over having to essentially write 'I am an excellent candidate and this is why.' I got over comparing myself to trads feeling like being a non-trad was something to apologize for and focused on conveying all the qualities I have that come with time and experience. It's not bad to be older and wiser!
LORs: I did a diy post-bacc and had two professors volunteer to write for me, one before I even asked them! I was nervous because I couldn't use my old engineering professors for science letters, which meant I had professors who hadn't known me long at the post-bacc or basic science profs from long ago in undergrad. The one prof I knew I wanted agreed, and the one who volunteered was not someone I was so sure about but he was enthusiastic and I assume he wrote something good. I got a non-science letter from an undergrad prof I knew well. Later I got a letter from a doc I know, but I really shouldn't have been all timid about asking docs I know or have shadowed for letters.
I did have problems with LORs not getting transmitted or turned in properly. Be sure to check on your application status and make sure it's all in order, even if admissions staff blow you off or discourage you from asking questions. Don't assume anything is where it should be until you have definite confirmation, preferably from 2 sources.
ECs: I've done a lot since college that I could talk about, although I did run into the issue of not having contacts for a lot of them since there were things I'd founded or organized on my own. I pulled a resume from the end of college to look back on my ug ECs and included some of them. I didn't have so much of the classic hospital volunteering, and while I should have had more clinical exposure to write down, I think it was ok that my experiences were very different from those of my premed classmates. The ECs I did have were rockin'.
Overall, I'd recommend doing a way better job than me of planning out your application process and remediating any weak points, including school list. Don't get pulled into the trap of comparing yourself to the traditional applicants who have the apps that check all the boxes - you've probably done some interesting and relevant stuff that's just out of reach to college students. Emphasize the skills and abilities that set you apart from your perfect-app traditional classmates. Use your time well, and apply workplace knowledge to studying. School is your job, so you have to give it its due and find the techniques, tools, and strategies that work for you. Use your age and insight! And get to know your professors at the start of every term. Also your classmates, it's good to have school friends, even if they're sooo young.
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Ill keep mine short. B/C student in high school. Failed out of college --> CC for AA degree -->> 4 year university did better but mediocre. Did 1.5 years post grad and worked manual labor for 1 year before acceptance to carib med school. 90th percentile board scores and now a PGY-1 at my top residency choice.
Keys to my success: work hard, be consistent, find your motivation, do the things that bring your life balance in moderation (sports, parties, tv, etc), and have faith in yourself.
It is easy to get down when you do poorly or things don't go your way. Every day is a new opportunity to work hard and start a new trend. Convince yourself of this no matter how rough your past is. I didn't get a single medical school interview offer after college.... GL out there guys.
Keys to my success: work hard, be consistent, find your motivation, do the things that bring your life balance in moderation (sports, parties, tv, etc), and have faith in yourself.
It is easy to get down when you do poorly or things don't go your way. Every day is a new opportunity to work hard and start a new trend. Convince yourself of this no matter how rough your past is. I didn't get a single medical school interview offer after college.... GL out there guys.
