Occupy the imbalance!

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MCParent said:
You want the situation fixed? Nominate yourself for an APA board!
Click to expand...

Instead of everyone nominating themselves, would it make more sense to pick a few people here who we trust to represent this issue and throw our collective support behind them?
 
KillerDiller said:
Instead of everyone nominating themselves, would it make more sense to pick a few people here who we trust to represent this issue and throw our collective support behind them?
Click to expand...

I'm fine with whatever gets a few troublemakers on the Boards. :)

If someone wants to be nominated, they can message me on here or at my email, [email protected], and I'll let everyone here and on the FB group know they're running (that way they won't have to "come out" with their SDN pseudonym).

I can't do it myself; not a PhD yet.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
MCParent said:
I can't do it myself; not a PhD yet.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I think this will be the limiting factor for most of us. I would nominate you if I could, though.

Jon Snow or T4C, would either of you be up for it? I'd love to see that happen, though I agree with not having you "come out" with your real names.
 
Jon Snow, T4C, EdieB are all fine options. My degree has also been conferred.

Do you all think it wise to have 2 or 3 people with the support of Occupy? One person alone is a bit daunting.

Edit: Or perhaps this would be best sorted out on the FB page in order to preserve SDN annonymity?
 
O Gurl said:
Jon Snow, T4C, EdieB are all fine options. My degree has also been conferred.

Do you all think it wise to have 2 or 3 people with the support of Occupy? One person alone is a bit daunting.

Edit: Or perhaps this would be best sorted out on the FB page in order to preserve annonymity.
Click to expand...

Haha sure; I have the same link on the FB page.

I can't run and can't tell you folks who want to how to spend your time/energy. However, having 2 or 3 people all on the SAME board would give you some pretty extreme leverage with that board.
 
I'll do it.

I'll have to actually send in my membership app to APA now. :laugh: I've been holding off because I didn't want to give them any more $. Of course...change can happen from the inside too.

Do students have voting rights...or only full members?
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I'll do it.

I'll have to actually send in my membership app to APA now. :laugh: I've been holding off because I didn't want to give them any more $. Of course...change can happen from the inside too.

Do students have voting rights...or only full members?
Click to expand...

Good question. I am a fellow, but still a "student affiliate".
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I'll do it.

I'll have to actually send in my membership app to APA now. :laugh: I've been holding off because I didn't want to give them any more $. Of course...change can happen from the inside too.

Do students have voting rights...or only full members?
Click to expand...

:)

I think only full members can vote. Of them, only an amazingly small number do. Rallying some support, such as encouraging Occupy members to ask their professors and mentors to vote for these candidates, could be enough.

I guess you guys can work it out amongst yourselves, non-anonymously, what boards you want to apply for :)
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I'll do it.

I'll have to actually send in my membership app to APA now. :laugh: I've been holding off because I didn't want to give them any more $. Of course...change can happen from the inside too.

Do students have voting rights...or only full members?
Click to expand...

If we do, I'll certainly vote for whoever amongst you all runs. If not, I'll let everyone I know who can vote to consider sending their support your way, and/or will do so myself if I happen to grab my degree before the votes actually come to pass.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
JonSnow and Edieb should both do it...as long as we don't canabalize the same votes. I assume people can vote for multiple people (as long as there are multiple seats available, no?).
Click to expand...

Agreed. :thumbup:

This is getting to be very exciting. Hopefully they will be interested....
 
We should see if there are any 'weak', 'open/vacated' seats. I'll look more into the structure, but typically if you are going as a representative attached to a certain constituency (div./special interest group rep), some seats are much harder to get into than others. JonSnow and I probably overlap a lot in our areas. Anyhow...I'll read up on the board tonight, as the devil is in the details.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
MCParent said:
:)

I think only full members can vote. Of them, only an amazingly small number do. Rallying some support, such as encouraging Occupy members to ask their professors and mentors to vote for these candidates, could be enough.

I guess you guys can work it out amongst yourselves, non-anonymously, what boards you want to apply for :)
Click to expand...

Reminds me of all the news agencies coming out and officially endorsing presidential candidates. :thumbup:
 
Dude, I would totally vote for you guys... if I were a full member. ;)
 
A letter requesting dissemination of the petition, as well as considering officially endorsing some or all of the petition, has been sent to the divisions and some associations.

:)

Also, recognizing that everyone is not on FB, I set up a tumbr site. It's a bit more versatile than either the FB or twitter accounts. It will be better for posting the APAGS nominee statements on the imbalance.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/223654767715768/262719410475970/

https://twitter.com/#!/OccupyImbalance

http://occupytheimbalance.tumblr.com/

(There's nothing on the tumbr right now... I'm working on the Occupy Vision and Mission statements, and they'll go up there for public comment before they're set)
 
Thank you for all of your hard work, MCParent. PM me if there is anything I can do to help. :)
 
This is getting exciting. I am reminded of my black bandanna wearing misspent youth.

Running for office is a great idea, but don't lose the advantage of diversity of tactics by concentrating too much on working within the system to promote change. Students have asked nicely for the APA to serve their interests for too long. Asking nicely once more is not going to have an effect unless it is paired with the threat of disrupting the organization as a whole.

Although the facts are not completely analogous, I am reminded of an article I read about the NY rent strikes of 1963-64 written by Piven and Cloward (it is published in the New Republic in 1967 if you are interested in reading it yourself). They analyze why the 63 strikes had so little effect while the 1890s strikes were so successful. Their basic (highly over-simplified) conclusion is that the organizers in 63 were too concerned about playing by the rules, and an antisystemic movement must threaten to break the rules in order to work.

Obviously I am not advocating breaking the ethical rules of the profession or even the rules of the convention itself. When I say "break the rules" I mean that it should be clear that students are no longer willing to respect the norms that have held them powerless within the APA if the APA will not use its power to further the interests of its student members.

In that vein, here are a few other ideas you might consider in addition to the ones already in the works

1) Rent an "Occupy" booth at the APA convention - the cheapest booths are about $1000.00, and they probably will reject your booth anyway as a violation of their content guidelines. This doesn't matter. The $1000 can be used in other ways once the booth is rejected, and the rejection of the booth itself is a concrete example of how the valid concerns of intern applicants are secondary to APA's mission to protect the interests of other stakeholders. If it is rejected, there will be a glaring contrast between this censorship and Argosy's sponsorship of the last convention.
2) Organize a picket line outside of the APA convention site - The Hilton Orlando Hotel is located off of a public street. Thus, your right to protest on the sidewalk in front of it is constitutionally protected. Orlando theoretically requires a permit, insurance, and a fee for a protest, but this requirement has been held unconstitutional twice before by controlling authorities in the jurisdiction. See Central Florida Nuclear Freeze Campaign v. Walsh; also see Forsyth Co. v. Nationalist Movement. The ACLU of Florida should be able to help you out if you have any difficulties. That said, you need to at least submit the permit. Here is where it can be found. http://www.cityoforlando.net/police/administration/permits_outdoor_public_assembly.htm
3) Make plans to circulate a petition to sever APAGS from the APA. I think there is an argument that this should happen regardless of the APA's response to the internship crisis. The APA voting members are practicing psychologists and psych grad schools. Thus, their interests may not align with those of students.
4) Find out which states' licensing acts are coming up for renewal, and contact legislators in those states to express your concerns about the internship imbalance. At the very least, I think it would make sense to change the statutory language from one that recognizes only APA accreditation as prima facie proof of the adequacy of an internship to language that recognizes "APA accreditation or accreditation by a similar professional organization." This opens up the door to competition from organizations like APS. If APA won't fix the problem, maybe someone else will.

5) Make shirts, wear them, and sit together during the keynote speech. Numbers alone can be threatening if they are large enough.
 
Also, I am not a member of APA, and I refuse to join because of ethical problems I have with the organization, but I will help in any other way I can. If you want to start fundraising for a war chest, I'll kick in the first $50.
 
psychgeek said:
Also, I am not a member of APA, and I refuse to join because of ethical problems I have with the organization, but I will help in any other way I can. If you want to start fundraising for a war chest, I'll kick in the first $50.
Click to expand...
I too am not a member of APA and I also think that fund raising would be a good idea. Imagine if each person who signed the petition donated 5 bucks, that is a pretty damn good start.

However, if one were to do this I would like to see an open and organized group of people. For example, I feel that one person has been the engine with this petition. I have even seen it mentioned in a listserv that people are not sure who started this petition but they like it. If you want real change you need to get organized.

Get a website, make a committee, put your names on there so everyone knows who we are dealing with it. I bet some big names will join your association. Have meetings and agendas (even online). If that were to happen I think you would get the backing of a lot of other associations. Then start fund raising (http://www.kickstarter.com/).

Once you have the manpower and some capital start a campaign. For example, have members forgo paying their dues to the APA for a year (hit them where it hurts). Or organize a large protest outside the convention where you have the cash to pay for the permits, shirts, and other incidentals.

The APA does not want to reduce the amount of students attempting to be clinical psychologists. They want as many people in their guild as possible, even if they are unemployed or underemployed. If you want to change them you are going to have to do more than have a petition online.
 
DynamicDidactic said:
I too am not a member of APA and I also think that fund raising would be a good idea. Imagine if each person who signed the petition donated 5 bucks, that is a pretty damn good start.

However, if one were to do this I would like to see an open and organized group of people. For example, I feel that one person has been the engine with this petition. I have even seen it mentioned in a listserv that people are not sure who started this petition but they like it. If you want real change you need to get organized.

Get a website, make a committee, put your names on there so everyone knows who we are dealing with it. I bet some big names will join your association. Have meetings and agendas (even online). If that were to happen I think you would get the backing of a lot of other associations. Then start fund raising (http://www.kickstarter.com/).

Once you have the manpower and some capital start a campaign. For example, have members forgo paying their dues to the APA for a year (hit them where it hurts). Or organize a large protest outside the convention where you have the cash to pay for the permits, shirts, and other incidentals.

The APA does not want to reduce the amount of students attempting to be clinical psychologists. They want as many people in their guild as possible, even if they are unemployed or underemployed. If you want to change them you are going to have to do more than have a petition online.
Click to expand...

Working on all this now :) The strategic plan, vision, and mission are drafted and I'll put them up soon. We will shortly be forming working groups to tackle some specific tasks. The plan all along has extended beyond the petition, but that was necessary to drum support and make people feel like they are not alone in their concerns (which was the sense I got reading the APPIC free responses).

The shirts thing is harder. Buttons are easy, I can just order 500 and give them away (not expensive, I priced it out). Shirts, I'd need a web site where I could make a design, put it online, and people can order them themselves. I looked but couldn't find that--anyone know of one?

psychgeek said:
Also, I am not a member of APA, and I refuse to join because of ethical problems I have with the organization, but I will help in any other way I can. If you want to start fundraising for a war chest, I'll kick in the first $50.
Click to expand...

OK. I'm looking into this now.

psychgeek said:
This is getting exciting. I am reminded of my black bandanna wearing misspent youth.

Running for office is a great idea, but don't lose the advantage of diversity of tactics by concentrating too much on working within the system to promote change. Students have asked nicely for the APA to serve their interests for too long. Asking nicely once more is not going to have an effect unless it is paired with the threat of disrupting the organization as a whole.

Although the facts are not completely analogous, I am reminded of an article I read about the NY rent strikes of 1963-64 written by Piven and Cloward (it is published in the New Republic in 1967 if you are interested in reading it yourself). They analyze why the 63 strikes had so little effect while the 1890s strikes were so successful. Their basic (highly over-simplified) conclusion is that the organizers in 63 were too concerned about playing by the rules, and an antisystemic movement must threaten to break the rules in order to work.

Obviously I am not advocating breaking the ethical rules of the profession or even the rules of the convention itself. When I say "break the rules" I mean that it should be clear that students are no longer willing to respect the norms that have held them powerless within the APA if the APA will not use its power to further the interests of its student members.

In that vein, here are a few other ideas you might consider in addition to the ones already in the works

1) Rent an "Occupy" booth at the APA convention - the cheapest booths are about $1000.00, and they probably will reject your booth anyway as a violation of their content guidelines. This doesn't matter. The $1000 can be used in other ways once the booth is rejected, and the rejection of the booth itself is a concrete example of how the valid concerns of intern applicants are secondary to APA's mission to protect the interests of other stakeholders. If it is rejected, there will be a glaring contrast between this censorship and Argosy's sponsorship of the last convention.
2) Organize a picket line outside of the APA convention site - The Hilton Orlando Hotel is located off of a public street. Thus, your right to protest on the sidewalk in front of it is constitutionally protected. Orlando theoretically requires a permit, insurance, and a fee for a protest, but this requirement has been held unconstitutional twice before by controlling authorities in the jurisdiction. See Central Florida Nuclear Freeze Campaign v. Walsh; also see Forsyth Co. v. Nationalist Movement. The ACLU of Florida should be able to help you out if you have any difficulties. That said, you need to at least submit the permit. Here is where it can be found. http://www.cityoforlando.net/police/administration/permits_outdoor_public_assembly.htm
3) Make plans to circulate a petition to sever APAGS from the APA. I think there is an argument that this should happen regardless of the APA's response to the internship crisis. The APA voting members are practicing psychologists and psych grad schools. Thus, their interests may not align with those of students.
4) Find out which states' licensing acts are coming up for renewal, and contact legislators in those states to express your concerns about the internship imbalance. At the very least, I think it would make sense to change the statutory language from one that recognizes only APA accreditation as prima facie proof of the adequacy of an internship to language that recognizes "APA accreditation or accreditation by a similar professional organization." This opens up the door to competition from organizations like APS. If APA won't fix the problem, maybe someone else will.

5) Make shirts, wear them, and sit together during the keynote speech. Numbers alone can be threatening if they are large enough.
Click to expand...

1. I think the booth deadline is passed (I think it passed before I even started the petition). We can do non-booth stuff (one of the two first Working Groups will be a convention planning group). As I figure out fundraising we'll put in for a booth for next year.
2. All of that will happen. :) Again, Occupy's Convention Working Group will figure out logistics and planning. Once the program book is out we can make some specific plans for the bigger convention events, and we can find out what hotel APA governance is booked in to.
3. Harder. I think APAGS actively tries to be more ingrained into APA governance. Having students be on council is valuable. APAGS can be important for working within the system, while organizations like this can work from outside.
4. Good idea. Do you know where that info is located? Sounds like a good Working Group/Committee goal.
5. Shirts--yeah, again, I want this but I need a storefront that does this independently. Anywhere online where I can make a shirt, it gets printed by that company, and people can order it? That must exist.
 
O Gurl said:
Thank you for all of your hard work, MCParent. PM me if there is anything I can do to help. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks :) As I've mentioned before, getting flak from other students (or the NCSPP rep, or the past-chair of APAGS...) for trying to engage in advocacy for students and the profession can suck. So, I appreciate support. :) Shortly on the social media group we'll be setting up the first two working groups--convention activities and undergraduate education (upon reflection, I realized, screw waiting for anyone to fix C-20 reporting [although they should]. We can generate a presentation that undergrads can download, that can be integrated into a class, or that can be given by a grad student, on understanding graduate school, reading C-20 data and the APPIC report, etc.). So, you can put in to be on either of those committee when the announcement comes up (which will happen right after the Vision and Mission are finalized).
 
MCParent said:
I think a great many students are suffering in silence, believing in the need for change to the system in the direction of better controlling numbers of applicants but feeling like they don’t have much influence over policy.
Click to expand...

You are not hitting on the reality of the situation. Universities want to make money and capitalize on a depressed economy. There is a push from the majority of universities to accept more students in order to increase graduate enrollment numbers due to the spiraling economy/more and more people going back to get advanced degrees. More numbers equal less opportunity to be matched.

Blame the business models of universities, and specifically the graduate schools, if you are going to blame anyone. It's called capitalism.
 
erg923 said:
Um, we are. Did you even read the petition? Who did you think we were faulting?
Click to expand...

Exactly! There is nothing you are going to be able to do about it. Money talks and people are going to continue being naive enough to think an advanced degree automatically equals a job.

Why do you think tuition keeps getting raised every year across the country while universities benefit from record numbers every year?
 
minorityreport said:
Exactly! There is nothing you are going to be able to do about it. Money talks and people are going to continue being naive enough to think an advanced degree automatically equals a job.

Why do you think tuition keeps getting raised every year across the country while universities benefit from record numbers every year?
Click to expand...

You might wanna reread the petition cause it doesnt really sound like you read it.

Again, the end goal is to, ultimately, have the APA revoke accreditation from these places for that very reason. For profit schools will continue to do what they do, but so long as we dont give them the ok to do it (accreditation), then they cant put the numbers they do now into the match every year.
 
erg923 said:
You might wanna reread the petition cause it doesnt really sound like you read it.

Again, the end goal is to, ultimately, have the APA revoke accreditation from these places for that very reason. For profit schools will continue to do what they do, but so long as we dont give them the ok to do it (accreditation), then they cant put the numbers they do now into the match every year.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Throwing our hands up and saying there's nothing we can do about it because it's capitalism at work is both inaccurate (many other healthcare-related disciplines have controlled it, at least better than us) and counterproductive. We owe it to ourselves and the field as a whole to enact a minimal training standard while simultaneously ensuring that we aren't churning out more graduates than the market can (or will) bear.

We can't stop people from wanting to get an advanced degree (whether or not they actually should); however, we certainly can establish and enforce standards that will at least attempt to prevent the proliferation of subpar admissions and training criteria.
 
Last edited:
Is the Facebook group set to private? I cannot see the page without an account and cannot find it through google. It might be more effective if others in the field who are not on facebook could view it as well.
 
DynamicDidactic said:
Is the Facebook group set to private? I cannot see the page without an account and cannot find it through google. It might be more effective if others in the field who are not on facebook could view it as well.
Click to expand...

Honestly, FB changes its settings so much that I have no idea what the group settings are when it changes. I thought you should be able to see it. I'll try to fix it.
 
Hearing from multiple people online who didn't match this morning. This process makes me so, so mad. No one can really understand until they've gone through it.
 
I know buried somewhere in this thread was a discussion regarding allowing APA and APPIC internships to be unfunded to increase the number of positions. I came across this Colbert Report, and although he wasn't specifically referring to psych internships, I think his points can be well taken. Unfortunately the edited clip doesn't work, but if you fast forward to about 14 minutes, that is where the interview is.

http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/tue-february-28-2012-ross-eisenbrey
 
When reviewing an article from 2000 in the Monitor (http://www.apa.org/monitor/may00/postdoc.aspx) I see the author talks about problems relating to post docs. I wonder what happened to this committee and why nothing like it seems to be present for internships? Was it productive? Is it still around? Googling the committee name, I got two links to 2001 reports from CUDCP that it exists, and nothing much at APA.


"A new initiative will help APA do just that. In February, APA's Council of Representatives voted almost unanimously to earmark $98,200 to create and fund a Commission on Education and Training Leading to Licensure in Psychology. Chaired by APA President-elect Norine G. Johnson, PhD, the commission has been asked to examine and make recommendations regarding:
Education, training, examination and supervision requirements leading to licensure.
Contents of education and training in relation to quality and relevance to the changing marketplace and emerging specialties.
Issues of supply and demand at various steps in the sequence of training and practice."
 
In case you haven't looked recently, the petition is up to almost 1500 signatures. Nice work!

I also wanted to mention a possible issue with the petition website (I haven't read through this thread so maybe it's been mentioned before). Is it possible for people to remove their signatures after signing? I noticed that my signature/comment is not at the same numbered position now as it was when I first signed. I signed early on and my signature is now at a numbered spot 5 lower than it was when I signed. At that time I had read through all the previous posts, and none would have justified using that "flag" option. Just fyi...
 
Dewe said:
In case you haven't looked recently, the petition is up to almost 1500 signatures. Nice work!

I also wanted to mention a possible issue with the petition website (I haven't read through this thread so maybe it's been mentioned before). Is it possible for people to remove their signatures after signing? I noticed that my signature/comment is not at the same numbered position now as it was when I first signed. I signed early on and my signature is now at a numbered spot 5 lower than it was when I signed. At that time I had read through all the previous posts, and none would have justified using that "flag" option. Just fyi...
Click to expand...

There are duplicates that I remove sometimes, probably from people double clicking the button. There were a few weird automated signatures I removed too.
 
moneyphd said:
When reviewing an article from 2000 in the Monitor (http://www.apa.org/monitor/may00/postdoc.aspx) I see the author talks about problems relating to post docs. I wonder what happened to this committee and why nothing like it seems to be present for internships? Was it productive? Is it still around? Googling the committee name, I got two links to 2001 reports from CUDCP that it exists, and nothing much at APA.


"A new initiative will help APA do just that. In February, APA's Council of Representatives voted almost unanimously to earmark $98,200 to create and fund a Commission on Education and Training Leading to Licensure in Psychology. Chaired by APA President-elect Norine G. Johnson, PhD, the commission has been asked to examine and make recommendations regarding:
Education, training, examination and supervision requirements leading to licensure.
Contents of education and training in relation to quality and relevance to the changing marketplace and emerging specialties.
Issues of supply and demand at various steps in the sequence of training and practice."
Click to expand...

I've never heard of it. It probably produced about as much as most apa committees do; some statement that there is a problem and vague suggestions without teeth. That organizational culture needs to change.
 
Show me an APA that's avoiding capping class sizes and I'll show you an APA reluctant to come down on potential member-mills. Huge class sizes of clinically-oriented professionals? Great for APA's bottom line.
 
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