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What exactly is the difference? I even asked a PA and she couldn't tell me!?
migraineboy said:Oh no you don't PACmatthew....we aren't done yet. I wanted a chance to throw in my two cents worth. First of all, Freedom, PA training is based on a medical model not an allopathic model. The same material is taught in allopathic, osteopathic, and PA programs. Secondly, my gripe with NP's is that their training is based on a nursing model, which seems to be more of an algorithmic approach than a science-based approach. There is much more to medicine than "if X, then Y". They have attempted to design computer programs that utilize medical algorithms for diagnosis and treatment, and these programs have failed because A) they lack clinical intuition and B) they are not able to deal with scenarios that do fit pre-determined algorithms. While I realize that much of medicine does fall into predictable patterns, situations do arise when one must fall back on a thorough understanding of physiology, pathophysiology, etc... I just don't feel that NP's obtain the scientific foundation that the practice of medicine is built upon during their training. All of the PA's that I know have graduated from master's programs which provide their students with a solid, scientific, medicine-based education. For this reason, I can honestly say that I will always choose a PA over an NP. Now, I would love to hear from those who think my logic is off the mark.
PACmatthew said:A PA is a person who is trained by and with physicians, and who has to sweat it out for 14 months of clinical rotations right there next to the third year medical students. An NP is a person who completes about one fifth the amount of clinical hours in their curriculum as a PA, and has to spend their first year out of school really learning how to practice medicine. The PA profession is based on the medical model which is a watered down rushed curriculum of "medicine", while an NP curriculum is still "nursing" at its core. Where I went to school, PA's had an entire semester of learning to read EKG's for instance, while the NP students came to our class for one week to learn the basics. There is no comparrison between the education of a PA vs. an NP. However, like anything else in life, the NP profession has much better lobbyists, and thus they can practice more autonomously in certain places and with fewer restrictions. The theory behind NP training is that RN's are a natural transition to practitioners of medicine. Sadly, this is not true. Nurses, as in RN's, are highly trained medical providers that often times get the bad end of the stick from physicians, and thus they never really get to do much with their high degree of training. Some of the best PA students in my class were RN's, and when asked why they became PA's instead of NP's, they all said it was because they wanted to be able to practice with confidence and be respected. There are definitely good NP's out there but overall I think you will see that physicians favor PA's because of the very rigorous nature of PA training.
NP's fill a niche where advanced knowledge is necessary, and where most PA's aren't "touchy feely" enough to provide good care. Often times this means in OB/GYN and Peds.
pacmatthew said:An NP is a person who completes about one fifth the amount of clinical hours in their curriculum as a PA, and has to spend their first year out of school really learning how to practice medicine. The PA profession is based on the medical model which is a watered down rushed curriculum of "medicine", while an NP curriculum is still "nursing" at its core. Where I went to school, PA's had an entire semester of learning to read EKG's for instance, while the NP students came to our class for one week to learn the basics. There is no comparrison between the education of a PA vs. an NP.
BSN said:Ok, so i have to be honest... i didn't even read past the first few lines... this post is biased... I think we need to stop this... always need someone to put down and hate
Carolina Girl said:Duke's FNP curriculum
Duke's PA curriculum
Quinnipiac's FNP curriculum
Quinnipiac's PA curriculum
Western University's FNP curriculum
Western University's PA curriculum
Yale's FNP curriculum
Yale's PA curriculum
Baylor's FNP curriculum
Baylor's PA didactic curriculum
Baylor's PA clinical curriculum
I don't think it is biased or hateful to say that PAs get MUCH more education than NPs. Compare the programs for yourself, I think it is more fact than opinion.
pa's have prior training too.... I have 2 bs degrees and a masters with around 300 credit hrs....not counting a 1 yr paramedic program....very few folks go to pa school without a prior degree......billydoc said:This would've been a fair game to compare the two, if you had included the RN component which precedes the NP. You can't enter most reputable NP programs with less than RN/BSN or a BS in another health field, and at least a coupple of years as an RN. Another thing is that NP programs do not follow the medical model of education. They focus on advanced role, but from the nursing perspective. Nice try, but I think I know where most of these pi$$ing matches come from Basically, in the nutshell: NP is a step up from being an RN(although I as an RN make a lot more $$$ than many NPs ), and PA is step down from being MD/DO (in many ppl minds). So we could argue about it till cows come home. But both are seen as physician extenders, compete for the same $$$, and fill the same jobs pretty much interchangebly, depending on the State of practicing.
Good Luck to all
billydoc said:This would've been a fair game to compare the two, if you had included the RN component which precedes the NP. You can't enter most reputable NP programs with less than RN/BSN or a BS in another health field, and at least a coupple of years as an RN. Another thing is that NP programs do not follow the medical model of education. They focus on advanced role, but from the nursing perspective. Nice try, but I think I know where most of these pi$$ing matches come from Basically, in the nutshell: NP is a step up from being an RN(although I as an RN make a lot more $$$ than many NPs ), and PA is step down from being MD/DO (in many ppl minds). So we could argue about it till cows come home. But both are seen as physician extenders, compete for the same $$$, and fill the same jobs pretty much interchangebly, depending on the State of practicing.
Good Luck to all
Carolina Girl said:Every PA program I listed also requires a 4-year degree. Four of the five also require prior pt experience. Not that RN experience isn't valuable... but nurses aren't the only people who take care of patients and have valuable skills. My paramedic program was a 2-year degree, and that was after a 4-year BS in a health care related field.
This isn't a pi$$ing match, as you put it. I agree 100% with your last sentence.
Dr.MISHKA said:Not to highjack your post, but I have been wondering (as I have a somewhat limited knowledge of Pa's, while knowing a little about NP's ) which would be better for a medical salon/women's health practice. I would want to have to minimally supervise them and would want them to be able to take care of most routine health issues (no OB) and I would do procedures 1-2 days q wk (e.g minimally invasive/laser/varicose veins/etc.) any tips greatly appreciated.
And I think midlevels are great by the way.
Best wishes
The Mish
Carolina Girl said:Duke's FNP curriculum
Duke's PA curriculum
Quinnipiac's FNP curriculum
Quinnipiac's PA curriculum
Western University's FNP curriculum
Western University's PA curriculum
Yale's FNP curriculum
Yale's PA curriculum
Baylor's FNP curriculum
Baylor's PA didactic curriculum
Baylor's PA clinical curriculum
I don't think it is biased or hateful to say that PAs get MUCH more education than NPs. Compare the programs for yourself, I think it is more fact than opinion.
BSN said:Just for the records Im not a pa or np have done some research and found np to be the better choice because of the option to move around with all the different career path nursing has to offer but then to say more would be biased, hahahaha
billydoc said:This would've been a fair game to compare the two, if you had included the RN component which precedes the NP. You can't enter most reputable NP programs with less than RN/BSN or a BS in another health field, and at least a coupple of years as an RN. Another thing is that NP programs do not follow the medical model of education. They focus on advanced role, but from the nursing perspective. Nice try, but I think I know where most of these pi$$ing matches come from Basically, in the nutshell: NP is a step up from being an RN(although I as an RN make a lot more $$$ than many NPs ), and PA is step down from being MD/DO (in many ppl minds). So we could argue about it till cows come home. But both are seen as physician extenders, compete for the same $$$, and fill the same jobs pretty much interchangebly, depending on the State of practicing.
Good Luck to all
lawguil said:My opinion based on some objective factors = PA's are much better practitioners than NP's. PA's cover more material, have pre-reqs similar to a physician's, attend training full-time in the classroom, are trained using the same medical model, have longer training, are trained along side physicians, aren't subject to nursing protocols, and are properly supervised by physicians
.
zenman said:It's your opinion of course but you should have the educational background to understand what billydoc was saying in his posts...therefore don't try to compare them. I personally want the FNP route because of what the PA lacks.
lawguil said:Perhaps the provisions of each degree are slightly different (NP vs. PA). As far as practicing medicine, a PA wins hands down (in a global sense). NP's are better trained within the provisions of nursing. I suspect that this is what you might mean when you suggest that I shouldn't compare them (?).
zenman said:Yes. Perhaps nursing should leave medicine to PAs and MD/DOs and veer off into a separate profession focused more on "healing" rather than "curing."
nonlethal said:But they still do mostly the same thing: fix people. The only apparent difference is where they do it.
It all boils down to what you want out of the education, and what exactly you want to do with it (and where, state depending).
Bandit said:guys/gals---please---let this thread die.
PS: how can one ever believe they are "overtrained" in medicine. oooohhhh weeeee that is dangerous thinking
billydoc said:Zen you are the Man!
Thanks for the support. But I wouldn't hold my breath that we could get through a certain mindset which exists on this particular forum. Ppl come on here with some preconceived notions, pretending to know something about the subject they are talking about. Most of the time the loudest mouths are clueless, and just the lock steppers with the bunker mentality just rambling on with their mantra "NP bad" , "PA good" like Frankenstein .Why is it so difficult to understand that even the life itself is not that linear? So is not the approach to the Tx. Again, I've never seen any stats suggesting NPs being more risky practitioners than PAs or the MDs. All the studies, so far are quite on the contrary, suggesting the effectiveness of both PA/NP given the same setting of practice. This "I'm better than you" load of crap is nothing more than rubbish, and political turf war BS. BTW I'mnot an NP or PA but I work with both a lot. I have yet to hear/see such childishness in real life, as I see on this board. Of course there are *****s practicing in every profession. But it's more indiviual related than any given profession.
Take All!
I think I'm done with this thread for now
lawguil said:The question isn't who is better subjectively, but evaluating the education of each profession objectively. The fact is that the education is different and thus the provisions and practice of their (NP vs. PA) trade should be different.
To the contrary, NP's are FIGHTING a nasty and dirty fight for complete autonomy with no physician (medical) supervision to practice what is known as medicine. The question is how this efficient, how is is this safe, and how is this justified? Another fact is that the nursing organization is powerful politically. I have never questioned whether they were qualified to do what they were trained to do, but what they currently do or are fighting to do in which they were not trained. Their fight is malicious and self-serving. Nothing else! This is why they are under attack by some MD/DO/PA populations. L.
oldManDO2009 said:Simply allow them to unlock their patients intrinsic abilities to heal.....
once again I am on a rant (with finals just a week a way!)
back to histology and the use of garlic oil in the treatment of depression
These complementary treatments have been pushed into the mainstream and they are being hocked by unqualified people (because they lack the medical knowledge) with little or no research as to their efficacy. Now, I know someone going to link a study with a n=4 and we all should be mighty impressed but it does not change the facts that these are unproven treatments and proven therapies have a better scientific outcome.
billydoc said:For the "true believers" and the lock step dummies check out this site,please:www.ACAM.org for starters.
I guess it's only a few "renegates" from your own profession who recognize the public need. But these are practicing physicians, who live and practice in the real World.That "Big Dr" ego thing is premed to recidency deal. I guarantee you, big shot medical professionals, it will pass real quick once you'll face the reality . Go ahead flame on now, but remember...nobody cares about your precious MD/DO/PA/NP/RN/Ph.D or whatever.Someone who is really, really sick doesn't care at 3 am from which big title or Ivy league school graduate his/her help arrives. Again, it's not about you. There are always more than one way to approach a problem. Sometimes it's very important to step back, close your mouth, and open your mind. May be, just may be you don't really know it all, no matter how long you,ve trained, what big arse title you've got, or if you've got as many degrees as thermometer has
Good Luck Everyone
billydoc said:This would've been a fair game to compare the two, if you had included the RN component which precedes the NP.