Non-traditional MD-PhD Psychiatry/Neuroscience/Psychopharmacology

[smkennisher]

Hi all. I'm a 29 y/o guy interested in pursuing an MD-PhD (Psychiatry & Neuroscience/Psychopharmacology)

I have a BA in International Relations and an MS in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. I'm currently a clinician working with individuals with autism spectrum disorders.

I have a wife and two young boys. What are my chances of getting into an MD-PhD program with my background? Will I need more pre-med coursework before applying? Am I way in over my head trying to do this in my 30s with a family?

My goal is to be mainly a researcher in the area mentioned above, with a small portion of my time also devoted to clinical psychiatry practice.

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[eteshoe]

Why not a PhD in psychology with a focus in psychopharmacology?

 

[smkennisher]

Why not a PhD in psychology with a focus in psychopharmacology?

I have done a lot of psychology training with my Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. In fact, half of my degree was technically in Applied Psychology and was spent in the psychology department.

I've trained in psychotherapy, psychological assessment, psychopathology, etc. Pretty much all sub-areas of psychology. I've done research with clinical psychologists, presented at a conference and chaired a symposium with them.

I don't desire to do all that over again in a Ph.D. Clinical Psychology program and do tons of hours doing traditional psychotherapy again.

I am very interested in neuroscience and a biological perspective, and most clinical psychology programs generally focus on training in CBT and/or other schools of psychotherapy, relegating physiological work to the side. Some programs are probably exceptions.

Medical school and psychiatry greatly appeal to me because I want to be a part of medicine more broadly, and want to train in the other sub fields of medicine on my way into psychiatric and neuroscientific research and practice.

Mental health problems lie at a fascinating intersection of inquiry, where issues can be due to everything from maladaptive cognitions to low T3.

Clinical psychology is largely divorced from human biology, whereas psychiatry is in closer contact to other fields I am interested in.

In summary, clinical psychology would be largely redundant for me, whereas medicine and psychiatry would be new and very complementary to the education and training that I've already received.

 

[eteshoe]

I have done a lot of psychology training with my Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. In fact, half of my degree was technically in Applied Psychology and was spent in the psychology department.

I've trained in psychotherapy, psychological assessment, psychopathology, etc. Pretty much all sub-areas of psychology. I've done research with clinical psychologists, presented at a conference and chaired a symposium with them.

I don't desire to do all that over again in a Ph.D. Clinical Psychology program and do tons of hours doing traditional psychotherapy again.

I am very interested in neuroscience and a biological perspective, and most clinical psychology programs generally focus on training in CBT and/or other schools of psychotherapy, relegating physiological work to the side. Some programs are probably exceptions.

Medical school and psychiatry greatly appeal to me because I want to be a part of medicine more broadly, and want to train in the other sub fields of medicine on my way into psychiatric and neuroscientific research and practice.

Mental health problems lie at a fascinating intersection of inquiry, where issues can be due to everything from maladaptive cognitions to low T3.

Clinical psychology is largely divorced from human biology, whereas psychiatry is in closer contact to other fields I am interested in.

In summary, clinical psychology would be largely redundant for me, whereas medicine and psychiatry would be new and very complementary to the education and training that I've already received.

Ok well based on your age - it may be better for you to just do the MD portion with the aim of going into psychiatry. You'd of course want to get involved with as much research as you can during med school. It's not that it would be impossible for you to get into a MD/PhD program (as long as your stats are up to par, etc, etc), but at this point in your life you'd really want to evaluate the length of training required to attain your career goals (assuming you have all the proper pre-reqs finished already):

MD/PhD: 8-10 yrs med school/PhD + 4 yrs psychiatry residency +/- 1-2 yrs fellowship = ~12-16 yrs
MD: 4 yrs med school + 4 yrs psychiatry residency +/- 1-2 yrs fellowship = 8-10 yrs

Just some options to consider, especially considering your family situation.

 

[smkennisher]

Ok well based on your age - it may be better for you to just do the MD portion with the aim of going into psychiatry. You'd of course want to get involved with as much research as you can during med school. It's not that it would be impossible for you to get into a MD/PhD program (as long as your stats are up to par, etc, etc), but at this point in your life you'd really want to evaluate the length of training required to attain your career goals (assuming you have all the proper pre-reqs finished already):

MD/PhD: 8-10 yrs med school/PhD + 4 yrs psychiatry residency +/- 1-2 yrs fellowship = ~12-16 yrs
MD: 4 yrs med school + 4 yrs psychiatry residency +/- 1-2 yrs fellowship = 8-10 yrs

Just some options to consider, especially considering your family situation.

Makes sense. I could always do research with the MD. And also I'd be saving a ton of time. Thanks for the advice. Any thoughts on the state of psychiatry and psychiatry residencies nowadays?

 

[eteshoe]

Makes sense. I could always do research with the MD. And also I'd be saving a ton of time. Thanks for the advice. Any thoughts on the state of psychiatry and psychiatry residencies nowadays?

No problem. From the few friends I have that went into psychiatry, they seem to really enjoy it. I, of course, can't really comment on the state of residencies nowadays since I only have a cursory interest in it (I'm going for hem/onc). But you can find more answers if you ask your question on the psychiatry forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/psychiatry.44/

 

[smkennisher]

No problem. From the few friends I have that went into psychiatry, they seem to really enjoy it. I, of course, can't really comment on the state of residencies nowadays since I only have a cursory interest in it (I'm going for hem/onc). But you can find more answers if you ask your question on the psychiatry forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/psychiatry.44/

Right. Thanks.

So I gather that different med schools have different prereqs. But I think I still fall short of the standard ones. For example, I've taken a year of biology, and one calc class, but no organic or inorganic chem, and no biochem. I had a physics course, but it was actually focused on astronomy and astrophysics rather than classical Newtonian physics.

My background is basically in social science and psychology rather than natural sciences. Where do you suggest I begin? Should I try to take some of these classes in the forthcoming year as I work on doing the MCAT and apply to med schools for 2017?

 

[nonamesleft]

Right. Thanks.

So I gather that different med schools have different prereqs. But I think I still fall short of the standard ones. For example, I've taken a year of biology, and one calc class, but no organic or inorganic chem, and no biochem. I had a physics course, but it was actually focused on astronomy and astrophysics rather than classical Newtonian physics.

My background is basically in social science and psychology rather than natural sciences. Where do you suggest I begin? Should I try to take some of these classes in the forthcoming year as I work on doing the MCAT and apply to med schools for 2017?

Orgo, biochem, inorganic, gen chem, and physics will likely all help with MCAT studying.. They are typically first and second year university classes, so you end up taking them before studying/taking the MCAT.

 

[smkennisher]

Orgo, biochem, inorganic, gen chem, and physics will likely all help with MCAT studying.. They are typically first and second year university classes, so you end up taking them before studying/taking the MCAT.

So would they be possible to do this coming academic year, while I work, do the MCAT, and apply to schools? Or is this going to be more of a two year project?

 

[eteshoe]

So would they be possible to do this coming academic year, while I work, do the MCAT, and apply to schools? Or is this going to be more of a two year project?

Think of it as a two year project. You have to take the time to do things right and shadow a ton of doctors to make sure you are ready to go down this path.

Also you may want to change you profile pic to protect your anonymity.

 

[smkennisher]

Think of it as a two year project. You have to take the time to do things right and shadow a ton of doctors to make sure you are ready to go down this path.

Also you may want to change you profile pic to protect your anonymity.

Got it. Any protocols for shadowing? Just call docs up and ask?

 

[eteshoe]

Got it. Any protocols for shadowing? Just call docs up and ask?

Cold call/email, call in favors, etc - no defined protocol to shadowing

 

[smkennisher]

Cold call/email, call in favors, etc - no defined protocol to shadowing

Ok, great. Thanks!

Being that I want to get into research, if I pursue the MD, I will be able to get involved in research during med school, right?

And at what stage would I pursue research further? During a fellowship after residency? I get the sense that residency is a fully clinical experience.

 

[eteshoe]

Ok, great. Thanks!

Being that I want to get into research, if I pursue the MD, I will be able to get involved in research during med school, right?

And at what stage would I pursue research further? During a fellowship after residency? I get the sense that residency is a fully clinical experience.

1. Yup, you can get involved in research during med school as an MD (I'm not quite sure what the opportunities are like on the DO side)
2. Usually towards the latter end of your residency (I would imagine somewhat limited) and/or during fellowship is what I've heard.

 

[nonamesleft]

Ok, great. Thanks!

Being that I want to get into research, if I pursue the MD, I will be able to get involved in research during med school, right?

And at what stage would I pursue research further? During a fellowship after residency? I get the sense that residency is a fully clinical experience.

Depending on where you get in, there are summer research opportunities before MS1, and between MS1 and MS2. Some people will also do research during MS3 or as MS4 electives. There are also programs with an extra year built in (ex. CCLCM, HST - don't remember if this is 5 years, or there's just extra research built in) or with project requirements (ex. Stanford scholarly concentrations, Duke scholarly experience). Many schools will also have honors programs.

 

[smkennisher]

Great, thanks!

I've had one year of biology without labs. Where should I start with taking prerequisite courses?