NYU vs Mount Sinai

[Pkboi24]

Which school's IM program will better prepare you for a competitive fellowship? I looked at the match list for both schools but couldn't decide. Mount sinai also doesn't divulge the number of people that don't match whereas NYU has only had 1 person go unmatched in the past 5 years (cards). I think I will really enjoy the amazing clinical training at Bellevue but it seems like Mount Sinai has more research available for its residents. Mount sinai is also ranked higher in Cards and GI on US News. I know this doesn't mean much, but I feel like reputation will mean more when it comes to fellowship since it's your last stop before the job market.

Anyone care to throw in their 2 cents?

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[Apollyon]

I did a prelim year of IM at Elmhurst 8 years ago, so, as a prelim, all of my seniors were MSH IM residents (the Sinai interns got Elmhurst seniors, a few of whom were superior, but others were not to the level of the MSH). I was satisfied with the strength of the IM residents from MSH. I did my residency in EM, though, at Duke, and I think that only the top 25% of the MSH IM residents were Duke-level (but, then again, I wasn't Duke level, but slid in under the radar). Interestingly, though, there was an Elmhurst resident and an MSH resident both applying for endocrine that year (I don't know if at the same locations), and the Elmhurst resident matched at a high-powered place in Texas, but the MSH resident didn't match.

NYU has Bellevue for their "county" hospital, with Elmhurst for the MSH equivalent. Both have a LOT of poverty and people from the 3rd world (there's a doc at Bellevue with an exclusive Hansen's disease practice), but MSH will cross Queens, Manhattan, and into Jersey, whereas NYU is south Manhattan, only.

These are just some observations, but I'm sorry I can't be more on target as to your specific questions.

 

[jbz24]

Both are great programs so if you specifically liked one more than the other, by all means rank that one higher.

That being said, Sinai has a better reputation and the residents do much better for fellowship match than NYU residents do. If you're thinking GI, Sinai's the place to be in NY (even more so than Columbia). If I remember correctly, last year 2 matched into Hopkins for GI and 3 stayed at Sinai (none were chiefs). Sinai has one of the top GI programs in the country, definitely the strongest in NY, at least historically speaking.

I just took a look at NYU's cardiology matches on their website, and it looks nothing like I remember when I interviewed last year. I remember there being very few internal matches for NYU (something like less than 5 over 5 years). Now there seems to be more. Maybe they started to include those who are fast tracking into their match lists. Anyway, both are great programs for cardiology. For Sinai, there are definitely stronger faculty present than at NYU (meaning more research opportunities and people who will help you when it comes time to apply for fellowship), but at the same time, there is more of a disconnect between the internal medicine department and the cardiology department (meaning the cardiology department sometimes feels like a completely different entity and not a subspecialty of medicine). But if you want to work alongside some of the biggest names in cardiology (i.e. Valentin Fuster), then Sinai is a better option. This is not to belittle NYU's cardiology program though, it is also excellent, and many of the Sinai residents opt to go to fellowship there (we generally have 1-2 match there every year).

 

[gutonc]

From the "30,000 foot view" they're virtually identical programs. Both are well-regarded 3 hospital (Univ/VA/County) programs that turn out excellent clinicians. NYU spends more time @ Bellevue, MSSM spends more time at MSH. NYUs hospitals are all within spitting distance of each other, MSSM's hospitals are spread through 3 of the 5 boroughs. Outside of GI (which MSSM is a clear national leader), NYU is probably more respected on a national basis but those in the know are aware of the strong training, education and research @ MSSM.

Personally, I liked MSSM more than NYU but YMMV. Either one will put you in a good position to do whatever you want in the future. Choose the program you like better.

 

[HarryGary]

From the "30,000 foot view" they're virtually identical programs. Both are well-regarded 3 hospital (Univ/VA/County) programs that turn out excellent clinicians. NYU spends more time @ Bellevue, MSSM spends more time at MSH. NYUs hospitals are all within spitting distance of each other, MSSM's hospitals are spread through 3 of the 5 boroughs. Outside of GI (which MSSM is a clear national leader), NYU is probably more respected on a national basis but those in the know are aware of the strong training, education and research @ MSSM.

Personally, I liked MSSM more than NYU but YMMV. Either one will put you in a good position to do whatever you want in the future. Choose the program you like better.

Both are good programs, but from the 300 foot view, (i.e. if you're from the east coast) MSSM is a step up.

By no means is NYU bad though.

 

[gutonc]

Both are good programs, but from the 300 foot view, (i.e. if you're from the east coast) MSSM is a step up.

By no means is NYU bad though.

Agreed. If you never plan to leave NYC or you're doing GI, MSSM is the clear first choice. Outside of the NY metro area though, NYU still has a better overall reputation (probably for the same reason Yale has such a good rep...name recognition from the undergrad program). MSSM is definitely on the rise nationally though and like I said, as a NYer at the time of the Match, I ranked it much higher than NYU (#2 in fact, just below where I matched).

 

[Pkboi24]

What about the clinical training though? When I went to NYU, I saw tons of interesting pts with what would constitute as a "herd" of zebras. When I went to Mount Sinai, it seemed like they all just had cardiac or renal failure plus dehydration and rhabdomyolysis. I am worried that I will not be as competent a physician coming out of a program that does the majority of its training in a private hospital. I know MSSM residents rotate at Elmhurst but it's only for a month out of the year. Does anyone in the know feel that this is sufficient time?

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

What about the clinical training though? When I went to NYU, I saw tons of interesting pts with what would constitute as a "herd" of zebras. When I went to Mount Sinai, it seemed like they all just had cardiac or renal failure plus dehydration and rhabdomyolysis. I am worried that I will not be as competent a physician coming out of a program that does the majority of its training in a private hospital. I know MSSM residents rotate at Elmhurst but it's only for a month out of the year. Does anyone in the know feel that this is sufficient time?

Hey, you can't forget about all the GI patients we have! That's really what Sinai is known for. From speaking with the internal medicine residents it appears that the Elmhurst time can be quite variable. Some spend it for multiple months of the year and others do less. The team set up is very similar in both hospitals. Elmhurst is more geared towards the inpatient bread and butter because Sinai has a hospitalist system. There is also a fantastic amount of ID at Elmhurst (lots of immigrants). As for competency, I guess a resident should answer that question but the PGY-3s that I have worked with definitely felt very confident in their abilities.

Also note, medicine residents may also rotate at the Bronx VA which is very heavy on bread and butter medicine. (there are shuttles to both sites)

If you have any general questions about the hospital and services, housing etc, I'd be happy to answer them for you. Otherwise, I'll leave the more residency geared ones for those with experience.

 

[Pkboi24]

Hey, you can't forget about all the GI patients we have! That's really what Sinai is known for. From speaking with the internal medicine residents it appears that the Elmhurst time can be quite variable. Some spend it for multiple months of the year and others do less. The team set up is very similar in both hospitals. Elmhurst is more geared towards the inpatient bread and butter because Sinai has a hospitalist system. There is also a fantastic amount of ID at Elmhurst (lots of immigrants). As for competency, I guess a resident should answer that question but the PGY-3s that I have worked with definitely felt very confident in their abilities.

Also note, medicine residents may also rotate at the Bronx VA which is very heavy on bread and butter medicine. (there are shuttles to both sites)

If you have any general questions about the hospital and services, housing etc, I'd be happy to answer them for you. Otherwise, I'll leave the more residency geared ones for those with experience.

That was incredibly helpful. Thank you.

How is the housing? What is the usual rate for a studio or a 1/1?

Any idea on what the social environment is like between the residents? Good camaraderie? Do they hang out outside work?

When I visited, the residents there didn't seem to be carrying a particularly heavy patient load as compared to NYU residents. One of the important skills of an attending physician is being able to carry a relatively heavy pt load. Do you feel like the 3rd year residents are competent in this aspect? Have you come across any residents that seemed like they were not up to par in terms of training? Ever heard of anyone having difficulty matching into a competitive specialty? Thanks for the help!

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

How is the housing? What is the usual rate for a studio or a 1/1?

Sinai has many buildings in the area for residents and students. Some have doormen and some just apartments in a separately owned simple brownstone walkups. I believe it is guaranteed for residents but I can double check that fact when my rotations start up again. As for resident housing, I recommend checking out this site since I really only know it from a student's perspective (we are treated and charged differently). http://www.mssm.edu/education/residencies-and-fellowships/housing/resident-housing

Any idea on what the social environment is like between the residents? Good camaraderie? Do they hang out outside work?

Everyone gets along in the medicine department. The previous PD, now chair, Dr. Babyatsky is one of the warmest people you've ever met and it reflects on his choice of residents. I have never had any trouble with any of the residents and they are all an enthusiastic bunch. Some are a bit shy but a bubbly personality from your end can bring them out of that shell. As for hanging out, I've been to plenty of outings with the team and I think most residents make it an effort to hold at least a happy hour every two weeks. The beauty of Sinai is that we have a few bars/restaurants nearby that are great for happy hour and many residents from all departments frequent it. At Elmhurst, if food is what you like, then this is the place to be. The neighborhood has EXCELLENT food choices and deals and you will see many residents go out after call or sometimes on a no admit day, sneak out for a bite to eat. Also, since the housing is so great, everyone lives near one another and have to opportunity to really get to know each other.

When I visited, the residents there didn't seem to be carrying a particularly heavy patient load as compared to NYU residents. One of the important skills of an attending physician is being able to carry a relatively heavy pt load. Do you feel like the 3rd year residents are competent in this aspect?

Wow you must have hit them on a good day. The medicine service consists of three groups (with 4 teams a group). There is Berson (Geriatric, general, pulm and kidney), Popper (GI, Liver and Cardiac) and Wasserman (Heme, Onc, ID). Popper and Wasserman are known to be extremely busy services. I was on Popper for my medicine clerkship and we always had 8 admissions on long call, 3 admissions on short call and our patient list averaged around 15 patients. For Wasserman, well, lets just say you will NEVER hear anyone talk about how easy Wasserman is. Berson can be slightly easier but not that much. There will definitely be a large patient load if you come to Sinai. But, hey, if Bellevue has more, perhaps it reflects a lack of efficiency in discharging? *whistles* Just kidding, but if I remember correctly, do they have a hospitalist system? All the cases on the teaching service at Sinai are super sick.

Have you come across any residents that seemed like they were not up to par in terms of training?

I have never met a SINAI medicine resident that did not seem on par with their training. They are a smart bunch and most if not all love to teach. To be honest, I have only done medicine at Sinai or Elmhurst so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I was able to compare Sinai residents with Elmhurst residents however. Though the Elmhurst residents are great and nice, you can absolutely tell that Sinai residents hold a lot more knowledge and confidence when it comes to internal medicine.

Ever heard of anyone having difficulty matching into a competitive specialty?

No but my experience with this is limited. Since I eventually chose not to go into internal medicine, I lost interest with this question so I only know of the residents that I worked with. I can tell you that they all matched into their first choice. Otherwise, I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to fellowships. I will add that if you have any tickle in your belly to pursue GI, Sinai is certainly the place to be. The research opportunities and the number of cases you'll see that is GI related is phenomenal

I would also like to add that I was incredibly happy throughout my third year thanks to the residents that I encountered. Sinai is known for being a pretty chill hospital but don't let that fool you into thinking the residents don't get anything out of this program. They work hard and still find time to teach students (me!) and my experience was all the better because of it.

Glad to be of help. I'm more than happy to answer any more questions of course. And since I'm also looking into a prelim year at both Sinai and Bellevue, hopefully there is a NYU resident/student that can give their opinions on that program.

 

[guru43]

I hope this thread is still alive, and I recognize this is more about IM programs, but given that the comparison is between MSSM and NYU, is anyone here able to comment on their respective Infectious Disease programs? I know that from the perspective of exposure to indigent and foreign-born populations, MSSM has Elmhurst , and NYU has Bellevue, but of course this doesn't necessarily translate into exposure for the ID fellow (or does it?), and there is more to ID than just the foreign/exotic (transplant, complex surgical infections, etc...).
Any comments with respect to differences between the 2 institutions?
Thanks again for this thread.