Occupy the imbalance!

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That's interesting, although there were 103 students that applied for internship, only 36 of those got APA/CPA internships, And 51 or 50% of the students did a nonaccredited internships. where do you find those internships?:confused:

Not to disrespect anyone but the petition uses this kind of professional school as an example (I'm guessing) but really they don't compare bec most of them don't get the position everyone else is vying for. I understand the saturation of market and producing subpar psychologists but I still don't see how a subpar student can usurp a good student from getting an internship spot.

I think we also have to admit that even with the "qualified students" alone, there really are not enough spots available for internships out there. I just feel like the petition focused too much on professional schools' accreditation without addressing the whole picture. I guess I'm still not 100% convinced by the petition.

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People have different definitions of "professional schools." And, I think the term is problematic, especially when used as a pejorative. I don't distinguish between profit or non-profit or free standing. I distinguish between funded and unfunded. Without funding, the schools rely on tuition to operate. http://www.ncspp.info/schools.htm is who identifies themselves as a "professional schools." This is where the expansion has occurred in the field. They've gone from a small percentage of new graduates to more than 50% of new graduates. They have expanded faster than the number of apa internships slots available. THAT is the major source of the imbalance. And, I agree with you, in general, these are not the students causing a student from a PhD program not to get an internship slot. The numbers bear that out. 90+% of PhD students get an APA internship slot. While 100% would be better, that's not a huge problem. On the other hand 60+% of psyD program students get an APA internship slot. THAT'S a big problem. And, I agree, the petition does not address the whole picture. It wasn't intended to. It addresses one factor, discusses some of the radiating consequences of that one factor, and suggests some ways to deal with that one factor. I think that one factor is the major cause of variance in the internship imbalance.

Agreed. Additionally, the sheer number of new near-graduates being churned out is stressing a system that apparently isn't prepared to handle such a relatively rapid increase in applicants. More applications are being submitted per site, which requires those sites to spend essentially the same amount of resources reviewing the credentials of a larger number of applicants. It's almost like a brute-force DOS attack on the internship system (not exactly the perfect analogy, but in my mind, it has at least some credence).
 
The numbers bear that out. 90+% of PhD students get an APA internship slot. While 100% would be better, that's not a huge problem. On the other hand 60+% of psyD program students get an APA internship slot. THAT'S a big problem

I'm wondering where you got these numbers.

In the APPIC match (not only APA and not including people who arrange their own internship somehow), 84% PhD and 75% PsyD students matched (http://appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part2.aspx). Obviously, this is a different population/result than what you're talking about, though it still adds a bit to your point.
 
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How many prof school students apply to APA accred internships? Is there any data on that?
 
How many prof school students apply to APA accred internships? Is there any data on that?

The C-20 data on program sites is supposed to include "all students who sought or applied for an internship." Presumably, their goal is (or SHOULD be) accredited training. As well, the APPIC data only includes folks who went through APPIC, not those who specifically went for a CAPIC or miscellaneous internship. If a site is systematically matching applicants to unaccredited, nonAPPIC sites, that is a problem.

APPIC doesn't divide its data up by professional school or not, but JS posted the NCSPP member list and you could cross-reference with the APPIC data set.
 
I'm wondering where you got these numbers.

In the APPIC match (not only APA and not including people who arrange their own internship somehow), 84% PhD and 75% PsyD students matched (http://appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part2.aspx). Obviously, this is a different population/result than what you're talking about, though it still adds a bit to your point.
I didn't realize that there's this much percentage of PsyD students. I wonder though why so many PsyD students get matched. Is that because sites preferred them over PhD? I know in my program the PsyD program has a higher match rate than the PhD program, granting they have a big school as part of their consortium and they milk that connection all the time.
 
I actually don't remember. It has been posted here recently. . . a comparison of APA/CPA match rates for PsyD and PhD.

I don't remember seeing it. Any help, anyone?

It's just odd because I can't put that info together from any of the APPIC sources, so I wonder where it's coming from.
 
Why shouldn't the PsyD programs do well in the match? (in general).

They should do just as well, if they offer balanced training, teach EBT, and otherwise prepare their students to be well-rounded clinicians.

Mike makes a good point about some programs circumventing the Match completely, instead using alternative paths provided by CAPIC or similar. Those programs and spots are incredibly problematic because they aren't being counted and they are enabling more students to enter the workforce with limited employment options.
 
Why shouldn't the PsyD programs do well in the match? (in general).

I don't know. I do admit I'm more biased towards PhD bec that's what I'm aiming for. So is that part of the imbalance? Is there more PsyD students applying that are possibly taking away positions from PhD students? It seemed like from the data just posted there are still more PhD students matching.

I understand that with more students there are more people applying which saturates the internship sites. So are you saying that with APA following the petition, the students that might be falling in between cracks will not have that problem anymore or st least lessen it?
 
They should do just as well, if they offer balanced training, teach EBT, and otherwise prepare their students to be well-rounded clinicians.

Mike makes a good point about some programs circumventing the Match completely, instead using alternative paths provided by CAPIC or similar.

CAPIC is not a bad internship route. Here in California CPA (California psychological association) addressed the imbalance by creating this internship program. The training is as good as APPIC although maybe not APA. The problem was it can get very expensive for sites to afford APPIC and it seems like CAPIC is much cheaper. There are many CAPIC sites that also belong to APPIC.

With that said I wonder if people who didn't do CAPIC, APPIC, APA route should not be permitted to get licensed or needs to get more hours. To ensure quality psychology students becoming psychologists.
 
I don't know. I do admit I'm more biased towards PhD bec that's what I'm aiming for. So is that part of the imbalance? Is there more PsyD students applying that are possibly taking away positions from PhD students? It seemed like from the data just posted there are still more PhD students matching.

I understand that with more students there are more people applying which saturates the internship sites. So are you saying that with APA following the petition, the students that might be falling in between cracks will not have that problem anymore or st least lessen it?

I'd read my paper with John Williamson as a brief intro to the topic and the specific problem of unequal contributors, and also peruse some of the recent TEPP work.

Basically, the petition is intended to do two things: 1. fix informed consent of applicants to encourage applicants to think critically about outcomes, which would result hopefully in voluntary applicant-side reduction of enrollment in problem programs as applicants reconsider whether those degrees are really a fit to their goals; 2. facilitate program level accountability to encourage problem sites to make better actuarial decisions in admissions
 
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CAPIC is not a bad internship route. Here in California CPA (California psychological association) addressed the imbalance by creating this internship program. The training is as good as APPIC although maybe not APA. The problem was it can get very expensive for sites to afford APPIC and it seems like CAPIC is much cheaper. There are many CAPIC sites that also belong to APPIC.

With that said I wonder if people who didn't do CAPIC, APPIC, APA route should not be permitted to get licensed or needs to get more hours. To ensure quality psychology students becoming psychologists.

CAPIC membership, APPIC membership, and APA accreditation are not analogous. The CAPIC member requirements are: http://www.capic.net/material/Internship_Membership/CAPIC_Predoctoral_Criteria_w_clarifications.pdf APA: http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/

Every other health profession requires completion of accredited training. The fact that we do not is a hinderance to our ability to effectively lobby for funding.
 
CAPIC membership, APPIC membership, and APA accreditation are not analogous. The CAPIC member requirements are: http://www.capic.net/material/Internship_Membership/CAPIC_Predoctoral_Criteria_w_clarifications.pdf APA: http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/

Every other health profession requires completion of accredited training. The fact that we do not is a hinderance to our ability to effectively lobby for funding.

Agreed. The problem I have with CAPIC is that it adds yet another accrediting body/standard rather than attempting to use what's available. I can understand why applying for APA accred could be cumbersome (although I feel, as MCP mentioned, that it's necessary), but why not just adhere to APPIC standards rather than creating your own system? The main reason that springs to mind is, I believe, CAPIC sites are allowed to be half-time, and are also allowed to be unpaid, neither of which I agree with.
 
9. Percentage of matched applicants that were placed at an
APA- or CPA-accredited program:

Ph.D. = 94%
Psy.D. = 64%

Great, thanks! So it doesn't look like the PsyDs are taking away APA accredited options from the PhDs. Maybe part of it is that the PsyDs have more options, as others have suggested and as is (supposed to be, ignoring my situation) the case in my (university-based but professional school) program.

I think it would show such commitment to the practice of psychology and mental health care if there were (more?) fully funded professional psychology grad programs...
 
There's just no good justification for charging 20, 30, 40,000 dollars a year for tuition on a practice oriented psychology program. That's morally wrong in my opinion.

As someone who did it and could afford it (I'm not in financial crisis til I'm 40 though the vast majority of my cohortmates are), I think that it has to do with brain development of people attending these programs. Like my decision making frontal lobes were not fully formed when I was applying to grad school straight out of undergrad. I think that's true for most undergrads and I don't think that most people in the field realize that these schools seem legitimate and like a good move toward a career as a psychologist when you're brand new to the field. Someone recently posted somewhere that they didn't think a lot of the psych undergrads who realized they couldn't do anything with the BA so decided to apply to grad school would be applying for admission in a second round (i.e., next year). I think that's true, too, but I think a large portion of that population will just get into one of these unfunded schools and use student loans to pay tuition. I really feel bad for students who - like I used to - think you need a doctoral degree to do therapy and wind up in these programs in an attempt just to "help people." If I drop out in the next few weeks, I will really try to educate undergrads about these issues somehow because the message isn't clear, in my opinion. :(

Continuing good luck with the petition. :luck:
 
Sure, PsyD students beat out PhD students at sites I'd imagine frequently. The internship year is a clinical year. It's not a research gig. .... If you are a research oriented PhD student applying to well recognized internship programs, I don't think you are competing with PsyD students. But, most PhD students do not go into a research career. I do think the current number of students applying every year taxes the system; it makes it harder to screen applications effectively.

Take a look at #10 here: http://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part3.aspx

The data should dispel the common misconception that Psy.D.s get more "clinical" experience and training than Ph.D.'s. According to the data, the Ph.D. students applying for internship reported, on average, substantially more practicum intervention hours(650 vs. 576), assessment hours (225 vs. 163), and clinical supervision hours (377 vs. 284) than the Psy.D. applicants. As many have pointed out here before, the research training at a Boulder-model clinical Ph.D. program is not in lieu of clinical training, but rather integrated with and in addition to the clinical training. I'm continuously amazed at the ongoing perception that Ph.D.= research training and Psy.D. = clinical intervention training.
 
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I would strongly encourage the people who signed the petition to cease their support of the APA by withdrawing their membership from the organization. In addition, I would encourage them to actively advocate for another organization more in line with their beliefs like APS or similar. I actually have been holding off on submitting my 2012 APA membership dues because I want to ensure that my $ actually goes towards things I support.


I have done just this. I cannot support an organization that has allowed such a crisis to occur that directly impacts those it is supposed to be advocating for. I've been hounded for dues for the past year, but won't pay into the system until I see a solid effort to respond to this fundamental concern.
 
I have done just this. I cannot support an organization that has allowed such a crisis to occur that directly impacts those it is supposed to be advocating for. I've been hounded for dues for the past year, but won't pay into the system until I see a solid effort to respond to this fundamental concern.

So any good sources for low-cost, easily obtainable liability insurance for psych students? That is literally the only reason I am an APA member.
 
So any good sources for low-cost, easily obtainable liability insurance for psych students? That is literally the only reason I am an APA member.

I'm not sure how they got the arrangement but in my department has a policy or contract that covers all the students, you just pay the twelve bucks or whatever each year to be covered.

On a side note, did anyone else see the email from the Div. 38 List about the new $10 million HRSA grant program to fund new internships?
 
I'm not sure how they got the arrangement but in my department has a policy or contract that covers all the students, you just pay the twelve bucks or whatever each year to be covered.

On a side note, did anyone else see the email from the Div. 38 List about the new $10 million HRSA grant program to fund new internships?

I hadn't heard it mentioned as of yet, but a quick Google search turned up this link, which sounds like it might be related...?: http://www.hablemos.samhsa.gov/healthreform/docs/Behavioral_Health_Education_and_Training_508.pdf

Edit: This link also seems to mention the same thing down in Sec. 5306: Mental and Behavioral Health Education and Training Grants: https://www.aamc.org/download/131010/data/hrsa.pdf.pdf
 
I'm not sure how they got the arrangement but in my department has a policy or contract that covers all the students, you just pay the twelve bucks or whatever each year to be covered.

On a side note, did anyone else see the email from the Div. 38 List about the new $10 million HRSA grant program to fund new internships?

Saw it, posted it to Occupy. That money drops to $5M after the first year. The prior $3M GPE gave 25 awards, at $115000 each I'd guess that's two interns an award, on average. So.... 75ish more spots, sustained?
 
It might, but there's a problem. I can't think of another applied profession that works that way. Certainly law and medicine do not. Psychology's funded phd programs are funded because of research dollars and teaching dollars. The training model is an academician/research training model. That's how it works if you go get a phd in physics or whatever. I think we could do a few things in psychology to help. We could work toward getting practice oriented degrees into more upper tier universities. Right now, the psyd is mostly housed at fringe institutions. You can't, for example, get a psyd from the university of michigan. I'd love to trade out say Yeshiva (picked somewhat at random as an example school that few have heard of and not an R1) for University of Texas, or wherever. I think we really need to find a way to make the argosys of the world go away. We need to deal with the supply and demand issues with regard to the field, not the student demand for doctoral programs. So, I think we need to trim the fat while at the same time working on the financial issues that limit apa internships and also demand for psychologists at large. We can increase the number of APA internships as merited by work study analyses and get rid of the programs contributing so heavily to the match problem. We can then work to figure out a way to subsidize training costs for those in the practice oriented programs. The tuition costs are out of control high. We can work on getting tuition waivers with participation in university practica, TAs and RAs to make those more commonplace in practice oriented programs. There's just no good justification for charging 20, 30, 40,000 dollars a year for tuition on a practice oriented psychology program. That's morally wrong in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more with this statement.

Funding for applied degrees is a mess overall, but the problem is that unlike dentistry, law, and medicine, psychologists typically do not earn incomes to pay back mountains of loans. That means we either tighten the reigns and advocate for higher reimbursement and/or decrease cost to pursue the degree. Coming from a partially funded, balanced PhD program, I was always a bit miffed to have to pay tuition (reasonable tuition at least) while WORKING for the university. I worked for my dissertation chair in her lab for a 20-hr/week assistantship and I worked at my practicum sites seeing patients. The research side is covered, as Jon mentioned. So perhaps a similar TA-ship approach will help on the clinical side. However, I think we have got to address the issue of billing for services from trainees. Perhaps if there was a process by which studnets could get licensed at the MA level to provide (and bill for) supervised clinical services? Like LPAs? That would at least cut costs for half of the training experience.
 
CAPIC membership, APPIC membership, and APA accreditation are not analogous. The CAPIC member requirements are: http://www.capic.net/material/Internship_Membership/CAPIC_Predoctoral_Criteria_w_clarifications.pdf APA: http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/

Every other health profession requires completion of accredited training. The fact that we do not is a hinderance to our ability to effectively lobby for funding.

It's not analogous. I guess I meant the quality of psychologist CAPIC produce is similar to APPIC, not APA. I have a few supervisors that came out of CAPIC and they are competent. But a whole different topic.

I think as a systemic problem though, every state have different requirements and psychological associations have to lobby for those. Federally, APA can lobby for increase in medicare reimbursements or even lobby for doctorate students who have gotten their MA/MS be able to bill separate compared to other masters level.
 
It's not analogous. I guess I meant the quality of psychologist CAPIC produce is similar to APPIC, not APA. I have a few supervisors that came out of CAPIC and they are competent. But a whole different topic.

I think as a systemic problem though, every state have different requirements and psychological associations have to lobby for those. Federally, APA can lobby for increase in medicare reimbursements or even lobby for doctorate students who have gotten their MA/MS be able to bill separate compared to other masters level.

I'm curious...what are the incentives for a program to apply for and get APA accrediation. Whats in it for them? Obviously, it benefits the people going though the internship, but what external benefits does it give to the site/organziation and the people in it?

From the way people describe it, its sound like a costly (both upfront and in terms of labor that is not billable) pain in the ass. If I had an internship, I would have little interest in doing this. I have plenty of applicants knocking on my door each year, so what the point? No wonder there are just as many unaccredited sites and accredited ones, right? Think this should be addressed somehow? If so, how?
 
I'm curious...what are the incentives for a program to apply for and get APA accrediation. Whats in it for them? Obviously, it benefits the people going though the internship, but what external benefits does it give to the site/organziation and the people in it?

From the way people describe it, its sound like a costly (both upfront and in terms of labor that is not billable) pain in the ass. If I had an internship, I would have little interest in doing this. I have plenty of applicants knocking on my door each year, so what the point? No wonder there are just as many unaccredited sites and accredited ones, right? Think this should be addressed somehow? If so, how?

This is a great point. I'm sure there are lots of great unaccredited internships that look at the hurdles of self-study and say, screw that. Especially if they're in a state with a board that doesn't require an accredited internship for licensing. If the APA doesn't make accreditation more cost effective, faster, and more efficient, I'm sure they'll have a lot of resistance to their proposal to require doctoral and internship accreditation for licensing.

I guess the external benefits are 1. licensing if the state board requires accredited internship, 2. the site is probably considered to at least meet a standard of training for outside reviewers (say, a college counseling center probably wants accreditation to justify its existence to a university board), 3. access to interns whose programs require accredited internships.
 
An internship program will almost exclusively run in the RED, so it isn't for money. Some places can make it work financially, but usually it is sold as a way to recruit (e.g. VA sites) or a way to provide services at a cheaper rate than hiring more licensed clinicians. (e.g. counseling / CMHC). The financial impact is a HUGE factor for many programs. Finances will always be a huge thorn in the side of every site unless the state laws change about being able to bill for intern services....which is a huge headache to get done. The fact we can't bill for most services is a huge issue with the field, and with rising healthcare costs...it is only getting worse as budgets get cut.
 
This is a great point. I'm sure there are lots of great unaccredited internships that look at the hurdles of self-study and say, screw that. Especially if they're in a state with a board that doesn't require an accredited internship for licensing. If the APA doesn't make accreditation more cost effective, faster, and more efficient, I'm sure they'll have a lot of resistance to their proposal to require doctoral and internship accreditation for licensing.

this is where APA should also work on. Not to lower the standards but maybe give discounts or help in funding internhip positions. In the CMH world getting funded is hard to come by so they have to make a decision whether that money should be allocated to students or other things.

I wonder though, maybe APA don't necessarily listen to our grouses because most of the leaders in APA are so out of touch with the students.
 
I wonder though, maybe APA don't necessarily listen to our grouses because most of the leaders in APA are so out of touch with the students.

APA's leadership isn't some mysterious cartel. :) I've said it before on this forum--APA is just a bunch of psychologists. There's no reason that student members on this board who want change can't get involved in their divisions and APAGS (become your division rep! Run for APAGS positions!), and then Early Career boards and other boards on APA and state boards. It really is that easy--just change the faces who are there, get into the system, and scream about the problem to the people who are too far removed from the problem to feel invested in it until they do something, or they rotate out and you replace them. Advocate for rigorous training and maintaining standards. It's not hard. It takes up a pretty small amount of time, really. I post on this forum but I've made it pretty clear who I am, and it's not like I'm just spending my time whining on a forum about this.
 
I have plenty of applicants knocking on my door each year, so what the point?

Plenty of bottom tier applicants knocking on your door. You know all the quality programs require applications to APA accredited sites so by being unaccredited you are broadcasting for a certain kind of applicant. So is the answer better quality interns? I'd wager they provide (maybe less tangible) external benefits through better services provided, thus a better reputation for your facility.
 
Plenty of bottom tier applicants knocking on your door. You know all the quality programs require applications to APA accredited sites so by being unaccredited you are broadcasting for a certain kind of applicant. So is the answer better quality interns? I'd wager they provide (maybe less tangible) external benefits through better services provided, thus a better reputation for your facility.

That's a fair point. I believe requiring an APA-acred. internship is a great idea in regard to quality control, but it admittedly can put students in a bind because the % of available APA-acred. internships currently in the APPIC Match. I do not want nor advocate for more internship spots in the match, but I do support and want a greater % of APA-acred. internships in the APPIC Match.
 
I would advocate that an APA internship be required for licensure, period.

I wrote a second paragraph to my response on exactly this, but I deleted it because I didn't want to get too far off track. :laugh: The current system allows access to licensure through the front door, back door, barn door, second floor, etc. There needs to be 1 door again.
 
I would advocate that an APA internship be required for licensure, period.

I agree with this sentiment but this has to be paired with some way to combat the fraud of fleecing graduate students for 4-5 years of education and then letting them know an actual career is only available to those who can secure an APA accredited slot. This would be telling what, 20-30%? of clinical graduate students "Thank you for your free labor and piles of money, please now find a career elsewhere".
 
Yep. It's amazing, t4change, how the discourse on these issues has changed since we started posting here. Why, I remember a time when you agreed with me on nothing ;)

The only thing we agreed on was politics, albeit we are both in the minority here. It is funny how going through graduate training, internship, fellowship, etc...has changed my opinion of how things should be in the field. I think you've softened with time and I've become more rigid and dogmatic. :laugh:
 
Yep. So, informed consent for graduate students is a key variable. I think eventually shutting those programs down would be a goal. Also, creating a higher percentage of APA slots, perhaps through a combination of provisional licenses before internship and lobbying efforts for reimbursement for internship programs so that more APA slots can be created.

Required APA accredited internship is the way the field is going to go. http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/06/soe.aspx

No students will be shafted; there'll be a grace period for all students who are currently in a program to get out and be license-eligible without the accredited internship.

I don't know that professional schools need to be shut down. I think many could survive just fine cutting out the bottom 25%-50% of their incoming classes (i.e., the people who will go on to not get an accredited internship and then fail the EPPP). They would be making somewhat smaller piles of money. I think such reductions would be the natural consequence of program level accountability for poor match rates.
 
I would advocate that an APA internship be required for licensure, period.

One concern I would have for this is consideration for newly developed internships. We most likely would want to encourage new internship sites in the future, but how would they land students if there was no chance students could get licensed if they trained there?

Of course this is an uphill battle that new internships face already to a degree, but the students that apply there can still (in theory) obtain licensure. Without some sort of option for licensure for a non-accredited site, it's hard for me to envision a non-accredited (new or otherwise) site being able to ever obtain accreditation. I'm admittedly not too familiar on the specific requirements for internship site accreditation, so I'd appreciate any clarification on this aspect if anyone has it.
 
Plenty of bottom tier applicants knocking on your door. You know all the quality programs require applications to APA accredited sites so by being unaccredited you are broadcasting for a certain kind of applicant. So is the answer better quality interns? I'd wager they provide (maybe less tangible) external benefits through better services provided, thus a better reputation for your facility.

Well maybe on the whole, yes. But plenty of progams don't require their students to apply soley to APA accredited internships. So some good applicants apply to APPIC member sites as well. Out of the pool I would get, I'm sure there are 5-10 that would be equatable to any of those who apply to APA sites.
 
Have you guys seen the latest issue of digital GradPSYCH? There is a piece on the imbalance: What's behind the internship match crises? by Rebecca A. Clay.

I am trying to post the link, but I think you have to be an active APA student affiliate to view it, but let's give it a go:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/apa/gradpsych_201203/index.php

By the way, MCParent, it kicks off with your article.
 
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Have you guys seen the latest issue of digital GradPSYCH? There is a piece on the imbalance: What's behind the internship match crises? by Rebecca A. Clay.

I would post the link, but I think you have to be an active APA student affiliate to view it. Hmm.... I am about to give this a read.

I'd be very interested in hearing the author's take on things

Edit: Actually, looks like it's available to everyone after all; thank you, google: http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2012/03/cover-match-crisis.aspx
 
I'd be very interested in hearing the author's take on things

Edit: Actually, looks like it's available to everyone after all; thank you, google: http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2012/03/cover-match-crisis.aspx

I just commented on the Occupy group. Here is that response:

A few comments here: Dr. Paszkiewicz, I believe, unfortunately is not painting the full picture of the CAPIC system. CAPIC’s system has multiple problems. First and primarily, it, like APPIC, is a membership designation, not an accreditation status. This distinction is important. Most CAPIC sites are not APA-accredited. Conversely, most APPIC sites are APA accredited and APPIC views membership in its association as a step toward APA accreditation, and actively helps member sites obtain APA accreditation. The APA is the only accreditation body in psychology in the U.S. Essentially all health professions—from massage to medicine—require completion of accredited programs to obtain licensure. Except for psychology. Indeed, the APA is moving toward such a requirement for psychology with the Model Licensing Act (Clay, 2010) to keep psychologists in place in integrated care settings, where completion of accredited training is a minimum bar. Unless CAPIC intends to alter its mission to actively help sites move toward APA accreditation, graduates from CAPIC internships will be hindered in terms of hireability and mobility of their degrees, come implementation of the Model Licensing Act.

CAPIC also has a number of other problems. Most CAPIC internships are unpaid. In contrast, reasonable pay is a requirement of APPIC membership and APA accreditation (APPIC, 2011; Committee on Accreditation, 2009). The simultaneous advocacy by Dr. Paszkiewicz of CAPIC as a potential boon to nontraditional students, in conjunction with this fact, is difficult to reconcile. Although my critics may point out that CAPIC spots, though unpaid, fill a need, it is not difficult to argue the converse—that it is exploitative to take in interns and not pay them, because sites knows the interns require the internship to finish their degrees and the interns will probably silence their nagging doubts rather than complain about the lack of pay or engage in advocacy for making CAPIC sites require salary, and because there are dozens of unmatched applicants who would gladly take that intern’s position out of desperation to complete their degrees.

Clay, R. A. (2010). APA updates its model licensure act. Monitor on Psychology, 41, 5. Online at http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/05/licensure.aspx

APPIC. (2011). APPIC membership criteria: Doctoral psychology internship programs. Online at http://www.appic.org/AboutAPPIC/JoiningAPPIC/Members/InternshipMembershipCriteria.aspx

Committee on Accreditation (2009). Guidelines and principles for accreditation of programs in professional psychology. Online at http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/policies/guiding-principles.pdf


Also, Ms. Wilson raised the important point about “finger-pointing.” "It doesn't help anyone to start pointing fingers at specific types of training models or certain types of schools," she said. The origin of this concern, which is frequently mentioned, perplexes me. My earlier work indicated that there are clearly areas of localized strain in the internship imbalance. As mentioned before, the entire primary purpose of my paper with Williamson was to move past the training model difference analyses and identify specific problem schools. The fact that most of these programs grant PsyDs is simply that data speaking for themselves. To ignore these realities for fear that it could be perceived as “finger-pointing,” (a vague phrase; as I understand it, this essentially means someone’s feelings could be hurt) is irrational, and holds us back from engaging in important discussions about what the data really say. Personally, I am also confused about resistance to the accurate reporting of data.

Dr. Grus mentions that the CCTC is “pressuring graduate programs with low match rates to either ratchet down the number of students they accept or work to expand the number of internship positions.” The CCTC has made major steps toward resolving the imbalance, and I would call the CCTC members in general far-and-away the leaders within APA in terms of real action on the topic. But, the CCTC is not an accrediting body. It is a membership body. Indeed, “pressure” is all it can apply to this wound in psychology, not stitching (or a transplant). It is not able to enforce with any teeth any policies it might want to implement. This problem needs to be solved with attention from all aspects of APA.
 
I just commented on the Occupy group. Here is that response:

A few comments here: Dr. Paszkiewicz, I believe, unfortunately is not painting the full picture of the CAPIC system. CAPIC's system has multiple problems. First and primarily, it, like APPIC, is a membership designation, not an accreditation status. This distinction is important. Most CAPIC sites are not APA-accredited. Conversely, most APPIC sites are APA accredited and APPIC views membership in its association as a step toward APA accreditation, and actively helps member sites obtain APA accreditation. The APA is the only accreditation body in psychology in the U.S. Essentially all health professions—from massage to medicine—require completion of accredited programs to obtain licensure. Except for psychology. Indeed, the APA is moving toward such a requirement for psychology with the Model Licensing Act (Clay, 2010) to keep psychologists in place in integrated care settings, where completion of accredited training is a minimum bar. Unless CAPIC intends to alter its mission to actively help sites move toward APA accreditation, graduates from CAPIC internships will be hindered in terms of hireability and mobility of their degrees, come implementation of the Model Licensing Act.

CAPIC also has a number of other problems. Most CAPIC internships are unpaid. In contrast, reasonable pay is a requirement of APPIC membership and APA accreditation (APPIC, 2011; Committee on Accreditation, 2009). The simultaneous advocacy by Dr. Paszkiewicz of CAPIC as a potential boon to nontraditional students, in conjunction with this fact, is difficult to reconcile. Although my critics may point out that CAPIC spots, though unpaid, fill a need, it is not difficult to argue the converse—that it is exploitative to take in interns and not pay them, because sites knows the interns require the internship to finish their degrees and the interns will probably silence their nagging doubts rather than complain about the lack of pay or engage in advocacy for making CAPIC sites require salary, and because there are dozens of unmatched applicants who would gladly take that intern's position out of desperation to complete their degrees.

Clay, R. A. (2010). APA updates its model licensure act. Monitor on Psychology, 41, 5. Online at http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/05/licensure.aspx

APPIC. (2011). APPIC membership criteria: Doctoral psychology internship programs. Online at http://www.appic.org/AboutAPPIC/JoiningAPPIC/Members/InternshipMembershipCriteria.aspx

Committee on Accreditation (2009). Guidelines and principles for accreditation of programs in professional psychology. Online at http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/about/policies/guiding-principles.pdf


Also, Ms. Wilson raised the important point about "finger-pointing." "It doesn't help anyone to start pointing fingers at specific types of training models or certain types of schools," she said. The origin of this concern, which is frequently mentioned, perplexes me. My earlier work indicated that there are clearly areas of localized strain in the internship imbalance. As mentioned before, the entire primary purpose of my paper with Williamson was to move past the training model difference analyses and identify specific problem schools. The fact that most of these programs grant PsyDs is simply that data speaking for themselves. To ignore these realities for fear that it could be perceived as "finger-pointing," (a vague phrase; as I understand it, this essentially means someone's feelings could be hurt) is irrational, and holds us back from engaging in important discussions about what the data really say. Personally, I am also confused about resistance to the accurate reporting of data.

Dr. Grus mentions that the CCTC is "pressuring graduate programs with low match rates to either ratchet down the number of students they accept or work to expand the number of internship positions." The CCTC has made major steps toward resolving the imbalance, and I would call the CCTC members in general far-and-away the leaders within APA in terms of real action on the topic. But, the CCTC is not an accrediting body. It is a membership body. Indeed, "pressure" is all it can apply to this wound in psychology, not stitching (or a transplant). It is not able to enforce with any teeth any policies it might want to implement. This problem needs to be solved with attention from all aspects of APA.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. There's no way around it--there are a handful of schools directly and disproportionately contributing to the internship imbalance, and they need to be called out on, and held accountable for, what they're doing to our profession and its trainees. If a medical school continually churns out poorly-qualified graduates, fails to place its students in residencies, offers a very limited number of educational/training and administrative supports and opportunities, and has its alumni pass licensing exams at significant lower rates, it's going to be placed on probation and/or closed outright. Why should we hold ourselves to any lower of a standard?

And as JSnow and others have mentioned, we need to continue advocating for our self-worth as a field, such as by securing the ability at the state level to bill for intern services, thereby making internship training a more economically-viable choice.
 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. There's no way around it--there are a handful of schools directly and disproportionately contributing to the internship imbalance, and they need to be called out on, and held accountable for, what they're doing to our profession and its trainees. If a medical school continually churns out poorly-qualified graduates, fails to place its students in residencies, offers a very limited number of educational/training and administrative supports and opportunities, and has its alumni pass licensing exams at significant lower rates, it's going to be placed on probation and/or closed outright. Why should we hold ourselves to any lower of a standard?

And as JSnow and others have mentioned, we need to continue advocating for our self-worth as a field, such as by securing the ability at the state level to bill for intern services, thereby making internship training a more economically-viable choice.

I agree. What the use of finger pointing?! Um, it lets those (most) responsible know so they can get their **** together. Are we afraid of hurting someones feelings here or something? Geez...
 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. There's no way around it--there are a handful of schools directly and disproportionately contributing to the internship imbalance, and they need to be called out on, and held accountable for, what they're doing to our profession and its trainees. If a medical school continually churns out poorly-qualified graduates, fails to place its students in residencies, offers a very limited number of educational/training and administrative supports and opportunities, and has its alumni pass licensing exams at significant lower rates, it's going to be placed on probation and/or closed outright. Why should we hold ourselves to any lower of a standard?

And as JSnow and others have mentioned, we need to continue advocating for our self-worth as a field, such as by securing the ability at the state level to bill for intern services, thereby making internship training a more economically-viable choice.

I, frankly, simply don't comprehend the idea of not working to understand what, specifically, if happening, and then developing solutions that specifically address those problems. Calling that analysis "finger-pointing" is ridiculous. There are areas of localized strain. Pretending that there are not helps no one. Any solutions developed out of a pollyannish way of thinking are futile.
 
There's no way around it--there are a handful of schools directly and disproportionately contributing to the internship imbalance, and they need to be called out on, and held accountable for, what they're doing to our profession and its trainees. If a medical school continually churns out poorly-qualified graduates, fails to place its students in residencies, offers a very limited number of educational/training and administrative supports and opportunities, and has its alumni pass licensing exams at significant lower rates, it's going to be placed on probation and/or closed outright. Why should we hold ourselves to any lower of a standard?

Exactly. To dismiss hard evidence as finger-pointing and in-fighting is absurd and reeks of self-interest of the part of Dr. Paszkiewicz. But I am thrilled to see this conversation taking place.
 
I agree. What the use of finger pointing?! Um, it lets those (most) responsible know so they can get their **** together. Are we afraid of hurting someones feelings here or something? Geez...

Indeed. At what point did someone decide that professional accountability is "finger pointing?"

If we can't even take ourselves seriously enough as a field to require a universal standard of training, and hold programs accountable to that standard, how can we expect anyone else to pay us any heed?
 
Indeed. At what point did someone decide that professional accountability is "finger pointing?"

If we can't even take ourselves seriously enough as a field to require a universal standard of training, and hold programs accountable to that standard, how can we expect anyone else to pay us any heed?

Sadly, I don't see this happening in the near future. I am interested in the Model licensing Act but am curious how it would be enforced and what people who didn't get accredited training will do (lobby against it, I imagine).

You'd think psychologists would have a good understanding of the importance of minimal standards.
 
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