Nurse propaganda

[NontradCA]

I saw this on FB, which depicts a Lego interpretation of what physicians and their extenders do. This apparently came out of a woman's health magazine, and it made me wonder how much of this propaganda was disseminated to the public. Thread may be redundant, but I think this issue should be brought up from time to time.

tl;dr weekly nurse bashing thread

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[DokterMom]

NPs have a very effective lobbying and PR effort. Physicians, take care --

 

[TBV]

I saw this on FB, which depicts a Lego interpretation of what physicians and their extenders do. This apparently came out of a woman's health magazine, and it made me wonder how much of this propaganda was disseminated to the public. Thread may be redundant, but I think this issue should be brought up from time to time.

tl;dr weekly nurse bashing thread

Kinda **** on PAs for no reason. I like how the article says they get almost 3x the clinical training of NPs but somehow suggests they shouldn't be trusted lol

 

[Doudline]

Except for the first two sentences, everything in that NP bio seems factual.

 

[olivarynucleus]

Its in a women's magazine. Women worship nurses, a lot of the time because most of them wanted to be one. Medicine has always been the profession of the evil rich privileged white man that everybody seems to hate. Couple that with the fact that everybody nowadays want to seen as a special snowflake and we are in a time where elite education and intellectualism are demonized, and physicians are in a lose-lose situation. Oh but nurses(women) can constantly tug at the heart string of the every day working man and say " See us, we are less arrogant, less educated, and less threatening and better than those evil ole doctors(males)" For people who aren't that smart, they sure came up with one hell of a marketing strategy.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

I love how the article is almost trying to brag about how NP's receive 700 hours of "supervised on the job training." Lmao, just about the equivalent of 10 weeks of residency

 

[DokterMom]

Its in a women's magazine. Women worship nurses, a lot of the time because most of them wanted to be one. Medicine has always been the profession of the evil rich privileged white man that everybody seems to hate. Couple that with the fact that everybody nowadays want to seen as a special snowflake and we are in a time where elite education and intellectualism are demonized, and physicians are in a lose-lose situation. Oh but nurses(women) can constantly tug at the heart string of the every day working man and say " See us, we are less arrogant, less educated, and less threatening and better than those evil ole doctors(males)" For people who aren't that smart, they sure came up with one hell of a marketing strategy.

Stereotype much?

 

[olivarynucleus]

Stereotype much?

Whatever.

 

[Psai]

Nps are nowhere near doctors in nursing garb. They are nurses in doctors garb and the difference is incredibly obvious to anyone with any healthcare experience. Unfortunately that leaves out the vast majority of the public as well as hospital administrators

 

[chipwhitley]

Proves again that it's not about how much you know, but how good you are at selling yourself that matters.

 

[criticalelement]

Stereotype much?

what he is saying is TRUE!!

 

[criticalelement]

Nps are nowhere near doctors in nursing garb. They are nurses in doctors garb and the difference is incredibly obvious to anyone with any healthcare experience. Unfortunately that leaves out the vast majority of the public as well as hospital administrators

Dont worry their near misses will soon become real disasters.

 

[BidingMyTime]

And this is why its been decades since I've read a "women's magazine". It's well-known (at least to people who don't read them), that most of the articles are written specifically to cater to advertisers, I wonder how many ads for colleges offering NP degrees was in that issue (or will be in the next issue?)

 

[ACSurgeon]

I saw this on FB, which depicts a Lego interpretation of what physicians and their extenders do. This apparently came out of a woman's health magazine, and it made me wonder how much of this propaganda was disseminated to the public. Thread may be redundant, but I think this issue should be brought up from time to time.

tl;dr weekly nurse bashing thread

Good thing I wield a scalpel

 

[W19]

This is the kind of garbage that NP organizations are selling to the public and their students. One acquaintance I worked with who is attending NP school now suggested that her program is harder than med school since she is learning in 2 years what med school teaches in 4 years...

 

[Chemdude]

This is the kind of garbage that NP organizations are selling to the public and their students. One acquaintance I worked with who is attending NP school now suggested that her program is harder than med school since she is learning in 2 years what med school teaches in 4 years...

lol this is so true. It's also funny when NP's and PA's claim that getting into NP and PA school is more competitive than MD school. Our school has a PA program, so PA students have some lectures with us. Their tests were a joke compared to ours.

 

[amichel]

Its in a women's magazine. Women worship nurses, a lot of the time because most of them wanted to be one. Medicine has always been the profession of the evil rich privileged white man that everybody seems to hate. Couple that with the fact that everybody nowadays want to seen as a special snowflake and we are in a time where elite education and intellectualism are demonized, and physicians are in a lose-lose situation. Oh but nurses(women) can constantly tug at the heart string of the every day working man and say " See us, we are less arrogant, less educated, and less threatening and better than those evil ole doctors(males)" For people who aren't that smart, they sure came up with one hell of a marketing strategy.

Wow, your post has made me realize that as a woman, I've always harboured a secret desire to be a nurse. Better drop out of med school now.

 

[olivarynucleus]

Wow, your post has made me realize that as a woman, I've always harboured a secret desire to be a nurse. Better drop out of med school now.

I said that a a lot of women wan to be nurses not all of them of course, please spare me the bs.

 

[amichel]

I said that a a lot of women wan to be nurses not all of them of course, please spare me the bs.

That doesn't make your post any more true, any less of a generalization, any more intelligent or any less sexist.

 

[Chemdude]

That doesn't make your post any more true, any less of a generalization, any more intelligent or any less sexist.

His post wasn't sexist. He's exaggerating, but most of his statement is true. 90% of nurses are women and nursing has traditionally been a women's profession.

 

[amichel]

His post wasn't sexist. He's exaggerating, but most of his statement is true. 90% of nurses are women and nursing has traditionally been a women's profession.

Neither of those statements are sexist. What is sexist is saying that most women want to be nurses and that the fact that they supposedly hate "evil white rich male doctors" is because they are women.

The stupid part is that I actually agree that the article in the OP is scary nurse propaganda. I was just responding to a jerk post.

 

[Psai]

Neither of those statements are sexist. What is sexist is saying that most women want to be nurses and that the fact that they supposedly hate "evil white rich male doctors" is because they are women.

The stupid part is that I actually agree that the article in the OP is scary nurse propaganda. I was just responding to a jerk post.

Get over yourself

 

[PL198]

Neither of those statements are sexist. What is sexist is saying that most women want to be nurses and that the fact that they supposedly hate "evil white rich male doctors" is because they are women.

The stupid part is that I actually agree that the article in the OP is scary nurse propaganda. I was just responding to a jerk post.

no stop throwing out buzzwords to try to discredit the person. calling someone sexist or homophobic isn't how grown-ups argue. that's how the 20 yr old who is enamored with their political science classes argues

 

[Stagg737]

Except for the first two sentences, everything in that NP bio seems factual.

If the statement that NP's can do anything physicians can do other than 'wield a scalpel' is true I know where I'm going next time I want a Schedule II narcotic...

 

[DokterMom]

Neither of those statements are sexist. What is sexist is saying that most women want to be nurses and that the fact that they supposedly hate "evil white rich male doctors" is because they are women.

The stupid part is that I actually agree that the article in the OP is scary nurse propaganda. I was just responding to a jerk post.

Agreed. If posters can confine the sneers to 'midlevels who want to portray themselves as just-as-good as doctors' (instead of all women or most women) then our objection goes away.

 

[Say]

Get over yourself

SDN: A place where you can be a dick to girls without getting slapped

 

[DokterMom]

SDN: A place where you can be a dick to girls without getting slapped

Welcome to the Internet

 

[olivarynucleus]

SDN: A place where you can be a dick to girls without getting slapped

If I'm arguing with a girl and she slaps me, I'm gonna slap her ass back. If I didn't physically attack you, don't physically attack me. Equality.

 

[wjs010]

What Olivery said is pretty true. Not getting into whether it was sexist... But the majority was true.

Also, we med students/docs are too busy going to med school for 4 yrs, and training for 4-6 more , and working 60 hrs/week to lobby that much

 

[W19]

To physicians out there: Stop hiring NP! You are destroying your profession for a buck...

 

[Say]

If I'm arguing with a girl and she slaps me, I'm gonna slap her ass back. If I didn't physically attack you, don't physically attack me. Equality.

Wow.

 

[olivarynucleus]

Wow.

 

[235009]

The future for MDs is in consultative and specialty fields. Technology has made it easier than ever to deliver care to those with basic complaints and basic medical problems. It doesn't take 4 years of med school and 3 years of residency to manage diabetes or hypertension in an outpatient setting. Choose your field and build your niche wisely.

 

[Chemdude]

The future for MDs is in consultative and specialty fields. Technology has made it easier than ever to deliver care to those with basic complaints and basic medical problems. It doesn't take 4 years of med school and 3 years of residency to manage diabetes or hypertension in an outpatient setting. Choose your field and build your niche wisely.

Over-specialization is fragmenting the medical system. A better solution than employing mid-levels would be to increase incentives for going into primary care while scaling back on the number of specialty positions. This would tremendously increase the number of people interested in going into primary care. The scope of practice for PC should be greater than what it currently is. I don't think PC should just be the "gateway to medical care". PC should be taking care of complex medical issues that do not require referral to a specialist. The current system results in referrals regardless of the complexity of medical issues.

Of course, this is a pretty idealistic viewpoint...Unfortunately, I think we're too immersed in the current system for real changes to occur.

 

[Mad Jack]

The future for MDs is in consultative and specialty fields. Technology has made it easier than ever to deliver care to those with basic complaints and basic medical problems. It doesn't take 4 years of med school and 3 years of residency to manage diabetes or hypertension in an outpatient setting. Choose your field and build your niche wisely.

While technology may have made some things easier, it has also made many patients far more difficult to manage. There are hundreds of medications, thousands of diseases, thousands of diagnostic tests, etc. We can't completely hand over care to midlevels because even if they miss one out of a hundred diagnoses, or have a complication rate that is a percent higher care of their lack of training, they will potentially kill hundreds of thousands of people per year. That aside, NPs are encroaching into every area of medicine except surgery, pathology, radiation oncology, and radiology, leaving even specialties unsafe. There's an independent derm nurse nearby, for instance. Given that we all can't (and most of us don't want) to be surgeons, we need to find a way to prove our worth and hold as much turf for as long as we can in every field, so that hopefully we can all be gainfully employed until retirement.

The big difference between physician lobbying groups and nurse ones is that they fight as one voice, while many on our end are willing to say, "oh, not my field, go ahead and encroach." That "not my problem" mentality is going to eventually lead to nurses with full practice rights as the public says, "well if they can do A and B and C, why not X and Y and Z?"

 

[DokterMom]

What Olivery said is pretty true. Not getting into whether it was sexist... But the majority was true.

Also, we med students/docs are too busy going to med school for 4 yrs, and training for 4-6 more , and working 60 hrs/week to lobby that much

'Lobbying' does not equal demonstrating in the streets or time-consuming sit-ins. More often, it means writing a check to a lobbying firm to lobby effectively on your behalf. And before you say that med students don't have any money (I know, I know) let me point out that physicians do, and they need to part with a bit more of it to protect their future interests and the welfare of their patients.

There's a proper place for NPs; and in an appropriate role, NPs have a lot to contribute to US healthcare. But if you let the NP lobby define that role and that place, don't be surprised if you don't like the results.

 

[Mad Jack]

Over-specialization is fragmenting the medical system. A better solution than employing mid-levels would be to increase incentives for going into primary care while scaling back on the number of specialty positions. This would tremendously increase the number of people interested in going into primary care. The scope of practice for PC should be greater than what it currently is. I don't think PC should just be the "gateway to medical care". PC should be taking care of complex medical issues that do not require referral to a specialist. The current system results in referrals regardless of the complexity of medical issues.

Of course, this is a pretty idealistic viewpoint...Unfortunately, I think we're too immersed in the current system for real changes to occur.

I wish we still had full practice primary care in more of the country. Fifty years ago you could treat some basic complaints, handle a trauma, deliver a baby, and amputate a leg in the same day. The lifestyle was rough, however, and I believe that's the biggest reason we got the specialization system of today- it's less taxing to focus on one thing than be a provider of everything. You can also get better at it, but at the expense of all other skills. It sucks though- I feel like the FPs of old were "real doctors" and we're just a shadow of that care of lifestyle concerns, bureaucracy, and reimbursement issues.

 

[235009]

Over-specialization is fragmenting the medical system. A better solution than employing mid-levels would be to increase incentives for going into primary care while scaling back on the number of specialty positions. This would tremendously increase the number of people interested in going into primary care. The scope of practice for PC should be greater than what it currently is. I don't think PC should just be the "gateway to medical care". PC should be taking care of complex medical issues that do not require referral to a specialist. The current system results in referrals regardless of the complexity of medical issues.

Of course, this is a pretty idealistic viewpoint...Unfortunately, I think we're too immersed in the current system for real changes to occur.

I'm glad you realize what you just said isn't realistic. That'll become more obvious when you're a resident.

The over-specialization of the medical system is a function of the explosion in medical knowledge over the past 30 years. There's no turning back. Within our lifetimes there have been an exponential increase in the number of treatments for some diseases: HIV, MS, rheumatoid arthritis, hepatitis C, etc etc etc. PCPs can no longer keep up and provide adequate care for all of these problems...you need specialists.

On top of that the medical insurance companies pay PCPs a few bucks per patient so you have all of 5 minutes to see each patient. Doesn't leave much time to manage everything on your own so you'll just end up referring cases based on time constraints alone.

I don't see the rise of physician extenders and midlevels as that much of a problem. Medicine is practiced as a team and they provide another body with time to do things you don't have time to do. You or your practice can bill for their work. Physicians aren't losing the argument because we are disjointed, the midlevels are winning because they're argument is that they're cheaper and that's all politicians need to hear. Once you start practicing you'll see that the system is completely geared toward "what is cheaper" and not what will make the patient healthier, live longer or have better quality of life... until someone is dying then we throw as much money at them as possible just to extend their life for 15 more seconds.

 

[Chemdude]

I wish we still had full practice primary care in more of the country. Fifty years ago you could treat some basic complaints, handle a trauma, deliver a baby, and amputate a leg in the same day. The lifestyle was rough, however, and I believe that's the biggest reason we got the specialization system of today- it's less taxing to focus on one thing than be a provider of everything. You can also get better at it, but at the expense of all other skills. It sucks though- I feel like the FPs of old were "real doctors" and we're just a shadow of that care of lifestyle concerns, bureaucracy, and reimbursement issues.

I completely agree. I have worked with some really old-school doctors and they are very different from us "Neophysicians". They have a completely different mentality. They were trained on the basis of field experience while we are trained on the basis of EBM. Although they had a rougher lifestyle, they were probably happier because they had more autonomy and were much more respected in society than we are today.

 

[Chemdude]

I'm glad you realize what you just said isn't realistic. That'll become more obvious when you're a resident.

The over-specialization of the medical system is a function of the explosion in medical knowledge over the past 30 years. There's no turning back. Within our lifetimes there have been an exponential increase in the number of treatments for some diseases: HIV, MS, rheumatoid arthritis, hepatitis C, etc etc etc. PCPs can no longer keep up and provide adequate care for all of these problems...you need specialists.

On top of that the medical insurance companies pay PCPs a few bucks per patient so you have all of 5 minutes to see each patient. Doesn't leave much time to manage everything on your own so you'll just end up referring cases based on time constraints alone.

I don't see the rise of physician extenders and midlevels as that much of a problem. Medicine is practiced as a team and they provide another body with time to do things you don't have time to do. You or your practice can bill for their work. Physicians aren't losing the argument because we are disjointed, the midlevels are winning because they're argument is that they're cheaper and that's all politicians need to hear. Once you start practicing you'll see that the system is completely geared toward "what is cheaper" and not what will make the patient healthier, live longer or have better quality of life... until someone is dying then we throw as much money at them as possible just to extend their life for 15 more seconds.

I understand that medical knowledge has increased exponentially in recent years. Nonetheless, I don't think that this should necessitate that everyone become a specialist. Why are only 20% of IM residents going into primary care? Do we really need more orthopedic surgeons to do hip replacements on 75-year-old ladies with 5 comorbidities? There are other countries with comparable quality of healthcare that don't have nearly as much specialists as we do. For example, look at the Canadian system; only a small fraction of each medical school class chooses to go into a specialty field.

 

[235009]

I understand that medical knowledge has increased exponentially in recent years. Nonetheless, I don't think that this should necessitate that everyone become a specialist. Why are only 20% of IM residents going into primary care? Do we really need more orthopedic surgeons to do hip replacements on 75-year-old ladies with 5 comorbidities? There are other countries with comparable quality of healthcare that don't have nearly as much specialists as we do. For example, look at the Canadian system; only a small fraction of each medical school class chooses to go into a specialty field.

Again I think you're taking a very idealistic view. Back in the day when you just gave steroids to treat any of 6 different diseases and suggested bedrest and fluids for many others it was easy to be a jack of all trades who also sees their own inpatients. The increase in medical knowledge absolutely necessitates specialization. When I'm talking about specialization I'm not talking about orthopedic surgeons either. The choice usually isn't stay in primary care or become a surgical subspecialist. I'm talking about medical subspecialists.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm glad you realize what you just said isn't realistic. That'll become more obvious when you're a resident.

The over-specialization of the medical system is a function of the explosion in medical knowledge over the past 30 years. There's no turning back. Within our lifetimes there have been an exponential increase in the number of treatments for some diseases: HIV, MS, rheumatoid arthritis, hepatitis C, etc etc etc. PCPs can no longer keep up and provide adequate care for all of these problems...you need specialists.

On top of that the medical insurance companies pay PCPs a few bucks per patient so you have all of 5 minutes to see each patient. Doesn't leave much time to manage everything on your own so you'll just end up referring cases based on time constraints alone.

I don't see the rise of physician extenders and midlevels as that much of a problem. Medicine is practiced as a team and they provide another body with time to do things you don't have time to do. You or your practice can bill for their work. Physicians aren't losing the argument because we are disjointed, the midlevels are winning because they're argument is that they're cheaper and that's all politicians need to hear. Once you start practicing you'll see that the system is completely geared toward "what is cheaper" and not what will make the patient healthier, live longer or have better quality of life... until someone is dying then we throw as much money at them as possible just to extend their life for 15 more seconds.

See, and I'd argue that the explosion in medical knowledge is exactly why midlevels shouldn't be providing primary care independently. A referral is only good if you can spot the condition to refer in the first place, and most of a patient's post-referral follow-up will occur with their PCP.

 

[235009]

See, and I'd argue that the explosion in medical knowledge is exactly why midlevels shouldn't be providing primary care independently. A referral is only good if you can spot the condition to refer in the first place, and most of a patient's post-referral follow-up will occur with their PCP.

referrals aren't usually "i've diagnosed this person with X, refer to Y specialist" ...it's usually "please help me figure out and work up this person's SOB/CP/arthritis/renal dysfunction/etc" ....as long as you know what's beyond your scope or can recognize when the basic treatment isn't working then it's fine. NPs end up making way more referrals because their medical knowledge only goes so far... that's why the future for MDs is being on the receiving end of those referrals.

 

[Mad Jack]

referrals aren't usually "i've diagnosed this person with X, refer to Y specialist" ...it's usually "please help me figure out and work up this person's SOB/CP/arthritis/renal dysfunction/etc" ....as long as you know what's beyond your scope or can recognize when the basic treatment isn't working then it's fine. NPs end up making way more referrals because their medical knowledge only goes so far... that's why the future for MDs is being on the receiving end of those referrals.

Or we could just save money by having less referrals going out in the first place. I've read a couple of papers that show physicians and NPs are a damn near break even point financially for insurers and the government due to the excess tests and referrals generated by NPs.

 

[235009]

Or we could just save money by having less referrals going out in the first place. I've read a couple of papers that show physicians and NPs are a damn near break even point financially for insurers and the government due to the excess tests and referrals generated by NPs.

Are you new to this country and it's absurd healthcare and political systems? All we care about is up front cost!! As far as the politicians are concerned preventive care costs money up front so we're not going to do it ...no thought is given to the down-stream costs. Same here... NPs cost less up front.... end of discussion. The voters are too dumb to grapple with the intricacies of actual cost and repercussions.

 

[Mad Jack]

Are you new to this country and it's absurd healthcare and political systems? All we care about is up front cost!! As far as the politicians are concerned preventive care costs money up front so we're not going to do it ...no thought is given to the down-stream costs. Same here... NPs cost less up front.... end of discussion. The voters are too dumb to grapple with the intricacies of actual cost and repercussions.

I know it seems futile. But if we were smart enough and lobbied well enough and stuck together, there's a chance we could get them to see things for what they are. It's a stand worth making.

 

[amichel]

I understand that medical knowledge has increased exponentially in recent years. Nonetheless, I don't think that this should necessitate that everyone become a specialist. Why are only 20% of IM residents going into primary care? Do we really need more orthopedic surgeons to do hip replacements on 75-year-old ladies with 5 comorbidities? There are other countries with comparable quality of healthcare that don't have nearly as much specialists as we do. For example, look at the Canadian system; only a small fraction of each medical school class chooses to go into a specialty field.

Actually, about 55% go into specialty training here in Canada.

I think the difference is that here, internal medicine isn't primary care. Neither is pediatrics or OB/GYN. So when you consider the amount of people in those fields who just do primary care, I think the percentages would actually be quite similar. (Although that actually serves to support the point you're trying to make - haha)

 

[PL198]

Again I think you're taking a very idealistic view. Back in the day when you just gave steroids to treat any of 6 different diseases and suggested bedrest and fluids for many others it was easy to be a jack of all trades who also sees their own inpatients. The increase in medical knowledge absolutely necessitates specialization. When I'm talking about specialization I'm not talking about orthopedic surgeons either. The choice usually isn't stay in primary care or become a surgical subspecialist. I'm talking about medical subspecialists.

Imagine how easy studying was back then. I wonder how many pages FA was the first year it was out

 

[PL198]

SDN: A place where you can be a dick to girls without getting slapped

planet earth: a place where apparently being contradictory to someone entitles them to assault you. seems logical

 

[Kaustikos]

Imagine how easy studying was back then. I wonder how many pages FA was the first year it was out

Yeah,
But back then Step scores wasn't such a stress inducing mind ****.