Nontrads that made it to medical school or are already physicians, is it worth it?

[psyche108]

Hey guys, I am still in college now, but I most likely will end up as a nontraditional student (assuming I decide to continue on the premed path). I was wondering for medical students or physicians that were non-traditional students, was it worth it? Do you like your career? One thing I constantly read on here is that one of the benefits of being nontraditional is that you have more perspective on what jobs are like, so they are less likely to become jaded or frustrated when faced with the problems of the medical system?

What was your career before medical school/being a doctor and how did you feel about it, and what is it like being in medical school or being an actual doctor? How old were you? Do you think it was worth it to go through the path? What specialty are you if you're a doctor or what specialty are you considering?

Just some background info on me, I'm especially interested in mental health, which is why I am considering medical school for psychiatry. I'm still interested in physical health, but I feel that psychiatry interests me more. It's either that or become a UX (user experience) designer (which I realize is a very random choice and a totally different career path for someone interested in healthcare).

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[TallPreMed]

I work in healthcare now and find it extremely rewarding, so I can only imagine how I am going to enjoy being a physician. Not accepted yet and have a ways to go, but healthcare is my passion and what I see myself doing for the rest of my life.

 

[Law2Doc]

I cringe whenever anyone asks if medicine was "worth it". "Worth it" is a barbed question because it's a nebulous concept, and what one person values as worth might not be another's. If you are talking financial sense (and unfortunately many premeds do), then for a lot of us no-- it's a lot of years of lost high income, raises, bonuses during which time many of us instead incurred debt, instead of banking paychecks and investing.

"Worth it" also connotes a temporary hardship, but after which point there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Medicine is not like that-- it's a lot of hard work, followed by more hard work. The tunnel is endless. You'll still be expected to work nights and weekends and holidays long after med school. In particular, as a nontrad, you possibly won't get to a point X after your training where you get to cush. But it's all about the journey, not the destination.

So the real question shouldn't be anything about worth, it's should be whether people enjoy their jobs, feel they are more professionally satisfied after going down this road (and presumably somehow you are going to try and extrapolate that to yourself). I sure do, but IMHO that's pretty irrelevant to you because you neither started from where I did nor do you have the same mindset. What gets me going won't be the same for you.

So I am afraid "is it worth it" is not a useful inquiry, probably not the right inquiry, and something youll have to decide for yourself.

 

[TallPreMed]

I cringe whenever anyone asks if medicine was "worth it". "Worth it" is a barbed question because it's a nebulous concept, and what one person values as worth might not be another's. If you are talking financial sense (and unfortunately many premeds do), then for a lot of us no-- it's a lot of years of lost high income, raises, bonuses during which time many of us instead incurred debt, instead of banking paychecks and investing.

"Worth it" also connotes a temporary hardship, but after which point there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Medicine is not like that-- it's a lot of hard work, followed by more hard work. The tunnel is endless. You'll still be expected to work nights and weekends and holidays long after med school. In particular, as a nontrad, you possibly won't get to a point X after your training where you get to cush. But it's all about the journey, not the destination.

So the real question shouldn't be anything about worth, it's should be whether people enjoy their jobs, feel they are more professionally satisfied after going down this road (and presumably somehow you are going to try and extrapolate that to yourself). I sure do, but IMHO that's pretty irrelevant to you because you neither started from where I did nor do you have the same mindset. What gets me going won't be the same for you.

So I am afraid "is it worth it" is not a useful inquiry, probably not the right inquiry, and something youll have to decide for yourself.

Agree with this 100%
I'm not even 3 years post college graduation and I make double what my peers do who graduated with the same degree that I did. I make 20k more than my fiancé who has 3 years on me and work roughly 30-36 hours a week. I love what I do, and my company is outstanding, but I'm going to give up all of that to put myself in more debt and make less as a resident than what I make now. But to me it is definitely "worth it"

 

[QofQuimica]

Agree w/ L2D.

OP, no one here can tell you what you want to be when you grow up. I would argue that if you have to ask the question, then the answer, at least for right now, at least for you, is a resounding no. This could be because you have decided subconsciously that medicine isn't worth it for yourself, or it could be because you haven't done enough due diligence to figure out the answer. If it's the latter, I suggest that you spend some time in a health care setting shadowing/volunteering/working so that you can gain some practical experience with the system and see what it's like working in it. This will help you decide whether medicine is worth it for YOU.

 

[Lawgiver]

Id rather spend 100 hours a week reading, studying, stressing, crying, worrying, and enjoying science than doing any of the previous laundry list of numbing jobs I've had. Its a privilege to to able to spend your time learning.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hey guys, I am still in college now, but I most likely will end up as a nontraditional student (assuming I decide to continue on the premed path). I was wondering for medical students or physicians that were non-traditional students, was it worth it? Do you like your career? One thing I constantly read on here is that one of the benefits of being nontraditional is that you have more perspective on what jobs are like, so they are less likely to become jaded or frustrated when faced with the problems of the medical system?

What was your career before medical school/being a doctor and how did you feel about it, and what is it like being in medical school or being an actual doctor? How old were you? Do you think it was worth it to go through the path? What specialty are you if you're a doctor or what specialty are you considering?

Just some background info on me, I'm especially interested in mental health, which is why I am considering medical school for psychiatry. I'm still interested in physical health, but I feel that psychiatry interests me more. It's either that or become a UX (user experience) designer (which I realize is a very random choice and a totally different career path for someone interested in healthcare).

If you let others decide if it is "worth it" for you, then for you it's not worth it. Med school is like running a marathon that has people trying to run over you along the way. Most people would say it was nuts, but for a certain type of person it's a dream and passion and they could care less what anyone else thinks or what obstacles get in the way. If that's not you, consider if you would like something else better.

As far a going into psychiatry, you might want to look into what psychiatrists actually do as a majority of their career. Get a job as a psych tech in a psychiatric unit for a year and see if you enjoy those types of patients/work and get to know the psychiatrists so they let you shadow them. Becoming a psychiatric nurse, social worker, etc is much easier and you can work with the same population.

All the best

 

[Giovanotto]

Agree with this 100%
I'm not even 3 years post college graduation and I make double what my peers do who graduated with the same degree that I did. I make 20k more than my fiancé who has 3 years on me and work roughly 30-36 hours a week. I love what I do, and my company is outstanding, but I'm going to give up all of that to put myself in more debt and make less as a resident than what I make now. But to me it is definitely "worth it"

Hmmmm, where can I send in my resume?

 

[DrMidlife]

Around mid-November of M4 year (2 mos ago) it started feeling worth it pretty often. Prior to that it felt worth it on occasion, with long stretches of it not being at all worth it. I expect it to also be completely not worth it for about 6-18 months starting next July. After that I expect it to be occasionally worth it until I finish residency, and then as worth it as I choose to make it.

 

[futuremdforme]

The economics are not that good. If you're smart enough for med school you're smart enough to do six figures in a lot of industries. This drives the cost of medical education to low seven figures.

Good reasons to go into medicine are: idealism, intellectual challenge, identity claims.

Yeah, a lot of people don't see the opportunity cost. They compare to "average salary X years after graduation" but realistically, people who can do medicine are not going to be average.

I gave up a lot but I'm gaining a lot too. Knowledge, a better application of my skills and interest, and hopefully once I actually can treat people, some satisfaction at improving people's lives in some way.

If you're in college, why do you say you'll be a non-trad? It's a lot harder and if you really are interested in medicine, it's worth doing that work now, and it won't hurt you if you decide to go into UX after all.

 

[ghostman]

Around mid-November of M4 year (2 mos ago) it started feeling worth it pretty often. Prior to that it felt worth it on occasion, with long stretches of it not being at all worth it. I expect it to also be completely not worth it for about 6-18 months starting next July. After that I expect it to be occasionally worth it until I finish residency, and then as worth it as I choose to make it.

This is so true. I had a great career, made a decent salary, had a comfortable savings account, ate healthy, went to the gym, slept a good night's sleep. Throughout most of medical school, I felt it was not worth it. Needless to say, I had no salary, my savings is nearly non-existent, my diet is based on cafeteria food based on whatever schedule my rotation requires, I go to the gym rarely because I'm too tired and my sleep schedule fluctuates. As a MS4 now, things have become more relaxed, things have improved and I know I will soon have a salary again (although it'll be a fraction of what I used to make). But this is a rest stop. Ask me again in 5 years, and again in 10 years.

 

[deleted480308]

It's significantly harder than most people say it is....academically, health wise, family wise. The opporunity cost is crushing.

We made a family decision to do it and we're still in agreement that it was the right call, but it's had far more negatives than we anticipated.

 

[Kr#36]

It's significantly harder than most people say it is....academically, health wise, family wise. The opporunity cost is crushing.

We made a family decision to do it and we're still in agreement that it was the right call, but it's had far more negatives than we anticipated.

I would be interested to hear what specifically has been more difficult than you expected and also why you and your family feel it was still the right call at the same time?

 

[DrMidlife]

It's significantly harder than most people say it is....academically, health wise, family wise. The opporunity cost is crushing.

We made a family decision to do it and we're still in agreement that it was the right call, but it's had far more negatives than we anticipated.

This.

There wasn't much overlap between what I thought I was getting into vs. what I was actually getting into.

Consider this in the context of my prior career in which I made **** tons of money making well-researched decisions on incomplete, changing data, determining the long term livelihoods of companies and people. Making good rational decisions on the best facts I could gather, with consistency and professionalism in priorities and judgment, was what I did for a LIVING.

Two things, then.
1. The decision to do med school was almost entirely independent from what makes med school worth it, and from the frequency of worth-it-ness, for me.
2. I have no idea what I'd do differently as a 45 year old premed that would improve the worth-it-ness, or convince me not to go to med school. My ongoing plan B of doing grad work in economics is every bit as much of an unknown now as med school was then.

This is corny, but the Goethe quote about boldness and commitment (google "goethe boldness commitment") is exactly what happened for me. What Goethe doesn't get into is how that boldness and commitment is a letting go of control, which is less enjoyable the older we get and the more responsibilities we have.

I suggest that anticipation/fear of regret is a permanent resident of the con side of every pros/cons list for every big kid decision you make. I don't have kids or a spouse, so for me, regret is thing I can choose to feel or not. I wouldn't be taking this kind of risk with family responsibilities, and I am humbled by the commitment of my classmates and colleagues who did.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Anecdote re: the ability to just make an effing decision already. In my prior career it was common, when interviewing engineers who wanted to move into management, to find that they would make very good pro/con lists for a "what would you do" question without actually being able to ever say what they would actually do.

My colleagues and I, in these situations, would coax, and push, and be as patient as was reasonable.

And if that didn't work, we'd then ask "paper or plastic?"

Because the ability to make a choice under pressure with acceptance of responsibility for consequences was the thing we needed to see. Not the ability to perfectly enumerate the considerations.

 

[68PGunner]

This question is really all about relativity, depending on your prior work experience. For example, my job in he US Army involves me literally living like a dog out in the middle of nowhere and being away from my family for about 5-6 months in year. So, I personally think it's worth it to be paid at least 200k a year with job security until my retirement age just to treat patients and learn about medicine. Finally, it's also about the sacrifices that you need to make in order to become a physician. A lot of physicians nowadays come out of residency with 300-400k in loan. In my personal situation, I will come out of medical school with zero loan. Therefore, the decision to become a physician is a no brainer.

 

[Mad Jack]

It has been less difficult than I imagined, but was far worse on me emotionally than I ever thought possible in year one. I don't know if it's worth it yet- I certainly don't feel this overwhelming "this is the right choice for sure" feeling on a regular basis. Really though, there's no turning back, so I've just gotta go forward and hope that when I reach the end it'll have all been worth it.

 

[ChE04]

This is a question I don't think I personally will be able to answer until ~6 months after I graduate residency. I can say that I have greatly enjoyed it at times, and at other times have had great difficulty in forcing myself to get out of bed. Intern year starts in July and I'm looking forward to that with about 20% excitement and 80% dread.

 

[pageantry]

It has been less difficult than I imagined, but was far worse on me emotionally than I ever thought possible in year one. I don't know if it's worth it yet- I certainly don't feel this overwhelming "this is the right choice for sure" feeling on a regular basis. Really though, there's no turning back, so I've just gotta go forward and hope that when I reach the end it'll have all been worth it.

Can I ask what made it emotionally difficult?

 

[Mad Jack]

Can I ask what made it emotionally difficult?

It's just stressful in a way that is difficult to describe, and made moreso by the fact that if I were to fail out, I'd be financially ruined and have no job to go back to. That's a lot of pressure, but as the semesters went on, I realized I could handle it and the stress faded a bit.

 

[DrMidlife]

It's just stressful in a way that is difficult to describe, and made moreso by the fact that if I were to fail out, I'd be financially ruined and have no job to go back to. That's a lot of pressure, but as the semesters went on, I realized I could handle it and the stress faded a bit.

Let me take a shot at describing the pressure/emotion.

Faculty will describe students as being "a bunch of little lawyers" in students' relentless obsession with points. This happens in undergrad, but the stakes are way lower in undergrad & the flowing pile of new content/requirements is much MUCH higher in med school.

So any given student is looking at a syllabus requirement & wants to be very clear about what that requirement means. Thus clarifying questions, which in the real world would be totally paranoid, are constant. Times maybe 150 students times maybe 6 course directors. Add a multiplier for every piece of useful, simplifying info circulating among the students which isn't public knowledge thus isn't known by all students.

Any given student can be in the bottom half of any given course with fear levels inversely proportional to their most recent exam grade's proximity to zero.

Any given student is going into any given final exam knowing their score has to be above X or there will be a nonspecific trainwreck.

Any given student has a varying level of direct personal knowledge of what exactly happened with that one guy who isn't in the class any more and how relevant that missing guy's own personal hell is to the student's situation. The trainwrecks become less nonspecific as consequences become known.

Maybe 3-4 times during the semester there will be an announcement changing the contractual agreement in the syllabus, maybe a change in the content on an upcoming exam, maybe a change in the exam date. At first, any given student feels visceral liquefaction in coming to grips with what the change means or doesn't mean. Some student will object to an apparent life-saving exam postponement with "but I have to be at a wedding that day" which only increases the general uncertainty about the change (what if the change is changed back?!?). Those not worried about a wedding feel scorn for the wedding-challenged but the wedding-challenged has completely fresh and legitimate panic now.

Half the class is in the bottom half of the class at any given time. Nobody expected to ever be there because getting into med school is such a blessing of academic prowess.

Any given student facing the daily flowing pile of content to be digested goes to battle with his/her own demons, regularly, as there are always exactly ninety million other things that would be more interesting and/rewarding to do than more and more and more studying. Those who are highly disciplined and never fail to approach studying with professional zeal are not exempt from this battle. By 2nd year, the scars of this battle are visible in weight gain, weight loss, skin rashes, asthma, blank affect, substance use, financial consequences from retail therapy, competitive power lifting, etc. By 2nd year, nobody hesitates to name their antidepressant, but they still won't admit they have an adderall stash.

Any given student is so thoroughly obsessed with their own personal situation and their own personal coping strategy that when indulging an impulse to be helpful to another student it often resembles a verbal assault or time share marketing scheme.

(I had a hard time with almost all of it. I don't have any classmates who would describe it as no big deal. YMMV.)

 

[pageantry]

It's just stressful in a way that is difficult to describe, and made moreso by the fact that if I were to fail out, I'd be financially ruined and have no job to go back to. That's a lot of pressure, but as the semesters went on, I realized I could handle it and the stress faded a bit.

I keep hearing things like this and it worries me because most people can't really explain it.

I worry about having a sort of post-partum depression: my life is about to be consumed and it will never be the same again.

My goal right now is to try eat it before it eats me.

 

[pageantry]

Let me take a shot at describing the pressure/emotion.

Man, this is raw.

Is there any cure?

 

[DrMidlife]

Man, this is raw.

Is there any cure?

4th year.

 

[deleted480308]

Man, this is raw.

Is there any cure?

matching

 

[pageantry]

matching

How about a vaccine??
Don't say "not going to medical school."

 

[DrMidlife]

How about a vaccine??
Don't say "not going to medical school."

I think power lifting had a prophylactic effect for a lot of my classmates. Male & female. Like a dozen of 'em.

Marathon training during 1st & 2nd year seemed helpful. Except for that one guy who got progressively more agitated.

Jesus seemed to work for some.

Parenthood looked like the least helpful thing.

Bambi-like obeisance and deferring all decisions to the parents seemed to be stress-relieving, but they screwed themselves for next year.

I think the ideal would be to have a hologram of my future self to talk to, regularly.

 

[Gfliptastic]

I am not going to answer the question asked for you, but I WILL relate how so many people have NO IDEA how much documentation is an evolving and never-going-to-change aspect there is to being a physician. Document, document, document! Inpatient or outpatient. You did not write it down it did not happen in the legal-medical complex.

Allow me to explain. You want to see a patient? Ok, great. Now document everything that happened. You want to call them to follow up? Document. Talk to a family member (when you update them if they are inpatient). Document. Your nurse think your patient is "not looking good", even if you go into the room and see a perfectly stable patient, go in the chart, write about the encounter. Because heaven forbid the patient DOES tank 25 minutes later and you didn't document. You can't say, "Well he/she was clinically stable 25 minutes ago."

It probably takes 2x as long to write the note on a patient encounter than it does for you to see & examine the patient. You might get quicker at it over time, but guess what you'll be expected to see even more patients (intern vs. resident vs. attending). Like Law2Doc described so perfectly, it doesn't end. It's not like, "Oh once I'm a resident it gets easier" or "Once I'm an attending, I'm cruising".

Your motivations are your own thing, but the constant and common denominator to EVERYONE who is going to be a physician is the sheer amount of documentation required of you. You are also a stenographer and need to "show your work" for everything!

 

[pageantry]

I think power lifting had a prophylactic effect for a lot of my classmates. Male & female. Like a dozen of 'em.

Marathon training during 1st & 2nd year seemed helpful. Except for that one guy who got progressively more agitated.

Jesus seemed to work for some.

Parenthood looked like the least helpful thing.

Bambi-like obeisance and deferring all decisions to the parents seemed to be stress-relieving, but they screwed themselves for next year.

I think the ideal would be to have a hologram of my future self to talk to, regularly.

Before I started my post-bacc, when my dad died and I became homeless in the NYC winter, I slept in my office and used the gym for a shower, so I worked out a TON. Figured I'd kill two birds with one stone by staying sanitary also managing the grief, sanity, etc.

Anyway, I'm pleased to report it didn't work at all, so I won't have to waste ANY time on a bs exercise habit in medical school.

 

[gracie369]

4th year.

4th year is just a calm before the storm.

 

[gracie369]

I keep hearing things like this and it worries me because most people can't really explain it.

People can't put their finger on it because you are being mind fkd in every possible way during med school and especially residency. I call it death by 1000 cuts. You probably shouldn't be reading this since you haven't even started yet.

 

[DrMidlife]

4th year is just a calm before the storm.

understood, but i'm gonna enjoy every minute of it

 

[atomi]

4th year.

LOL. Fail.

4th year is a kind of purgatory. It's not enjoyable. It's not miserable. And your life is far from guaranteed.

The "cure" is becoming board certified. Until then, your entire career and $300,000 education can go up in smoke at a moment's notice if you fail the wrong exam or piss the wrong person off. Med students think it's everything is alright once you match. Nope, out of the fire into the frying pan. Until you graduate residency and ideally are board certified you have absolutely zero job security. And that's unnerving given what you've done to get that far.

 

[Shjanzey]

36 yo M2 and former Software Engineer. Love med school. I wish I had done this sooner. Year 2 is a slog, but I still enjoy it...maybe not the hours at times but the challenge really keeps me engaged and I love what I am learning.

I hated my former career so maybe that is why I appreciate every day so much. I can't say how it will be for you though.

 

[DrMidlife]

LOL. Fail.

4th year is a kind of purgatory. It's not enjoyable. It's not miserable. And your life is far from guaranteed..

LOL. Sorry your 4th year wasn't fun.

Is there something I missed where there's some guarantee of anything along this path? BC shields you from meaningful use, EMR/ICD conversions, et al? Suckage is inherent in everything. The message I could take is that "security" is the foundation of "worth it" for some.

Forgot to mention one thing in my long attempt above to enumerate the emotional toll of med school: trying to have meaningful discussions w/classmates is uncomfortably similar to these SDN blind men describing elephant "nuh uh" threads.

 

[QofQuimica]

The "cure" is becoming board certified. Until then, your entire career and $300,000 education can go up in smoke at a moment's notice if you fail the wrong exam or piss the wrong person off. Med students think it's everything is alright once you match. Nope, out of the fire into the frying pan. Until you graduate residency and ideally are board certified you have absolutely zero job security. And that's unnerving given what you've done to get that far.

Nope, board certification isn't the "cure" for anything either. I'm BC, and last summer, I, along with several of my colleagues, got an unceremonious three months' notice that we either had to transfer back to the Mothership or be laid off by the university entirely. Some of us transferred, and 0thers changed employers. To say that making an unanticipated last minute move to a new city was highly inconvenient is the understatement of the year. And I'm the only one of the transferees who didn't have a house/kids/spouse in the picture to be worried about. Actually, at the time the announcement was made, I wasn't BC yet. I was in the middle of studying for my boards, which I took ONE WEEK AFTER making said unanticipated move. Talk about stressful....

On the bright side, I passed the boards, survived the move, and am now BC in my new city, securely employed, living the life. Heck, it's been such a panacea in paradise that I'm quitting in a year to go back and do a fellowship.

I keep hearing things like this and it worries me because most people can't really explain it.

I worry about having a sort of post-partum depression: my life is about to be consumed and it will never be the same again.

My goal right now is to try eat it before it eats me.

My friend, there's no guarantee in this life, except that half a century or so from now, your time in it will be up. Not that you shouldn't do due diligence before making a major life decision. But at some point, a decision has to be made, and it has to be lived with, even knowing that it may not work out. Hey, do you really think the 50% of marriages that end in divorce were embarked upon by people who expected their vows to end before death parted them? Would you tell two young people in love not to get married just because your marriage ended in divorce? Even if you did, they wouldn't listen to you anyway. Just like you premeds wouldn't listen to any of us docs if we told you not to go into medicine. Everyone always thinks their individual situation is unique and different. They're both totally right and totally wrong about that.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Until you graduate residency and ideally are board certified you have absolutely zero job security. And that's unnerving given what you've done to get that far.

Agree with Q on this one. The "guaranteed lifetime employment" people spout about on SDN doesn't exist, it's a myth. Yes, you are more secure than a lot of careers. But there are no guarantees in life, and you'll meet plenty of doctors whose groups lose hospital contracts and have to let people go, and you'll meet more than a few doctors doing short term gigs while waiting for something more desirable to open up in the geography they seek. The notion that you'll get paid a pile of money and never have to job search again after you are boarded is a premed fairy tale -- but life isn't puppies and rainbows, even for docs.

 

[DrMikeP]

Agree with Q on this one. The "guaranteed lifetime employment" people spout about on SDN doesn't exist, it's a myth. Yes, you are more secure than a lot of careers. But there are no guarantees in life, and you'll meet plenty of doctors whose groups lose hospital contracts and have to let people go, and you'll meet more than a few doctors doing short term gigs while waiting for something more desirable to open up in the geography they seek. The notion that you'll get paid a pile of money and never have to job search again after you are boarded is a premed fairy tale -- but life isn't puppies and rainbows, even for docs.

Ditto... The docs at my hospital might have a job but due to some ummmm issues their salaries have been reduced to the 50th percentile of similar specialty docs in the area. Boarded or not made no difference.

 

[sandstone]

That's a reasonable question you're asking. I'm a married 4th year with two little kids, anxiously awaiting match day to see if I make it into ortho, with family med as my backup specialty. Is med school brutal and damn hard? for sure. Is it worth it? overall, yes. I had an awesome career beforehand, but also worked some pretty crappy jobs. I'm happy I've chosen this route, overall I've actually had a pretty enjoyable experience and don't feel like I've missed out on much in terms of family life. I have had to sacrifice pretty much all of my personal hobbies and social life, but that's okay, I know that stuff will come back again when I'm an attending. While parenthood makes school harder and vice versa, I feel that having kids has helped me do as well as I have because it helps me focus very well. When I get my relatively limited time to study compared to my peers, I STUDY. I don't goof off, I focus like a laser and get it done. I've enjoyed the material we've learned, which makes the studying feel a little more tolerable. Third and fourth years have been super fun overall, getting to talk to patients, do some procedures, feel a little closer to being a doctor. If I make it into ortho, I'll be so stoked, that's the coolest job in the world in my opinion.

Don't let other people's negativity deter you. I've noticed a large portion of my classmates are very neurotic and negative people who would probably be whiny and unhappy doing anything. However, med school is really harder than I ever imagined, and there have been plenty of times where I question what the hell I've done with my life. There's plenty of hardships besides the obvious difficulty of the course work that come with school that I did not anticipate that you really need to consider.
- finances. with a family, this has been a constant stressor. COA is calculated for single people. We live decent but frugally, but still have had to take max COA, and also borrow from family. Honestly, if we couldn't borrow from family, it just would not be possible financially. Of course the massive debt (probably will be around 400k) is pretty daunting.
- travelling for audition rotations for first half of fourth year. Being away from my wife and small kids, missing my youngest's first steps really sucked hard.
- being the clueless outsider in a new environment every month during rotations. It sucks feeling like a ******* most of the time and trying to fit in other people's work places.
- constant stress about match day. Especially now, it seriously takes everything I have to be present and not freak out with anxiety every day.

I'm sure there's others that I can't think of right now. Again, I'm happy to be here and feel grateful to have the opprotunity to be a doctor. Any specialty is far better than most jobs out there that people have to do every day. Now I just worry about what ortho residency will be like. With psych, you'll at least have a pretty chill residency. And it's a pretty cool field, I liked it a lot more than I thought I would. Be sure to keep a good attitude and maintain perspective. Check out some of my past posts for more advice and thoughts on being a non-trad in med school. Good luck with it all!

 

[pageantry]

My friend, there's no guarantee in this life, except that half a century or so from now, your time in it will be up. Not that you shouldn't do due diligence before making a major life decision. But at some point, a decision has to be made, and it has to be lived with, even knowing that it may not work out. Hey, do you really think the 50% of marriages that end in divorce were embarked upon by people who expected their vows to end before death parted them? Would you tell two young people in love not to get married just because your marriage ended in divorce? Even if you did, they wouldn't listen to you anyway. Just like you premeds wouldn't listen to any of us docs if we told you not to go into medicine. Everyone always thinks their individual situation is unique and different. They're both totally right and totally wrong about that.

I have three recurring nightmares: 1) I'm addicted to cigarettes, 2) I wake up with a full body tattoo, 3) I've gotten married. Each time I wake up like "whyyyyyy would I dooooOOOooo that to myself???"

I haven't had too many of those nightmares lately tho.

Commitment is ruff. And rougher when 95% of the people you see who go into medicine (or get married) seem to be having a pretty grim time. So, hell, I *do* listen to you docs.

But I also want to understand the complaints. I personally know three medical school drop-outs. One's complaints taught me not to do it for the money or godlike power (neither will ever be enough), the next taught me to stop whining about what I'm not and instead go become it, the last taught me about the danger of doing any long difficult project for the sake of being happy in the end.

So, from the very beginning I've kept saying, "Is this process making me better? Can I do this with a healthy heart?"

All I can say is, post-bacc was sometimes tough and sometimes seemed pointless, but I became a better person while doing it. Every day I worked on changing my life so that I could do what I was doing better. I didn't feel like a victim to the process. I don't plan to feel like a victim to medical school.

I'm doing it, but I do love to hear analysis of why it was so awful or what ideas and behaviors could have made it better. There are helpful lessons there. I have to believe it's possible that the things you guys experienced can help me make better choices along the way.


(I also know that with IBR and [with or without] PSLF, I don't ever have to be a victim to the process if I'm willing to drop out and teach kids ESL at a non-profit. So there's that.)

 

[JustPlainBill]

Is it worth it? I used to ponder that question every day --- I left a software engineering career that I had grown to despise the hard way -- laid off at age 40 after 17 years in the business -- in one afternoon I went from being able to provide a nice living for my wife and 2 pre-school age kids to not being able to afford a Happy Meal and having my 5 year old son ask,"Daddy, why are we poor?" when we were getting gas for the lawn mower --- I kinda did the toe-in-the-water routine -- first I wanted to be a rad tech, then a PT, then a PA then a chiropractor and finally just went for it -- all of this evolved as I was working 3 part time jobs and getting my prereqs/MCAT out of the way -- it sucked by the way --- I also considered being in LE/EMS/firefighting -- thought about the military as there was a nice little war going on but I was too old with no prior service ---

By the grace of God, I get accepted on my first try with a low GPA but 4.0 in the prereqs and a mediocre MCAT score (class average 28, I had 25) -- back then I believed that people from my background weren't doctors, it was for those of special knowledge and training -- with that mindset, I let the Dean of Academics get inside my head on day one and I'm still shaking that to this day-- I had zero confidence in my ability and daily have to tell myself that there isn't something I'm missing lurking around the corner ---

I moved away from my family for 3 years, underwent a hellish residency where I really didn't learn much and was physically and verbally abused by faculty -- yes, I said physically --- but in my mind, it was either make it through or there was nothing to come home to -- my family would be hearing,"Attention Wal Mart Shoppers" for a while and wearing hand me downs --- it sucked.

But I'm out now, seeing about 17 to 20 patients per day and building a practice -- was it worth it --- well ---

-- Was it worth it for the privilege of being there when a human being takes their first breath and cries and begins this journey we call life?
-- Was it worth it to be there and hear the lungs go silent and the heart beat it last few beats as someone departs into eternity?
-- Was it worth it to be there when you have to deliver the news that things look grim and ride the emotional roller coaster with a patient you've come to enjoy having on your panel?
-- Was it worth it to have a grandma look you in the face and tell you that she wants your opinion because you're her "doctor" in spite of what the gyn/onc specialist says - does she need this surgery/

yeah, the days are long, you're never good enough/prepared enough/competent enough, patient's are demanding and there are days when it looks so tempting to just hop in the Jeep, grab a 5th of Jack, and drive out in the woods and watch the freakin' squirrels ---

to me, my worst day as a physician is monumentally better than my best day as an engineer -- I really can't see myself doing anything else --- I do love what I do and wish I had believed enough in myself to do this at a younger age ----

 

[pageantry]

@JustPlainBill, this is everything I needed to hear.

 

[JustPlainBill]

@JustPlainBill, this is everything I needed to hear.

Glad I could help -- PM if you need to ---

 

[Shjanzey]

Is it worth it? I used to ponder that question every day --- I left a software engineering career that I had grown to despise the hard way -- laid off at age 40 after 17 years in the business -- in one afternoon I went from being able to provide a nice living for my wife and 2 pre-school age kids to not being able to afford a Happy Meal and having my 5 year old son ask,"Daddy, why are we poor?" when we were getting gas for the lawn mower --- I kinda did the toe-in-the-water routine -- first I wanted to be a rad tech, then a PT, then a PA then a chiropractor and finally just went for it -- all of this evolved as I was working 3 part time jobs and getting my prereqs/MCAT out of the way -- it sucked by the way --- I also considered being in LE/EMS/firefighting -- thought about the military as there was a nice little war going on but I was too old with no prior service ---

By the grace of God, I get accepted on my first try with a low GPA but 4.0 in the prereqs and a mediocre MCAT score (class average 28, I had 25) -- back then I believed that people from my background weren't doctors, it was for those of special knowledge and training -- with that mindset, I let the Dean of Academics get inside my head on day one and I'm still shaking that to this day-- I had zero confidence in my ability and daily have to tell myself that there isn't something I'm missing lurking around the corner ---

I moved away from my family for 3 years, underwent a hellish residency where I really didn't learn much and was physically and verbally abused by faculty -- yes, I said physically --- but in my mind, it was either make it through or there was nothing to come home to -- my family would be hearing,"Attention Wal Mart Shoppers" for a while and wearing hand me downs --- it sucked.

But I'm out now, seeing about 17 to 20 patients per day and building a practice -- was it worth it --- well ---

-- Was it worth it for the privilege of being there when a human being takes their first breath and cries and begins this journey we call life?
-- Was it worth it to be there and hear the lungs go silent and the heart beat it last few beats as someone departs into eternity?
-- Was it worth it to be there when you have to deliver the news that things look grim and ride the emotional roller coaster with a patient you've come to enjoy having on your panel?
-- Was it worth it to have a grandma look you in the face and tell you that she wants your opinion because you're her "doctor" in spite of what the gyn/onc specialist says - does she need this surgery/

yeah, the days are long, you're never good enough/prepared enough/competent enough, patient's are demanding and there are days when it looks so tempting to just hop in the Jeep, grab a 5th of Jack, and drive out in the woods and watch the freakin' squirrels ---

to me, my worst day as a physician is monumentally better than my best day as an engineer -- I really can't see myself doing anything else --- I do love what I do and wish I had believed enough in myself to do this at a younger age ----

Wow, this sounds like it could have been written by me. I'm not quite to residency yet, but the backstory is spot on. Kudos to you for seeing it through and I think I understand that internal fire that has pushed you through those horrible times during training. Your post has definitely reminded me of why I am putting in all these hours. Thanks

 

[JustPlainBill]

Wow, this sounds like it could have been written by me. I'm not quite to residency yet, but the backstory is spot on. Kudos to you for seeing it through and I think I understand that internal fire that has pushed you through those horrible times during training. Your post has definitely reminded me of why I am putting in all these hours. Thanks

I don't often tell this part of the tale ---

So one of the "good" jobs I had during my premed taking prereqs days was as an overnight stocker at Wal-mart -- it was good in the sense that I got 40 hours a week, employee discounts (which put tires on the car that we couldn't afford otherwise) and benefits at 90 days with steady work --- it sucked because I had to work nights, it was quiet and left me time to consider my fate --

So one night, I was detailed to the canned goods aisle -- has the tomato sauce, tomato paste, canned beans, etc. -- and I'm on my knees stocking the smallest cans (kind that you can wrap your hand around) of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- I'm not a small guy and just about the time I'd get the cans set, as I'm extracting my hand from the shelf, I'd knock some over and have to repair that side -- while doing that, I'd knock over others -- I must've spent 15 minutes on this one part of the shelf -- it's about 1:30 in the morning, post break and here I am ----

Some teenagers who are out and about on a Friday night walk by and observe this --- and they start making snarky comments about the "old man" and mutter "loser" and certain other things ---

I maintained game face until they left, but I'm thinking," Here I am, a 40 year old, degreed engineer with 17 years of experience who actually laid in, software wise, the SS7 protocols from Bell Labs that became the backbone of STPs/SCPs and the signaling network that morphed into what we now call the internet and I can't afford to buy my kids a toy they want, take my wife out for pizza and now I've got teenagers making fun of me and I can't say anything -- I can't even stock tomato paste right" ----

it was rough --

2 years later I'm in med school studying and it's getting rough -- multiple exams, practicals, etc. --- and I remembered the evening at Wal-Mart mentioned above -- so I marched my happy self down to the local Walmart and picked up a can of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- and put it on my study desk to remind myself that things are never as bad as that night -- I had my professors sign that freakin can and I'm putting it up in a shadow box in my office as a reminder ---

King David had a trophy room -- that can is one element in my trophy room ----

Find something to help you focus and drive on --- Find an excuse to win -- KEEP GOING --- if you don't get it right, you do it again -- don't quit

 

[futuremdforme]

I don't often tell this part of the tale ---

So one of the "good" jobs I had during my premed taking prereqs days was as an overnight stocker at Wal-mart -- it was good in the sense that I got 40 hours a week, employee discounts (which put tires on the car that we couldn't afford otherwise) and benefits at 90 days with steady work --- it sucked because I had to work nights, it was quiet and left me time to consider my fate --

So one night, I was detailed to the canned goods aisle -- has the tomato sauce, tomato paste, canned beans, etc. -- and I'm on my knees stocking the smallest cans (kind that you can wrap your hand around) of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- I'm not a small guy and just about the time I'd get the cans set, as I'm extracting my hand from the shelf, I'd knock some over and have to repair that side -- while doing that, I'd knock over others -- I must've spent 15 minutes on this one part of the shelf -- it's about 1:30 in the morning, post break and here I am ----

Some teenagers who are out and about on a Friday night walk by and observe this --- and they start making snarky comments about the "old man" and mutter "loser" and certain other things ---

I maintained game face until they left, but I'm thinking," Here I am, a 40 year old, degreed engineer with 17 years of experience who actually laid in, software wise, the SS7 protocols from Bell Labs that became the backbone of STPs/SCPs and the signaling network that morphed into what we now call the internet and I can't afford to buy my kids a toy they want, take my wife out for pizza and now I've got teenagers making fun of me and I can't say anything -- I can't even stock tomato paste right" ----

it was rough --

2 years later I'm in med school studying and it's getting rough -- multiple exams, practicals, etc. --- and I remembered the evening at Wal-Mart mentioned above -- so I marched my happy self down to the local Walmart and picked up a can of Wal-mart brand tomato paste -- and put it on my study desk to remind myself that things are never as bad as that night -- I had my professors sign that freakin can and I'm putting it up in a shadow box in my office as a reminder ---

King David had a trophy room -- that can is one element in my trophy room ----

Find something to help you focus and drive on --- Find an excuse to win -- KEEP GOING --- if you don't get it right, you do it again -- don't quit

I love this story!

 

[DrMidlife]

Another worth-it-ness anecdote: as a premed and in the first 3 years of medical school, all but a few of my closest friends and family sort of faded into the background. I probably would too, in response to the seemingly desperate and/or delusional trainwreck-prone actions of any single childless woman around 40, stereotypified by a last-ditch match.com dating fiasco when the biological clock is ticking out, or "going back to school". Being supportive of that flavor of madness is a total minefield, and being dismissive of it could trigger a whole lot of drama. So a lot of people who have known me since childhood have been just missing for a bunch of years. And the ones that weren't missing put on their game face. Not sure whether to hope I'm gonna make it, or to hope I'll quit before the damage is total.

Now that's it's pretty clear I'll finish med school, and after getting too many residency interviews, as I'm running into old friends and family on the interview trail, there's relief on people's faces. And sometimes awe. Really: awe.

But what's really fun is the total flip flop of some folks, who avoided me like the plague for a long time, who now want medical advice, and want my opinions on sociopoliticohealthecon. Now people want me to write a book. If I'm gonna indulge some bitterness, um, you wouldn't need that book if you'd kept in touch with me even just on FB.

And of course it seals my forever love for the people who believed in me the whole time. Guess who gets taken out to dinner in the years to come...

 

[gyngyn]

The "cure" is becoming board certified. Until then, your entire career and $300,000 education can go up in smoke at a moment's notice if you fail the wrong exam or piss the wrong person off. Med students think it's everything is alright once you match. Nope, out of the fire into the frying pan. Until you graduate residency and ideally are board certified you have absolutely zero job security. And that's unnerving given what you've done to get that far.

Even being a board examiner is no cure when the condition is framed this way.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

As a person who is at the last 6 months of a critical care fellowship, pushing my eyeballs back into my head every evening and struggling to get up every morning, early as $%&^, I am happy. I was miserable in my previous career and while I am told that being an Attending is not much better, I can't picture myself doing anything else.

 

[Gfliptastic]

Some good stuff going in this thread. Mr. Hat I want to applaud your candor. I was nodding my head while reading why you changed careers too, and in essence I know basically every non-trad will be in a transition. I'm (un)fortunate to be single w/ no children at this point. I did catch a "barb" from the gal I am in the process of starting a relationship w/, since in our non-sober state on the town last night (for one of my RARE free nights) she point-blank asked me: "Why are you so old?" Me being now 38, her being 25.

And in the "traditional" pathway I probably would have married the gal I was dating before medical school and I'd probably be "age-appropriate" like my peers who have a house, spouse and some kids. But I'm not. I'm 38 w/ NO house, starting to date a 25 yo, NO kids, and a mountain of debt.

In retrospect, my regret isn't weighing me down. Knowing how much paperwork is involved in the process DOES weigh me down, but I feel that the "easy" road of my previous career and life would be so mind-numbingly hum-drum I still weigh the benefits vs. the drawbacks. And as opposed to the hypothetical LANDSLIDE I believed choosing medicine would be when I embarked on the path, it does only kinda squeak by narrowly w/ the hanging chad votes in FL affecting the overall Worth It decision.

When on night float and the nurse calls you at 0230 regarding a patient c/o stomach pain but because of her risk factors you order an EKG and see some T-wave inversions and the stat troponin you order shows a significant increase and you call the cardio fellow who ends up taking her to the cath lab for PCI, you think: "Hmmm, NEVER would have saved a life in my previous job." The pain of my decision does ease a bit.