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Occupy the imbalance!

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by MCParent, 01.10.12.

  1. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Working on it. Join the FB group.

    It'll be at Convention. Most of the people it should be in front of are rarely physically in the APA HQ building.
  2. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    First paragraph: Yeah. This is the POINT. Standards are too low, and do not account for outcomes.

    Second: DeVry and U Phoenix are not accredited. Neither has sent any students through APPIC, ever. Look at the APPIC report. And, generalizations are made based on the 11 years of APPIC data, not two students.
  3. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Also, if you, you know, READ the paper I wrote about it, you'll see that we wrote it partially to move AWAY from the PhD vs. PsyD generalizations of past work, and focus more on the variables of interest (contribution to number of unmatched students).
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  4. Ollie123

    Ollie123

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    I'm well aware that these programs are not online, but Devry and ITT Tech (I didn't compare to U Phoenix) offer many campus-based programs as well. Online is a separate issue - I was simply referring to things like resources (pitiful libraries, fewer opportunities for cross-department collaborations/training, the sorts of folks generally teaching at them). You are correct that generalizations cannot be made by talking to 1-2 students (though for the record, its more like 15-20 I've spoken to in person, not counting the multitude of others online and secondhand info from others who encountered their students). However, that was just one place where this belief comes from - also from seeing who their faculty are, seeing the dissertations the students produce, looking at match rates (MUCH lower, and some don't even require everyone apply to APA internships) and EPPP scores across programs, seeing and hearing about the curriculum at these schools, etc. However, keep in mind when we are talking with schools we are inherently talking about means, not individuals. Does anyone really believe we could line up a random sampling of Argosy students and a random sampling of Minnesota students and not be able to tell which group is which based on any of a number of different metrics?

    RE: APA-accreditation, you are right that they currently are accredited. That's sort of the point...that many of us feel accreditation standards are way too low and that these schools managing to get accredited is just one example of that. APA is a minimum standard...not something to take pride in. I've used the analogy before when someone posted that they picked their school because it required they at least do SOME kind of dissertation as being akin to selecting an apartment on the grounds that it was not currently on fire. Its certainly better than one that IS on fire, but I like to aim a little higher.

    I'm also not saying that no one is saying that no one at these institutions does any research ever. Yet, how many methods/stats courses do they take? How many posters/publications does the typical student have at graduation? How much time are they expected to spend doing research? What percentage of their faculty even have lab space and/or publish regularly, in good places? I can continue listing these issues, but the point is if you just look at the averages and the "expectations" of students, they just aren't as high.
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  5. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    To pro-actively head off the, "I don't want to be an academic researcher" response....research is an important aspect of doctoral training, period. It influences clinical competencies. It is involved in selecting treatment interventions. It is also part of assessment development, selection, and use. You may never publish or present something once you leave your training (most private practice clinicians do not), but you will at least know how to do it.
  6. Ollie123

    Ollie123

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    :thumbup:

    Though even in the "PhD" programs at many of these schools, the research experiences seem less than impressive. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be a researcher, there is a lot wrong with any program that allows its students to get away without doing a real dissertation, or to otherwise minimize their research training. I'm at one of the most research-focused programs in the country and our average clinical hours when applying for internship exceed the average. I'd love it if I could just do research 100% of the time, but you won't hear me say "Well, I don't want to practice so I'm just going to take 2 classes in therapy/assessment, do nothing else that could be construed as clinical experience, and still call myself a clinical psychologist". Yet we hear the reverse all the time:(
  7. moneyphd

    moneyphd

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    This is chock full of misinformation, as a previous poster pointed out.

    It would be great to see more brainstorming/discussion around these approaches:
    boycotting convention
    press releases/interviews
    class action
    individual suits
    picketing
    any APA-independent committee formation to organize dialogue with APA, press, etc.

    We can be mindful of our actual relationship to APA, too. It can feel like APA is a faceless, governing entity of committees and subcommittees under which we may practice, and under which we are regulated. In reality this big, faceless system of governance is also coordinated by just a few individuals, to protect us. They ostensibly work for us and as an entity called APA they are maintained by our membership, our subscriptions, and our presence at convention. If APA (I'd love to refer to people specifically to promote accountability) wants future members despite an entity like PCSAS on the horizon, those few people are going to have to actually coordinate a solution. By neglect of science and neglect of the welfare of new professionals, these individuals are shooting themselves in the foot.
  8. Rivi

    Rivi

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    I wasn't planning on going to APA, but if there is a protest, I just might go to be a part of that. That would be awesome.
  9. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    I have the same intention. Does anyone have any media contacts that are local to Orlando, FL? Anyone local to Orlando, FL (a constituent who votes there) should contact their local legislatures to inform them of the problem and ask for their support. Even one comment of support from an elected official would be very helpful to get a local news station to do a story. Mental health access is a HUUUUUGE problem everywhere, so supporting our movement ultimately will help the community through raising standards.
  10. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

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    I might consider going to that, too!
  11. 4410

    4410

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    I believe you cannot generalize as many individuals commenting on the problems with not enough internship sites. When you look at University based programs there is much variance. Commonly the clinical psychology students are housed in a different locations whereby they rarely if ever have much to do with the rest of the University. Similarly many medical school have little to do with the larger University. I believe they are completely seperate and often in different city than the University at large. All they have in common is the University name,

    Semantics seems to be the overiding issues as my guess is most clinical psychology programs are merely housed in the University but have limited interaction or involvement with the rest of the university. This is common for most Graduate school programs...normally Vet Med or Med School programs are not even housed near the University that they share a name with.

    Also, Phd versus PsyD seem insignificant in this day in age as there is much variance among each type of degree program. What do you do when a person has both the PhD and PsyD as I've known some individuals who have the PhD in school psychology or even the MD degree and have gone back to complete the PsyD in clinical psychology.

    I know my opinion is frequently discounted based on bias but certainly I do not believe you can generalize these notions to the imbalance of internship sites. I certainly would not agree to protest at the APA conference in Orlando, Florida as this would or could be harmful to the profession of psychologists and against the ethical principals we abide to working under. The imbalance is not APA responsibilty and my guess is that any protest at the APA conference would end up in the Orlando Police department putting many graduate students in jail and this could have even a greater impact on you eventually practicing as a psychologists.

    It is my guess that if a protest at APA were to occur that it would have just the opposite effect than what most of your are thinking. Society will have even a more negative perspective than current on the practice of psychology and this is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot. My guess is some graduate schools would put students on probation or terminate you from their program if you go to the point of being involved in a sanctioned protest at the national conference. Protest is not how we solve problems when you are in a doctoral level program...this somehow seems a superficial means to an ends and does not reflect the ethical principals to practice as a psychologists.

    Try this....do a protest in front of the DCT office tomorrow morning....I am sure they would have no problems with putting you on probationary status and recommending that you not be allowed to advance further towards your doctoral degree. Graduate school and licensing is not a democratic process.

    This is a public forum and my guess is many faculty members of programs also read this site, including APA administrative staff. I do not agree with any sort of a sanctioned protest at the national conference for psychologist. I was going to go to the conference in Orlando this year but if a bunch of students are going to make fools out of themselves, I may have second thoughts and stay home this year.
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  12. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    From where are you getting the information that "most" university-based programs are somehow separated from the university? None of the university programs of which I know are in any way separate from their namesake university, with the vast majority placing students in university-based counseling centers that are, of course, located on said university's main campus.

    Do university-based students complete practica away from the campus as well? Most definitely, but everything about the programs is housed at the university itself, not the least of which includes the faculty and the actual psychology department.

    Medical schools are often also located at, or at least near, the university namesake as well. The main reason they might be a little ways away has to do with the physical space required for the hospital. However, there definitely are schools where the hospital site is in the campus itself (Emory springs to mind as one personally-known example).

    As for the APA and internships, I don't see how anyone could think it's not a problem they need to deal with. They perpetually tout themselves as the nation's/world's largest psychological organization, so when the field is dealing with the significant issue, the APA needs to become involved...particularly when it's their accreditation systems and requirements that might be contributing to said problem.
  13. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    For goodness sake man, quit playing the victim! Its irritating! Your posts are often corrected because your posts are of often full of misinformation, faulty assumptions, and sometimes, just plain false facts (SEE ABOVE). Are you oblivious to all the misinformation and errors pointed out in your posts...both in this thread and in others?

    Regarding this, you should know that when you make statement like that, you are obligated to state what principle is being violated. I hope you were taught this. I'd be interested to hear the ethical code that is violated be exercising one's first amendment rights to a governing authority...
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  14. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Your opinion is discounted because your posts are uninformed, illogical, or irrational (others have posted some specific instances since your post).

    And, unfortunately, those who do not use reason cannot be swayed by it.
  15. Ollie123

    Ollie123

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    If the APA manages to have students arrested for arranging a peaceful, legal protest on the internship issue, that is going to make them look far worse than anyone getting arrested. It would likely get us an army of pro bono ACLU lawyers trying to sue them out of existence, and a number of people with no connection to the field whatsoever rioting outside their headquarters. Come to think of it, that actually sounds like a pretty ideal outcome to a protest;)

    I'm somewhat confused by the other things in your post. I'm hard pressed to think of one traditional university program where the psych department is off-site, and either way that does nothing to address the many other points that have been brought up.
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  16. 4410

    4410

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    Principal A through E.....I have attended APA conferences in the past where there were protest and it caused much more harm than good, in my opinion.
  17. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard...for multiple reasons. :laugh:
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  18. cara susanna

    cara susanna Predoctoral Intern

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    Pretty sure that if our programs kicked us out for protesting at APA, we really COULD take legal action. Heh.
  19. Rivi

    Rivi

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    Facepalm.jpg
  20. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    The Code! The code! For goodness sakes man! Do you know how to use the damn thing?!

    Please, please, as Mike Parent urged you, dont fill this board with poor and distorted information. If your dont know what your talking about, then at least be show some humility and own it. This does a disservice to all those who use this board for gathering information about the field. Continuing to do this will likely be grounds for banning you from this board. Please be careful.
  21. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    OK. Well, might as well get ideas out here. I'll post a parallel post in the Occupy FB group.

    Convention:
    -Visibility. I'll be ordering Occupy the Imbalance pins (same logo as my avatar, and the FB group). I'll give these away for free at convention. Distribution is a little hard to work out; I was planning on just posting my schedule and asking people to find me, when I thought I'd be giving away 100 of these. Now it looks more like 500 or more. Ideas on getting those to people are welcome. This is intended to help group members recognize each other, network, and increase awareness (e.g., when people look at/ask about your pins).
    -Actual presence: Business meetings, etc., are open. We can attend. Since those things are usually attended by about 8 people, even a group of 20 will be a noticeable presence. We can raise the topic of the imbalance and encourage division/committee leadership to take a stance on the imbalance. Last year I recall the program book taking forever to come out, so that might require quick planning after it comes out to let everyone know. Any divisions of which you are a member would be especially important to go to.
    -An actual Occupy. This would REQUIRE a large group, or it would look feeble. There are several pretty obvious times/places when we can do this (e.g., outside of the presidential address, outside of a talk everyone is going to go to [I don't know if there's a Zimbardo parallel going on this year]).
  22. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    The wife and I were gonna do Sea World and Universal..DAMN YOU GUYS! :laugh:
  23. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Right, no. This is realistic. It's next to freakin DISNEYWORLD this year. We should incorporate that fact into the planning.

    It is insanely hot in August in Orlando though. That might encourage folks to stay in.
  24. Ollie123

    Ollie123

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    Wow. Just.....wow. If you want to know where the bias comes from....it comes from you. It comes from interacting with people like you. This is another thread that has become an outstanding illustration of why people object to those institutions.

    PS - My DCT would likely be quite understanding and help us figure out a solution. How would yours feel about you making them sound like a vindictive d-bag at a school that has little concern for the well-being of its students on a public forum?

    Anyways, back to occupy....
  25. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    I like the idea of attending the business meetings and/or any other event where comments and questions from the membership are allowed/encouraged. Being able to have 2-3 pre-written questions/talking points would allow for a focused discussion. This would also allow for consistency across panels...so each committee/board member can respond and their answers compared Apples to Apples. It is important to get comments 'on the record', so we can have tangible data to help further the discussion. It can also be helpful in informing the membership of leadership action/inaction, as that can help shape voting for future positions.

    Getting everyone together in one place before the Presidential Address would seem ideal. The pins are a great idea, as they would bring more membership attention to the issue, as MANY members of APA don't believe to the listservs and/or are not very active.
  26. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Oh, also: the APAGS elections are coming up. I'll be asking all the the nominees for all the positions to make a statement on the imbalance, and what they plan to do about it in their roles. Responses posted to the Occupy FB group (hopefully also to the FB pages they all set up about their candidacies).

    T4C--yup, a consistent question is good. I will not be able to be present at every meeting (and, anyway, it would be better if members of the divisions asked the questions; I'm only a member of like 5 divisions).

    Glad you like the pins :p help me figure out how to distribute them.
  27. KillerDiller

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    *Edited* Sorry, I just realized I'm repeating a lot of what was already said because I didn't notice there was a 4th page to this thread. Carry on.
  28. RGirl

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    I'm just in awe of someone in a thread titled "Occupy the Imbalance" arguing that peaceful protest is unethical and warrants getting kicked out of your program. I didn't know that free speech was considered unethical.

    Honestly, I'm so happy that people are actually doing something about this issue. Thanks so much for getting this going, Mike. I wish my internship was much closer to Florida... or, you know, paid enough for me to fly there.
  29. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    Because free speech violates ALL the (unenforceable) principles of the APA ethics code, duh! :laugh:
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  30. 4410

    4410

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    Does not sound overly peaceful if students are going to go to the presidential speech and try to give stickers and items to psychologists at the national convention. Regardless of being peaceful or not, the problem is not with APA, professional schools, PsyD or PhD programs or many of the reasons posted on this website.

    What is 60 minutes going to do a documentary on the imbalance? From my perspective a protest is not a viable solution to the problems of a shortage of internship sites. A protest is a self-centered attempt of gaining attention and there are much better ways of having a peaceful means of addressing the issues at hand.

    Many police departments will not allow peaceful protests as it is commonly the case that a peaceful protest turn into a non peaceful protest and people are injured. Good luck with having a peaceful protest as my guess it won't be allowed and people will be arrested. We aren't in the 60's anymore!
  31. RGirl

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    Oh, yes, handing out stickers sounds downright violent. I'm sure psychologists will be petrified at the prospect of having to say no thank you to a bunch of fellow psychologists and graduate students.

    Quite simply, peaceful protests are not against the law. Period.

    And most protests do not turn violent. Do you really see a bunch of APA members smashing windows at the conference center and barricading attendees? Seriously?

    I was a part of the 2011 Wisconsin protests, which lasted nearly a month. One day there were nearly 100,000 people there. The police department in Madison made several press releases about how the protests remarkable remained peaceful. In that month period, there were fewer arrests than there were at a typical Badgers football games. If 100,000 people can remain calm, surely a bunch of professionals can manage.
  32. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Ok. 4410's posts on this thread are sufficiently poorly-informed and irrational so as to be ignored. I love debate but I've got no interest in a dialogue with people who make things up and say nonsense to support their positions.

    Help me figure how to distribute the buttons.
  33. RGirl

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    Duly noted. Sorry for getting sucked in... you think I'd know now about how effective arguing on the internet is.:smack:

    As for the buttons, maybe have a team meet early on the first day of the conference to strategize. Perhaps they could have t-shirts or something to have them easily identified when handing out buttons. Maybe you could have a team strategy about different places people could be to hand them out - e.g., coffee break locations, outside of keynote addresses, by the registration tables.
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  34. RGirl

    RGirl

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    It's basically at par with sleeping with your clients.:p
  35. Ollie123

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    You are right and my apologies for contributing to the derailing. I'm increasingly convinced he/she is trolling as some of these things are so totally off-the-wall it seems a bit too outlandishly ignorant to be real, even for the interwebs...

    I think having certain meeting locations (at varying times) is good, particularly at the grad-student focused events (e.g. APAGS events). You could rely on a network model (i.e. make extras and give everyone a handful to give their friends). If enough people are on board and willing, you could even set up a rotating schedule of folks roaming near registration desks. I'm not familiar with the Orlando location, but there are always more heavily trafficked areas at these things.

    Of course, you could always walk around wearing a sandwich board that says "Ask me why APA hates graduate students"...but THAT one might get you in trouble;)

    Edit: Depending on whether the buttons themselves are "Protest" or "Show of support" would APAGS be willing to stand by this as an important issue and perhaps make a case for formal involvement in distribution? Any chance these being kept AT the registration desks or distributed with student registration packets? Figure that is a huge long-shot and APA is not exactly known for promoting open and honest communication on professional issues, but just brainstorming....
    Last edited: 02.26.12
  36. moneyphd

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    I wonder if APS would report on something like this?
    Last edited: 02.27.12
  37. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    *bump*

    We're rounding the bend to SEVEN HUNDRED signatures!!

    GIANT thanks to folks who shared this! Keep that going! Obviously some people are tapping social networks I didn't even know existed!
  38. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    Wow, awesome. Does anyone remember how many signatures last year's petition ended up getting? My gut is telling me that 700 is a substantially higher number, which is excellent.
  39. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Good idea. Checking now.
  40. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    I looked at it the other day....~500 if I remember correctly.

    If anyone wants to circulate this to non-psych folks (e.g. Rotary Club, Community Organizations, etc), that can really help with the #'s. Whole communities are being impacted by the Imbalance...albeit more indirectly.
  41. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Have you posted this in the interview, invite, acceptance threads? I think those students are the ones who would most benefit from any changes the petition brings about, though it might require additional explanation.
  42. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Doing so now.
  43. napsych8771

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    New to this thread, and to some extent the issue, but its become a whole lot more relevant as I just got accepted into a PhD program. I wanted to throw my support and thanks for you guys organizing this petition and taking up the cause. I've signed and passed along the petition anyway I could.
  44. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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    Awesome :) Thanks!!
  45. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Congratulations on your acceptance! And way to be aware of the issues! You're off to a good start. :D
  46. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    Psychologist
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    APAG's official statement about the Match:

  47. DynamicDidactic

    DynamicDidactic Unestablished Non-member

    Joined:
    07.27.10
    Messages:
    492
    Status:
    Post Doc
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    bureaucratic BS and stalling.

    Their goal is unachievable, and they should change their priorities.
  48. O Gurl

    O Gurl

    Joined:
    07.29.10
    Messages:
    632
    Status:
    Post Doc
    So many words to say absolutely nothing at all. Funny that their statement does not mention the most glaring issue behind the imbalance: the drastic increase in admission rates at (you guessed it) professional schools. We need new representation and I love MC Parent's idea of asking every candidate for APAGS office to directly address the imbalance in order to earn votes--no more pointless, wordy non-statements.
  49. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

    Joined:
    01.10.12
    Messages:
    729
    Status:
    Psychologist
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    We'll do it. I don't think the nominees have been announced yet.

    I'll also expand the social media tomorrow to include twitter (ugh. reluctantly.) and a group site called wiggio.
  50. O Gurl

    O Gurl

    Joined:
    07.29.10
    Messages:
    632
    Status:
    Post Doc
    Btw, a friend from grad school just forwarded the petition to me... apparently it is making its way around the NPSYCH listserve. 858 signatures! :thumbup:

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