PhD/PsyD Nursing Student interested in PsyD

[CalebPA]

Hello,

I am a nursing student at a nationally ranked private Christian college. I am interested in becoming a psychologist because of several experiences that I have with working with psych patients. I would like to go to grad school and get my PsyD almost immediately after I graduate with my nursing degree. Although I enjoy nursing, there are many aspects that I do not like. My main worry is that I have a fairly low GPA (3.1), butI am planning on minoring in psychology. So far my psych GPA is around 3.5 and by the time I graduate I will have three years of part time work as a caregiver in a memory care facility. I plan on getting a job as a psych RN when I graduate and hopefully move onto grad school shortly after.

My question is am I a good candidate for PsyD school? I am looking into Biola, Pepperdine, or Fuller but I am open to other options. What can I do to increase the likelihood of being accepted?

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[erg923]

what about psych NP? Only two more years your RN.

 

[WisNeuro]

Need more specifics. What do you want to do when it's all said and done?

 

[bcliff]

I recommend psych NP - you can prescribe (you'll get reimbursed higher than a psychologist), it takes less time, and it's likely cheaper in the long run than most/any PsyD program

 

[CalebPA]

Need more specifics. What do you want to do when it's all said and done?

I would like to give psychotherapy and diagnose conditions. I would like to do something with geriatrics, like diagnosing and treating Alzheimers and dementia. I don't want to see a patient for ten minutes and move to the next one.

 

[CalebPA]

My main question is can I get into a decent PsyD program with a gpa of 3.1?

 

[erg923]

My main question is can I get into a decent PsyD program with a gpa of 3.1?

probably not

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, if you want to diagnose Alzheimer's, that's more in the neuro field. As of now, there aren't any reputable PsyD's in that area. If you want to work in a therapeutic setting with gero, I'd say social work is the way to go.

 

[erg923]

I would like to give psychotherapy and diagnose conditions. I would like to do something with geriatrics, like diagnosing and treating Alzheimers and dementia. I don't want to see a patient for ten minutes and move to the next one.

Then dont.

Is there reason you cant do the above with a psych NP? Although AD is really the domain of neuropsychologists and neurologists.

 

[CalebPA]

Then dont.

Is there reason you cant do the above with a psych NP? Although AD is really the domain of neuropsychologists and neurologists.

I just don't know if that's the avenue I want to go. I heard that psych NPs have even less of a relationship with their patients than psych RNs. Psych NP would be very convenient for me because the school I go to has a PMHNP program and is very reasonably priced.

 

[erg923]

I heard that psych NPs have even less of a relationship with their patients than psych RNs.

The degree doesn't cause that, the person does.

 

[JeyRo]

I recommend psych NP - you can prescribe (you'll get reimbursed higher than a psychologist), it takes less time, and it's likely cheaper in the long run than most/any PsyD program

Absolutely. It's telling that NPs can negotiate things like sign-on bonuses and the like when applying for jobs, while psychologists basically have to beg for positions.

Well, if you want to diagnose Alzheimer's, that's more in the neuro field. As of now, there aren't any reputable PsyD's in that area. If you want to work in a therapeutic setting with gero, I'd say social work is the way to go.

There aren't any reputable PsyD's diagnosing and treating Alzheimer's? I'm not a PsyD myself but there's hordes of VA geropsychologists (many who work in CLCs and some due to receive their geropsych ABPP probably late this year) who would likely beg to differ. Unless we want to quibble about what's entailed in 'treating' a dementia....

 

[JeyRo]

I just don't know if that's the avenue I want to go. I heard that psych NPs have even less of a relationship with their patients than psych RNs. Psych NP would be very convenient for me because the school I go to has a PMHNP program and is very reasonably priced.

Do the NP program. I would love to see more NPs specializing in geropsychiatry myself

 

[CalebPA]

Do the NP program. I would love to see more NPs specializing in geropsychiatry myself

Do you know how much psychotherapy a NP in gerophsychiatry would actually do?

 

[JeyRo]

Do you know how much psychotherapy a NP in gerophsychiatry would actually do?

I couldn't tell you, but nurses are generally regarded as quite competent to deliver counseling, including mental health counseling services.

 

[WisNeuro]

There aren't any reputable PsyD's diagnosing and treating Alzheimer's? I'm not a PsyD myself but there's hordes of VA geropsychologists (many who work in CLCs and some due to receive their geropsych ABPP probably late this year) who would likely beg to differ. Unless we want to quibble about what's entailed in 'treating' a dementia....

As someone in the specialty of Npsych, I can tell you that there is not a single PsyD Neuropsych track that is regarded with any respect from the top programs. Maybe with other specialties, but not npsych.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

As someone in the specialty of Npsych, I can tell you that there is not a single PsyD Neuropsych track that is regarded with any respect from the top programs. Maybe with other specialties, but not npsych.

Thank you for speaking for the field. I'd recommend actually working in the field for at least a bit before you try and speak for it.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you for speaking for the field. I'd recommend actually working in the field for at least a bit before you try and speak for it.

Of course. Generally speaking, there are maybe a handful of NPsych tracks actually worth some salt. After that, you better have a letter writer who is regarded highly within the field.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I couldn't tell you, but nurses are generally regarded as quite competent to deliver counseling, including mental health counseling services.

Yep, it's probably going to depend in part on your training (i.e., how competent are you to delivery psychotherapy), and in part on your values--some jobs will likely want you to see numerous patients in a med check sort of model, while other employers may be more willing to let you conduct more therapy.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

I just don't know if that's the avenue I want to go. I heard that psych NPs have even less of a relationship with their patients than psych RNs. Psych NP would be very convenient for me because the school I go to has a PMHNP program and is very reasonably priced.

Hmmm. Yeah, that's definitely not true. You're going to build relationships with your patients based off of months and even years of seeing them. Granted, you might have more patients than you will at the RN level. If you want to do geropsych you should definitely consider PMHNP. The government is literally throwing money at any NP student who wants to do geri. For example, my program basically hands over 20k to any student in the PMHNP program with a vague interest in geri. As others have stated, there are more jobs and the pay is better for a psych NP, however, you have to make sure you want to prescribe. Also, in geripsych, you will be responsible for managing physical health problems to some degree as well as psychiatric ones. Many of the geripsych people I know do H&Ps routinely, manage conditions in conjunction with the PCP, etc. No one is going to hire you to do only therapy. You can absolutely incorporate therapy into your practice, but your medication management skills will be what attracts you to an employer, at least initially. Once you have some experience then you can more easily bargain to do more therapy, though you'll probably have to take a pay cut.

I don't think getting a Psy D from a very expensive program makes any kind of business sense, since psychologists typically start out making ~60k. PMHNPs start at almost double (~110 in my area). One of the RNs at my current clinical site is also a PsyD from a FSPS. She works as a floor nurse 'to pay the bills' (according to her) and does her psychology practice on the side.

 

[JeyRo]

As someone in the specialty of Npsych, I can tell you that there is not a single PsyD Neuropsych track that is regarded with any respect from the top programs. Maybe with other specialties, but not npsych.

That may be true. But there's really more to performing a truly useful dementia diagnostic exam than just skill with neuropsychological testing, interpretation, and report-writing (although that's certainly part of it).

 

[WisNeuro]

That may be true. But there's really more to performing a truly useful dementia diagnostic exam than just skill with neuropsychological testing, interpretation, and report-writing (although that's certainly part of it).

Exactly, which is what you will learn on an APA-accredited internship and subsequent postdoc that adheres to Houston Conference guidelines.

 

[JeyRo]

Exactly, which is what you will learn on an APA-accredited internship and subsequent postdoc that adheres to Houston Conference guidelines.

Just to clarify, are you taking the position that PhD-degreed neuropsychologists who have completed APA-accredited internships and postdocs adhering to Houston Conference guidelines are the only ones "reputable" enough to perform dementia diagnostic evals? Really, just asking.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just to clarify, are you taking the position that neuropsychologists who have completed APA-accredited internships and postdocs adhering to Houston Conference guidelines are the only ones "reputable" enough to perform useful and competent dementia diagnostic evals?

No, neurologists do it all the time as well. But, while anyone can do a good interview for dementia, at times you really do need testing to differentiate between normal aging and the variety of degenerative disorders that may be present. Far too often is it misdiagnosed, people started on useless ACHesterase inhibs, or the type of dementia is misdiagnosed. With that, I am taking the position that one must be adequately trained to do a diagnostic assessment that includes neuropsychological testing. That testing is oftentimes very useful, and sometimes the linchpin, of the diagnostic process.

 

[JeyRo]

No, neurologists do it all the time as well. But, while anyone can do a good interview for dementia, at times you really do need testing to differentiate between normal aging and the variety of degenerative disorders that may be present. Far too often is it misdiagnosed, people started on useless ACHesterase inhibs, or the type of dementia is misdiagnosed. With that, I am taking the position that one must be adequately trained to do a diagnostic assessment that includes neuropsychological testing. That testing is oftentimes very useful, and sometimes the linchpin, of the diagnostic process.

All very true.

I guess really your comment was more about the crappy neuropsychology tracks being offered in PsyD programs? I was attempting to take umbrage on behalf of my PsyD geropsych colleagues, but you're not giving me major traction. ;-)

As an aside, I've also seen dementia evals written by neuropsychologists that simply threw extensive batteries at subjects, but failed to take clinical history into proper account, so the conclusions were just muddled. Another one I recall reviewing recently entailed a brief, perfunctory testing eval (really a COGNISTAT plus a brief history) that just didn't offer an adequate enough sampling of test data to paint a useful or accurate picture.

The former was a neuropsychologist at a private hospital (I think a PsyD, actually) so, your comment might hold water there - the latter, however, was an eval performed by a VA neuropsychologist who's been around for years. Both were evals of patients I know very well.

 

[WisNeuro]

All very true.

I guess really your comment was more about the crappy neuropsychology tracks being offered in PsyD programs? I was attempting to take umbrage on behalf of my PsyD geropsych colleagues, but you're not giving me major traction. ;-)

As an aside, I've also seen dementia evals written by neuropsychologists that simply threw extensive batteries at subjects, but failed to take clinical history into proper account, so the conclusions were just muddled. Another one I recall reviewing recently entailed a brief, perfunctory testing eval (really a COGNISTAT plus a brief history) that just didn't offer an adequate enough sampling of test data to paint a useful or accurate picture.

The former was a neuropsychologist at a private hospital (I think a PsyD, actually) so, your comment might hold water there - the latter, however, was an eval performed by a VA neuropsychologist who's been around for years. Both were evals of patients I know very well.

There are always anecdotal instances for any issue, but this is a specialty where it is imperative to know the stats (development, sensitivity/specificity, validity, etc) of a variety of instruments to make clinical decisions. Those people who don't have a very good background in research and stats struggle and/or deliver subpar clinical work. I just haven't seen a PsyD program that offers that. Also, anyone who relies solely on the Cognistat for evals shoudl really have their license stripped. Unfortunately, some of that may be institutional pressure. In some VA's where they don't have adequate neuro services, I've heard about 6+ month backlogs for one person to sort through. They then resort to quick evals (think RBANS) to clear the logjam. This is more rare now, but was fairly commonplace 10ish years ago.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There are always anecdotal instances for any issue...

True...

Those people who don't have a very good background in research and stats struggle and/or deliver subpar clinical work. I just haven't seen a PsyD program that offers that.

Nice generalization....though the field likes to deal in facts. How do all of those "subpar" PsyDs secure neuro fellowships through the match?

Also, anyone who relies solely on the Cognistat for evals shoudl really have their license stripped.

Agreed...but what does this have to do with the current discussion? Your inference is that Psy.Ds are doing this...? If this is your opinion that's fine, but passing it off as a vague inference is not helpful to the discussion.

 

[WisNeuro]

True...



Nice generalization....though the field likes to deal in facts. How do all of those "subpar" PsyDs secure neuro fellowships through the match?

The cognistat issue wasn't related to the current thread, just responding to a specific point made.

As for the matching issue. APPCN doesn't provide as many stats as APPIC does, so I can only go by the sites I'm involved in as well as several TD's that I know. At least from this sample, these programs are not competitive for many of the top sites. I would love to see the entire match breakdown outlined, but am not aware of this full data presented somewhere.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would love to see the entire match breakdown outlined, but am not aware of this full data presented somewhere.

That'd be an interesting data set to look at; I'd be up for analyzing it if APPIC is willing to release it. Ya know..if I can figure out how to use all of them confusing number programs.

 

[WisNeuro]

That'd be an interesting data set to look at; I'd be up for analyzing it if APPIC is willing to release it. Ya know..if I can figure out how to use all of them confusing number programs.

I don't know who handles the APPCN stuff, maybe Doug Bodin. Another potential problem is that while there are a core group of places in the match, other sites vacillate in and out. There would also not be statistics for fellowships outside of the match.

 

[edieb]

Hmmm. Yeah, that's definitely not true. You're going to build relationships with your patients based off of months and even years of seeing them. Granted, you might have more patients than you will at the RN level. If you want to do geropsych you should definitely consider PMHNP. The government is literally throwing money at any NP student who wants to do geri. For example, my program basically hands over 20k to any student in the PMHNP program with a vague interest in geri. As others have stated, there are more jobs and the pay is better for a psych NP, however, you have to make sure you want to prescribe. Also, in geripsych, you will be responsible for managing physical health problems to some degree as well as psychiatric ones. Many of the geripsych people I know do H&Ps routinely, manage conditions in conjunction with the PCP, etc. No one is going to hire you to do only therapy. You can absolutely incorporate therapy into your practice, but your medication management skills will be what attracts you to an employer, at least initially. Once you have some experience then you can more easily bargain to do more therapy, though you'll probably have to take a pay cut.

I don't think getting a Psy D from a very expensive program makes any kind of business sense, since psychologists typically start out making ~60k. PMHNPs start at almost double (~110 in my area). One of the RNs at my current clinical site is also a PsyD from a FSPS. She works as a floor nurse 'to pay the bills' (according to her) and does her psychology practice on the side.

OMG, how embarassing for the field