NSU opening MD school

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in addition to the finishing of the currently-in-construction research building and planned on-campus hospital. Lets chat osteopathic medicine

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This is nuts, and to me doesn't make any sense. If they are truly aiming to "help meet the growing need of osteopathic (D.O.) and allopathic (M.D.) physicians nationally and regionally" - why then wouldn't you just open up more seats in your DO program? Why distinguish further between the two types of physicians?

Maybe someone at Nova can comment further - what purpose would this serve?
 
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So if I apply to NOVA, will they consider me for both programs?
 
I'm assuming it's going to be a few years before the MD school is up and running. I didn't see a timeline, but I can't imagine it will be in the very near future. Also, one will go through AMCAS and other AACOMAS.

So if I apply to NOVA, will they consider me for both programs?
 
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will it actually be called the "NSU College of Allopathic Medicine"? lol
 
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This is nuts, and to me doesn't make any sense. If they are truly aiming to "help meet the growing need of osteopathic (D.O.) and allopathic (M.D.) physicians nationally and regionally" - why then wouldn't you just open up more seats in your DO program? Why distinguish further between the two types of physicians?

Maybe someone at Nova can comment further - what purpose would this serve?

First of all, there are 240 students in my class and no room for more.

Secondly, NSU is a university and the COM is a college within it. This MD program is being opened by the University, not the DO college. I would not be surprised if this was done over the objections of the college, but I'm not privy to the internal politics and such.
 
Obviously there are problems with med school expansion and the match that we don't need to rehash here, but overall, couldn't this be a good thing for NSU-COM students... think of all the resources that an MD school will bring in that NSU-COM students will be able to take advantage of? Seems to have worked out that way for MSU.
 
We had one hell of a Dean's hour today, I can tell you that much.

The university wants a research-intensive medical school to complement the large push for biomedical research they are doing right now. Evidently they did not feel the COM could or would be able to fill that role. Funny, since the new research building is literally right next to the COM building, and the new school will be in North Miami Beach. Either way, it will be a long time before this is up and running. It doesn't really affect us current students, but we do feel a little stung by the university's lack of support.
 
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We had one hell of a Dean's hour today, I can tell you that much.

The university wants a research-intensive medical school to complement the large push for biomedical research they are doing right now. Evidently they did not feel the COM could or would be able to fill that role. Funny, since the new research building is literally right next to the COM building, and the new school will be in North Miami Beach. Either way, it will be a long time before this is up and running. It doesn't really affect us current students, but we do feel a little stung by the university's lack of support.

haha Nova dean's hours are always a lively event. last year we had some real hot ones when they shifted us to mandatory attendance
 
Nova has mandatory lecture?

no, they pulled back the plan after a fairly heated debate. We have mandatory labs and a mandatory friday morning class based on clinical reasoning, plus required 70% attendance at OPP lecture.
 
no, they pulled back the plan after a fairly heated debate. We have mandatory labs and a mandatory friday morning class based on clinical reasoning, plus required 70% attendance at OPP lecture.

Woah 70% of OPP attendance? That's a bit much. I've been to 1 OMM lecture in my life, that stuff can easily be crammed in a few days.
 
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Woah 70% of OPP attendance? That's a bit much. I've been to 1 OMM lecture in my life, that stuff can easily be crammed in a few days.

that was volunteered by our SGA in response to the withdrawal of the mandatory attendance policy. Its not so bad, because OPP lecture is always scheduled immediately before lab (which is understandably mandatory) and the lecturers in that course are the ones who grade us on practicals. We average around 8% attendance when its not mandatory, so its helpful to have a crowd when grading can be... subjective... on practicals.
 
First of all, there are 240 students in my class and no room for more.

Secondly, NSU is a university and the COM is a college within it. This MD program is being opened by the University, not the DO college. I would not be surprised if this was done over the objections of the college, but I'm not privy to the internal politics and such.

Lol if you have 240 seats in your program, wouldn't you think it would be better to allocate additional resources to open up more spots within a program (increase the faculty:student ratio, smaller anatomy lab groups) that's already established itself over the years - instead of starting a WHOLE new program - which again would take away from the DO students' resources anyways (you're still adding close to 100 more medical students, except this time they're MD, but will regardless take up study space, etc.)?

This is clearly a $$$ driven move, because if they truly had an interest in putting out more physicians to cover the "shortage" - it would be smart to allocate more resources and funding to an already solid physician training program.

Obviously the program is being opened by NSU, and not NSU-COM specifically - lol I thought that was pretty self-explanatory considering its a major COI.
 
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We had one hell of a Dean's hour today, I can tell you that much.

The university wants a research-intensive medical school to complement the large push for biomedical research they are doing right now. Evidently they did not feel the COM could or would be able to fill that role. Funny, since the new research building is literally right next to the COM building, and the new school will be in North Miami Beach. Either way, it will be a long time before this is up and running. It doesn't really affect us current students, but we do feel a little stung by the university's lack of support.

Yeah, there is absolutely no reason a DO school can't be a research powerhouse. They just have to be willing to invest in the DO school. Build the right facilities, hire the right faculty, apply for the right grants and voilá....
 
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Lol if you have 240 seats in your program, wouldn't you think it would be better to allocate additional resources to open up more spots within a program (increase the faculty:student ratio, smaller anatomy lab groups) that's already established itself over the years - instead of starting a WHOLE new program - which again would take away from the DO students' resources anyways (you're still adding close to 100 more medical students, except this time they're MD, but will regardless take up study space, etc.)?

I'm not in school administration, so I don't know much about resource allocation. I think the idea that the MD school would detract from the DO school's resources is an assumption, but not necessarily true. The MD school will be in Miami beach, which is a different city/county about half an hour from Nova.

I don't think its unreasonable for a university to open an MD program if they think it will increase prestige and research opportunities. The short answer is that University administration, and COM administration, see a distinction between DO and MD that is significant enough that they think opening an MD school would be beneficial for the university and community.
 
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Lol if you have 240 seats in your program, wouldn't you think it would be better to allocate additional resources to open up more spots within a program (increase the faculty:student ratio, smaller anatomy lab groups) that's already established itself over the years - instead of starting a WHOLE new program - which again would take away from the DO students' resources anyways (you're still adding close to 100 more medical students, except this time they're MD, but will regardless take up study space, etc.)?

This is clearly a $$$ driven move, because if they truly had an interest in putting out more physicians to cover the "shortage" - it would be smart to allocate more resources and funding to an already solid physician training program.

Obviously the program is being opened by NSU, and not NSU-COM specifically - lol I thought that was pretty self-explanatory considering its a major COI.
They have filed for a class size increase to 250, but I believe 250 (plus 8%, 270) is the max that COCA allows for one campus. The COM cannot expand further unless it opens a branch campus.
 
In the spirit of the first night of Passover...oy vey.
 
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I'm not in school administration, so I don't know much about resource allocation. I think the idea that the MD school would detract from the DO school's resources is an assumption, but not necessarily true. The MD school will be in Miami beach, which is a different city/county about half an hour from Nova.

I don't think its unreasonable for a university to open an MD program if they think it will increase prestige and research opportunities. The short answer is that University administration, and COM administration, see a distinction between DO and MD that is significant enough that they think opening an MD school would be beneficial for the university and community.

DO leadership is to blame for this. Every chance we get we keep shouting the whole "separate but equal!" slogan, yet when we want to match residencies we say "we're the same!". We feel the need to interject OMM into EVERYTHING. Doing community blood pressures and health check ups? Better make sure we do unnecessary OMM there too! DO leadership puts so much emphasis on OMM and making sure the public knows that we perform "manual manipulations" that it's no wonder the public has no idea what we really do. Instead of showing the public that there are plenty of DOs in surgery, anesthesia, cardiology etc. we seem hell bent on showing off our osteopathic hands. DOs are poorly misunderstood by anybody who's not in health care, and to be honest it's our own fault.
 
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DO leadership is to blame for this. Every chance we get we keep shouting the whole "separate but equal!" slogan, yet when we want to match residencies we say "we're the same!". We feel the need to interject OMM into EVERYTHING. Doing community blood pressures and health check ups? Better make sure we do unnecessary OMM there too! DO leadership puts so much emphasis on OMM and making sure the public knows that we perform "manual manipulations" that it's no wonder the public has no idea what we really do. Instead of showing the public that there are plenty of DOs in surgery, anesthesia, cardiology etc. we seem hell bent on showing off our osteopathic hands. DOs are poorly misunderstood by anybody who's not in health care, and to be honest it's our own fault.

This literally could not have been said any better. You 100% hit the nail on the head. I'm beginning my first year in August, so I know my inexperience really discredits anything I say but, really the general public has no clue what a DO is because of that reason.

I'm not saying that OMM should be sidestepped or removed from the curriculum because idk the practice as many of you who have learned and used it (not having tried it to treat others) to even comment on it. But "we" should stop using it as the forefront of our campaign to justify a DO degree.
 
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I'm not in school administration, so I don't know much about resource allocation. I think the idea that the MD school would detract from the DO school's resources is an assumption, but not necessarily true. The MD school will be in Miami beach, which is a different city/county about half an hour from Nova.

I don't think its unreasonable for a university to open an MD program if they think it will increase prestige and research opportunities. The short answer is that University administration, and COM administration, see a distinction between DO and MD that is significant enough that they think opening an MD school would be beneficial for the university and community.
I wouldn't assume that the COM is in support of this. Dean's hour today made it seem like that was not necessarily the case.
 
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This literally could not have been said any better. You 100% hit the nail on the head. I'm beginning my first year in August, so I know my inexperience really discredits anything I say but, really the general public has no clue what a DO is because of that reason.

I'm not saying that OMM should be sidestepped or removed from the curriculum because idk the practice as many of you who have learned and used it (not having tried it to treat others) to even comment on it. But "we" should stop using it as the forefront of our campaign to justify a DO degree.

Agreed. OMM has it's time and place, but don't make it seem like that's all we do. Especially when 95% of us don't even use OMM when we graduate.
 
So, schools exist to make money. DO and MD schools have different markets and that's why it makes sense for money minded individuals to have both in one institution.

The OMT, Biomedical Research, Osteopathic Principles, Patient Care, Underserved debates you're all having........

Let me translate that for you: $, $, $, $, $.
 
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So if I apply to NOVA, will they consider me for both programs?

Generally, in this situation, you need to apply individually to the DO and the MD program. But it won't affect you anyway as this is years away from becoming a reality.

First of all, there are 240 students in my class and no room for more.

Secondly, NSU is a university and the COM is a college within it. This MD program is being opened by the University, not the DO college. I would not be surprised if this was done over the objections of the college, but I'm not privy to the internal politics and such.

I think we're all aware that the DO school isn't opening an MD school. That would be a tad absurd. But the fact remains that if NSU wants to splurge on resources for a medial school, whether its research or anything else, they could dump the money into the DO program and let it flourish. There's no reason to open an MD school.
 
i have a quick question about NOVA: i looked at the calendar, and it says that med school (D.O.) has summer classes. So how much time do you have for summer break if you go to NOVA?
 
i have a quick question about NOVA: i looked at the calendar, and it says that med school (D.O.) has summer classes. So how much time do you have for summer break if you go to NOVA?

7 weeks for summer break this year.
 
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Obviously there are problems with med school expansion and the match that we don't need to rehash here, but overall, couldn't this be a good thing for NSU-COM students... think of all the resources that an MD school will bring in that NSU-COM students will be able to take advantage of? Seems to have worked out that way for MSU.
I suspect that it will be more the other way - the MD school will eventually cannibalize teaching and/or research faculty and facilities and rotation sites from the existing DO school. This is similar to why Rowan wanted to absorb UMDNJ's DO school at the same time they opened their MD school.
 
I suspect that it will be more the other way - the MD school will eventually cannibalize teaching and/or research faculty and facilities and rotation sites from the existing DO school. This is similar to why Rowan wanted to absorb UMDNJ's DO school at the same time they opened their MD school.
That would be difficult, considering the new research facilities (the building is already being built) and soon-to-be Nova teaching hospital will both be on campus in Davie and the MD school will be 40 minutes away in North Miami Beach. I think there will be plenty of rotation spots for everybody, as HCA is massively ramping up the overall size of its medical education capacity as part of its agreement with NSUCOM. The MD school will definitely be more research-intensive and have facilities of its own, but I don't see anything being "stolen" from the COM based on what we know right now.
 
I suspect that it will be more the other way - the MD school will eventually cannibalize teaching and/or research faculty and facilities and rotation sites from the existing DO school. This is similar to why Rowan wanted to absorb UMDNJ's DO school at the same time they opened their MD school.
your posts always seem to be about DO's being persecuted in some way...
 
That would be difficult, considering the new research facilities (the building is already being built) and soon-to-be Nova teaching hospital will both be on campus in Davie and the MD school will be 40 minutes away in North Miami Beach. I think there will be plenty of rotation spots for everybody, as HCA is massively ramping up the overall size of its medical education capacity as part of its agreement with NSUCOM. The MD school will definitely be more research-intensive and have facilities of its own, but I don't see anything being "stolen" from the COM based on what we know right now.
Time will tell. I would be surprised if we don't see MD students rotating through spots that were previously occupied by DO students. 40 minutes isn't that long of a drive. It sounds like you're pretty aware of what they're doing, though.
 
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Man, what a kick in the nuts to the DO school there. This doesn't lend itself to creating a happy atmosphere between the MD and DO schools at the same institution.
 
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your posts always seem to be about DO's being persecuted in some way...

Maybe that's the case with his posts but honestly he's right, this screws the DO kids. The rotation sites are limited in of itself down in a place like Florida. It's not like NYC where you have multiple other options to rotate at if you've lost a couple.
 
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your posts always seem to be about DO's being persecuted in some way...
Maybe that's the case with his posts but honestly he's right, this screws the DO kids. The rotation sites are limited in of itself down in a place like Florida. It's not like NYC where you have multiple other options to rotate at if you've lost a couple.

I'm going to take a middle ground here.

I think there will be some benefit to the DO school in that some of the research grant money that the MD program will bring in will provide opportunities for the DO students. Researchers can always use more cheap labor from students looking to pad their resumes.

I also think NSU as a whole will benefit from the name recognition an MD school will bring, and some of that benefit will be passed off on the COM.

On the other hand, I think the benefit to the DO program would be far, far greater if NSU would just funnel the resources directly to the DO program. It could literally become THE premier DO school, with facilities, it's own teaching hospital and research grants to match any MD program out there.
 
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Also, I wonder if we're seeing the beginning of a trend in which new MD schools are opened in a model previously more characteristic of DO schools.

Think TCMC, a stand-alone, community-based private med school that could have easily been opened as a DO program.

Think Roseman University, a newish, outrageously expensive health sciences grad school with office-park campuses in two states that now wants to open an MD program.

Now the LCME has allowed the possibility of for-profit schools opening up, and there are at least a couple applicants.

A lot of the problems we assign to DO schools are really problems with the education industry overall, and MD schools are not immune.
 
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Also, I wonder if we're seeing the beginning of a trend in which new MD schools are opened in a model previously more characteristic of DO schools.

Think TCMC, a stand-alone, community-based private med school that could have easily been opened as a DO program.

Think Roseman University, a newish, outrageously expensive health sciences grad school with office-park campuses in two states that now wants to open an MD program.

Now the LCME has allowed the possibility of for-profit schools opening up, and there are at least a couple applicants.

A lot of the problems we assign to DO schools are really problems with the education industry overall, and MD schools are not immune.

Can you source that statement?
 
Thanks NurWollen!

That's insane they made that change!

Yeah, I suspect it wasn't because they just sat around and out of their own volition thought, "gee, for-profit education is just dandy!" I wonder if there was some lobbying involved. Or legal action threatened (no idea on what grounds or would be though.)
 
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Also, I wonder if we're seeing the beginning of a trend in which new MD schools are opened in a model previously more characteristic of DO schools.

Think TCMC, a stand-alone, community-based private med school that could have easily been opened as a DO program.

Think Roseman University, a newish, outrageously expensive health sciences grad school with office-park campuses in two states that now wants to open an MD program.

Now the LCME has allowed the possibility of for-profit schools opening up, and there are at least a couple applicants.

A lot of the problems we assign to DO schools are really problems with the education industry overall, and MD schools are not immune.

I was a little iffy on the LCME approving Commonwealth prior to them having hospital rotations finalized, but they got everything together in time...

...however they're not really new in being standalone. Older schools like RFU, and even Michigan State CHM don't really have their own hospitals, but instead a large series of affiliates.

Edit: BTW, has anyone ever read TCMC's wikipedia page? It's amazing that people honestly believe that having your school's page read like an advertisement actually helps rather than hurts your reputation.
 
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I'm not in school administration, so I don't know much about resource allocation. I think the idea that the MD school would detract from the DO school's resources is an assumption, but not necessarily true. The MD school will be in Miami beach, which is a different city/county about half an hour from Nova.

I don't think its unreasonable for a university to open an MD program if they think it will increase prestige and research opportunities. The short answer is that University administration, and COM administration, see a distinction between DO and MD that is significant enough that they think opening an MD school would be beneficial for the university and community.
Isn't there a joke along the lines of the following:

A university president was being groomed to take over an impressive university. It paid well, had top notch facilities, very well known research programs, and high admission standards. The prospective president asked the board, "This place is amazing, but what's the catch?"

The board responded, "It has not 1 medical school... but 2."
 
If opening up a MD school would bring so many benefits to NSU in terms of research funding and hospital affiliation, then why can't these resources be established for DO schools to begin with? If NSU has the resources to build a MD school from scratch that would meet LCME accreditation standards, why can't they simply direct these resources to DO students? Hypothetically, if the new MD school has more resources than the old DO school in terms of clinical and research opportunities, I could only assume NSU is abandoning its 30+ year old DO school in favour of the MD name.

There are currently two schools with both MD and DO schools, Rowan and MSU. I am not familiar with how clinical resources (as in hospital rotations, etc.) are shared at MSU among its CHM and COM students, but RowanSOM does not share any resource with Cooper medical school, vice versa. This is understandable since RowanSOM was acquired by Rowan after Cooper was established. The question then is if both MD and DO schools at NSU were to share resources, then why have two separate schools to begin with? This all goes back to the argument of having two separate systems of medical schools vs. one single system with elective OMM teaching. Either way, I hope NSU would rethink their plan to open an MD school.
 
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Guys, Old Dirty and Wu Tang said it in 1993 and it's just as true now. C.R.E.A.M.
 
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So, schools exist to make money. DO and MD schools have different markets and that's why it makes sense for money minded individuals to have both in one institution.

The OMT, Biomedical Research, Osteopathic Principles, Patient Care, Underserved debates you're all having........

Let me translate that for you: $, $, $, $, $.
**aGREED**
 
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