Now there are 114 CRNA Schools in the USA

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BLADEMDA

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http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/07/26/Lourdes-College-to-move-to-university-status-in-fall.htmhttp://www.toledoblade.com/local/20...ege-to-move-to-university-status-in-fall.html

Even with the Job market being so tough for new graduates the CRNA mills continue to open across the USA. The AANA doesn't care about individual CRNAs it cares about the CRNA profession. This isn't a friendly environment for a newly graduating CRNA looking for a job.

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The AANA at this point is actually powerless to stop it. SRNA schools are huge money makers and its going to be impossible to get a hospital to shut them down.
Also, Hey Blade any input on how a CC fellowship helps with job opportunities?
 
If it comes to the point where there are much less CRNA jobs than there are applicants, which seems to be happening now, I would think less people will go into it. Right now, many of the younger nurses in the ICUs if asked, say that they want to become CRNAs and that's why they're doing ICU. This might change if the job markets gets really poor.
 
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If it comes to the point where there are much less CRNA jobs than there are applicants, which seems to be happening now, I would think less people will go into it. Right now, many of the younger nurses in the ICUs if asked, say that they want to become CRNAs and that's why they're doing ICU. This might change if the job markets gets really poor.


There are going to be lots of CRNAs working as ICU nurses in the near future at the rate they are cranking out graduates. Some of them will be getting a very expensive education and assuming a large amount of debt to go back to the same job they were doing before they went to school.

Even if anesthesiologists completely went away in this country, you still don't add very many CRNA jobs. Their logic on the number of grads they crank out is amusing. I like it because it makes it cheaper for me to hire new peope.
 
Blade:

I don't get this one. Don't some CRNA's have MBA's or JD's , what is their strategic thinking behind this idea?

1) More supply means lower quality to a degree (inevitably) and less bargaining power for CRNA's, and fewer good job opportunities since the jobs are not increasing at the same rates as schools. How would lower quality performing CRNA's help / or more grads competing for the same jobs help?

2) If the argument that anesthesiology is so easy that an MD is not "needed", then why wouldn't an employment entity simply use that argument and hire a new hungrier CRNA grad over an experienced CRNA at much lower prices. After all it's so easy that "providers" are interchangeable. Thus, the existing job security of CRNA's would worsen.

3) Perhaps there is a philosophical battle that the AANA is fighting to make anesthesiology a nursing field. However, that is not a battle I would fight if I were a CRNA. In this environment, an insurance company or government rationing board would not have a high priority on compensating a nursing field at the level of a "physician" field. Why anyone would want to fight this battle is beyond me in this cost cutting environment.
 
Blade:

I don't get this one. Don't some CRNA's have MBA's or JD's , what is their strategic thinking behind this idea?

1) More supply means lower quality to a degree (inevitably) and less bargaining power for CRNA's, and fewer good job opportunities since the jobs are not increasing at the same rates as schools. How would lower quality performing CRNA's help / or more grads competing for the same jobs help?

2) If the argument that anesthesiology is so easy that an MD is not "needed", then why wouldn't an employment entity simply use that argument and hire a new hungrier CRNA grad over an experienced CRNA at much lower prices. After all it's so easy that "providers" are interchangeable. Thus, the existing job security of CRNA's would worsen.

3) Perhaps there is a philosophical battle that the AANA is fighting to make anesthesiology a nursing field. However, that is not a battle I would fight if I were a CRNA. In this environment, an insurance company or government rationing board would not have a high priority on compensating a nursing field at the level of a "physician" field. Why anyone would want to fight this battle is beyond me in this cost cutting environment.


Some politics is local:

-Potential program directors who would love to transition from the stool to the desk.
-local university that would love the tuition dollars.
-local hospitals and anesthesia groups that would love to increase local CRNA supply thus depressing prices.

Some is global:

AANA would love an increase in CRNA supply, this will only chip away at MD only departments as the economic incentive favors ACT over MD only. AANA doesn't give a **** about the current generation of CRNAs, they are in it long term for the profession of nurse anesthesia. Not the best interests of nurse anesthetists.
 
Hmm, interesting.

Why would a CRNA under 40 with many years of work ahead want a part of this future where a few benefit for a few years at the costs of thousands in the near future ?

Why would they "support" this ? I still don't get that.


Some politics is local:

-Potential program directors who would love to transition from the stool to the desk.
-local university that would love the tuition dollars.
-local hospitals and anesthesia groups that would love to increase local CRNA supply thus depressing prices.

Some is global:

AANA would love an increase in CRNA supply, this will only chip away at MD only departments as the economic incentive favors ACT over MD only. AANA doesn't give a **** about the current generation of CRNAs, they are in it long term for the profession of nurse anesthesia. Not the best interests of nurse anesthetists.
 
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/20...ege-to-move-to-university-status-in-fall.html

Even with the Job market being so tough for new graduates the CRNA mills continue to open across the USA. The AANA doesn't care about individual CRNAs it cares about the CRNA profession. This isn't a friendly environment for a newly graduating CRNA looking for a job.

I don't think militant CRNAs understand the commotion they have created in the field of anesthesia. True, there are very senior, experienced CRNAs working at my institution. Some are very bright and truly appreciate the field. But the new grad CRNA are strikingly different. They seem to be much more apathetic, unskilled, and undereducated. I hear surgeons yelling at them through the OR hallways.

One the other side of the spectrum, the new breed anesthesiologists are becoming much stronger. They make it known to their patients that they are physicians first, anesthesiologists second. The residents I work with practically kill themselves to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists. It's almost as though knowing there are militant CRNA out there provides an unprecedented surge of motivation to excel.

It was always a battle, but when that absurd CRNA study came out last year, it became a war. I don't think CRNAs could have hurt themselves any worse. The CRNA funded study did nothing to improve their stance in the healthcare world. However, it created a toxic atmosphere where anesthesiologist grew true hatred for CRNAs because of the betrayal they felt.

I see the near future as being an increasing bright one for anesthesiologists. As CRNA mills keep churning incompetent CRNAs, they will make the CRNA profession as a whole look bad. Conversely, the newly motivated, highly skilled anesthesiologists will monopolize their procedures and provide true value to the hospital and surgeons. Once the older lazier incompetent "MDAs" start to retire, the field will forever be changed.

So I say the easiest way to fix to the problem is to exceed in your residency and learn as much as you can.

Evolution will do the rest.


 
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I don't think militant CRNAs understand the motivation and psychological changes they have created in the field of anesthesia. True, there are very senior, experienced CRNAs working at my institution. Some are very bright and have provided some valuable clinical advice. But the new grad CRNA are strikingly different. They seem to be much more apathetic and undereducated. Of course they still complain to there colleagues the uselessness of MDAs.

One the other side of the spectrum, the new anesthesiology are becoming much stronger. They make it known to their patients that they are physicians first, anesthesiologists second. most residents I work with almost kills themself to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists. Its almost as though knowing that there are militant CRNA out there provides substantial amount of motivation to excel. Its creating a generation of residents/new attendings are extremely competent at what they do. I hear it from fellow surgeons all the time.

It was always a battle, but when that absurd CRNA study came out this year, it became a war. I don't think CRNAs could of hurt themselves any worse. That CRNA funded study which almost any educated scholar views as a piece of toliet paper, did nothing to improve their profession in the eyes of anyone outside of anesthesia. However it created a pure hatred and betrayal felt by many anesthesiologists.

I see the near future as being an increasing bright one for anesthesiologists. As CRNA mills keep churning incompetent CRNAs, they will make the field as a whole look bad. As the newly motivated, highly skilled anesthesiologists make their way into the workforce replacing the older, lazier anesthesiologists, surgeons and hospitals will know the true value.

So I say the easiest way to fix to the problem is to exceed in your residency and learn as much as you can. Evolution will fix the rest.


Agree...well said
 
The pre-law undergrads haven't figured it out. RNs with desflurane dreams won't either.

Well-said. ICU nurses see dollar signs in the crna world, and I dont blame them for wanting to better their situation.

Experience tells us that law schools, despite a horrible job market, are still full with future unemployed debtors because they think "I'll be the lucky one who makes law review and gets BIGLAW". CRNA schools will have the same situation very soon, and many current icu nurses are going to pay 6 figures for a diluted, even by crna standards, and overpriced vacation from icu land.
 
One the other side of the spectrum, the new breed anesthesiologists are becoming much stronger. They make it known to their patients that they are physicians first, anesthesiologists second. The residents I work with practically kill themselves to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists. It’s almost as though knowing there are militant CRNA out there provides an unprecedented surge of motivation to excel.

This part almost gave me goosebumps... I can't wait to become one of said physicians.
 
I don't think militant CRNAs understand the commotion they have created in the field of anesthesia. True, there are very senior, experienced CRNAs working at my institution. Some are very bright and truly appreciate the field. But the new grad CRNA are strikingly different. They seem to be much more apathetic, unskilled, and undereducated. I hear surgeons yelling at them through the OR hallways.

One the other side of the spectrum, the new breed anesthesiologists are becoming much stronger. They make it known to their patients that they are physicians first, anesthesiologists second. The residents I work with practically kill themselves to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists. It’s almost as though knowing there are militant CRNA out there provides an unprecedented surge of motivation to excel.

It was always a battle, but when that absurd CRNA study came out last year, it became a war. I don't think CRNAs could have hurt themselves any worse. The CRNA funded study did nothing to improve their stance in the healthcare world. However, it created a toxic atmosphere where anesthesiologist grew true hatred for CRNAs because of the betrayal they felt.

I see the near future as being an increasing bright one for anesthesiologists. As CRNA mills keep churning incompetent CRNAs, they will make the CRNA profession as a whole look bad. Conversely, the newly motivated, highly skilled anesthesiologists will monopolize their procedures and provide true value to the hospital and surgeons. Once the older lazier incompetent “MDAs” start to retire, the field will forever be changed.

So I say the easiest way to fix to the problem is to exceed in your residency and learn as much as you can.

Evolution will do the rest.




Very True. In fact, ever since I started reading murse-anesthesia, I've never looked at another CRNA the same way. They are quite simply the enemy.
 
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I'm going to confirm what RxBoy said above. I'm at a top 20 program and the residents in my class are machines..intense. We have a great group, get along wonderful, everyones cool...but at 7am even the chics come in each day ready for business and are total bad asses.

Most, if not all, have already caught up with the CRNA's in our dept (and most of them are pretty good - especially the senior CRNA's). Last years "study" started a fire in my class and residency as a whole.

From above - "The residents I work with practically kill themselves to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists" - Hits the nail on the head.

The CRNA schools can continue to pop up like dandelions, I get excited everytime I hear about 1 b/c they're ruining their own profession - ask the lawyers and pharmacists about this.

Bring it.

CrazyJake

PS - I hope they publish another study, b/c it will only make my co-residents even more determined.
 
This is my first post here and I have been reading this board for almost 5 years. I'm a 38yo CRNA. And sadly I agree with everything posted in this thread. It is infuriating because it is true.

I have learned so much coming here and reading the discussions. I sincerely thank you all for allowing me to witness these exchanges. Keep up the good work.
 
I'm going to confirm what RxBoy said above. I'm at a top 20 program and the residents in my class are machines..intense. We have a great group, get along wonderful, everyones cool...but at 7am even the chics come in each day ready for business and are total bad asses.

Most, if not all, have already caught up with the CRNA's in our dept (and most of them are pretty good - especially the senior CRNA's). Last years "study" started a fire in my class and residency as a whole.

From above - "The residents I work with practically kill themselves to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists" - Hits the nail on the head.

The CRNA schools can continue to pop up like dandelions, I get excited everytime I hear about 1 b/c they're ruining their own profession - ask the lawyers and pharmacists about this.

Bring it.

CrazyJake

PS - I hope they publish another study, b/c it will only make my co-residents even more determined.

7am is nice... You must take much more call than me or have amazing anesthesia techs. On my specialty months like thoracic/vascular, I sometimes have to show up at 4:15 am (5:30 is the average). There is an eerie quietness in the OR that early, almost as though the place is abandoned. But I find it very peaceful.

Last week rolled in at 4:00 for a 7:30 start thoracoabdominal aneurysm repair. I got my lumbar drain setup, rapid trasfuser, hot lines, upper and downer drips, TEE, meds ready to go. Pt shows up at 6:00... pop in the lumbar drain, double lumen cordis and float the swan, bilateral A-line's. Patient in the room at 7:30 am ready, 7:45 hooked up, zeroed, transduced (5 different invasive readings on the screen) and ready for induction. No delay. Surgeons love it. When they ask their fellows questions about the patient (last cardiac cath and what did it show, or last HgA1C, ect), I sometimes chime in and answer it when they aren't sure. Case went smooth from our end. Transport the patient with the surgery fellow to our anesthesia run SICU, sign them out to my anesthesia buddy who happens to be on call in the SICU. We discuss the patient, vascular fellow is impressed. The surgeons around here are really starting to realize the value in having another physician on the other side of the curtain. Its symbiotic.

We have a ]share of lazy attendings... I can see why CRNAs hate them. But our residency is cohesive, hard working, and always looking out for one another. I think in the future, if our same residents act this way and replace these lazy attendings... the CRNAs value will be severly diminished.

But like you said.... Our residents here are always ready to rock.
 
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Are there a bunch of them? I haven't noticed or met them yet.

Today's gung ho residents are tomorrows unenthusiastic, behind the times attendings. To some extent it happens to all of us. It is called getting older and having different priorities.

Life cycle of an anesthesiologist:

Beginning of career: arrive early, stay late, ask for all the tough cases.

Middle of career: Show up on time, leave on time, Take your share of the tough cases.

Tail end of career: Show up late, leave early, threaten to quit if you draw a tough case.
;)
 
Are there a bunch of them? I haven't noticed or met them yet.

Not a bunch, but enough to put a blemish on the dept. They generally show up for induction, and never see them again. I think in the ACT model, some attendings fall into the trap of becoming the guy to collect a paycheck for doing the least amount of work. I think this is why some CRNAs have become so malicious toward attendings. I've seen some CRNAs step all over them and they just take it. Granted they are far and between in my program, but this mostly stems from attendings that graduated when anesthesia couldn't fill their spots. That lower quartile medical class ranking applicant. Fast forward to today, and you top of the class medical students applying for a competitive field.

I think in the near future, these lazier attendings will be weeded out quickly. As new, motivated anesthesiologists fill positions, they will grow power in the group and realize these old-timers uselessness and weed them out. Physician run hospitals is a different story, its kill or be killed. ACT models in those institutions are the way it should be run.
 
Today's gung ho residents are tomorrows unenthusiastic, behind the times attendings. To some extent it happens to all of us. It is called getting older and having different priorities.

Life cycle of an anesthesiologist:

Beginning of career: arrive early, stay late, ask for all the tough cases.

Middle of career: Show up on time, leave on time, Take your share of the tough cases.

Tail end of career: Show up late, leave early, threaten to quit if you draw a tough case.
;)

I disagree. Residency was never a war before, just light at the end of the tunnel. That "Laissez-faire" attitude is what gave CRNAs power and prestige in the first place. Those same attendings sold the profession short. This gave the CRNAs a bargaining chip. It simply wont fly in the current market.

In today's healthcare world its all about value and skill. If you make 500k for doing a CRNA job, you will shortly become extincted. Even seniority will not save you. The future will rely on highly skilled, efficient and adaptable anesthesiologists. One that brings something unique to the table.

Hospitals will appreciate your value when you can do a supraclavicular block, AFOBI and a post op epidural on 3 different patients in under an hour. All this while understanding the patient's medical conditions and how to treat them perioperatively without use of "standard protocols" because you have those 2 letters after your name. Every time I hear a CRNA suggest not to place an epidural because the platelets are less then a 100, it reenforces how different our medical knowledge is than there's. Push yourself to be that anesthesiologist who can back up everything they do because you know the literature.

The CRNA mill grad won't have a chance.
 
I disagree. Residency was never a war before, just light at the end of the tunnel. That "Laissez-faire" attitude is what gave CRNAs power and prestige in the first place. Those same attendings sold the profession short. This gave the CRNAs a bargaining chip. It simply wont fly in the current market.

In today's healthcare world its all about value and skill. If you make 500k for doing a CRNA job, you will shortly become extincted. Even seniority will not save you. The future will rely on highly skilled, efficient and adaptable anesthesiologists. One that brings something unique to the table.

Hospitals will appreciate your value when you can do a supraclavicular block, AFOBI and a post op epidural on 3 different patients in under an hour. All this while understanding the patient's medical conditions and how to treat them perioperatively without use of "standard protocols" because you have those 2 letters after your name. Every time I hear a CRNA suggest not to place an epidural because the platelets are less then a 100, it reenforces how different our medical knowledge is than there's. Push yourself to be that anesthesiologist who can back up everything they do because you know the literature.

The CRNA mill grad won't have a chance.

No they won't. They will ask "Do we need a Lexus when a Toyota will do?" They will say that ACT practice is cheaper than MD only, "Let's transition to that model". For ACT practices, "Do we really need six docs each day supervising 20 ORs filled with CRNAs? Can we get by with four?"
 
No they won't. They will ask "Do we need a Lexus when a Toyota will do?" They will say that ACT practice is cheaper than MD only, "Let's transition to that model". For ACT practices, "Do we really need six docs each day supervising 20 ORs filled with CRNAs? Can we get by with four?"

Agree 100%. Already happening.
 
No they won't. They will ask "Do we need a Lexus when a Toyota will do?" They will say that ACT practice is cheaper than MD only, "Let's transition to that model". For ACT practices, "Do we really need six docs each day supervising 20 ORs filled with CRNAs? Can we get by with four?"

....And as I have experienced first-hand, there will be anesthesiologists who will actually help advocate the “ACT” model and harm their own profession.

I’m still flabbergasted by that anesthesiologist actually advocating the current setup, and hamstringing his own profession.

I would always, always, always advocate direct contact with doctors in my profession, and never, under any circumstance, tell a patient who requests seeing a doctor directly that the mid-level is good enough. You don’t make yourself indispensable by telling patients that there are others who can perform some of your job.
 
I disagree. Residency was never a war before, just light at the end of the tunnel. That "Laissez-faire" attitude is what gave CRNAs power and prestige in the first place.



Power and prestige?

As I understand the struggle, CRNAs are around because they work for 1/2 to 1/3 of what you work for. That’s not prestige. That’s economics. We live in a world where containing costs is the primary goal, and patient safety being a very distant second.

Yeah, they’re cutting into your profession, but I don’t think anyone - certainly not on the surgery side of the OR workforce - considers CRNAs to have any measure prestige.

Maybe among other nurses they do. But, well....nobody gives a **** what nurses think!!
 
....And as I have experienced first-hand, there will be anesthesiologists who will actually help advocate the “ACT” model and harm their own profession.

I’m still flabbergasted by that anesthesiologist actually advocating the current setup, and hamstringing his own profession.

I would always, always, always advocate direct contact with doctors in my profession, and never, under any circumstance, tell a patient who requests seeing a doctor directly that the mid-level is good enough. You don’t make yourself indispensable by telling patients that there are others who can perform some of your job.

Respectfully, I believe this was covered in depth in the other thread. It sounded like there were many confounding variables in your situation. It was an unfortunate situation, but might have been avoidable. Anyway, this isn't the topic this thread is addressing.

Sorry for the additional hijack.
 
I don't think militant CRNAs understand the commotion they have created in the field of anesthesia. True, there are very senior, experienced CRNAs working at my institution. Some are very bright and truly appreciate the field. But the new grad CRNA are strikingly different. They seem to be much more apathetic, unskilled, and undereducated. I hear surgeons yelling at them through the OR hallways.

One the other side of the spectrum, the new breed anesthesiologists are becoming much stronger. They make it known to their patients that they are physicians first, anesthesiologists second. The residents I work with practically kill themselves to become the strongest, most skilled, most dedicated anesthesiologists. It’s almost as though knowing there are militant CRNA out there provides an unprecedented surge of motivation to excel.

It was always a battle, but when that absurd CRNA study came out last year, it became a war. I don't think CRNAs could have hurt themselves any worse. The CRNA funded study did nothing to improve their stance in the healthcare world. However, it created a toxic atmosphere where anesthesiologist grew true hatred for CRNAs because of the betrayal they felt.

I see the near future as being an increasing bright one for anesthesiologists. As CRNA mills keep churning incompetent CRNAs, they will make the CRNA profession as a whole look bad. Conversely, the newly motivated, highly skilled anesthesiologists will monopolize their procedures and provide true value to the hospital and surgeons. Once the older lazier incompetent “MDAs” start to retire, the field will forever be changed.

So I say the easiest way to fix to the problem is to exceed in your residency and learn as much as you can.

Evolution will do the rest.



Well put! CRNA's are a definite shaping force for young MD's in anesthesia.

Seeing nurse's purport to have the training and fund of knowledge I have has just led me to hold on to everything I learned in medical school and undergraduate that much more. We took advanced organic chemistry, physics, and biochemistry as well as in depth pathophysiology course work. I spent a decade of my free time working in a lab. Some specialties might let this training fade from memory, but I think we are the resident pharmacologist and physiologist for the medical center/surgicenter privileged with our employment.

The CRNA has a role in our health care system. CRNA's allow for more people to receive the surgery they need, and the ACT is here to stay. I love working WITH my CRNA's. When we work together we do great things for many more patients. I want my CRNA's trained well and part of that training is realism.

Our generation of physician anesthesiologists is one with a longitudinal view of patient care not cross-sectional. My perioperative care is a reflection of an understanding of a patient's individual physiology (both aberrant and healthy) with a commitment to optimizing their postoperative recovery and surgical outcome -- not to just get them off the table.

CRNA's remind me to tighten the grasp on all I've learned. The term MDA is rubbish. I am a medical doctor. My internship alone qualified me to act as a GP and treat your family member's general ailments. My specialty training allows me to keep your family member's safe and comfortable during critical, invasive surgical procedures and to optimize their outcome.

Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it." Buddha
 
....And as I have experienced first-hand, there will be anesthesiologists who will actually help advocate the “ACT” model and harm their own profession.

I’m still flabbergasted by that anesthesiologist actually advocating the current setup, and hamstringing his own profession.

I would always, always, always advocate direct contact with doctors in my profession, and never, under any circumstance, tell a patient who requests seeing a doctor directly that the mid-level is good enough. You don’t make yourself indispensable by telling patients that there are others who can perform some of your job.

You talk now, but see if you don't have a "mid-level" working in your clinic or otherwise.

"No one cares what nurses think?" You need some time away from the polo fields junior.
 
Not a bunch, but enough to put a blemish on the dept. They generally show up for induction, and never see them again. I think in the ACT model, some attendings fall into the trap of becoming the guy to collect a paycheck for doing the least amount of work. I think this is why some CRNAs have become so malicious toward attendings. I've seen some CRNAs step all over them and they just take it. Granted they are far and between in my program, but this mostly stems from attendings that graduated when anesthesia couldn't fill their spots. That lower quartile medical class ranking applicant. Fast forward to today, and you top of the class medical students applying for a competitive field.

I think in the near future, these lazier attendings will be weeded out quickly. As new, motivated anesthesiologists fill positions, they will grow power in the group and realize these old-timers uselessness and weed them out. Physician run hospitals is a different story, its kill or be killed. ACT models in those institutions are the way it should be run.

I agree, and I also think there is an entire different group of people who are pursuing anesthesiology as before. Back in the day apparently (from attendings who are interviewing applicants) anesthesia was not desirable and bottom of the barrel med students went into it. Maybe that why its in the state its in now, and all people do is bitch. Now you have top of class, badass people willing to scrap it out for the future of something they choose because they liked it above all the other crap in medicine they were exposed to. If you were involved in something as it was "taken over" its cuz you let it.
 
As I understand the struggle, CRNAs are around because they work for 1/2 to 1/3 of what you work for.

Then you misunderstand things. Around here, CRNAs aren't saving the hospital any money when you factor in the hours they work and the cases/lines/blocks/airways/sedations they can't do, won't do, or aren't permitted to do.

They're here because people need surgery and there aren't enough anesthesiologists to do all the cases.

Are you willing to cut your future OR schedule in half just to live in a world where CRNAs don't exist?
 
I agree, and I also think there is an entire different group of people who are pursuing anesthesiology as before. Back in the day apparently (from attendings who are interviewing applicants) anesthesia was not desirable and bottom of the barrel med students went into it. Maybe that why its in the state its in now, and all people do is bitch. Now you have top of class, badass people willing to scrap it out for the future of something they choose because they liked it above all the other crap in medicine they were exposed to. If you were involved in something as it was "taken over" its cuz you let it.


once this kids done rockin the tranny year he should run for office in the ASA
 
Then you misunderstand things. Around here, CRNAs aren't saving the hospital any money when you factor in the hours they work and the cases/lines/blocks/airways/sedations they can't do, won't do, or aren't permitted to do.

They're here because people need surgery and there aren't enough anesthesiologists to do all the cases.

Are you willing to cut your future OR schedule in half just to live in a world where CRNAs don't exist?

What percentage of a hospital’s procedures consist of something that a CRNA absolutely cannot do? I don’t know the statistics, but I’d imagine it’s pretty small. When you have one anesthesiologist supervising four CRNAs, it’s got to be pretty small.

And with that many CRNAs employed by hospitals, they have to be profitable for the hospital.

Yeah, sure, they do allow more people to have their needed surgeries, but I don’t think that any patient’s case should be considered ‘unimportant’ or ‘simple enough’ to be relegated to the care of a CRNA.

What we need are more anesthesiologists. Not more warm bodies to handle the easy stuff.
 
What percentage of a hospital’s procedures consist of something that a CRNA absolutely cannot do? I don’t know the statistics, but I’d imagine it’s pretty small. When you have one anesthesiologist supervising four CRNAs, it’s got to be pretty small.

And with that many CRNAs employed by hospitals, they have to be profitable for the hospital.

Yeah, sure, they do allow more people to have their needed surgeries, but I don’t think that any patient’s case should be considered ‘unimportant’ or ‘simple enough’ to be relegated to the care of a CRNA.

What we need are more anesthesiologists. Not more warm bodies to handle the easy stuff.

Every single one of your posts says the same thing, every single one.

Find something new to talk about.

-credit to Jet

 
Very True. In fact, ever since I started reading murse-anesthesia, I've never looked at another CRNA the same way. They are quite simply the enemy.

The sad thing is that most of the nurses out there (at least that I have worked with) are reasonable and very easy to work with.

Don't even bother going over to that site, let alone posting there as some other users have done. It represents the worst possible element of the CRNA group. The hate, vitriol and insecurities they spew forth on a daily basis is nauseating.
 
I don’t think that any patient’s case should be considered ‘unimportant’ or ‘simple enough’ to be relegated to the care of a CRNA.

What we need are more anesthesiologists. Not more warm bodies to handle the easy stuff.

So what you're saying is, "NO ONE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY. I HAVE THE IDEALISM OF A 17 YEAR OLD."
 
Power and prestige?

As I understand the struggle, CRNAs are around because they work for 1/2 to 1/3 of what you work for. That’s not prestige. That’s economics. We live in a world where containing costs is the primary goal, and patient safety being a very distant second.

Yeah, they’re cutting into your profession, but I don’t think anyone - certainly not on the surgery side of the OR workforce - considers CRNAs to have any measure prestige.

Maybe among other nurses they do. But, well....nobody gives a **** what nurses think!!

Dude what's your problem? Pharmacists aren't MDs, are they worthless? Rad techs aren't MDs, are they not qualified to shoot an x ray? What's your beef with nurses? The truth is every member of the healthcare team from the hospital CEO to the housekeeper has a job to perform and should be respected. The second you learn to respect what all participants bring to the table, you will be on your way to becoming an excellent physician.
 
Dude what's your problem? Pharmacists aren't MDs, are they worthless? Rad techs aren't MDs, are they not qualified to shoot an x ray? What's your beef with nurses? The truth is every member of the healthcare team from the hospital CEO to the housekeeper has a job to perform and should be respected. The second you learn to respect what all participants bring to the table, you will be on your way to becoming an excellent physician.

:thumbup: He's in for a rude awakening if and when he gets out in the real world. Right now he is clueless.

Hey, futrrENT - The ENT group I use utilizes both PA's and NP's in their extremely busy office. Do they suck as much as you think anesthesiologists do that use AA's and CRNA's?
 
There is no way to stop the crabgrasses. Schools make money and local Anesthesia groups/hospitals can open more ORs with these free labors. In my town, there are only two private anesthesiology groups who still have partners. Both groups rely on SRNAs so that partners can make $$$$.

We (MDs) are to be blamed...We train them and they are here to stay. They are not going back to ICUs.
 
Please check out Texas Weslyan university CRNA programs...They offer "distance learning locations"...They have 130 SRNAs in every class (Tuition is $82K for 2.5 years for school, with mininum teaching). The students rotates at 62 hospitals ranging from CA to North Dakata to Texas to FL. You can checkout the list at http://www.all-crna-schools.com/texas-wesleyan-university.html

The only way to stop the SRNA madness is to ask the MDs in these 62 hospitals to stop training these SRNAs...it will never happen.
 
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Please check out Texas Weslyan university CRNA programs...They offer "distance learning locations"...They have 130 SRNAs in every class (Tuition is $82K for 2.5 years for school, with mininum teaching). The students rotates at 62 hospitals ranging from CA to North Dakata to Texas to FL. You can checkout the list at http://www.all-crna-schools.com/texas-wesleyan-university.html

The only way to stop the SRNA madness is to ask the MDs in these 62 hospitals to stop training these SRNAs...it will never happen.

Sounds like some real quality education...I'm shaking in my board-certified boots. :laugh:
 
It seems that most of the MDs who believe CRNAs are trying to take over the field are residents. Do the attendings see this as well? My wife is an ICU nurse and she tells me that none of the nurses she knows that have gone on to CRNA school have talked about wanting to practice solo. Most nurses dont become nurses to run the show.

With CRNA schools offering "distance learning" that would be pretty frightening to supervise let alone practice solo.
 
Sounds like some real quality education...I'm shaking in my board-certified boots. :laugh:

And if the average lay person read what he/she had posted above they would be shaking in their potential-patient-boots.
 
It seems that most of the MDs who believe CRNAs are trying to take over the field are residents. Do the attendings see this as well? My wife is an ICU nurse and she tells me that none of the nurses she knows that have gone on to CRNA school have talked about wanting to practice solo. Most nurses dont become nurses to run the show.

With CRNA schools offering "distance learning" that would be pretty frightening to supervise let alone practice solo.

I'm starting to think a lot of this is blown out of proportion, but I don't have the experience level that most of the posters here do.

Distance-learning, sounds like the new trend in education these days. Major fail. Good for us.
 
What we need are more anesthesiologists.

Neat idea! Why didn't we think of that?

Oh ... maybe you could help us out with a minor detail ... where are they going to come from?


While you're wishing away shortages, the federal government could use more revenue and southern California could use more fresh water. Thx a bunch.
 
In the future residency funding from Medicare may become a problem with continued budget problems..not sure how it would play out


Neat idea! Why didn't we think of that?

Oh ... maybe you could help us out with a minor detail ... where are they going to come from?


While you're wishing away shortages, the federal government could use more revenue and southern California could use more fresh water. Thx a bunch.
 
It seems that most of the MDs who believe CRNAs are trying to take over the field are residents. Do the attendings see this as well? My wife is an ICU nurse and she tells me that none of the nurses she knows that have gone on to CRNA school have talked about wanting to practice solo. Most nurses dont become nurses to run the show.

With CRNA schools offering "distance learning" that would be pretty frightening to supervise let alone practice solo.

You know, I have agree with that. I have yet to meet a CRNA who even expresses a desire to go independent. The vocal online minority is all we see.
 
A side-effect of the CRNA production mills may be DECREASING CRNA salaries over the next few years. It wouldn't suprise me to see $110K starting salaries as the norm in 2013.
 
You know, I have agree with that. I have yet to meet a CRNA who even expresses a desire to go independent. The vocal online minority is all we see.

I know a couple who are pretty enthusiastic about being on their own. They still want us around for "backup" though ... and they seem to be the younger CRNAs. (And one with a bona fide cluster B personality disorder.) There's just no fear in those guys, but I wouldn't call them the norm.

The older CRNAs I know don't really seem to want complete independence. Even the military and ex-military ones who had that complete independence thrust upon them at some point in the past. Pride and bravado go a long way on the internet, but when it's their patient, their license, their malpractice carrier on the hook, experience seems to teach some humility.

Of course, 100% of them give money to the AANA, so there you go.
 
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